Day, Night, and Dusk - Lycanroc for Smash Bros. Ultimate

[Deleted member]

I don't think it's Dante but he is someone I want in. Hope he gets in eventually.

Should be interesting regardless.

 

[Guynamednelson]

a ploy by Nintendo to prioritize sales and "hype"

To be fair, they shouldn't really need it anymore when this is a game that has sold 15 million and has a fanbase always craving more fighters. In addition, competitive players are mainly the ones who stick around, which is something that makes me concerned about them not promoting ATs/Poke Balls/Spirits or doing another humanoid starter, as the Pokemon with the best competitive Smash history across multiple games is Pikachu.

 

[RileyXY1]

A Pokemon getting in as DLC would be a good idea because Pokemon is massive, both in terms of sales and the fanbase.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Pokemon is massive, both in terms of sales and the fanbase.

Yes but Sakurai doesn't really take advantage of that when he just sticks to whatever new starter is the most human.

 

[Delzethin]

It's nice to see the thread so active again. Let's keep this up--we're getting close to 3,000 posts. Would be a decent achievement at least, no matter what else happens.

Honestly, while i don't want to say anything too soon, the fact that the Devil May Cry twitter noted January 16 as a day where more info towards the series happens to be in the same day as the 5th character reveal is very odd.

Honestly, it's probably a red herring. Why would Nintendo let something as major as a Smash newcomer reveal be given away ahead of time by a social media account from a completely dfiferent company? And didn't the DMC account clarify at some point that the news is all regarding the upcoming port of DMC3?

That, and two different insiders said a month and a half ago that they'd heard #5 was not Dante, so...

Oh, and I think this is an important detail that bears repeating for those who feel... iffy about the amount of 3rd parties we've gotten in the Pass: The higher-ups at Nintendo were the ones who gave Sakurai the list to choose characters from, he wasn't completely free this time. Of course he still had the final word, but his choices were still limited.

Problem is, we have no clue how big "the list" was, or who else was on it (given that a more obscure pick like Terry was on there, though, it might've been extensive enough, I guess). Who's to say the list didn't have all third parties, a ploy by Nintendo to prioritize sales and "hype" over... um... the "art" and "the little guy", I guess?

Yeah, yeah, this is kind of a cynical and "capitalism bad, unga bunga" way of looking at it, and the dev team still did a great job giving us fun and unique characters to play as, but I still feel it's a good reminder to those who blame Sakurai for literally everything.

Still, it'd be real nice to get a first party DLC character at some point...

Thing is, we still don't know to what extent anyone's hands were forced (if at all) or even who within Nintendo's higher ups were involved. Besides, wouldn't you figure the "marketing" angle would fall flat if it turned out every DLC other than Piranha Plant was from other companies? Nintendo themselves wouldn't be benefiting as much compared to if it was their own characters.

If anything, it'd feel more like a lack of confidence on the part of...whoever made the decisions. After so many years of seeing how (almost) anyone getting into Smash has excited people, to suddenly believe that they need to keep pulling off wild crossovers and chasing headlines or else no one will care anymore? That just isn't true, you know?

Yes but Sakurai doesn't really take advantage of that when he just sticks to whatever new starter is the most human.

Er...is everything okay? I get being afraid that character choices might be forced to fit one mold, especially if it meant a franchise with so many wildly different options would see most of them ignored for not matching those expectations, but you've been on this for a while. That kind of single-minded bitterness is usually a sign of some rough stuff going on under the surface...

 

[Guynamednelson]

Er...is everything okay? I get being afraid that character choices might be forced to fit one mold, especially if it meant a franchise with so many wildly different options would see most of them ignored for not matching those expectations, but you've been on this for a while. That kind of single-minded bitterness is usually a sign of some rough stuff going on under the surface...

Just more bitterness over Pokemon being reverse FE.

People who preferred Chrom got him into the game, while people who campaigned against Incineroar submitted to him. Wanting to get rid of a cliche vs. wanting Pokemon reps to embrace the new one. 3H reps are chosen by fans out of actual passion for the characters, while SS reps are chosen just to have one.

 

[LukeRNG]

Just more bitterness over Pokemon being reverse FE.

People who preferred Chrom got him into the game, while people who campaigned against Incineroar submitted to him. Wanting to get rid of a cliche vs. wanting Pokemon reps to embrace the new one. 3H reps are chosen by fans out of actual passion for the characters, while SS reps are chosen just to have one.

Maybe it's the fact that pokemon games have usually come out the wrong time when compared to smash bros: X & Y came out a year before smash 4 released and Sun & Moon, while it had 2 years from the release of Ultimate, this specific smash bros focused more on the legacy of the franchise than adding many new characters. I feel if Ultimate was a brand new game with character & stage cuts + released in 2019 or 2020, that pokemon character pick could've been different.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I feel if Ultimate was a brand new game with character & stage cuts + released in 2019 or 2020, that pokemon character pick could've been different.

Not necessarily. I think it's more like if Sakurai chose another ballot pick to be the final base newcomer and started development on the new Pokemon later, based on what had definite popularity, rather than Piranha Plant.

My reaction to the plant is considerably more positive than Incineroar but I wouldn't mind if Sakurai did this instead.

 

[RandomAce]

So, in about 9 or so hours Sakurai will reveal the last fighter.

Tbh, I don’t really pay that much attention to speculation as much, but I’m still hoping that Lycanroc can still join Smash, and hopefully some of my other most wanted as well.

Regardless, this is gonna be exciting because we don’t actually know who’ll be Fighter #5.

 

[Deleted member]

Should be fun tommorow.

 

[Delzethin]

Just a few minutes to go.

Guys...whatever comes to pass over the next half hour...it's been an honor.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Wanting to get rid of a cliche

And what do you know, Sakurai made an FE fighter that's less cliche!

Now make an even less cliche fighter for Pokemon. Please. I beg you.

 

[Garteam]

The flood gates have been opened, first parties once again seem realistic, and we have 6 characters to go.

 

[LukeRNG]

So... is this it for Lycanroc?

 

[Guynamednelson]

So... is this it for Lycanroc?

Even if Sakurai goes "oh right, there's more to Pokemon than whatever new starter I can stick a preexisting human moveset on to", it's gonna have plenty of competition.

 

[Deleted member]

I hope Lycanroc still has a chance but who knows.

Always rooting for it though!

 

[Cyborg Sun]

So... is this it for Lycanroc?

Perhaps it is, perhaps it isn't... but, Byleth has proven that first parties are still contenders when it comes to DLC. So we still have that.

 

[LukeRNG]

Perhaps it is, perhaps it isn't... but, Byleth has proven that first parties are still contenders when it comes to DLC. So we still have that.

The question has to do with whether they pick from Sword & Shield or not.

 

[Cosmic77]

The question has to do with whether they pick from Sword & Shield or not.

I don't see them choosing a second SuMo Pokemon, and I'm not just saying that out of bias for the doggo Legendaries. That would be like Sakurai adding Lyn or Celica instead of Byleth.

There's a tiny, minuscule chance, but I wouldn't count on it. I might have to shelf Lycanroc like I did for Zoroark until the remakes come out.

 

[Guynamednelson]

That would be like Sakurai adding Lyn

You're saying that like adding the series' most popular character that isn't playable in Smash doesn't make sense.

 

[Cosmic77]

You're saying that like adding the series' most popular character that isn't playable in Smash doesn't make sense.

I'm sorry, but I don't think it'll ever happen as long as new FE games are coming out.

Same with Pokemon. Lots of good choices don't make the cut, and Sakurai rarely looks back at them. Seems he would rather look at new characters instead.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Same with Pokemon. Lots of good choices don't make the cut, and Sakurai rarely looks back at them. Seems he would rather look at new characters instead.

Which is a bad thing in a time where the series' most popular titles nowadays are F2P mobile spinoffs that don't get the newest gens immediately. And Terry got in before Shun'ei.

 

[Delzethin]

Well...this is bittersweet.

After waiting to the very end of the Fighters Pass, we finally got the breakthrough that so many drowned-out support bases had been hoping for. A first party character in the main line of DLC, from an already present franchise, and one whose presence wasn't a bombshell of a headline. Despite how much Byleth's inclusion has been met with backlash from...some parts of the community, it's a ray of hope in a way. For anyone still supporting any character who didn't fit the "huge names from new third party series only" talk that'd been dominating discussion for months, it's a sigh of relief, knowing they aren't being shut out.

Except...we've still been left behind. It seems our time in the spotlight has, now, truly passed. All of the work we put in never mattered...and odds are, we'll be little more than a footnote in Smash history, if not completely forgotten...or decried as losers who "never deserved it".

Such is the curse of a fandom fixated on results, I suppose.

But, in some ways, perhaps it wasn't a total loss. The main reason I started this whole thing was because I saw a fascinating character and wanted to reach other people who felt the same. Together, we could show why we cared so much, and convince others to give a damn too. While that proved to be a nigh-impossible task, as it turns out a lot of the Smash community barely looks beyond whoever is either popular to talk about or considered most likely to get in--sometimes mistaking the former for the latter--we at least caught some attention. Enough that we were taken seriously for a span of a few weeks before...well, you know.

And, more importantly I suppose, it turned out there were more like us than we realized. While we never managed to get many to seriously consider Lycanroc as a Smash candidate (again, because most people involved had already made up their minds on who had a chance), all three forms eventually did become very popular in their home fandom like we'd hoped and very prominent within their generation just like we'd thought would happen. And now we even have a return in the new generation to look forward to, hopefully with just the right buffs to make them prominent competitively as well.

So...yeah, I have a lot of mixed feelings right now.

But, while we don't have much to really hope for now barring a surprise reveal the likes we haven't seen before...I don't want to just up and abandon things. I want to still do something constructive with this thread--we're still here, and what purpose would there be in throwing that away? I'm just not sure what we could do that'd be meaningful, but there must be something, right?

How does everyone else feel?

 

[Cyborg Sun]

But, while we don't have much to really hope for now barring a surprise reveal the likes we haven't seen before...I don't want to just up and abandon things. I want to still do something constructive with this thread--we're still here, and what purpose would there be in throwing that away? I'm just not sure what we could do that'd be meaningful, but there must be something, right?

How does everyone else feel?

All things considered, I've always found this thread to be one of the more "level-headed" ones, so-to-speak. We could simply continue using this thread as a sort of "safe haven" from some of the community's... nastier aspects. Not only that, but discussion on Pokemon news in general is still kinda popular here.

...And, on a personal level, as a fan of your videos, this is a good place to speak to you publicly. As for my thoughts on Byleth... well, I've already stated this elsewhere, but I'm relieved we got something to prove first parties are still viable options. Regardless though, I will gladly take 6 more Challenger Packs because I'm a greedy pig, lol.

...Captain Toad please?

 

[Cosmic77]

But, while we don't have much to really hope for now barring a surprise reveal the likes we haven't seen before...I don't want to just up and abandon things. I want to still do something constructive with this thread--we're still here, and what purpose would there be in throwing that away? I'm just not sure what we could do that'd be meaningful, but there must be something, right?

How does everyone else feel?

I'll probably still visit this thread just because I have a bit of a history with it, but I think I'm officially retiring Lycanroc until it makes a grand return through some kind of special form or remake of SuMo.

I still want a Pokemon though, so I'll be doubling down on Zacian and Zamazenta, who are what I'd consider to be the next best option for a quad wolf-like character. The Spirit took a bit of my confidence away, but Byleth has brought it back. It'd be a shame if I quit so soon, especially since I stuck with Lycanroc during even harder situations.

 

[Guynamednelson]

who are what I'd consider to be the next best option for a quad wolf-like character

Unfortunately I don't necessarily want something that's a "quad wolf-like character", but something that's the exact opposite of Incineroar: Something that's neither humanoid nor slow, and was chosen because of popularity/promotion that definitely exists, rather than "it's new and conveniently fits this human moveset I had lying around". That first point is why I'd rather have, say, Scorbunny than Cinderace, because with it already having soccer theming from the start all I can see Cinderace having that Scorbunny doesn't is worse frame data and more furry porn.

 

[Cosmic77]

Unfortunately I don't necessarily want something that's a "quad wolf-like character", but something that's the exact opposite of Incineroar: Something that's neither humanoid nor slow, and was chosen because of popularity/promotion that definitely exists, rather than "it's new and conveniently fits this human moveset I had lying around". That first point is why I'd rather have, say, Scorbunny than Cinderace, because with it already having soccer theming from the start all I can see Cinderace having that Scorbunny doesn't is worse frame data and more furry porn.

I thought Sirfetch'd was the Pokemon you wanted. It's not humanoid to the extent of Incineroar, but couldn't most human swordfighter moves work just fine with it?

 

[LukeRNG]

Unfortunately I don't necessarily want something that's a "quad wolf-like character", but something that's the exact opposite of Incineroar: Something that's neither humanoid nor slow, and was chosen because of popularity/promotion that definitely exists, rather than "it's new and conveniently fits this human moveset I had lying around". That first point is why I'd rather have, say, Scorbunny than Cinderace, because with it already having soccer theming from the start all I can see Cinderace having that Scorbunny doesn't is worse frame data and more furry porn.

I don't know if you've said this, but i take that you like Greninja then or...?

(Also i'm afraid that pokemon is that big of a series that no matter what it does it will always fall victim to r34.)

 

[Guynamednelson]

I thought Sirfetch'd was the Pokemon you wanted.

Eh, somewhat. It's more like the gen 8 Pokemon I'd be the most fine with.

I don't know if you've said this, but i take that you like Greninja then or...?

(Also i'm afraid that pokemon is that big of a series that no matter what it does it will always fall victim to r34.)

I am much more accepting of Greninja than Incineroar, yes. Also that furry porn line was just a joke.

 

[Deleted member]

Sucks for Lycanroc but dang man it’s unfortunate it’s chances are still there.

Though don’t know.

 

[Delzethin]

Still haven't figured out exactly what we could do yet...but in the meantime, the English dub of the anime reached the end of the Alola League Finals yesterday.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Seems like most everyone who does anything Nintendo-related online already knew it happened back when the Japanese version aired, but a new crowd still got to see it. Including some younger kids, probably--unsure how popular the anime still is nowadays; everyone in my immediate family is at least in their 20s now, haha. Anyone have any grade school-age siblings or cousins who watch it on TV who may have just seen Ash win a championship for the first time?

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Well...this is bittersweet.

After waiting to the very end of the Fighters Pass, we finally got the breakthrough that so many drowned-out support bases had been hoping for. A first party character in the main line of DLC, from an already present franchise, and one whose presence wasn't a bombshell of a headline. Despite how much Byleth's inclusion has been met with backlash from...some parts of the community, it's a ray of hope in a way. For anyone still supporting any character who didn't fit the "huge names from new third party series only" talk that'd been dominating discussion for months, it's a sigh of relief, knowing they aren't being shut out.

Except...we've still been left behind. It seems our time in the spotlight has, now, truly passed. All of the work we put in never mattered...and odds are, we'll be little more than a footnote in Smash history, if not completely forgotten...or decried as losers who "never deserved it".

Such is the curse of a fandom fixated on results, I suppose.

But, in some ways, perhaps it wasn't a total loss. The main reason I started this whole thing was because I saw a fascinating character and wanted to reach other people who felt the same. Together, we could show why we cared so much, and convince others to give a damn too. While that proved to be a nigh-impossible task, as it turns out a lot of the Smash community barely looks beyond whoever is either popular to talk about or considered most likely to get in--sometimes mistaking the former for the latter--we at least caught some attention. Enough that we were taken seriously for a span of a few weeks before...well, you know.

And, more importantly I suppose, it turned out there were more like us than we realized. While we never managed to get many to seriously consider Lycanroc as a Smash candidate (again, because most people involved had already made up their minds on who had a chance), all three forms eventually did become very popular in their home fandom like we'd hoped and very prominent within their generation just like we'd thought would happen. And now we even have a return in the new generation to look forward to, hopefully with just the right buffs to make them prominent competitively as well.

So...yeah, I have a lot of mixed feelings right now.

But, while we don't have much to really hope for now barring a surprise reveal the likes we haven't seen before...I don't want to just up and abandon things. I want to still do something constructive with this thread--we're still here, and what purpose would there be in throwing that away? I'm just not sure what we could do that'd be meaningful, but there must be something, right?

How does everyone else feel?

Okay aside from that I believe Lycanroc's chances to be very low, we could live on a bit as a Zacian/Zamazenta Echo Lycanroc thread

 

[RandomAce]

Although I am happy at the shock that is Byleth being FP5, I was still bummed that Lycanroc didn’t show up.

In the end, I’ll still support Lycanroc. I don’t really care as much about speculation so nowadays I’m hoping that some of my other most wanted can get in, and hopefully Byleth was the beginning of that.

 

[LukeRNG]

I am a tad concerned with how Byleth will turn out. Don't know how well the weapons will work in the heat of combat.

And i will say it was really refreshing to be part of a conversation like this for the first time. It was fun and insightfull. A shame Lycanroc is out of the running along with other pokemon i would've liked to see, but i guess that's just how pokemon in smash works.

So, what are the 6 characters you would like to have?

 

[Delzethin]

You know...I wonder how much of the tension within the Smash community has been...self-inflicted, in a broader sense. For so many support groups, a chance to join a legendary roster is not only the opportunity of a lifetime, but a chance to be acknowledged, a chance to become a household name. You make it into Smash, and everyone will know who you are. Take that sentiment and twist it over time with an extra dash of tribalism thrown in, and you get the situation you see now, with fans treating the roster like some kind of measuring contest between characters and franchises.

Which, of course, is not how Sakurai views it--he never intended Smash to decide who matters and who doesn't.

But this extra meaning the fans have given the roster has caused another problem: So many people assume a character's worth is determined by whether they're playable in Smash or not that they treat it as if it was true even though it wasn't meant to be. A mistaken belief spread so far and so vocally that the actual truth is unable to make a difference. Because of it, fans of more overlooked or (in their minds) underappreciated characters wind up backed into a corner. Because if the Smash roster is considered a who's who among Nintendo or even gaming as a whole, then does that mean your only decent chance to convince other people to care is to hope that letter comes?

In a way, that was what brought many of us here to begin with. And now...now what? Our time has passed, the spotlight has moved on...and who will care now? It's a dilemma that a lot of Smash fans have felt over the years.

I wonder...could there be another way? There are countless other support bases like us, or even fans of other characters in similar situations unrelated to Smash. Could there be a way to give a voice to those who've been forgotten?

Maybe there's even something I could do in the long run...

So, what are the 6 characters you would like to have?

Well, my list has narrowed down a lot since a couple years ago, but:

- Geno
- Byleth or Dimitri (actually got this one, surprisingly)
- Zacian, Rillaboom, or maybe Cinderace if something unique was done
- Rex or Lora, if Xenoblade 2 still has a chance
- If Assist Trophies somehow end up eligible to become newcomers, then Isaac and Krystal could be neat

There're others I'm midly interested in/intrigued by, but those are the main ones.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I wonder...could there be another way? There are countless other support bases like us, or even fans of other characters in similar situations unrelated to Smash. Could there be a way to give a voice to those who've been forgotten?

Maybe there's even something I could do in the long run...

I think we need to do the following:

1. Point out that while Robin is more unique, people still wanted to play as their preferred Awakening rep, resulting in Chrom's inclusion. This conflicts with people settling on Incineroar under the belief that he's so fun to play as despite not being their desired Gen 7 rep.
2. Convince more Smash fans that there's more to adding a Pokemon than killing two quota birds with one stone. Think about it: Sceptile, Decidueye, Rillaboom. All Pokemon that absolutely had to be in, and they'd fill out gen+grass starter quotas. And then there's that Gardevoir+Gothitelle stuff about repping two gens when in reality they'd just cater to Gardevoir's popularity.

 

[Delzethin]

I think we need to do the following:

1. Point out that while Robin is more unique, people still wanted to play as their preferred Awakening rep, resulting in Chrom's inclusion. This conflicts with people settling on Incineroar under the belief that he's so fun to play as despite not being their desired Gen 7 rep.
2. Convince more Smash fans that there's more to adding a Pokemon than killing two quota birds with one stone. Think about it: Sceptile, Decidueye, Rillaboom. All Pokemon that absolutely had to be in, and they'd fill out gen+grass starter quotas. And then there's that Gardevoir+Gothitelle stuff about repping two gens when in reality they'd just cater to Gardevoir's popularity.

Not what I meant. What I'm wondering is if there could be a way to shake off the community-wide notion that the Smash roster determines who is or is not important.

If we could somehow change that... hm...

 

[Staarih]

Kukui and (Midday) Lycanroc are having a Spotlight Scout coming soon in Pokémon Masters, for anyone interested and still playing that game (like myself):

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[RandomAce]

Kukui and (Midday) Lycanroc are having a Spotlight Scout coming soon in Pokémon Masters, for anyone interested and still playing that game (like myself):

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Finally, I was wondering when Midday would release.

That’s a pretty bad splintered Stormshards though.

 

[Garteam]

I've been a little tardy with this thread recently, so I apologize for that.

It does seem that, beyond some miracle, things are most likely curtains for Lycanroc in Smash. That being said, I wouldn't say Lycanroc didn't leave a legacy. He still stands as a defining icon of Alola, the second most popular rock-type after Tyranitar, Ash's main Pokemon for the region, and the one who finally broke the Pokemon League curse. That last one in particular is pretty big, as it makes me think that Lycanroc will may get a second wind a decade from now, when kids who grew up watching the Alola anime and Lycanroc become major parts of the Pokemon community, similar to how Sceptile got a second wind about a decade after RSE.

Even then, that's also not to say we didn't leave some sort of legacy behind. We fostered a community that I am more than proud to be part of and I have enjoyed immensely. The fact we were able to outlast and outgrow basically every other Gen 7 Pokemon on this board definitely means something. Even Incineroar, the Pokemon who actually got in, had his social thread go the way of the Dodo a few months after release. In terms of a more tangential result, the fact that Lycanroc was one of the first Pokemon announced to be returning with the Isle of Armour means Game Freak has to be somewhat aware of his popularity.

Ultimate's relationship with Alola is a little... underwhelming. In Smash, Alola has 10 Pokeball Pokemon, 6 tracks (some of which are considered the some of the weaker ones and inferior to their original counterparts), and about 14 spirits (not counting Partner Pikachu and Eevee), that's not a ton of content for a major new Nintendo release. Likewise, we have Incineroar, a character who doesn't really reference his source material that in depth and has a questionable longevity for future Smash games. It's kinda clear that Sakurai didn't really click with Alola that closely and chose to prioritize other stuff, but that's alright. Ultimate is still an amazing game I wouldn't trade for anything. There's more a region's worth than it's representation in Smash. Plus, Alola is still doing better Unova and Hoenn. How Alola will be represented in future Smash games is kinda up in the air, but that's a problem for tomorrow.