Day, Night, and Dusk - Lycanroc for Smash Bros. Ultimate

Guynamednelson

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Ultimate's relationship with Alola is a little... underwhelming
This is among the reasons why I'm salty. It's like Kalos got the VIP treatment while Alola gets sloppy seconds. They tweaked Pikachu's Final Smash but didn't consider Catastropika?
 

Garteam

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This is among the reasons why I'm salty. It's like Kalos got the VIP treatment while Alola gets sloppy seconds. They tweaked Pikachu's Final Smash but didn't consider Catastropika?
It is kinda weird how underplayed Z-Moves are in Smash. Only Incineroar got his, when nearly every Pokemon without a Mega could've got one. Especially Jigglypuff, who's using a made-up final smash that doubles as being the worst in the game.
 

SmashNStache

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I've been a little tardy with this thread recently, so I apologize for that.

It does seem that, beyond some miracle, things are most likely curtains for Lycanroc in Smash. That being said, I wouldn't say Lycanroc didn't leave a legacy. He still stands as a defining icon of Alola, the second most popular rock-type after Tyranitar, Ash's main Pokemon for the region, and the one who finally broke the Pokemon League curse. That last one in particular is pretty big, as it makes me think that Lycanroc will may get a second wind a decade from now, when kids who grew up watching the Alola anime and Lycanroc become major parts of the Pokemon community, similar to how Sceptile got a second wind about a decade after RSE.

Even then, that's also not to say we didn't leave some sort of legacy behind. We fostered a community that I am more than proud to be part of and I have enjoyed immensely. The fact we were able to outlast and outgrow basically every other Gen 7 Pokemon on this board definitely means something. Even Incineroar, the Pokemon who actually got in, had his social thread go the way of the Dodo a few months after release. In terms of a more tangential result, the fact that Lycanroc was one of the first Pokemon announced to be returning with the Isle of Armour means Game Freak has to be somewhat aware of his popularity.

Ultimate's relationship with Alola is a little... underwhelming. In Smash, Alola has 10 Pokeball Pokemon, 6 tracks (some of which are considered the some of the weaker ones and inferior to their original counterparts), and about 14 spirits (not counting Partner Pikachu and Eevee), that's not a ton of content for a major new Nintendo release. Likewise, we have Incineroar, a character who doesn't really reference his source material that in depth and has a questionable longevity for future Smash games. It's kinda clear that Sakurai didn't really click with Alola that closely and chose to prioritize other stuff, but that's alright. Ultimate is still an amazing game I wouldn't trade for anything. There's more a region's worth than it's representation in Smash. Plus, Alola is still doing better Unova and Hoenn. How Alola will be represented in future Smash games is kinda up in the air, but that's a problem for tomorrow.
As someone who supported Incineroar through this whole thing, I like how you all stuck to your guns and supported Lycanroc through and through. And honestly, I wouldn't count him out just yet! And even if it doesn't work out, he left a very, very good mark on Gen 7! One that definitely won't be forgotten anytime soon!

I will say I have noticed a lack of action in our thead, but there is a bit more to that. Ah, but this isn't the thread for that!

Keep your heads held high. You all clearly care for Lycanroc from what I can see, and I can definitely respect that!
 

Kremling Man

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I ain't going anywhere once the DLC is done I'll take my leave don't know if Lycanroc is coming but I adore this rock wolf and it's many awesome forms so I want to continue my support in any way I can.
 
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Guynamednelson

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And honestly, I wouldn't count him out just yet!
In order for that to be the case, more Pokemon fans need to take a cue from Fire Emblem fans, where getting your favorite character in is more important than the "balance" of the roster or the game they're from already being repped or treating characters like they're functions. IMO it'd be easier to get Edelgard, Claude, AND Dimitri into the game than it is Decidueye, Lycanroc, OR Mimikyu.
I will say I have noticed a lack of action in our thead, but there is a bit more to that. Ah, but this isn't the thread for that!
Admittedly I wouldn't visit the Zacian/Zamazenta thread had it not been for the Lycanroc fans migrating there.
 
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LukeRNG

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I've been a little tardy with this thread recently, so I apologize for that.

It does seem that, beyond some miracle, things are most likely curtains for Lycanroc in Smash. That being said, I wouldn't say Lycanroc didn't leave a legacy. He still stands as a defining icon of Alola, the second most popular rock-type after Tyranitar, Ash's main Pokemon for the region, and the one who finally broke the Pokemon League curse. That last one in particular is pretty big, as it makes me think that Lycanroc will may get a second wind a decade from now, when kids who grew up watching the Alola anime and Lycanroc become major parts of the Pokemon community, similar to how Sceptile got a second wind about a decade after RSE.

Even then, that's also not to say we didn't leave some sort of legacy behind. We fostered a community that I am more than proud to be part of and I have enjoyed immensely. The fact we were able to outlast and outgrow basically every other Gen 7 Pokemon on this board definitely means something. Even Incineroar, the Pokemon who actually got in, had his social thread go the way of the Dodo a few months after release. In terms of a more tangential result, the fact that Lycanroc was one of the first Pokemon announced to be returning with the Isle of Armour means Game Freak has to be somewhat aware of his popularity.

Ultimate's relationship with Alola is a little... underwhelming. In Smash, Alola has 10 Pokeball Pokemon, 6 tracks (some of which are considered the some of the weaker ones and inferior to their original counterparts), and about 14 spirits (not counting Partner Pikachu and Eevee), that's not a ton of content for a major new Nintendo release. Likewise, we have Incineroar, a character who doesn't really reference his source material that in depth and has a questionable longevity for future Smash games. It's kinda clear that Sakurai didn't really click with Alola that closely and chose to prioritize other stuff, but that's alright. Ultimate is still an amazing game I wouldn't trade for anything. There's more a region's worth than it's representation in Smash. Plus, Alola is still doing better Unova and Hoenn. How Alola will be represented in future Smash games is kinda up in the air, but that's a problem for tomorrow.
-I will say that i really did like both Lycanroc & Torracat the most out of ash's alola team. Lycanroc for it's adorable personality & very interesting problem with rage, while Torracat's backstory feels too real & thankfully breaks the repetitive trend of abandoned fire starters. Really like both of their relationships with Kukui & his Incineroar respectively. Was quite let down that Ash's Incineroar was knocked out right after evolving and never actually battled (also very odd it never participated in a grand trial battle).

-Yeah, that does suck. While i like both Prism Tower & Kalos League stages, it feels... odd for Kalos of all regions to have 2 stages, especially above Kanto (not counting Pokemon Stadium 1 & 2). Even more so given that X & Y weren't well recieved by fans for it's barebones story and being too easy.
I get that they only added new stages from new series & from Odyssey & Breath of the Wild, but it felt odd having Incineroar invade Punch Out (makes sense, but still). At least a stage based in a stationary location on Poni Island would've been enough.
In most games we tend to just get music from most recent games: Melee was gen 1 & 2, Brawl had Gen 3 & 4 pre-platinum, Smash 4 had gen 4 post Platinum, gen 5 & gen 6 pre-ORAS & Ultimate has gen 6 post ORAS & gen 7 pre-USUM. So other than new pokeball assists, i don't see any more love for alola in future smash games.
 

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I wonder...perhaps the reason Alola got so little content in its Smash appearance compared to Kalos or Sinnoh is because Ultimate committed so hard to bringing back as much old content as possible. Being able to tout "EVERYONE IS HERE" was a jaw dropper, but it came with a cost, in this case a relative lack of new content aside from new fighters and spirit battles.

A cost that isn't really brought up much...which goes to show how powerful nostalgia can be, I suppose, if it can overpower or at least balance out most people's concerns over less new content than in past games.

Kukui and (Midday) Lycanroc are having a Spotlight Scout coming soon in Pokémon Masters, for anyone interested and still playing that game (like myself):

Yeah, so that's two forms in Masters now. Seems like Kukui & Midday are kind of a hybrid debuff support/cleanup role, with blazing speed and surprisingly decent bulk complemented by two moves that lower a target's stats and a skill that lets them pull off rapid fire Accelerocks when conditions are met. Their sync move will probably become more useful over time when hazards and terrain are used more often.

Someone who plays Masters would be able to tell you more, though. My phone isn't capable of running it and I hear it's a grindfest as-is, though apparently the devs are trying to improve things.
 
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LukeRNG

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I wonder...perhaps the reason Alola got so little content in its Smash appearance compared to Kalos or Sinnoh is because Ultimate committed so hard to bringing back as much old content as possible. Being able to tout "EVERYONE IS HERE" was a jaw dropper, but it came with a cost, in this case a relative lack of new content aside from new fighters and spirit battles.

A cost that isn't really brought up much...which goes to show how powerful nostalgia can be, I suppose, if it can overpower or at least balance out most people's concerns over less new content than in past games.


Yeah, so that's two forms in Masters now. Seems like Kukui & Midday are kind of a hybrid debuff support/cleanup role, with blazing speed and surprisingly decent bulk complemented by two moves that lower a target's stats and a skill that lets them pull off rapid fire Accelerocks when conditions are met. Their sync move will probably become more useful over time when hazards and terrain are used more often.

Someone who plays Masters would be able to tell you more, though. My phone isn't capable of running it and I hear it's a grindfest as-is, though apparently the devs are trying to improve things.
Which granted, gave them time to fully polish the gameplay and add many great multiplayer modes like Squad Strike & Smashdown. Also having all stages available for 8-player is great.
Though there's some odd stage exclusions and additions: Pac-Land over Pac-Maze, 2 mario circuits over Rainbow Road, no Jungle Hijinx, no Woolly World.
 

False Sense

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I wonder...perhaps the reason Alola got so little content in its Smash appearance compared to Kalos or Sinnoh is because Ultimate committed so hard to bringing back as much old content as possible. Being able to tout "EVERYONE IS HERE" was a jaw dropper, but it came with a cost, in this case a relative lack of new content aside from new fighters and spirit battles.
I thought that was known?

I mean, the only new stages we got were exclusively for the characters from brand new series as well as Odyssey and BotW, two massive releases. Anything else just wasn't high priority.

Of course, SuMo did get more representation in the form of Pokeball summons, but no one seems to really count that.
 

Guynamednelson

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over Rainbow Road, no Jungle Hijinx
The former must've been excluded alongside Mute City for a similar reason: Stages with the premise of "Tour around a Mario Kart/F-Zero track, watch out for racers" were already present in Smash for Wii U.

With the latter, stage morphing should've been an obvious reason.
Of course, SuMo did get more representation in the form of Pokeball summons, but no one seems to really count that.
I actually consider Poke Balls to be another way in which Pokemon was neglected this time despite 10 fighters. From none of them getting promoted to none being replaced with more iconic/modern Pokemon to the new AT mechanics not applying to them.
 
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Cosmic77

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I'll be the one guy who says the SuMo representation was actually pretty good.

I'd even go as far as to say it's right smack in the middle in terms of how well every Gen was repped. It's definitely gotten better treatment than Gen III. Gen II technically has a stage specifically from the games, but nothing from Johto is referenced in it. Gen II has a Pikachu clone, a few Pokeball Pokemon, and a handful of Spirits, so at worst, Gen VII is an equal. Then there's Gen V, which has a stage and no character, whereas Gen VII is the inverse. I'd argue character > stage. Also, Gen VIII has more music than any of the Gens mentioned above.

And of course, it's currently beating Gen VIII too. That's not up for dispute.
 

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Gen II has a Pikachu clone, a few Pokeball Pokemon, and a handful of Spirits, so at worst, Gen VII is an equal.
At least gen 2 got its mascot playable. If they had time to make a more unique rep during Melee's development, Pichu would still be on the table. If they had time to make something that didn't require a human animation skeleton, Incineroar would not.
I'd argue character > stage
Not when that stage represents that gen better than Incineroar represents Alola.

I think the only reason you think gen 7's representation is good is because Incineroar complies with your belief that characters are just functions, but also must promote the latest installment of a Nintendo game's series. Hell for someone who's called starters bland, safe choices before I'm surprised you wouldn't be harder on Incineroar instead of loving it for being a Pokemon added during its gen.
 
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Cosmic77

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At least gen 2 got its mascot playable. If they had time to make a more unique rep during Melee's development, Pichu would still be on the table. If they had time to make something that didn't require a human animation skeleton, Incineroar would not.

Not when that stage represents that gen better than Incineroar represents Alola.

I think the only reason you think gen 7's representation is good is because Incineroar complies with your belief that characters are just functions, but also must promote the latest installment of a Nintendo game's series.

Gen VIII content in Smash Ultimate:

1/10 characters.
0/7 stages
6/33 music tracks
11/55 Pokeball Pokemon
14/162 Spirits

Looking at it like this, it's really not that bad. Gen I is the only Gen with more than one character, so it's fine in that regard. It doesn't have any stages, but they compensated by giving us 6 remixes. That's pretty good considering how Gen I is the only Gen to have more remixes. It's also tied with XY in terms of music altogether. Approximately ⅕ of the Pokeball Pokemon are from Gen VIII; that's equal to Gen I. Spirits are a little skimpy at first glance, but it's actually one more than XY.

I'm not saying it got handled better than XY, but I wouldn't say it's subpar either. Gens I, IV, and VII are the only Gens I'd argue got it better.
 

Cosmic77

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However, quality matters as well, not just quantity.
I know you hate Incineroar, but you have to understand that quality is subjective.

I'm sure there's quite a few Decidueye supporters who would argue that Decidueye would represent Gen VII better than Incineroar, even though both Pokemon have an identical role and Incineroar was promoted far more often than Decidueye. Incineroar was far from the worst choice.

If it's not Incineroar or anything involving characters, then I'd still disagree. I think they chose some of the best music tracks and Pokemon for Pokeballs. There were a few more Spirits I would've liked to have seen, but what we got isn't bad by any means.
 

Cyborg Sun

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A cost that isn't really brought up much...which goes to show how powerful nostalgia can be, I suppose, if it can overpower or at least balance out most people's concerns over less new content than in past games..
Guilty as charged, lol. Of course, it helps that having every veteran was my pipe dream back when we knew nothing about "Smash for Switch"...
 

RandomAce

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I wonder...perhaps the reason Alola got so little content in its Smash appearance compared to Kalos or Sinnoh is because Ultimate committed so hard to bringing back as much old content as possible. Being able to tout "EVERYONE IS HERE" was a jaw dropper, but it came with a cost, in this case a relative lack of new content aside from new fighters and spirit battles.

A cost that isn't really brought up much...which goes to show how powerful nostalgia can be, I suppose, if it can overpower or at least balance out most people's concerns over less new content than in past games.


Yeah, so that's two forms in Masters now. Seems like Kukui & Midday are kind of a hybrid debuff support/cleanup role, with blazing speed and surprisingly decent bulk complemented by two moves that lower a target's stats and a skill that lets them pull off rapid fire Accelerocks when conditions are met. Their sync move will probably become more useful over time when hazards and terrain are used more often.

Someone who plays Masters would be able to tell you more, though. My phone isn't capable of running it and I hear it's a grindfest as-is, though apparently the devs are trying to improve things.
Tbh, that’s one of my main gripes with Ultimate.

When it comes to a new Smash game, I’m usually interested in the new content that’s added to smash, and seeing a lot of rehashed stuff although updated doesn’t give me that same feeling. If it were up to me, I’d still keep the everyone is here aspect, but I’d rather have the team go for a rebuilding of the stage list, and make sure that not only do the stages help represent their series well but also have unique mechanics and are filled with references and cameos from other characters.

A lot of stages in Smash already do this, but there’s also plenty where I feel haven’t been able to be fleshed out, and this is especially true for the older stages. One of the things I liked about the DLC stages is how other characters from the games their stage is based on appear in the background and I want more of those in Smash since many stages feel barren.
 

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At least gen 2 got its mascot playable. If they had time to make a more unique rep during Melee's development, Pichu would still be on the table. If they had time to make something that didn't require a human animation skeleton, Incineroar would not.
I don't really like how you make that claim with no proof to back it up. For all we know, developing Incineroar could've been more inticing than Decidueye or any other gen 7 pokemon in Sakurai's mind. The way you said that statement about Incineroar makes it seem like you know for certain that's how it happened when I'm sure no one knows how Sakurai picked the pokemon character.

Though I'm also a tad baffled with his reason to add Incineroar as just ''I wanted to add a wrestling type of character'': it's not very satisfying. At this point it doesn't matter, Incineroar is in and will stay relevant till Ultimate runs it's course.
 
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Guynamednelson

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At this point it doesn't matter, Incineroar is in and will stay relevant till Ultimate runs it's course.
So? Why should I be forced to deal with it when FE Awakening fans who thought Chrom was the right choice didn't submit to Robin?
 

Delzethin

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Shouldn't be too long until we get a proper Nintendo Direct, I'd bet. Wonder if or when we'll learn more about the Isle of Armor?

Gen VIII content in Smash Ultimate:

1/10 characters.
0/7 stages
6/33 music tracks
11/55 Pokeball Pokemon
14/162 Spirits

Looking at it like this, it's really not that bad. Gen I is the only Gen with more than one character, so it's fine in that regard. It doesn't have any stages, but they compensated by giving us 6 remixes. That's pretty good considering how Gen I is the only Gen to have more remixes. It's also tied with XY in terms of music altogether. Approximately ⅕ of the Pokeball Pokemon are from Gen VIII; that's equal to Gen I. Spirits are a little skimpy at first glance, but it's actually one more than XY.

I'm not saying it got handled better than XY, but I wouldn't say it's subpar either. Gens I, IV, and VII are the only Gens I'd argue got it better.
Granted, Gens 3 and 5 were in the spotlight in between the development of two Smash games, so they ended up missing out in ways we're all too familiar with. Gen 7's comparatively sparse content compared to 1, 4, and 6 feels...sort of like what Gen 2 got in Melee, I guess? Gen 2 had less content overall, but Melee was a smaller game.

Hm. Melee didn't devote much to Gen 2 because development was famously rushed and focused on just getting done on time, Ultimate didn't devote much to Gen 7 and much of its development was focused on bringing back as much old content as possible. Both had bigger picture things that diverted attention away from newer content. Wonder if there's a correlation there.

So? Why should I be forced to deal with it when FE Awakening fans who thought Chrom was the right choice didn't submit to Robin?
That wasn't how it happened. The Robin and Chrom support groups got along with each other pretty well for the most part, and when Robin got confirmed and Chrom got dunked on in the reveal trailer, a lot of us gave them our condolences. Most of the hostility came from outside the support groups, both from Gematsu leak bandwagoners who only jumped onboard with Chrom after E3 because they wanted to "win"...and from some fans of characters who weren't in the Gematsu leaks who took things too far when the leaks proved fallible.

It was a different situation.
 
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Guynamednelson

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That wasn't how it happened. The Robin and Chrom support groups got along with each other pretty well for the most part, and when Robin got confirmed and Chrom got dunked on in the reveal trailer, a lot of us gave them our condolences. Most of the hostility came from outside the support groups, both from Gematsu leak bandwagoners who only jumped onboard with Chrom after E3 because they wanted to "win"...and from some fans of characters who weren't in the Gematsu leaks who took things too far when the leaks proved fallible.

It was a different situation.
I don't mean that they hated Robin, let alone hate them as much as I hate Incineroar. I mean that they stuck to supporting Chrom regardless of how much more unique Robin's moveset is or how fun they are or Awakening already being repped or whatever, resulting in the Mii costume during Smash 4's DLC followed by the echo in Ultimate. You don't see that with Pokemon-people are hoping for a gen 8 quota to be filled out rather than sticking to their preferences from earlier gens. It's why I think it'd be easier to get the three house leaders to be playable than just one more Alola rep.
 
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SwitchButton

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So? Why should I be forced to deal with it when FE Awakening fans who thought Chrom was the right choice didn't submit to Robin?
You shouldn't. Imo you have every right to resist a character who seems like a bad addition. Blind, uncriticized consumerism is extremely toxic. Its good that you want to make your own opinion heard. Your voice is VALID.

That wasn't how it happened. The Robin and Chrom support groups got along with each other pretty well for the most part, and when Robin got confirmed and Chrom got dunked on in the reveal trailer, a lot of us gave them our condolences. Most of the hostility came from outside the support groups, both from Gematsu leak bandwagoners who only jumped onboard with Chrom after E3 because they wanted to "win"...and from some fans of characters who weren't in the Gematsu leaks who took things too far when the leaks proved fallible.

It was a different situation.
No offense but you're not exactly a reliable source of information when it comes to FE's controversial relationship with Smash considering you kinda built your entire youtube career around doing damage control for FE.
 

AEMehr

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You shouldn't. Imo you have every right to resist a character who seems like a bad addition. Blind, uncriticized consumerism is extremely toxic. Its good that you want to make your own opinion heard. Your voice is VALID.
Your voice can be valid as long you don't be an ******* about it.

Evidently people can be okay with Byleth getting in l, even if they would rather have another character instead. There are far more important matters to expend so much general distaste for than another Fire Emblem character getting in, even if it was the specific character you didn't ask for.
No offense but you're not exactly a reliable source of information when it comes to FE's controversial relationship with Smash considering you kinda built your entire youtube career around doing damage control for FE.
I don't understand the point of this jab you made at him it makes no sense.

Just because he did a video about why Corrin isn't as bad as people were shaming him to be doesn't disqualify his opinion on an entirely separate scenario lol. Also, side note, no offense to Del here, but I'm pretty sure he would probably tell you himself that his character concepts are what brought a lot of traction to his youtube. But that's merely going off on views alone...


Regardless, what in the world does any of this discussion have to do with Lycanroc. You guys should be talking about Lycanroc here how did we get to this point lol.

I like the idea of a stance changer in Lycanroc, but the Pokémon doesn't exactly do that y'know? It just has three forms it can turn into. Urishifu gets that idea tossed around but again they're two forms the Kubfu can become. So I don't think either would logistically be designed to play in that fashion. Such a playstyle would probably better fit Meloetta or something.

Realistically of course the thing Urshifu has over the Lycanroc is that relevancy situation. Which as I'm sure you guys know is like the key thing when it comes to selecting a Pokémon usually
 

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Your voice can be valid as long you don't be an ******* about it.

Evidently people can be okay with Byleth getting in l, even if they would rather have another character instead. There are far more important matters to expend so much general distaste for than another Fire Emblem character getting in, even if it was the specific character you didn't ask for.
I don't understand the point of this jab you made at him it makes no sense.

Just because he did a video about why Corrin isn't as bad as people were shaming him to be doesn't disqualify his opinion on an entirely separate scenario lol. Also, side note, no offense to Del here, but I'm pretty sure he would probably tell you himself that his character concepts are what brought a lot of traction to his youtube. But that's merely going off on views alone...


Regardless, what in the world does any of this discussion have to do with Lycanroc. You guys should be talking about Lycanroc here how did we get to this point lol.

I like the idea of a stance changer in Lycanroc, but the Pokémon doesn't exactly do that y'know? It just has three forms it can turn into. Urishifu gets that idea tossed around but again they're two forms the Kubfu can become. So I don't think either would logistically be designed to play in that fashion. Such a playstyle would probably better fit Meloetta or something.

Realistically of course the thing Urshifu has over the Lycanroc is that relevancy situation. Which as I'm sure you guys know is like the key thing when it comes to selecting a Pokémon usually
Ultimately the moveset we ended up commissioning has the moveset solely focus on Lycanroc's Dusk form with the main mechanic being a rage form. And yeah, we know Lycanroc's ship has most likely sailed.

So? Why should I be forced to deal with it when FE Awakening fans who thought Chrom was the right choice didn't submit to Robin?
You shouldn't, but it's becoming quite frequent the amount of times you mention Incineroar. You can dislike him all you want but let's not get into talking or constantly bashing a single character. If you feel you don't mention him too often then don't take me too seriously.

Also, I apologize if I came off as a jerk with the last post. What I was trying to express and failed was that Incineroar got into smash and nothing could be done about it. Couldn't tell if the bashing was to laugh about it or if you genuinely still feel resentment.
 
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Kremling Man

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Finally saw the latest episodes. Really enjoyed the battles I’m really happy for Ash. His battles with Hau, Guzma, and Gladion were awesome glad Lycanroc got him the first league win. Congratulations Ash!
 

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but it's becoming quite frequent the amount of times you mention Incineroar.
Understandable.

In me-not-being-salty news, I got Kukui+Lycanroc on my first try in Pokemon Masters. Can't say the same about Leaf+Eevee.
 

Delzethin

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Regardless, what in the world does any of this discussion have to do with Lycanroc. You guys should be talking about Lycanroc here how did we get to this point lol.

I like the idea of a stance changer in Lycanroc, but the Pokémon doesn't exactly do that y'know? It just has three forms it can turn into. Urishifu gets that idea tossed around but again they're two forms the Kubfu can become. So I don't think either would logistically be designed to play in that fashion. Such a playstyle would probably better fit Meloetta or something.

Realistically of course the thing Urshifu has over the Lycanroc is that relevancy situation. Which as I'm sure you guys know is like the key thing when it comes to selecting a Pokémon usually
For what it's worth, the multi-form stance thing was just one of several ideas we had, and not one we brought up often because it went against canon for the exact reasons you mention. The biggest draw was always being an earthbender on a roster that utterly lacks the element to far (Not that we need one, but being the first to utilize something is a surefire way to be interesting!) and (for two of the forms) being the first fully quadrupedal fighter that doesn't rely on additional stuff like Ivysaur's prehensile vines or Duck Hunt's, well, duck. Either would've been unique on their own, but combined? There was something legitimately compelling there. And that's not even getting into more distinct stuff like the fury state the Dusk form could've used, based on a combination of species lore and Ash's Lycanroc in the anime. Conditional, short lasting buffs to the entire moveset's frame data would've allowed players to pivot from punish-based to pressure-based fighting for quick bursts of oppressive offense and damage!

But, as you also said, with series like these whose main casts rotate with each new game--Pokémon, Fire Emblem, Xenoblade to an extent--it's all about being relevant at the right time. For us, it seems like we were too late for the base game (since the form that ended up really important wasn't a thing until almost a year into Gen 7, wouldn't have had its design and details finalized yet in mid-2016 when Sakurai came knocking, and delaying development on a newcomer by several months simply wasn't an option) and too early for Season 1 of DLC.

So we're just kinda sticking around and observing things because it'd be a waste to just up and leave. We can keep tabs on Smash news, support other characters with similar traits (most of us here also frequent the Zacian & Zamazenta thread), and anxiously await Lycanroc's Gen 8 debut in the Isle of Armor expansion. And who knows, maybe Pokkén 2 will turn out to be a thing after all?
 
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Guynamednelson

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But, as you also said, with series like these whose main casts rotate with each new game--Pokémon, Fire Emblem, Xenoblade to an extent--it's all about being relevant at the right time.
Even from relevancy standpoint, Sakurai should look beyond "what generation is the newest" when mobile games are bigger than SS, Midday Lycanroc was recently added to Masters, Lycanroc was shown as an example of who would be added to Galar...

It's not just Lycanroc either. It shouldn't be hard to look up popularity polls or find out what gen was recently added to Go or whatever. When we got people who'd eat it up just for being Pokemon and/or Smash content, why not?
 
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LukeRNG

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Even from relevancy standpoint, Sakurai should look beyond "what generation is the newest" when mobile games are bigger than SS, Midday Lycanroc was recently added to Masters, Lycanroc was shown as an example of who would be added to Galar...

It's not just Lycanroc either. It shouldn't be hard to look up popularity polls or find out what gen was recently added to Go or whatever. When we got people who'd eat it up just for being Pokemon and/or Smash content, why not?
It's a real shame to just ditch pokemon from older gens just because they aren't the new thing. There's a lot of pokemon who could've been very unique and distinct from the rest of the characters. Pokemon trainer was the only exception, but hey it's because gen 1 so it's fine.

If only more of the smash audience actually cared about supporting a pokemon they personally like rather than just the one that's most talked about or they think is the most likely. If people could get their fan favorites with high demand then pokemon should be no different.
The only pokemon with the most consistent support is Sceptile, and even then it get nowhere near as much support as other characters did back in smash 4 and especially now. And even then, many people would use the whole ''to complete the starter trio'' argument which is so shallow.

It'll be interesting to see where the second season of dlc will go in terms of 1st party picks.
 
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Guynamednelson

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If only more of the smash audience actually cared about supporting a pokemon they personally like rather than just the one that's most talked about or they think is the most likely. If people could get their fan favorites with high demand then pokemon should be no different.
To be fair, Scizor's return to Poke Balls seems to be a response to fan demand for a different Gen 2 rep. While I am a Pichu apologist, I can at least appreciate them not giving up just because it wasn't from the newest gen/remake.

In regards to first parties, I wonder if they would be focused on filling out gaps in series representation, because Byleth fills out these:
  • No content from Three Houses
  • No axe/lance/bow user
  • Lack of Down-Bs that aren't counters
  • Lack of stages, especially ones that are specific locations from specific games
And, well, let's see. Kirby lacks a fighter and stage that's more relevant to the modern era. DK no longer has a Returns stage, and Sakurai has yet to go back to making Dixie. Sakurai's apparently-too-late interest in ARMS didn't result in a stage nor music. Golden Sun's spirits are solely focused on main protagonists/party members. Splatoon is primarily focused on 1 and completely ignores the Octo Expansion.
 
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Delzethin

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In regards to first parties, I wonder if they would be focused on filling out gaps in series representation, because Byleth fills out these:
  • No content from Three Houses
  • No axe/lance/bow user
  • Lack of Down-Bs that aren't counters
  • Lack of stages, especially ones that are specific locations from specific games
And, well, let's see. Kirby lacks a fighter and stage that's more relevant to the modern era. DK no longer has a Returns stage, and Sakurai has yet to go back to making Dixie. Sakurai's apparently-too-late interest in ARMS didn't result in a stage nor music. Golden Sun's spirits are solely focused on main protagonists/party members. Splatoon is primarily focused on 1 and completely ignores the Octo Expansion.
According to Sakurai, one of the big reasons they went with Byleth was because adding a very new character is itself something different and unique. The rest went from there--Byleth's multi-weapon moveset comes from the ability to use any weapon type in Three Houses with proper training (and a desire to make them more than just a swordfighter), a stage based on Garreg Mach Monastery just made sense (the only other good pick from 3H would've been Gronder Field), and the lack of spirits and other content from 3H beforehand is probably because other spirit events around the time were set up around when development on Byleth began, if not some time after.

We need to remember, the whole "representation" angle is a bigger deal for fans than it is for the actual Smash developers. It gets thrown around so much that it's treated as if it must be true, but the roster isn't meant to be some measurement of which franchises or characters matter most. Any arguments reliant on something needing the correct amount of representation or the like are missing the point. This is why I put more emphasis on uniqueness, because the ability to do something new and interesting is something Sakurai has said he looks for in newcomers. Even if things don't always go according to plan.
 
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Guynamednelson

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because the ability to do something new and interesting is something Sakurai has said he looks for in newcomers
It would be more noticeable if he didn't stick to whatever new starter's the most human for the past two games' Pokemon newcomers, or if he wasn't iffy about Japan-only characters, or if there weren't reasons for certain Smash fans to fetishize relevancy in general.
 
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Cosmic77

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Even from relevancy standpoint, Sakurai should look beyond "what generation is the newest" when mobile games are bigger than SS, Midday Lycanroc was recently added to Masters, Lycanroc was shown as an example of who would be added to Galar...

It's not just Lycanroc either. It shouldn't be hard to look up popularity polls or find out what gen was recently added to Go or whatever. When we got people who'd eat it up just for being Pokemon and/or Smash content, why not?
There's two problems with priorizing mobile games.

1. Mobile games are generally designed to be casual "play in-between breaks" games. They're not as engaging as console games, meaning most people aren't as attached to characters in mobile games as they are console games.

2. Mobile games are constantly changing in order to keep people interested. Lycanroc will stick around for a bit, but then it'll be replaced by a different Pokemon. That's a very short window of time for a character that would require several months of work, and I doubt Sakurai would feel comfortable making a character who will only have a few weeks of relevancy. Home console games tend to keep certain Pokemon relevant for 3-4 years
 

Guynamednelson

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and I doubt Sakurai would feel comfortable making a character who will only have a few weeks of relevancy
He shouldn't feel concerns about relevancy when we're talking about a franchise that's far too big to just stick to whatever new starter's the most human for newcomers.
 

Guynamednelson

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Isn't Delphox more human than Greninja?
Still, you should know what I mean. You talk about starters being bland and safe, but give sticking to the latest gen a free pass.
 

Delzethin

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On a less argumentative note, as of right now we have officially hit 3,000 total posts! It may not be anywhere near the prize we'd hoped, but hey, it's something.

We've really gone through a lot since the start of the thread, haven't we? How have you all felt you've changed or developed, as Smash players or in general, since you first found your way here?
 
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