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Death panels for the elderly

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Battlecow

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Greetings again! Since the DH is DEAD and all the COOL discussion goes down here in the PG, I figured I'd make another little topic, introducing y'all to a pet project of mine and perhaps starting a movement.

In its simplest form, the thread can be boiled down to:

Should we (America, although you can debate about other countries/the world if you want to) begin to euthanize old people?

Now, this is not a moral debate. I don't believe in morality, and I hope that some of you have been convinced by my most recent thread to adopt a similar stance, and are currently hiding it (good move, if so). The mass murder of senior citizens is probably morally indefensible, but we're looking out for our own interests, and the "pros" come out like this-

- Our economic worries are gone. Social Security? Medicare? Remember when those mattered? Taxes could be lowered, the debt could be alleviated in a matter of years, the Government could buy everyone brand-new Hori Minipads for their birthdays. Seniors are leeches on society; they get out far, far more than they put in, and with respect to the Baby Boomers, they're getting more out of it than they ever put in.

- We wouldn't have to deal with old people anymore. They are disgusting, weak, repulsive, and from a time so far removed that we can't relate to them.

The "cons"

- We ourselves will one day become old, and we don't want to die sooner than we have to.

- Some of you may still be holding on to human emotions such as love, and therefore may have loved ones (grandparents, or, for the elderly among us, parents) who will be wiped out in this purge.

Both of those cons, however, are easily put to rest. Do you love grandma? Go spend some time with her. You will hate her and her drooling, tapioca-covered, horrifying infirmity before long. You don't want to die? That's why this is a one-time thing; we defend ourselves from the scourge of future generations by properly and strictly indoctrinating them into a moral system of our own creation- our own forefathers' mistake was to give us too much leash. Now they reap the whirlwind.

The final problem, you will say, is that it can't be done. I think, however, that if we spend some time fabricating moral arguments for euthanasia, we could swing public opinion in our favor over the course of ten years or so. You can convince people to legalize anything if it's convenient for them- just look at abortion. If people are willing to kill adorable little baby-things, why wouldn't they kill the pustuled monstrositys of ages past?

This thread is for discussing specific moral arguments we could come up with to support this convenient stance, as well as discussion on problems or sticky points in my idea, and specifics (age cut-off, duration of purges, how to convince the geezers to go quietly, who to spare, how to kill 'em). Of course, when we're done, we'll have to delete the thread and never speak of this to anyone else.
 

MK26

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UberMario

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It would be a totally unacceptable practice. Murder is murder, regardless of the age of the victim, and governmentally-backed murder would never be welcomed to the point that this would become a consideration. They may be a burden, but to forsake them would be insulting beyond belief both to them and our moral practices.

Also, there is no way that "our economic worries would be gone" by getting rid of the elderly, our economic worries will be gone when all of the world powers can stop wasting tax money on worthless **** and more on our own country roads and typically subpar educational systems. >_>
 

Ocean

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lol ****in' battlecow

it would never work (at least in the US), the elderly are the largest population of voters.
 

Theftz22

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Now, this is not a moral debate. I don't believe in morality, and I hope that some of you have been convinced by my most recent thread to adopt a similar stance, and are currently hiding it (good move, if so).
You do realize that your last thread presupposed the non-validity of moral systems, right? You basically asked what the most prudent way for us to behave is, given that morality is not objective.
 

ballin4life

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Also, there is no way that "our economic worries would be gone" by getting rid of the elderly, our economic worries will be gone when all of the world powers can stop wasting tax money on worthless **** and more on our own country roads and typically subpar educational systems. >_>
Well, the US already spends the highest amount per student on education. So I don't think throwing more money at that problem will work.
 

Battlecow

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Right, they're our highest population of voters. Good point. We'd have to do it extrademocratically. A people's movement type of thing.

Ubermario, I specifically said that this was not a moral issue. If you still think that "murder" is "wrong," then you obviously have no place in this thread.

And our governments could afford to spend money on "useless ****" (lol) if we got rid of these leeches.
 

Battlecow

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so do you think the terminally ill should be killed?
It would be less profitable and harder to swing, but yeah, they're costing us money as well. If it could be easily and safely done, with no danger to us...


Again, why not just get rid of all the government benefits for old people?
It's an idea, but we would then bear the burden of supporting our own elderly relatives. No one wants that.
 

global-wolf

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I don't think supporting our elders is so much a burden as it is a part of life. Humans have been supporting their elders for thousands of years without some higher power giving them money. Only recently has stuff like Medicare come to existence, and we really don't need it.
 

asianaussie

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This debate is probably here so Battlecow can one day dig it up and think 'lololol I got people to drop their morals and be inhuman'.

Cutting morals out of what is essentially a debate about self-motivated murder is interesting, but I'm not partaking because I happen to have those human emotions that self-proclaimed-higher-beings such as Warbovine scoff at.
 

T-block

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From a logical perspective, I support it. But that's a dangerous road to go down =P

I think if you're going to exclude morality, there's not much else to say. The biggest roadblock to implementation is morals. When we take that away, I can't think of a good answer to "why not?".

EDIT: Actually, I can.

First of all, how old is too old? I'm sure there are those who can contribute to society up until they are 80, and even past that. Where do we draw the line? Or do we actually make exceptions for those who can continue to contribute? Then what are the criteria for that? These matters would likely spark debates and arguments and cause a good deal of chaos when presented to emotionally and morally-driven humans, especially over a subject as touchy as life and death. This also has implications on the notion of retirement. If we were to begin euthanizing the elderly, we could see the average age of retirement driven back, and we would see less output from an individual than we do now.
 

Battlecow

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This is a one-time purge, first of all. Retirement would be reinstituted after we got rid of this generation's problems. How old is too old? That's one of the things which I hoped we could discuss in this thread. Basically, I'd like to get maximum productivity out of the ****ers; I was thinking around 70 for the cutoff age, because even though a few of them are still moderately useful, they'd hit that useless age really soon. For people with really good uses, we'd make exceptions, of course; it seems like it'd be hard to implement, but with a good bureaucracy handling it, I think we could do a reasonably good job of weeding out the weak and expensive. Debates would certainly crop up, but if we handled them intelligently- perhaps taking a religious approach- we'd be cool.
 

Theftz22

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On the whole, the world would be a significantly less happy place if this was done. The elderly have families and younger friends too. 99.9999% of people would not be able to live with themselves if they allowed this to happen.

/non-moral, non-religious answer
 

T-block

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What's the point if it's a one-time purge? Then those who happened to be old, but just younger than the cutoff date get lucky and can continue to live into old age, while those who are slightly older than the cutoff get screwed?

Deciding an age cutoff is completely arbitrary. People reach end of productivity at different ages, so it's illogical to apply the same line to everyone. Making exceptions is perhaps just as arbitrary and would lead to more debates. The debates would not be able to be controlled either - people will become far too emotionally involved in the issue.

Moreover, why are we allowing a terminally ill 50-year old to live, while euthanizing a healthy 70-year old? Age isn't the only determiner of productivity.
 

Dre89

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Why don't we just nuke the world so all our problems are gone?

The thing is, if efficiency is getting priority over moral conscience, then I don't understand what the goal of this is. It seems we're just being efficient for efficiency's sake. I don't see what the goal is.

:phone:
 

SuperBowser

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lol this topic. My grandad is 83 years old and still runs a hospital that treats people with leprosy/tuberculosis/HIV. He provides more for his society today than most people in this topic ever will. I don't say that to be rude or condescending but it's just the truth.

Why do you single out the elderly? Why not those with chronic illnesses? Why not those with an addiction? Why not those who are unemployed? Why not housewives? Clearly, all these people still serve something for their respective societies. Summarizing the world in economic terms paints an inadequate picture.

- We wouldn't have to deal with old people anymore. They are disgusting, weak, repulsive, and from a time so far removed that we can't relate to them.
Have you ever talked to an old person? They are like normal people. But older. It's not that hard to relate to them, nor are they disgusting or repulsive lol.
 

Battlecow

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You guys make fair critiques. It does seem to me, now that I think about it, that it would be more efficient simply to pick and choose the weakest and most burdensome members of society. Does everyone agree that this is a better goal?

RE Dre: The point, as I made clear in the OP/morals thread, is to maximize our own happiness. Getting rid of the burdensome elderly accomplishes this; nuking the world does not. "Efficiency" is not the goal. Happiness (for us) is the goal.
 

ballin4life

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battlecow - if you adopt the dream of pure capitalism and convince all people to be perfectly selfish, then the weak will be forced to contribute or perish.

(note: In reality I don't think people are perfectly selfish - i.e. charity would exist under pure capitalism).
 

Battlecow

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Ballin' the libertarian

I don't want pure capitalism, though, because even if it would be better for society, I'm looking specifically for what's best for me. Convincing all people to be perfectly selfish is therefore not in my best interests, because I'd have fewer fools to exploit.
 

ballin4life

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Ballin' the libertarian

I don't want pure capitalism, though, because even if it would be better for society, I'm looking specifically for what's best for me. Convincing all people to be perfectly selfish is therefore not in my best interests, because I'd have fewer fools to exploit.
Ok, but if you're only going to aim for the specific society that is best for you, you should only aim for the society where you are a world-ruling dictator.

Good luck with that
 

Battlecow

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Ok, but if you're only going to aim for the specific society that is best for you, you should only aim for the society where you are a world-ruling dictator.

Good luck with that
Mo' money, mo' problems. I can attain maximum felicity with a simple life, snuggled safe into the bosom of upper-middle-class America, playing video games and never working or worrying.
 

1048576

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I'm pretty sure I'd be less productive if you killed my grandmother.

I don't think that people have an inherent right to life, but using age as the parameter for useless is just ********.
 

Battlecow

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You would be less productive if I killed your grandmother? Really? Is that the best you can do?

Grandparents die all the time. Most people seem to work through it.

Like I said, not a moral issue. "Inherent right to life" has nothing to do with it. and age has everything to do with uselessness- an overwhelming majority of people past a certain age are retired, unproductive, and money-sponging in that they get social security, health care, etc. that could go to us.

ANYWAYS moot point we already agreed that we should probably determine it on general uselessness rather than age (although IMO the elderly would be largely wiped out).
 

Skadorski

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Age has everything to do with uselessness- an overwhelming majority of people past a certain age are retired, unproductive, and money-sponging in that they get social security, health care, etc. that could go to us.
So people who are retired deserve to be killed off? Most people who are retired have earned that money honestly. Is what you're saying "if you aren't working, you don't deserve to live"?

Also, instead of killing older people because they're getting money, why don't we stop the programs from giving them money that they don't need?

:038:
 

global-wolf

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Also, instead of killing older people because they're getting money, why don't we stop the programs from giving them money that they don't need?

:038:
I asked this twice.

ANYWAYS moot point we already agreed that we should probably determine it on general uselessness rather than age (although IMO the elderly would be largely wiped out).
Useless for what? When people work, they don't do it for society. They work to make money for themselves. It doesn't affect you. And old people are very useful for their families and friends. They are a friend to their friends and help with taking care of children. The way you talk about uselessness seems to imply if someone doesn't have a paying job, he's useless. If you don't like your own grandparents, then just don't go near them, but the only way other old people can harm you is through taxes. Which is easily solved by removing the taxes.
 

Theftz22

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I'm curious as to this odd sort of view of human nature you seem to have as logical robots, that shouldn't be plagued by emotions, battlecow. What you seem to not realize is that pure logic is never capable of producing actions. It is always a desire, born out of emotion that motivates an action, reason only tells how to do it. For we only act on wants or needs, but these are strictly routed in subjective desires, Hume so adequately showed. So I think your view of what humans should be is simply ludicrous, a being that has no emotions would have no reason to act. Remember that maximizing one's own felicity is not a rational motivation, it is desire based. So why do you cherry-pick out that one desire and hold it up as objective, discarding people's emotions regarding the elderly and weak as irrational? How could it be considered irrational on your view if it contributes towards their felicity? Emotions are never rational or irrational, they are strictly arational. I think your whole basis for this idea of it being somehow "rational" to kill off the weak is completely moot and incredibly strange to me.
 

Battlecow

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So people who are retired deserve to be killed off? Most people who are retired have earned that money honestly. Is what you're saying "if you aren't working, you don't deserve to live"?
Hey- you're kind of the fourth person to bring this up. This is not a moral argument. It's not about what people deserve, it's about what brings us (i.e. me and the theoretical amoral thread-readers) the most possible happiness

I asked this twice.

Useless for what? When people work, they don't do it for society. They work to make money for themselves. It doesn't affect you. And old people are very useful for their families and friends. They are a friend to their friends and help with taking care of children. The way you talk about uselessness seems to imply if someone doesn't have a paying job, he's useless. If you don't like your own grandparents, then just don't go near them, but the only way other old people can harm you is through taxes. Which is easily solved by removing the taxes.
Ah. You're right, and I'm wrong. I don't know why I didn't see this before. It's kind of sad, but I guess removing publically funded benefits for the elderly would render my solution unnecessary. *sigh*. Dumb thread, my apologies.

I'm curious as to this odd sort of view of human nature you seem to have as logical robots, that shouldn't be plagued by emotions, battlecow. What you seem to not realize is that pure logic is never capable of producing actions. It is always a desire, born out of emotion that motivates an action, reason only tells how to do it. For we only act on wants or needs, but these are strictly routed in subjective desires, Hume so adequately showed. So I think your view of what humans should be is simply ludicrous, a being that has no emotions would have no reason to act. Remember that maximizing one's own felicity is not a rational motivation, it is desire based. So why do you cherry-pick out that one desire and hold it up as objective, discarding people's emotions regarding the elderly and weak as irrational? How could it be considered irrational on your view if it contributes towards their felicity? Emotions are never rational or irrational, they are strictly arational. I think your whole basis for this idea of it being somehow "rational" to kill off the weak is completely moot and incredibly strange to me.
Your argument is good, but based on the flawed assumption that I call elderly-protecting emotions irrational. I acknowledge that, given a different objective than mine, alternate courses of action become rational. I never denied it. It is, however, rational to kill off the weak IF your objective is solely to attain maximum felicity and IF the weak burden and disgust you.
 

ballin4life

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Your argument is good, but based on the flawed assumption that I call elderly-protecting emotions irrational. I acknowledge that, given a different objective than mine, alternate courses of action become rational. I never denied it. It is, however, rational to kill off the weak IF your objective is solely to attain maximum felicity and IF the weak burden and disgust you.
Unless other people want to keep them around and you rely on those other people.
 

Battlecow

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True. I was sort of theorizing about it; it works in a vacuum, but the real-world applications get messy and complicated.
 

1048576

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Even if someone's a crppled ******, if killing them would make family or w/e too unhappy, then it's not worth it, so income produced isn't a good parameter either.

Frankly the best option is to take away financial support systems and make suicide readily available. Kind of a free-market social support system.
 

Savon

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No. Having the government kill the elderly opens up a really nasty can of worms that only leads to madness. There is no "official" age when one becomes old. You are only as old as the people around you and the situation you are in. A 20 your old in a class of 1st graders makes you "old". A 80 year old in a room full of 100 year olds makes the 80 year old "old" by comparison. Where do you draw the official line between being "old" and young. Do you just suddenly make a drastic transition overnight on your birthday from being young to old?

The part that makes this scarier is the reasoning. Killing ANY portion of the population will generally lead to less resources being used and "help" the economy to some extent. The problem is deciding who is to be killed. Why not kill the homeless since they do not contribute. Why not kill the young kids since they do not contribute. Why not kill "insert group" because they do not do "insert beneficial action"

The biggest goal of the United States is the protect the rights and freedoms of its people, so if we just begin to kill off the elderly who are guilty of no wrong doing than what does that say about our nation?
Killing off the elderly is not only inhumane, but it is unjustified, hypocritical to our beliefs as Americans, and not realistic since elderly people have a tendency of having loved ones just like everybody else.
 

Battlecow

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No. Having the government kill the elderly opens up a really nasty can of worms that only leads to madness. There is no "official" age when one becomes old. You are only as old as the people around you and the situation you are in. A 20 your old in a class of 1st graders makes you "old". A 80 year old in a room full of 100 year olds makes the 80 year old "old" by comparison. Where do you draw the official line between being "old" and young. Do you just suddenly make a drastic transition overnight on your birthday from being young to old?

The part that makes this scarier is the reasoning. Killing ANY portion of the population will generally lead to less resources being used and "help" the economy to some extent. The problem is deciding who is to be killed. Why not kill the homeless since they do not contribute. Why not kill the young kids since they do not contribute. Why not kill "insert group" because they do not do "insert beneficial action"

The biggest goal of the United States is the protect the rights and freedoms of its people, so if we just begin to kill off the elderly who are guilty of no wrong doing than what does that say about our nation?
Killing off the elderly is not only inhumane, but it is unjustified, hypocritical to our beliefs as Americans, and not realistic since elderly people have a tendency of having loved ones just like everybody else.
Oh, come now. I've already acknowledged that simply removing government aid to old people is a better solution. But just for fun-

You're arguing in moral terms; "hypocrisy" and "inhumane" have no place in this discussion. Also, "we" are not the USA, "we" are a select group of specific people. Those loved ones might be sad, but would it affect us? "We," you must remember, are totally amoral.
 

Savon

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If you are not upholding a moral than there is little to no good reason to negate the topic thus making it virtually undebatable based on the standard you have set. Almost everything we do in this world somehow relates to morality or is somehow influenced by it. The killing of the elderly is an issue that almost exclusively relates to morals, thus saying that morals do not exist in this debate is a pretty absurd standard.
 

Battlecow

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Did you read the OP? People need to read OPs.

"This thread is for discussing specific moral arguments we could come up with to support this convenient stance, as well as discussion on problems or sticky points in my idea, and specifics (age cut-off, duration of purges, how to convince the geezers to go quietly, who to spare, how to kill 'em)."

It's all outlined there. Give it a once-over.
 

Savon

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Greetings again! Since the DH is DEAD and all the COOL discussion goes down here in the PG, I figured I'd make another little topic, introducing y'all to a pet project of mine and perhaps starting a movement.

In its simplest form, the thread can be boiled down to:

Should we (America, although you can debate about other countries/the world if you want to) begin to euthanize old people?

Now, this is not a moral debate. I don't believe in morality, and I hope that some of you have been convinced by my most recent thread to adopt a similar stance, and are currently hiding it (good move, if so). The mass murder of senior citizens is probably morally indefensible, but we're looking out for our own interests, and the "pros" come out like this-

- Our economic worries are gone. Social Security? Medicare? Remember when those mattered? Taxes could be lowered, the debt could be alleviated in a matter of years, the Government could buy everyone brand-new Hori Minipads for their birthdays. Seniors are leeches on society; they get out far, far more than they put in, and with respect to the Baby Boomers, they're getting more out of it than they ever put in.

- We wouldn't have to deal with old people anymore. They are disgusting, weak, repulsive, and from a time so far removed that we can't relate to them.

The "cons"

- We ourselves will one day become old, and we don't want to die sooner than we have to.

- Some of you may still be holding on to human emotions such as love, and therefore may have loved ones (grandparents, or, for the elderly among us, parents) who will be wiped out in this purge.

Both of those cons, however, are easily put to rest. Do you love grandma? Go spend some time with her. You will hate her and her drooling, tapioca-covered, horrifying infirmity before long. You don't want to die? That's why this is a one-time thing; we defend ourselves from the scourge of future generations by properly and strictly indoctrinating them into a moral system of our own creation- our own forefathers' mistake was to give us too much leash. Now they reap the whirlwind.

The final problem, you will say, is that it can't be done. I think, however, that if we spend some time fabricating moral arguments for euthanasia, we could swing public opinion in our favor over the course of ten years or so. You can convince people to legalize anything if it's convenient for them- just look at abortion. If people are willing to kill adorable little baby-things, why wouldn't they kill the pustuled monstrositys of ages past?

This thread is for discussing specific moral arguments we could come up with to support this convenient stance, as well as discussion on problems or sticky points in my idea, and specifics (age cut-off, duration of purges, how to convince the geezers to go quietly, who to spare, how to kill 'em). Of course, when we're done, we'll have to delete the thread and never speak of this to anyone else.
Wut..........
 

Battlecow

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Read the whole thing. "This thread is for discussing specific moral arguments we could come up with to support this convenient stance"

That is, we know that it's wrong, but to convince the large portion of society we'd need, we'd need to act as if it were morally defensible.

As I said:

"if we spend some time fabricating moral arguments for euthanasia, we could swing public opinion in our favor over the course of ten years or so"

It all makes perfect sense. You just have to read it in its entirety.
 
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