Decisive Games NewD3 Mafia (GAME OVER!)

[fontisian]

^
I can't say I really trust fonti at all, but Swiss is reading super scummy in this exchange.

Will think on this. I'll be back closer to deadline.

Laser exploring the Swiss yeet as an option as somi's getting run up. Not a good look.

For the record, Swiss I meant I say I might need to switch to Maven or /Somi/ by deadline to get a yeet, not you. I couldn't switch to you because I was already on you.

 

[fontisian]

My Day 1 "let's kill this guy" accuracy is about 50% on this site. Across two games. Heh.

But seriously, we should kill him, look at how's he reacting to me.

This was actually not a real read, it was a reiteration of Laser's point because I wanted to see if anyone would jump on it and how Swiss would react. I thought Swiss' initial reaction to me was strange but not necessarily scum indicative.

 

[fontisian]

Maven's claim, if true, means we are in one of these two worlds:

• B1: Mafia Goon, Mafia Rolecop vs. Town Tracker, Town Friendly Neighbor, 5x Town Vanilla
• B2: Mafia Goon, Mafia Rolecop vs. Town Jailkeeper, Town Friendly Neighbor, 5x Town Vanilla

If you are a role who knows it is not one of these two worlds (Mason, Cop or Doctor), consider claiming, either Today or Tomorrow.

If Maven is a wolf, I think the odds of Swiss being a wolf with him are high.

I pursued the Maven line of questioning with Swiss because I thought if Maven happened to be a wolf, then there was a decent chance Swiss was his partner trying to set him up for a claim other people would believe.

 

[fontisian]

No.

When you get the time please talk about why you aren't intersted in Swiss.

Eido asks to switch to Bessie instead of Somi, I immediately shut that down.

 

[fontisian]

Sure, as noted in the case I think he asked some towny thing. If his Gorf waffling is real, that's kind of towny. It's maybe towny to keep pushing for a pr claim, though bad for the game. Hard to balance that against scum!Swiss just wanting to get a role out.

I was also happy to chat about why Swiss might be town as somi was getting run up.

 

[fontisian]

First of all, I’m very disappointed the amount of content in this game has almost doubled while I was at work. It was right at the level I enjoy up until now.


I disagree but I don’t want to rehash that argument right now. +0



Can you link to the Gorf post? Because I think you may have it backwards, I agreed with Gorf twice in #267 that Eido should try doing his reads using the content in this game, not meta. The points were because he pointed this out. +0

And just because you do not understand every one of my +/- doesn’t mean it’s not a valid way for me to keep track of where my head is at. -1

I don’t agree with your interpretation but thank you for answering. +0


Hahaha, your yeet list is OMGUS, lurker, lurker. -1


Why don’t you read some old games, I’ve posted links to and discussed at least 5. Interesting that you use meta from an old game to support your Maven vote, but you decide that instead of reading my old games you’re instead asking Laser to feed you a read. I wonder why. Not really that's sarcasm. -1


Woof? +0


I don’t share this interpretation. Boo. -1
I like the rest of your post. +2


I think that using meta to read somitomi isn’t going to work. His content is pretty consistent as any alignment. And by that I mean he can be townie and/or scummy as either alignment, and it’s not something he is trying to do, he just is, if you can understand what I’m trying to explain. +0


@Eido What makes you think this??


Just because I am townreading someone doesn’t necessarily mean I believe they are correct. I believe they are town. I think this is a very odd observation for you to make. -1


I have attempted to give Eido advise, I advised him to quit trying to use meta to make his reads and concentrate on the content in this game. He is still ignoring my advice. You’re not going to meta read an experienced player by using meta from one previous game. +0
And I explained in my first post how the numbers would be skewed and why. +0


My logic makes perfect sense to me, and I have explained my reads and have shown my work. And I’m secretly wondering if you googled “how to trigger an INTJ”. +0

He's not making reads. He’s voting for someone and looking for justification using a meta read from Apex Mafia, not using the content from this game. -1


Re #395, fonti I'm still digesting your Swiss case and do not want to hold this post until I think it through but wanted to award a point for your effort. +1

Page 11: Ugh. For so many reasons.

Page 12: No comment.



Isolated content / overall vibe
Eido -21-2 => -23 / -3
Fontisian -7-1 +> -8 / -2
Gorf +6 / +1
LaserGuy +1+1 => 2 / +1
Maven89 +1 / -1
Sabrar +5 / +2
Somitomi -2+0 +> -2 / +0
Swiss +2-1 => +1 / +0
Wam -2 / +0


Woof
bessie
Maven89
Sabrar
Gorf
LaserGuy
Swiss
Wam
somitomi
fontisian
Eido
Grr


I will not yeet: Sabrar, Gorf, Maven89
I would not like to yeet: somitomi, Wam, LaserGuy, Swiss
I am ambivalent about yeeting:
I would consider yeeting: fonti
I would like to yeet: Eido

This is probably the point where scum!Bessie sees Somi's death coming and at least drops him to "I am ambivalent about yeeting." But this is town!Bessie, and she only wants to yeet her scumreads, damn anything else.

 

[fontisian]

Somi.

In a "who am I most likely to misread" sense, maybe Laser or Wam.

Ay.

 

[fontisian]

I'm here if you need more votes not sure we have the time and the resources though.

Above looks like scum trying to distance from a town elimination.

Kind of like this from Wam, it's the opposite of tmi, since he's calling me out in the world where somi flips town. Think it indicates that he was just generally suspicious of me, probably a town thing.

 

[fontisian]

Crap.
I'm kind of in the same boat though, Swiss's return is giving me mixed signals. His tone feels genuine, but gettin Maven to claim while thinking he could be a PR is kind of scummy. I know it's pretty late for this, but I do think we should be considering how much information the flip gives town, this is why I was against pushing Maven off today.

This doesn't feel like a post about a partner.

 

[fontisian]

I'm fine seeing a flip.

Laser doesn't really do anything at eod. I think that's actually maybe town indicative? Like, he wants the yeet on me and refuses to back down. Iirc, when he did that as town against Xivii he was bigger on stating that Xivii is always a wolf and that he refused to vote a townread, even to save himself. Similar ish situation, but different energy, basically.

 

[fontisian]

Compare to Bessie, who kept repeating that the team was me/Eido until the end. (Bessie town, etc.)

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT v3.0

Fontisian (1): Wam

Not Voting (4): Swiss, Laserguy, Fontisian, Bessie

With 5 players remaining it takes 3 votes to eliminate!

 

[bessie]

Will Bessie or Laser finally add something to the game, or continue to lurk?

Ah. I run across this in every game. Please provide me with the standard unit of measurement you are using to define acceptable content level.

Because anyone can

 

[bessie]

spam the thread

 

[bessie]

with multiple

 

[bessie]

low utility posts

 

[bessie]

to appear as if

 

[bessie]

they are contributing

 

[bessie]

more than they are.

 

[bessie]

bessie , do you have Stellaris mafia in your archive by any chance?

Yes let me dig it out and see if I’ve completed putting all the pages together.

BESSSIIEEEEE WHERE ARE YOUUUUUU

The same place I am every day this game, and in pretty much every game I play. I don’t play during working hours for reasons, one of which is that I’m working, another is the security software on the work computers. And I don’t play on my phone for reasons. One reason is if I’m working see above, another reason is I have a great deal of trouble typing on a phone so I rarely do; the most I will do on my phone is short posts or vote if it is near deadline.

Older pic but mostly the same, these are my real nails. I hit the wrong letters on my phone a lot.

Getting back to this:

Potentially, sure. Or he's town and I didn't fit his expectations for his expectations for what I'd do as scum. Uh, I'm not a huge fan of it, because of the Apex scumgame he linked you to, where I came into the game after misyeeting the Xivii/Bessie and iirc tried to work with Boom and Laser, and acted like I thought they might be town, and that got them on my side (along with some emotional stuff). So I expect Laser to know scum!me doesn't usually take the obvious path, that I try to frustrate expectations, and I'd expect him to be more skeptical here.

Hmm, it was Things I like Mafia, and I believe you were integral in than lynch, you did not come in after. You did replace in, but with plenty of time for both Xivii and me to have solid scum reads on you.

For anyone interested, you can read my final reads list in preparation for my misyeet, and fonti’s reaction starting here .

*Maven not dying N1 is an experienced scum shooter imo. Less likely to be Wam.

Wam is an experienced player, and quite good as scum. You can see it for yourself if I can get Stellaris Mafia posted for LaserGuy.

Wam posts a day or so ago about being surprised he's alive and not scumread or some such.

If anyone finds it please quote it

Was this the post of which you are thinking #620 ? Wam expresses mild surprise he wasn't the NK target.

Hey bessie when both of you scumreads flip town, what are you going to do?

Reevaluate. I’m an egotistical passive-aggressive nitpicky tunneler, but I know I’m not always right. However, I often need to be proven wrong.

Sabrar list, again looks bad for Laser and Wam.

I kinda hate it when people do this out of context. Sabrar is an excellent player, yes. But as a townie that didn’t have an opportunity to use his power, he didn’t know anything more than the rest of us on D1. He knew even less than we do now. And he was wrong on his top three scum picks in that list. So how does this list look bad for LaserGuy and Wam??

Gorf list, looks bad for Wam.

How so?? Gorf had correctly picked somitomi as scum, but he has Eido and Maven on the same line as Wam.

The Eido read, while wrong, makes a lot of sense from Bessie's pov. I believe that she believes it.

Somi read noted to keep track of how Somi is being viewed in general at this point. I don't think Bessie defends a teammate like this, but I do not have the experience with her to back that up.

My read of Eido was correct in that he had read the power wolfing article, which he admitted to here , and therefore was probably influenced by it as it showed in his play.


For somitomi, I know that he has been very busy IRL. And as I have said here , the feel of his content very consistent as any alignment.

 

[fontisian]

Yes let me dig it out and see if I’ve completed putting all the pages together.


The same place I am every day this game, and in pretty much every game I play. I don’t play during working hours for reasons, one of which is that I’m working, another is the security software on the work computers. And I don’t play on my phone for reasons. One reason is if I’m working see above, another reason is I have a great deal of trouble typing on a phone so I rarely do; the most I will do on my phone is short posts or vote if it is near deadline.

Older pic but mostly the same, these are my real nails. I hit the wrong letters on my phone a lot.
View attachment 313244



1. Hmm, it was Things I like Mafia, and I believe you were integral in than lynch, you did not come in after. You did replace in, but with plenty of time for both Xivii and me to have solid scum reads on you.

For anyone interested, you can read my final reads list in preparation for my misyeet, and fonti’s reaction starting here .


Wam is an experienced player, and quite good as scum. You can see it for yourself if I can get Stellaris Mafia posted for LaserGuy.


Was this the post of which you are thinking #620 ? Wam expresses mild surprise he wasn't the NK target.


Reevaluate. I’m an egotistical passive-aggressive nitpicky tunneler, but I know I’m not always right. However, I often need to be proven wrong.


2. I kinda hate it when people do this out of context. Sabrar is an excellent player, yes. But as a townie that didn’t have an opportunity to use his power, he didn’t know anything more than the rest of us on D1. He knew even less than we do now. And he was wrong on his top three scum picks in that list. So how does this list look bad for LaserGuy and Wam??


3. How so?? Gorf had correctly picked somitomi as scum, but he has Eido and Maven on the same line as Wam.


4. My read of Eido was correct in that he had read the power wolfing article, which he admitted to here , and therefore was probably influenced by it as it showed in his play.


For somitomi, I know that he has been very busy IRL. And as I have said here , the feel of his content very consistent as any alignment.

1. I'm talking about how I approach the next Day after getting you/Xivii yeeted, not saying I replaced in then.
2. The context is that the scumteam knew there was either a town tracker or town jailkeeper, so they are incentived to shoot either prs or the people that are scumreading them (and therefore more likely to track or jail them). Eido and I talked about this Yesterday. That's why the eod readlists of Gorf and Sabrar matter. Scum in general are also just more likely to shoot people who they think will catch them and who are being townread, so their readlists are useful from that point of view as well.
3. See 2.
4. Yeah, I agree.

 

[fontisian]

One thing I'll do in harder games is think "Well, if every dead town were currently alive, where would they be voting?" and use that to shape my reads. It's usually somewhat successful, because on average the wisdom of a town is decent, especially once you've eliminated some of the people more likely to be misyeeted. That's also a way Gorf and Sabrar's reads factor in (along with Eido and Maven, though by their positions, Eido being under pressure and Maven not really being involved, those two are less likely on average to have been correct).

 

[bessie]

bessie , do you have Stellaris mafia in your archive by any chance?

I have most of it. Sadly, much of Page 11 is lost in Time.

Stellaris Mafia (xkcd)

Scum team is me, Wam, freezeblade. I was sick and had to replace out, Maven89 replaced me, for which I was very grateful.

 

[LaserGuy]

Wam:

Wam is a bit more jokey this game. TIL he was pretty serious early. Ditto for Apex though he entered late so this is more understandable. Glancing at Stellaris (thanks bessie!), his intro there was super serious so I'll mark this as a point in his favour.

His early play seems fairly standard Wam. Wam does tend to tunnel early as Town (see: Apex), so his tunnel on Eido is well within his meta. I can't remember if he tunnels as scum as well. The early reads in #117 seem very premature considering the content in game. Pings vaguely townie. Wam is invested in the game. Noting somi's position at the bottom of the nulls.

Wam's push on somi starts earlier than I had remembered, back in #287. Somi posts his reads shortly after (#297). The fact that Wam does not even acknowledge somi's reads is interesting, but I can find reasons for both Town or scum Wam to do it. Wam does like to bus as scum, so it's possible that this push was planned with the expectation that it would probably go nowhere if somi was able to put out some content. On the other hand, the fact that Wam wasn't certain he would be around at deadline to change his vote (#332) makes this a pretty risky play. Though at the time wam left (#398) this did not seem a particularly likely wagon (#377) and when he returned (#516) somi's yeet was fairly inevitable (#490).

I can see a scenario where this is a bus, but it is a fairly audacious plan considering somi's fairly unstable position and Wam's unavailability for much of the EoD period. Not impossible--Wam does like to take risks--but feels low probability under the circumstances.

Posts like #620 and #724 feel genuine. #732 as well. Wam's tunnel lock on fonti also strikes me as townie.

Probably I'm overthinking things and this is just Town!Wam.

 

[LaserGuy]

No it's fine I think she's town too, but you saying that reminded me of something you said before

What was it that this reminded you of?

Laser have you ever had an opinion on Bessie that isn't 'so her activity is XXX'

In terms of alignment? I had some reservations about her early in the game because the point system was novel for her. Beyond a certain point, I was happy locking her as Town and moving on. I did pretty much the same thing in Wam's Simple, if you'll recall.

LaserGuy you described Wam's Eido tunnel as town thing from him. Can you go into more detail on that?

My memory is that Wam tends to tunnel a lot as Town (e.g. vs. you in Apex) and is quite sticky with his reads. I'm still skimming through Stellaris (thanks bessie!) and it looks like Wam also tunnels as mafia, so this may be a null tell.

Another question for Laser:

Given that I was right to want to yeet in the two lowest hanging fruit players, how does this read change?

I will come back to this when I do my reread of you. Hopefully tomorrow.

The somi read was likely written after the Maven, then the list was rearranged to be in town to scum order. The comparison to Maven and defense of Somi isn't great, but isn't damning. The read on me isn't as solid as I remembered. I think I was moving town towards a solve (i.e. trying to get Bessie to see Eido as town just before this), but Laser doens't note any of it. His not understanding why my Eido read was dropping as Eido wasn't doing anything could just come from a headspace where he's locked in on Eido being town, so he doesn't get why town!me wouldn't be certain, but that doesn't fit with him being willing to yeet Eido Yesterday.

Yes, I normally write my reads roughly in slot order and then rearrange to in order of Town/scum after.

I re-evaluated Eido based on the EoD and the flip (e.g. #655). Regardless how confidently I may express my reads, they are all subject to change and re-evaluation. I have no problem flipping a lockTown read to a scum read or vice versa... I don't really care about that sort of consistency.

 

[Swiss]

What was it that this reminded you of?

I just want to acknowledge the time and effort bessie put into making this point. Also, bessie is Town.

I hate this post

 

[Swiss]

And Jesus Christ Bessie you almost poked my eye out with those nails

 

[Swiss]

I don't actually think this is scummy from Wam (I know Swiss did). I think he just assumes people are going to scumread him, regardless of his alignment.

Did I? I called him town in the next post.

Doesnt matter either way

 

[Swiss]

Laser's still focused on me as we're closing in on deadline, that's not really unexpected for town!him. I don't the repeat of "she's a very strong town player and a very strong wolf," it seems to come up in a lot of his posts and it's not really saying anything, it's just undermining me. Iirc, Wam communicated basically the same thing Day 2 but his approach felt cleaner.

+ bolded

 

[Swiss]

Eido asks to switch to Bessie instead of Somi, I immediately shut that down.

But you're still open to swapping off Somi, so this isn't truthful.

 

[Swiss]

I was also happy to chat about why Swiss might be town as somi was getting run up.

That's all it is, chat.

Tryign to take too much credit here.

And why the effort to prove yourself as town as opposed to scumhunt? What's your priority?

I liked you last night (my time), posting and quoting important bits felt genuine - this feels like trying to solidify yourself as town

 

[Swiss]

Was this the post of which you are thinking #620 ? Wam expresses mild surprise he wasn't the NK target.

bingo, ta

Reevaluate. I’m an egotistical passive-aggressive nitpicky tunneler, but I know I’m not always right. However, I often need to be proven wrong.

Well the Eido flip was fairly conclusive. So re evaluate

I kinda hate it when people do this out of context. Sabrar is an excellent player, yes. But as a townie that didn’t have an opportunity to use his power, he didn’t know anything more than the rest of us on D1. He knew even less than we do now. And he was wrong on his top three scum picks in that list. So how does this list look bad for LaserGuy and Wam??

NK analysis

My read of Eido was correct in that he had read the power wolfing article, which he admitted to here , and therefore was probably influenced by it as it showed in his play.

Errr, that...nvm

For somitomi, I know that he has been very busy IRL. And as I have said here , the feel of his content very consistent as any alignment.

 

[Swiss]

Wam:

Wam is a bit more jokey this game. TIL he was pretty serious early. Ditto for Apex though he entered late so this is more understandable. Glancing at Stellaris (thanks bessie!), his intro there was super serious so I'll mark this as a point in his favour.

His early play seems fairly standard Wam. Wam does tend to tunnel early as Town (see: Apex), so his tunnel on Eido is well within his meta. I can't remember if he tunnels as scum as well. The early reads in #117 seem very premature considering the content in game. Pings vaguely townie. Wam is invested in the game. Noting somi's position at the bottom of the nulls.

Wam's push on somi starts earlier than I had remembered, back in #287. Somi posts his reads shortly after (#297). The fact that Wam does not even acknowledge somi's reads is interesting, but I can find reasons for both Town or scum Wam to do it. Wam does like to bus as scum, so it's possible that this push was planned with the expectation that it would probably go nowhere if somi was able to put out some content. On the other hand, the fact that Wam wasn't certain he would be around at deadline to change his vote (#332) makes this a pretty risky play. Though at the time wam left (#398) this did not seem a particularly likely wagon (#377) and when he returned (#516) somi's yeet was fairly inevitable (#490).

I can see a scenario where this is a bus, but it is a fairly audacious plan considering somi's fairly unstable position and Wam's unavailability for much of the EoD period. Not impossible--Wam does like to take risks--but feels low probability under the circumstances.

Posts like #620 and #724 feel genuine. #732 as well. Wam's tunnel lock on fonti also strikes me as townie.

Probably I'm overthinking things and this is just Town!Wam.

I just amazes me that I can push Laser for not really doing anything or taking firm stances - and he posts 500 words just to sit on the fence.

It's almost too scummy to be scummy.

 

[Swiss]

I have no problem flipping a lockTown read to a scum read or vice versa... I don't really care about that sort of consistency.

Green reads townie
Red reads scummy

Green is genuine, factual, simple - is what it is

Red is too much, too 'look I'm a townie for my willingness to flip'

 

[Swiss]

I look forward to content from Wam
I look forward to Bessie's, Lasers' top 2 scum picks

 

[Swiss]

Did noone read my #710 thru #720

 

[Swiss]

Font when you said Eido was a slam dunk case did you genuinely think no need look beyond him - or was it sales rhetoric to get people to vote your way

 

[Wam]

Right so I'm going to break my re-read into 3 sections which will take a while.

1) Why Font is scum
2) Re-read of Laser and Swiss
3) Why Bessie is town.

Starting section now.

 

[Wam]

Note on the post above, somewhere in there respond to all the questions that have come up!

So for font I'm going to start with some upfront assumptions/baseline that underpins the rest.

1) Font can produce good looking content as any alignment.
2) Font can achieve the tone they want in posts as any alignment.
3) Font is very good at convincing people to follow their vote as any alignment.

So based on the above, the only way to analyse font's play is to look at what is trying to be achieved. I have focused from when the lynch on Somi started.

Wam I'm looking at somi as the likely yeet, yeah. Maybe Maven, though he's had a bit of towny tone.

Because, uh, when in doubt, yeet a lurker.

The shroop thing is half a joke, half real. I'm leaning more towards Bessie being town now, though, so let's call it three quarters a joke.

The reason shroops catch partners is that scum are more likely to edit and overthink paragraphs about their scummates. And when they make a post and half a sentence in the middle is missing, that means they were writing the post out of order (unusual, outside of long quote walls) and struggling with that section. Tl:dr, i's an odds thing, not a guaranteed catch.

bessie , the reason I wasn't on board with Laser's engagement readon you wasn't that I doubted the validity of reading you off your interest in the game, but rather that you hadn't seemed that interested to me. Now you definitely do.

LaserGuy , fair, I forgot your Xivii tunnel in Apex. I was a bit concerned abouthiw you easily townread me there and aren't able to get there here, but looking over it, I was being more agressive there. I'm also conflating games I where I was reading along with games I was in, I think. Anyway, we're cool.

The post above followed immediately after my Somi's vote, here font throws some shade at somi then hedged it and then talks about other players.

Example:
I will not yeet: fonti, Gorf, Eido
I would not like to yeet: Swiss, Wam, Bessie
I am ambivalent about yeeting: Laser, Sabrar
I would consider yeeting: Maven, Somi
I would like to yeet:

I needed another category, so I added that in. Use it if you want.

would yeet somi or maven, no vote at this point though. Also I hadn't noticed until now how strong Font's eido town read was at the point.

Thank you for that, Bessie. I disagree on a number of things, but the effort you put is really appreciated.

A quick point regarding my post #94: It was actually an attempt to help Gorf, more than Eido, in an attempt to help him express his read more clearly and focus on the parts that were actually pinging him. It was also the basis for my initial townread on Gorf. There was some intention to help Eido, but only in a reducing confusing kind of way.

@somitomi, question for you. You said Wam was bumped to neutral, so the two below him (Gorf and Swiss) must be your scumreads. You're scumreading both of them for pushing on Eido. But Eido himself is only just above Wam in your readslist, so he's either a neutral read or a very weak townread. Can you explain why both of your scumreads are for them scumreading someone you're not even really townreading?

I'm going to be honest and think it maybe confirmation bias but this comes across as coaching. But irrespective it is yet another push on somi with no vote.

I am reluctant to yeet Maven while he's not around to claim. Will do it to avoid a no-yeet if necessary.

I would like @Sabrar and Swiss to talk about their Somi reads, maybe a grab a quote or two while doing it. I would like Swiss to note the posts he's talking about in general.

I believe Laser believes his case on me and have no interest in yeeting him.

Vote: Somitomi

@somitomi Now would be an excellent time to show up.

Finally a vote for somi, along with the underlined bit which to me seems to be setting up for backing off later if possible.

Looking at a towngame, now, can probably dismiss some of the point about not really townreading Eido but scumreading the people pushing for him.

Points in Somi's favor:
Here he's scumreading Heury alone for scumreading Tattertot for bad reason while he's also scumreading tattertot. He's also scumreading Swiss for his push on Sabrar while Sabrar is only his second weakest townread.

The bessie read and placement is also pretty similar to this game.

Points against Somi:
He spends a lot more time thinking about and fleshing out his scum and weak townreads here, mostly because he's looking for scum, not looking for town, and thus doesn't feel like he as concrete reasons to back up his townreads besides "not scummy."


In this game, Somi's townreads feel more fleshed out than his scumreads, so he's townhunting more than or as much as he's scumhunting. This could be scum indicative because it's easier to make townreads as scum (as you already know who the town are) than it is to fake scumreads. That said, he didn't give a lot of reasons for townreading people in his scum game. That's potentially because he was already under a lot of pressure there.

This was fairly inconclusive. Anyway.

So again hedging and its immediately followed by a vote for swiss from no where.

I also kind of like this from Somi.

So more backing off and talking about somi with no mention of why the swiss vote is "100% serious"

I will not yeet: Sabrar, Fontisian
I would not like to yeet: LaserGuy, bessie
I'm ambivalent about yeeting: wam, Eido, Maven,
I would consider yeeting:
I would like to yeet: Gorf, Swiss

Vote: Swiss


In my recollection you've always been the person to give new players advice in thread, especially if they were struggling and I don't see much of that now. Instead, Eido finds himself under the scrutiny of a bessie tunnel in addition to all the other eyes already on him.
And yeah, I extrapolated from the numbers you provided (and accurately it seems), because sans analysis, they were the best indication of your opinion available.

I'm scumreading Gorf and Swiss for focusing so much of their attention on one person, not for scumreading one of my townreads (although admittedly those reads hinge Eido being town). In general, my reads on D1 are decidedly not consistent insofar as I don't care much if my scumreads all scumread each other, because I don't expect most of it to be right. I just try to evaluate everyone individually and then sort them into a town-mafia gradient, because my reads aren't enough to clear anyone by association.

Somi going Swiss here makes swiss look good . Also maybe reading too much in but is there a hint of Somi being coached in the post above. Also circumstantial evidence that Font Somi are pushing the same agenda end of day 1.

The town are:
1. Bessie. Putting a ton of effort into the game, clearly trying to think through things. Don't agree with where she's poking around or all of her logic, but I think it makes sense to her.
2. Eido. This dude is trying so hard to figure out the scum of some of you guys are just steam rolling him. Look at his early posts. He's trying to figure out if scum are pushing him, he wants to understand people, he's making independent reads and he keeps trying. Leave him alone.
3. Laser. Town!Laser sees the weaker town (Eido in this game) getting ganged up on tries to protect him. His read of me is wrong, but it makes sense, and it fits with what he knows of my play. He pointed out that Swiss wasn't following up on his reads and trying to figure things out. His Bessie read is good, his Wam read is nuanced and paranoid and comes to a conclusion I agree with, his Gorf read is similar to my thought process when Gorf was moving away from Eido (he just didn't get the reasoning at the time), I think his somi read may also be good.
4. Gorf. Gorf is natural af. He believed his Eido push, and it developed as he was figuring out his own thoughts. His scum game was kind of **** tonally, and that's not eveident here. I've already talked about this a lot.
5. Wam. Remember that asking the next question thing? Wam keeps doing it. He keeps a lot of his progression to himself, but you can see the way it shifts and him looking for partners. This is town!Wam.

The probably town are:
6. Sabrar. He's in the background, yes. But his questions are nuanced and focused on getting useful information. He intercedes when he wants to figure things out or get a specific point across. He cared enough about the Eido addressing the thread thing to find examples from other games.
7. Somitomi. This is a feeling, sue me.

The scum are:
8. Maven. Eido is correct, he feels slimy. Him coming around Eido felt like an attempt to get ahead of the curve as the yeet pressure moved elsewhere not somthing he actually believed. His offer to replace out feels like a scum worried he's letting down his teammates.

And.
9. Swiss.

Stay tuned for a case.

Somi being a feeling when font has spent all the last bit of the threads talking about somi is weird.

Swiss, a Wolf? (Yeah, Probably)

In this post we will be looking at most of Swiss's content post by post, because there's not a lot of it. That's not scummy right off the bat, the game is slow and a lot of people haven't done much. Check the spoiler for details.

Spoiler

He starts off with a Wam push, that's fine. I dislike the general question asking if other people are picking up on Wam vibes, as it seems unhelpful to town!Swiss, who would want to see if anyone jumps on board with him or argues that Wam is town of their own volition.


Decent advise to Eido.


This question is obtuse. Eido wants more information than the first 20 posts of page one because he's trying to figure things out.


This is a bad question. Eido obviously had no idea wtf Gorf was talking about when he freaked out about a potential hammer. The idea wasn't impossible to Eido, it just seemed unlikely because he'd never seen it happen and he didn't think anyone (scum or town) would actually do it.


Eido wasn't asking to meta read people not in the game, he wanted to understand what a Day1 quickhammer felt like exactly so he could gauge the reactions to him in this game. He was not making it difficult for Gorf, and his persistence in asking read towny. Swiss's "looking correct" argument has some validity.


"He's not being honest"

What is this buzzwordy nonsense? I hate the wording in this whole post, feels very slimy towards Laser.


Second verse, same as the first.


Could Swiss get this impression? Maybe. It was like 50 posts in the game, what a thing to push on though. We all ask questions for the sake of questions at the beginning.


Gorf posts this, this finally helps me click on what Gorf is trying to do.


Swiss responds with this. He later claims this is because Gorf wasn't being as aggressive as he expects from town!Gorf, to which I say "what." This isn't Gorf bakcing down, this is him claims something people are using to townread Eido isn't actually alignment indicative and him explaining his vote more. This is further aggression from Gorf.


Numbers added by me, for convience.
1. This is a good read.
2. Hedgy. Whatever.
3. These questions are bad and Swiss repeatedly bringing them up when Eido says he is trying to get to everything feels performative.
4. (Look at me, I'm town.) Not a huge fan of him townleaning me off of me saying I'm town. Like, I am and it actually is a reason to townread me, but Swiss should know that.
5. Mmm, feels like him getting on the Eido is town, actually, wagon too late in the game. Following the thread consensus instead of trying to lead it anywhere.
6. The post from Eido literally explains his previous questions and yet felt like he had to reiterate them anyway. Very performative. There's also no analysis of what Eido is thinking here or an attempt to understand him, he just calls Eido's logic bad.
7. Where's the *ing thought here? He's thinks Eido is town, and what? Why does the thought terminate there? Eido is calling Wam, a person who previously pinged Swiss as scummy, opportunistic and Swiss's response is just to tell Eido he doesn't get to judge people? What in the *? How is town!Swiss not concerned about his scumread Wam using his push as a reason to vote a town?

Look at the readslist, he still thinks Wam is scummy. Why is this just a leftover read from early game instead of something Swiss was actually thinking about in the present?



"I'd be happy to [yeet]," he says, as he in unwilling to vote Gorf for pressure. This excuse of the case being flimsy is *, if he thinks Gorf is scum he should interact with him and flesh out the read, not sit back and do * all.


This is actually very good, and has a chance of helping Eido. It is everything Swiss's other questions lack.


This guy isn't even scumhunting and he has the audacity to complain that Eido is looking at the people who put pressure on. This attempt at shade is ****.

I'm not 100% on it being a scumthing, it goes against the overall thread flow, thought Bessie and Wam did just call Eido wolfy. Moving on.


What do you mean "which wagon," the only ****ing wagon.



...

He wants to know if Gorf is a wolf. You're scumreading gorf. *ing help him, holy *.

Note: This was just after Eido voted Maven, so if Maven is a wolf this could have been an attempt to discredit Eido overall.


Gorf question is fine, I don't think he did stick his neck out for Swiss, though I can see how Eido might have seen it that way.

"Are you going to answer my questions from before" is so useless. Link them or ask them again.


This is a good question.


1. This is fine, just a little late to the party.
2. How is all of Gorg's reasoning correct but Laser and me defending Eido also good? Does not compute.
3. Send the kettle to the pot.
4. Flip flopping is towny, but I can't to that townreading if no reasoning is given at point. It just ends up feeling fake or like Swiss accidentally liked my post or something, idk.
5. I don't see anything to like in Maven's 202, it's just an acknowledgement that people think Eido is town now and Bessie's posts were nitpicky. It's null at best.
6. "I'd [yeet] anyone," Swiss says again, refusing to vote or even push on his actual scumreads in Somi, me and Bessie. This readlist feels very weird. Why is Sabrar at the top, why is Eido so high when Swiss still seems to have some doubts, why is Wam that high? Why are Somi, me and Bessie even scumreads? Swiss says he wants pressure to happen but he's not doing any of it.


This is a post Swiss likes later, not sure why it stands out to him.

Then Swiss disappeared for a while.


1. Scummy how? Use words.
2. He was townreading Laser and scumreading me before this. Even if he ended up liking some of my content, why not talk to Laser about his read? Where's the followup?
3. Agrees that Eido is stiff. Says he might be Pr (to get him shot or something? I can't imagine why else town!Swiss would do this. Scum!Swiss does it because he people assume he wouldn't, I guess). I'm not sure why he was so certain on Eido being town earlier then, the stiffness was an ongoing problem.
4. This is fine, I think that post was kind of towny from Somi in retrospect.
5. Hate the "big brain" disclaimer. I've talked about this. I have no idea what post or posts he's talking about, and I looked.
6. Using Somi to push Bessie, maybe. Not sure why he likes this, Bessie being pedantic was common knowledge and didn't factor that much into her actual reads.
7. Wam isn't inactive, nor up to be yeeted. Idk what this is.


Reads are kind of boring, haven't changed much beyond liking me and Somi now. The total lack of scumreads sticks out, Swiss not come off as the kind of person who focused on towncores over scumhunting. I don't feel like he's trying to do anything really except produce some content since he hadn't in a while.



I dislike this exchange with Wam. Wam is primed to think other people see him as scum, it's not a sign he's scum. The "working hard to make me reconsider" feels over the top and performative, again.

Let's discuss my impression of Swiss. He seems:
1. Competent.
2. Jokey, likes to **** around to entertain himself and others.
3. Decent scum. He knows how to manipulate people and how to fake some town tells. Faking some logic and progressions would not be a problem for him.
4. Aggressive. If he gets a scumread and push it. He expects this same kind of aggression for Gorf.
5. He believes no one should be unyeetable Day 1, and if he's scumreading a stronger player he'll still push it.

Compare to what he's actually done over the course of the game. He seems:
1. Manipulative. He feels very aware of where the thread is moving and being on top of it.
2. Un-helpful. He nitpicks small things in Eido's posts, and asks questions that are busywork, very rarely insightful.
3. Stagnant. His Eido read changed and he claims his Gorf read is changing but that's about it. His Wam read is the same, after the beginning of the Day. His read on me is the same (big brain, but what if wolf?). His reasoning for the Gorf read seems to be the same (not aggressive enough). He likes Somi for disliking Bessie being pedantic, never mind that both and I pointed out the same thing first.
4. Consensusy. People start voting him? Better jump on lurker Maven. People pushing Eido? He'll contribute. People townreading Eido? Sure, he'll contribute to that too. But he doesn't start his own pushes or actually go for anything. He's just kind of here.
5. Non-paranoid. He says he is in some areas, sure, but he doesn't push it or talk it out, and the concern doesn't seem to last.
6. Wolf-wordy. This is a weird one. His language in a few areas feels off to me. Feels like wolves I've seen before. The initial vote on Eido, where he's talking to Laser about it, is one of those. Feels like he's trying to justify his position more than actually trying to get a wolf. The recent conversation with Wam was another. Feels like a spot where he thinks people would think town!him would be concerned, so he pretended to be concerned. This is a hard point to explain exactly.
7. Self-preservationy. He showed up just after I called him and wolf and voted my other wolfread. Could be he was lurking in the thread and didn't feel like he had to intervene because town!somi was getting yeeted. Vote on Maven feels vaguely bus-like.

Swiss case - Is reasonable for a day 1 case but as bessie proved, you play this game enough you can make a case on anyone.

My Day 1 "let's kill this guy" accuracy is about 50% on this site. Across two games. Heh.

But seriously, we should kill him, look at how's he reacting to me.

For reference this is 7.5 hours before deadline, still pushing hard on swiss.

We have enough people to swap to swiss.

Approx 1 hour before deadline, this is still pushing swiss.

That's right, the Swiss wagon is real. You too could be part of the Swiss yeet!

Offer only valid for the next 6 minutes. Wolf flip not guaranteed.

Towncred, get your towncred here!

We absolute do. We need three. We have Maven, Bessie and Laser here.

If Swiss flips town, it'll be easier to yeet me Tomorrow.

We also have Eido and Wam. Wow, five potential possible votes, when we only need three! What a deal!

Anyway.

Vote: Somitomi

Rip somi, see you on the other side.

All of Font's posts to deadline. Reading through they do seem serious about changing to swiss, then hammering at the end for towncred when it didn't work.

...

Seriously?

I was ****ing around and seeing what would happen. I didn't seriously think Swiss was going to get yeeted off me being like "Join the wagon of a lifetime!" three minutes to deadline.

It's obviously Eido:
1. He tried to make the Swiss wagon happen, despite him not actually thinking Swiss was scum.
2. He lacks the experience to realize it was too late in the Day, so when saw Sabrar's vote he panicked at the last second out of the hope he could save Somi.
3. When he voted Swiss, he specifically phrased it as "lets trust fonti." This is wolfy because:
3a. It's unlike any way he's treated me before, when he was town. Previously, he owned his decisions.
3b. It showed what he wanted. Eido desperately wanted you all to blindly trust my push and leave Somi.
4. Gorf and Sabrar both pushed Eido, and thought he was still likely scum at eod.
4a. They also both thought I was town.

Then plays oh I wasn't serious afterwards. I thought font was being serious at the time ( I had been awake for 10 minutes so my brain wasn't working). Also font could have caused even more chaos and meant we didn't lynch at all then played the same thing. Also this post is what I would expect scum font to do start of day 2, they know the pressure is coming based on the lynch so come out swinging on eido. Also no acknowledgement of how strong Font's eido read was day 1.

Some notes on somi/fonti up to end of page 10. My comments are in blue:

Spoiler

fonti throws somi into a scumteam with bessie based on a 'shroop'. This is never really followed up.



Says somi is null despite this.



somi doesn't ask what the shroop was or follow up in any way. Doesn't seem concerned.



fonti backpedals. The first of many.



This is fonti's strongest push vs. somi.



But not scum.



somi posts his reads just before this.




Based on comments by Sabrar and I, fonti comes up with this analysis, drops scumread on somi





Switches focus to Swiss with yeetbait Maven as backup.



somi now Townlean.

tl;dr: fonti puts some marginal pressure on somi with the weird 'shroop' thing, but never really follows up on it. Pushes a little against somi, but finds an excuse to back off and move against Swiss and/or Maven instead. Creates distance early, but does what she can to save him when it matters. Although it hadn't occurred to me until the page just dropped half of my quotes as I was writing this, the shroop thing seems really specious considering that these boards lose parts of posts all the time.

Laser has summarised my long post start of day 2.

Day 2, I am not going to quote everything but every time font came under pressure she went harder at eido to ensure her safety.



TLDR Summary

Font hedged all the way on the somi lynch and read. Then hard pushed for swiss eod 1, knew the pressure would come day 2, so started with a "I wasn't serious" then hard pushed eido all day 2.

Also font I'm expecting a self hammer at the end based on

I'm going to level with you guys.

I think this is a slamdunk case. Eido is 99% the last scum and we should kill him Today. If you all run up Laser, I will not move my vote to maj him, even if that means I get yeeted.

Wam , you may quote this. If we yeet Eido and the game doesn't end, you should yeet me Tomorrow. If I argue against it, quote this post.

That's it for now got errands to run.

 

[fontisian]

Note on the post above, somewhere in there respond to all the questions that have come up!

So for font I'm going to start with some upfront assumptions/baseline that underpins the rest.

1) Font can produce good looking content as any alignment.
2) Font can achieve the tone they want in posts as any alignment.
3) Font is very good at convincing people to follow their vote as any alignment.

So based on the above, the only way to analyse font's play is to look at what is trying to be achieved. I have focused from when the lynch on Somi started.



The post above followed immediately after my Somi's vote, here font throws some shade at somi then hedged it and then talks about other players.



would yeet somi or maven, no vote at this point though. Also I hadn't noticed until now how strong Font's eido town read was at the point.



I'm going to be honest and think it maybe confirmation bias but this comes across as coaching. But irrespective it is yet another push on somi with no vote.



Finally a vote for somi, along with the underlined bit which to me seems to be setting up for backing off later if possible.



So again hedging and its immediately followed by a vote for swiss from no where.



So more backing off and talking about somi with no mention of why the swiss vote is "100% serious"




Somi going Swiss here makes swiss look good . Also maybe reading too much in but is there a hint of Somi being coached in the post above. Also circumstantial evidence that Font Somi are pushing the same agenda end of day 1.


Somi being a feeling when font has spent all the last bit of the threads talking about somi is weird.



Swiss case - Is reasonable for a day 1 case but as bessie proved, you play this game enough you can make a case on anyone.



For reference this is 7.5 hours before deadline, still pushing hard on swiss.



Approx 1 hour before deadline, this is still pushing swiss.








All of Font's posts to deadline. Reading through they do seem serious about changing to swiss, then hammering at the end for towncred when it didn't work.



Then plays oh I wasn't serious afterwards. I thought font was being serious at the time ( I had been awake for 10 minutes so my brain wasn't working). Also font could have caused even more chaos and meant we didn't lynch at all then played the same thing. Also this post is what I would expect scum font to do start of day 2, they know the pressure is coming based on the lynch so come out swinging on eido. Also no acknowledgement of how strong Font's eido read was day 1.




Laser has summarised my long post start of day 2.

Day 2, I am not going to quote everything but every time font came under pressure she went harder at eido to ensure her safety.



TLDR Summary

Font hedged all the way on the somi lynch and read. Then hard pushed for swiss eod 1, knew the pressure would come day 2, so started with a "I wasn't serious" then hard pushed eido all day 2.

Also font I'm expecting a self hammer at the end based on



That's it for now got errands to run.

You're not really getting it. The goal isn't just in what I say I'm doing, it's how I do it. The Swiss case wasn't that strong, and I knew that when I made. Scum!me knows it won't save somi. I did it to make things happen, because the game was slow and people weren't invested. You're looking at posts like "towncred, get your towncred here," but those posts aren't convincing, and they aren't meant to be. They're there to provide the illusion of a counterwagon when Sabrar made it possible, but I had no intention of yeeting Swiss at eod. You can tell that by comparing it to how I approached you and Laser in Apex, or how I approached Eido Yesterday, or even how I approached the Xivii/ Bessie as scum in Things. When I want someone dead I hammer it in with the reasons we should kill them. I make it convincing and refuse to back down. That didn't happen with Swiss because I didn't really want him dead.

Second, you skipped the post where I was the person to bring up yeeting Somi in the first place. I don't do this as a wolf because it's stupid and counterproductive. It puts the idea of yeeting somi on the table, but it doesn't actually give me any credit for bussing. You also skipped over me arguing with Laser and Sabrar that their reasons for townreading Somi were bad, and me going into his wolf game and noting similarities.

Third, if I'm going to coach a teammate (and I usually won't beyond some emotional support unless they ask), I'll do it in scumchat. You know, the place scum are given specifically to do that. Bessie can confirm this. I don't tell my teammates what to post or what to do. I'll offer support or encouragement as needed, and maybe given them advice on a post they've already written but are nervous about putting into the thread, but I want them to play their own game and be comfortable with that, I don't do it for them.

Fourth, if I was going to coach Somi, I would have told him to claim Tracker before eod, not vt, so at the very least I could find the tracker or jailkeeper.

Fifth. I may be good at faking my tone, but Somi isn't, so look at his responses to me, because I guarantee you they're how wolf!somi responds to a town.

Swiss Cementing myself as town is like 30% of the job of being town. I get that you think talking about it is scummy, but seeing as the only other option is to die, and it's not interfering with my scumhunting, you can deal with it.