Dealing With Weakenesses, Current Discussion: Charizard's ledge options

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Well, I drank some bad coffee or something. It meant to be getting KILLS with Squirtle <_<.

 

[Zigsta]

Alright, I've got something: Possibilities out of Charizard's grab release.

 

[Toby.]

Grab release options aren't a weakness either, they're one of charizards strengths.

Low fatigue squirtle is all about getting the gimp and playing hit and run.

I'm more worried about getting outcamped with ivysaur.

 

[Magik0722]

someone should make a dealing with stregths thread

 

[Zigsta]

Grab release options aren't a weakness either, they're one of charizards strengths.

Low fatigue squirtle is all about getting the gimp and playing hit and run.

I'm more worried about getting outcamped with ivysaur.

Whoops, haha, I forgot this was a thread on weaknesses. Ignore my ******** suggestion then. XD

 

[Kage Me]

Actually, fatigue is a pretty big issue that could be looked into. What if your Pokémon is fatigued and your opponent is putting the pressure on, making a safe Pokémon Change impossible (by "safe" I mean "not greeted by a charged f-smash").

I know it's something I have trouble dealing with...

 

[Bomber7]

well, even if this is simply easier said than done, if that is you scenario, you have to fight your butt off to make the switch, however if your pokemon is at a high %, depending on who it is, it may not be worth it. However it's all situational, do you want to make the switch? why? at what %? Who are you switching out to? why? etc.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

Dealing With "Weakenesses", Current Discussion: Ivysaur

 

[Magik0722]

there really isnt much to discuss about stamina, we all know it sucks, the only discussion to be had is wii hacks and not spamming moves in between stocks

 

[DemonFart]

Yup.
There's no way to make stamina an advantage. No way to stop it somehow....It's just awful.

Thanks Sakurai.

 

[Bomber7]

are there really any weaknesses of PT that can't be fixed easily?

What about Charz's slowness. or ability to be combo'd

 

[Kage Me]

I think that has been somewhat covered by "Charizard getting juggled"...

 

[Bomber7]

water gun taking a second to fire?

uhhhh, ivy's lagginess

charizards, fair(not sweetspoted)


uhhh......


uhhhh......



Metaknight?

 

[DemonFart]

Every character has a weakness with MK.

Hmm...How about....I.don't know...

 

[PkTrainerCris]

squirtle getting killed

 

[Charizard92]

Oh, oh, I got one! The fact that all the Pokemon but Ivysaur don't have an actual projectile, and Charizard lacks a defense against one.

 

[Zigsta]

Oh, oh, I got one! The fact that all the Pokemon but Ivysaur don't have an actual projectile, and Charizard lacks a defense against one.

With Charizard, you pretty much have to perfect shield approach. Flamethrower can take out some projectiles, like Toon Link's arrows and boomerangs.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Well, what about Squirtles Grab Releases shennigans?

 

[DemonFart]

Grab release-Jab is too good.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

I am talking about when they grab Squirtle :/

 

[Bomber7]

is there really any weaknesses that can be listed that wont be shot down by a non witty one liner?

 

[Zigsta]

I am talking about when they grab Squirtle :/

You're talking about that annoying Marth grab release, right? In that case, you just have to hope the Marth messes up with his finisher. To my knowledge there's nothing you can do against that as Squirtle. :/

 

[Bomber7]

o yeah, it's called the 0 to Death Combo. It's INESCAPABLE for squirtle.

Got a friend I played online with and I played VG and they did it to me countless times.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Well, how can Squirtle not get grabbed?

Also, Other characters possess that release, like ZSS.

 

[Bomber7]

uhhh how not to get grabbed. To be simple is develop an instinct. in Melee I trained against lvl 9 Samus' because if you recall or at least in my game, like every 5 seconds she would grab so I eventually learned to dodge like because of that training. You would be amazed at how well I could dodge in Melee (with marth or link) because a split second before they would attack or grab, I would dodge(spot dodge e.g) I could even dodge a fully charged shot from Samus easily. But my main point is to develop that instinct.

 

[Toby.]

Goku, get the discussion going on a real weakness. If you've chosen grab release gay with squirtle, put it into the title so people know that discussion is underway again.

Waiting for people to decide on one together won't work, because this board has the attention span of a 5 year old.

If you ever can't think of a new topic, real weaknesses include...

Ivysaur
- Approaching
- Spacing characters with longer range / better disjoints.
- Really bad position = both ivy and opponent in the air facing each other. Outside of nair range. Fair is too slow. Basically ivy gets owned.


Charizard
- Getting up from the ledge (due to his up-b glitch)
- Blind spot = below him
- Multi hit moves eg GW nair, Pit's nair/uair.
- Whorenado. Charizard has one of the slowest jumps (in terms of the time it takes to actually leave the ground) in the game, so RARing a bair is harder than it sounds if they begin the nado at the right distance.

Squirtle
- Almost all of squirtles moves can be shield grabbed by anyone with a decent grab range combined with...
-...half the cast having grab release options on squirtle, it's bad.
- Incredibly bad recovery. Easy to spike and stagespike. Slow. Predictable.

 

[Steeler]

if ivysaur is outspaced, it needs to focus on staying grounded, it's a lot more effective that way, imo. know when you can razor leaf and when you can't. use dtilt and pivot grabs. punish spot dodges with jab and bullet seed if you are feeling lucky. practice throw setups. switch to charizard when you can..........lol

by up b glitch, do you mean the fact that zard has extra landing lag the next time he lands if he sweetspots fly? or do you just mean that zard can't grab the ledge if he passes it about halfway through the move? shaya said zard has an unusually large amount of invincibility frames on his get up attack and normal get up (i think).

tornado is a real *****. you can try pivot grabbing it for the lulz. rock smash works if you are under or even with the tornado. you'll take 1% and they'll take like 15%, ideally. it's tricky though. ftilt is also tricky to hit with...i like punishing MK with flamethrower out of the tornado because it outranges everything and punishes the spot dodges that some MKs like to do out of tornado.

i think squirtle bair is disjointed slightly with the tail. this combined with air spacing makes it more difficult to shieldgrab than usual. but the most important thing is doing wario tactics and empty short/full hops at the opponent so they don't know when to expect an attack. combine this with squirtle's decent ground game. instead of aerialing, land out of range and dash grab them if you know they will put their shield up, expecting to grab you out of something. combine all of this stuff and it will give you enough mix ups to confuse the opponent.

idk i just felt like commenting on some of that.

 

[Toby.]

Its the normal get up that has unusual amounts of invincibility frames. I was referring to getting the landing lag of up-b if we SS the edge with it, because that cuts out a lot of our options. As a result they can just put their shield up when we start to move, and regardless of what we do we're going to be easily punished.

almost every time i try to rock smash a tornado it eats the rock and i still get caught up

also in regards to squirtle getting grabbed, best bet is to CP a stage with platforms that can halt the chain grab. Some of the platforms on delphino can do this. Battlefield works too. I dont think halberd works, though I could be wrong.

 

[T-block]

Oh, let's do the Charizard ledge one.

I...was totally unaware of this glitch... So if I sweetspot the edge with Fly, then let's say jump from the ledge (normal ledgejump), do a f-air, and then land, I'll have the same landing lag as if I had used Fly? o.o What if you regrab the edge with a normal jump after that?

I guess I never noticed because whenever I'm on the edge, I always return with get-up attack or ledgehopped Rock Smash.

Ledge options:
Get-up attack
Roll
Jump
Ledgehopped f-air onto stage
Ledgehopped f-air regrab
Ledgehopped n-air regrab
Ledgehopped Rock Smash
Fly past the ledge

I use get-up attack a lot...probably more than I should. I never roll off the ledge. Jump from the ledge... I could see a d-air or even fast fall into a b-air catching them offguard. Ledgehopped f-air onto the stage kinda blows because of the landing lag and the no-flinch hitbox. Ledgehopped f-air regrab is safer, but still isn't terribly practical with the no-flinch. I've been using ledgehop n-air regrab a lot lately too. Charizard's tail sweeps a good distance onto the stage (especially stages like Delfino and Halberd), and if it connects, it allows you to ledgehop back on more safely. I actually use ledgehop Rock Smash a lot too, mostly because the shards tend to catch people. Fly past the ledge is too risky since it can be DI'd out of and has massive lag.

Those are my thoughts... comments/advice?

 

[Toby.]

If you do a ledgejump, when you hit the ground you will suffer the lag of Fly. The problem with this is that all our other options can be punished as long as the opponent just brings up their shield.

If they know what they are doing, you can try to trick them into depleting their shield enough so that a ledgehopped rock smash pokes destroys their shield. Best way to do this is regrabbed bairs, nairs and flamethrowers. You don't need to deplete too much of their shield before it starts being effective. It does leave you open to low attacks though. Marths dtilt wrecks charizard on the ledge.

If they know what they are doing though it can be very very awkward.

 

[Zigsta]

I also didn't realize this get-up glitch, but that does explain why Charizard seems to be the easiest to punish out of the three Pokemon when he tries to get up from the ledge. I usually try to fair while under the edge so that the tip of the flame sends them far back enough that I can get up easier.

 

[T-block]

Now that I think about it, I'm liking just a regular jump from the ledge more. I think it's a viable option as long as you're mixing it up with other get-ups, since if they predict it you've just put yourself in a position to be juggled. As for the landing lag glitch...all I can say is land with a Rock Smash. If you're gonna be unable to move on the ground anyways, you might as well be mashing your face into a rock.

 

[Bomber7]

I really don't know if this has been mentioned but did you know that if you use not only an aerial with Charz to make a safe hop back on stage but rock smash? I found it out a while back and the animation naturally carries Charz over the ledge and onto the stage.

 

[Retro Gaming]

The delayed Fly lag is extremely annoying. This is how I understand it works:

• If you sweetspot the ledge with Fly, the next time you land on the ground without any other sort of lag, you will suffer Fly lag.
• If you land with the lag of another move (lets say Dair) you will suffer the Dair lag instead, but the Fly lag will still be queued. It will happen the next time you land on the ground without any other lag.

This also happens to Squirtle, although Squirtle's Waterfall lag is significantly less than Charizard's Fly lag.

What I typically try to do is just stay on the ledge until I can make an opening to suffer the lag. You can do a rising Fair from the ledge and then DI back off the ledge to try to use that knockback, or you can also try to use rising Uair followed by another Uair or two before regrabbing the ledge. Rock Smash is an obvious option, but I think it gets predictable pretty fast. Sometimes, you just have too limited options on the ledge, and you have to get hit right as you land to nullify it. Always remember to avoid using Fly if possible, so that you don't have to deal with this.

 

[Toby.]

As far as I'm aware, you only receive the lag if you do the normal ledge jump. This is still bad because it cuts out an entire option, and makes things easier for the opponent.

But anyway I found a fairly decent solution

Tap the opposite direction on the control stick to drop away from the edge and turn around, then immediately b-air. If you time it right you will b-air directly on to the stage, landing with no lag. So you can b-air -> jab/ shield /grab / jab cancelled whatever.

Its pretty safe.

<3

 

[unsung-unit2291]

Sorry this is late, but I felt a rather decent Ivysaur recovery tactic was ignored.

Through the whole Fair mindgames do work, Bair has more options.

Take the whole "Throw two razor leaves, then use your second jump."
Reverse the Razor Leaf on the second jump, Bair, then do a reversed Vine Whip to recover.

Bair has more range, longer duration, less cooldown, two chances to hit through invincibility frames, all equaling a safer approach to the ledge.

 

[Cyphus]

wow. thats smart!
*is in the process of learning trainer*

 

[Zigsta]

wow. thats smart!
*is in the process of learning trainer*

Reflex got ya going after LasT Smash 3?