Dare I say it? Are there techniques that we are glad or would be glad to see gone?

[Tristan_win]

The only thing I wouldn't miss would be wobbling everything else it's sad to see go.

 

[CFMV]

Ice Climbers' infinite grab, Fox's/Falco's infinite shine, Falco's drill kick, DK's B-punch, Samus' blast... Generally all those techniques that are unbalanced and unfair for 1 vs. 1. I don't like it when you can't do anything but watch your character getting punished. Every technique should have a counter - in Melee it isn't always the case.

lol, you think Dk's B-punch and Samus's charge shot are unfair? n00b

 

[TheOfficialSonicFanboy]

I notice everyone posting is fighting for techniques that relate to their main or sub main characters. I'm going to miss Falco's dair, but we're kidding ourselves. Moves like that had a strong advantage at competitions will (most likely) be removed.
Honestly, I'm glad they removed wavedashing because it makes the game accessible to a lot more people, then I won't have people complaining about me "sliding across the floor and stuff".
It's much more fun to beat people straight up. It's more honorable too.
I'll just be mad if this game relies on luck too much.

 

[Rose Monkey]

lol I love how any thread with with the words "wavedashing" in it never fail to produce a ****storm.

 

[Mama]

Ice Climbers' infinite grab, Fox's/Falco's infinite shine, Falco's drill kick, DK's B-punch, Samus' blast... Generally all those techniques that are unbalanced and unfair for 1 vs. 1. I don't like it when you can't do anything but watch your character getting punished. Every technique should have a counter - in Melee it isn't always the case.

Don't know how I missed this post my first time checking out this thread....

The only thing I'd even agree with is the Ice Climbers grab lock since that doesn't have that big a space for error (your pretty much just need rhythm.) Everything else you mentioned only served to degrade you. If you don't like getting it handed to you then get better. Theres always a way out of things though I'm still baffled as to why you would even list DK and Samus charge moves....

The game doesn't know your simple minded values of what is cheap and what is fair. The game acknowledges victory and shuns the loser not the person who was cheap. Start thinking like the game and not a child.

 

[Knight-errant]

SSB64: a popular game with a few advanced techs that sold well with scattered tournaments every so often.

SSBM: an incredibly deep game that sold very well, spawned an internet site with over 70,000 members, has had mlg tournaments, and continues to this day (6 years after it's release) to have tournaments around the world and people still discussing the metagame.

see a differnce now? thought so.

My brothers and I were playing SSB64 all the time...that is, until we got SSBM. I think if we hadn't gotten SSBM, then we'd STILL be playing SSB64. It doesn't have to do with the old version not being good, it just has to do with a new version coming out.

In the same way, I think less people will play melee once brawl comes out.

And I've been playing Melee for years, and I didn't find out about advance techs until a few months ago...so the game doesn't have to be "deep" to be fun and last a long time.

 

[Acryte]

I love how some people think losing depth to the gameplay is good because it makes it more fair against crappy players... Crappy players will be oblivious to the advanced techs, so it doesn't matter if they are included, and the good players don't give a **** about proving themselves and contiuously playing against crappy players anyways. How many people go setup a gamecube at a local game store when they want to play smash instead of playing against people they know are good? Who cares if someone complains you are cheap when you probably don't even want to play against them except for if you simply want to prove to them you can beat them flat out. (Which would have been proved)

I don't care about if someone doesn't like wavedashing because the majority of people who are oblivious to Lcancelling, wavedashing, etc... suck and I have no desire to play against them since the only thing you can do is get crappier by throwing out obvious moves that would never work against anyone who is good. Seriously, I have no desire to play scrubs in any fighting game unless it's a matter of completely dominating them and walking off like a badass.

 

[lavamage]

I don't care to much about techs being gone, the only teach I really used was edgehogging. Personally, I think a match would be better with good ol' sheilding and rolling.

 

[ThatOtherGuy]

The only one I'd definitely like to see go is the IC's freeze glitch. I'm ambivalent about wobbling. Other than that, I can't think of anything. Even though I never use it, it's weird that B in the air apparently can't turn you around anymore.

 

[Phlemingo]

Short Hop Laser (Falco)

 

[Nike]

My brothers and I were playing SSB64 all the time...that is, until we got SSBM. I think if we hadn't gotten SSBM, then we'd STILL be playing SSB64. It doesn't have to do with the old version not being good, it just has to do with a new version coming out.

In the same way, I think less people will play melee once brawl comes out.

And I've been playing Melee for years, and I didn't find out about advance techs until a few months ago...so the game doesn't have to be "deep" to be fun and last a long time.

it has to do with the sequel being superior, not just new compared to the original. watch, if brawl is shallow people will play it for awhile, get bored and either quit smashing or go back to melee.

some people can keep doing the same old **** all the time, but as for me melee was boring until the advanced techs.

I love how some people think losing depth to the gameplay is good because it makes it more fair against crappy players... Crappy players will be oblivious to the advanced techs, so it doesn't matter if they are included, and the good players don't give a **** about proving themselves and contiuously playing against crappy players anyways. How many people go setup a gamecube at a local game store when they want to play smash instead of playing against people they know are good? Who cares if someone complains you are cheap when you probably don't even want to play against them except for if you simply want to prove to them you can beat them flat out. (Which would have been proved)

I don't care about if someone doesn't like wavedashing because the majority of people who are oblivious to Lcancelling, wavedashing, etc... suck and I have no desire to play against them since the only thing you can do is get crappier by throwing out obvious moves that would never work against anyone who is good. Seriously, I have no desire to play scrubs in any fighting game unless it's a matter of completely dominating them and walking off like a badass.

<3

 

[Knight-errant]

it has to do with the sequel being superior, not just new compared to the original. watch, if brawl is shallow people will play it for awhile, get bored and either quit smashing or go back to melee.

some people can keep doing the same old **** all the time, but as for me melee was boring until the advanced techs.

Well, I don't think you have to worry too much about the game getting boring, or for it having it's OWN set of advanced techniques for that matter. Sakurai has put so much more into this game, and that will make it last awhile. He's also hinted at a lot at new techniques (he just hasn't revealed many of them).

So, no worries ^_^ Brawl will have plenty for you.

 

[simplicityho]

it's comments like these that make me remember y i never go into brawl discussion. i really can't believe there are people on this earth who think this way.

if u want a game with a bunch of nintendo characters, that u can enjoy with friends and the winner will always be a random person go get urself a copy of mario party. advanced techs are a large part of y melee has enjoyed such popularity and replay value. if u don't wanna use them fine, but remember that these are what made melee a reknowned game. i know without them i would have stopped playing years ago.

to the original question i hope chaingrabbing and wobbling are gone.

Perhaps people would take you seriously when you spell properly.

 

[limitbreak]

Chaingrabbing, wobbling, Shinespiking, attacks that send people at horizontal and downward angles(or just make these less deadly). Otherwise nope. Except other stuff that even with DI is impossible to escape.

No wobbling / Chaingrabbing. Shinespiking is ok in my book because it does require some degree of skill. But it would be nice to see it less effective.

 

[Sandwich]

Wobbling terrifies me. I wouldn't mind that being axed for brawl.

 

[trio1000]

chain grabbing is most likely out cuz as a lot of ppl know there is a much improved di so even if you can still chain grab only a ****** would let it happen to him

 

[Paingel]

No, I'm pretty sure that if Brawl is crappy then people will stop playing both Brawl and Melee.

But I hope that's not the case. I just know that people stopped playing Mechcommander after the bad expansion came out. Went from "everyone playing in the same gamein the same room" to "people with classic play in one room while people with expansion play in another" which degraded to "people don't wanna play classic because they want the expansion, but people don't wanna play expansion because it sucks" which finally became "Mechcommander who?"

There's a tendancy among gamers to disregard old games, even if they were better than what is out right now.

But you can always hope against that. I'm just pointing out that history has shown that this particular behavior does tend to happen, and history does tend to repeat itself.

I imagine though.. if Brawl does suck and people wanna keep Melee alive, they'll have to do something other than what MPlayer did. Don't let people think that Melee is dead or somehow outdated. For those who are in charge of larger tournies, make it easy to play both games at the tourny instead of forcing the players to choose one. Like say, have two seperate tournaments: one for Brawl and one for Melee, at the same place and time.

Or.. just hope that Brawl is actually an awesome game, which I really think that it will be, so that this won't even be an issue.

As for ATs... I will sincerily miss Wavedashing. Oh how I'll miss the freedom of gliding across the stage with such speed and ease. If I could slide that well IRL I would never ever walk or run again. But then I might hit a wall... and that would actually hurt...

But I won't miss chaingrabbing or any sort of infinite combo. If you can't break out of it then it may as well just be an insta-KO. Which isn't that bad, mind you, because after your opponent reaches about 150% half of your moveset is an insta-KO. At least with chaingrabbing you can DI to make it not last so long.

 

[MASAHIROx]

lol no johns step that **** up.

come on now

 

[Mambo]

I mean, it's sad that you can basicly only use 3-4 characters and even then limited techniques. I mean it really bores me when it comes down to that. I'm not saying "oh i get beat by this all the time wahhh." I'm saying "I can do it too, but when the tequniques and characters hardly ever change, then it get kinda *yawn*" But I'll resort to any tactics I need to win when I need to.

 

[Paingel]

Well the only real problem that I have with the whole metagame is the fact that, with the unbalances and such in the game most of the characters in Melee are useless, most of the stages in Melee are useless, and ALL of the items in Melee are useless.

I'm not trying to john here. I'm just saying. It seems like most of the work that they put into the game was for naught because certain characters have certain techniques that make the other characters easily beaten.

I mean, when you're buying it, they present it like "ZOMG you can play as ALL of these characters!"

BUT... if you wanna be 1337 zomg awesome (And who doesn't?) you eventually get "Well, you COULD play as any of these characters, but these particular 5 characters are leagues above any others and so the other 20 characters are garbage by comparison. By the way, we were silly enough to think that our game was balanced and thus we never really told you WHICH characters would be high-tier and which ones would be low tier. It's just kinda random whether or not you happen to actually LIKE the lucky high tier ones."

Which is then followed by "Oh but don't worry! We're removing all of those cool ATs that everyone likes to use and we're severely gimping these high tier guys so that they'll be balanced with the 20 other wimps! What's that little guy? You're telling us that these changes don't mean anything because in the end we'll just have yet another tier list with some other guys at the top and with everyone else being too weak to be seriously competitive? Pfft. Come on, kid. We're Nintendo! We're going to make a perfectly balanced and tierless game wihtout ANY bugs or oversights in the physics engine! Just like any other fighting game out there! Am I right?"

Which is followed by me rubbing my forehead to ease the pain of my headache while responding, "No... no you're not."

But then at least that's not as bland as having yet another $50 Rock Paper Scissors game. I understand wanting to have a way to "counter everything", but it seems like there's a better way to achieve that sort of thing other than re-releasing a game that I could already play with just my right hand.

Actually, I guess I'm johning quite a bit. Maybe I should just go to the bathroom and use the johns there....[/badpun]

 

[2007]

I don't mind chaingrabbing, because I love pwning Link.
I am going to miss wavedashing though.
=2007=

 

[Micahc]

Booyeah! Another scrub vs. elitist thread!

 

[DainBramaged]

*reads thread*O_o wow...... >_> no johns....

oh..and @ TheFifthMan

And even then those kills get old fast. Eventually, even these somewhat high technical combos simply becomes like watching John Cena fight: "Same old ****!" and then what?

In smash's defence, seeing the " high technical combos" over and over again, is seeing something skilled, and cool, over and over again...

neither "skill" or "cool" applies to John Cena =P

 

[tshahi10]

i liked wavedashing. i would want waveshining in brawl, but so that the shine always makes the character fall, and cannot be chained all over the stage. i miss reverse neutral b the most though. i didn't like chianthrowing, nor did i like wobbling. i also hate that they srewed up l-cancel, cuase the timing is going to be a bit ricky, and nervous players cant cancel that well

 

[thesage]

Chaingrabbing is so cheap cause it's so easy to learn. Like I learned to do it in one day...

/sarcasm

Your johning cause you lose when you pick Link in a tournament. I play Ness in tournaments and I manage to cover up his faults. That's how you play low tier characters. Usually when people beat me it's because they are actually better than me. >.> I haven't lost to someone worse than me because I play a low tier. Heck sometimes I actually beat people who are better than me with Ness.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

While I dislike people who run around shouting that "advanced tactics should be removed entirely", I am glad that some were removed and many previously difficult tactics are now simple. If those were still around, Brawl would become Melee 2.0. If anyone likes the way Melee was, they should go play Melee. Those same physics should not be directly carried over to Brawl.

 

[True Fool]

For Melee, wavedashing was a handy helper to our good buddies Samus and Luigi (f*ck you IC's and Marth, you abuse the high powers you are given), but it seems as though everything is very well balanced in Brawl (except for Ike), so I think wavedashing in Brawl would be a little messed up, taking away the negative effects of slow/slow-rolling characters. I won't miss it, but I wasn't rooting for it's removal.

Chaingrabbing on the other hand...all I have to say is HAVE FUN IN HELL. I mean, some people are still going to kind of be able to chaingrab, but for the most part it's gone, and I couldn't be more pleased. It was easily my most hated thing about Smash. It was one of the most brain-dead techniques, take about a day to figure out who chaingrabs who, and there, it's about all you need along with one lucky smash attack.

 

[Vincent Vega]

In response to the title: No. </3

 

[skoo]

the only techniques i used were shffl, tech, and dashdance. i main jigglypuff so her WD is bad.

 

[Mutated Arm Dude]

No. Most of the techniques are still in. Oh, you mean those exploits so famously abused. Yeah I'm glad they fixed those up.

 

[Wuth]

I'm not exactly sorry to see Wavedashing gone, and chain-grabbing I can do without (though, I did enjoy abusing it against my friends). I'm a little upset to hear that l canceling is out, but it might not be necessary anymore. Really, I'm just glad we're starting fresh- it's a whole new game with brand new exploits to discover... I just hope none of them become as infamously useful as wavedashing and chaingrabbing. I hate it when techniques like those are discovered. It changes the mechanics of the entire game. and destroys balance (not to say melee was ever balanced, but you know what I mean...). So hopefully the exploits discovered in brawl will be a little more... situational. That is, not all around as useful as wavedashing was. It made it far to easy to chase downed opponents and allowed for a multitude of cheap techniques (waveshining, for instance).

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Response to title: No

Response to thread: No johns

Response to noobs: shut up, no johns.

 

[reelbigfishstix9]

Chaingrabbing is so cheap cause it's so easy to learn. Like I learned to do it in one day...

/sarcasm

Your johning cause you lose when you pick Link in a tournament. I play Ness in tournaments and I manage to cover up his faults. That's how you play low tier characters. Usually when people beat me it's because they are actually better than me. >.> I haven't lost to someone worse than me because I play a low tier. Heck sometimes I actually beat people who are better than me with Ness.

i know this is off topic but i know what ur talking aobut. I always end up fighting low tier characters i usually don't fight and I don't even remember exactly how to fight them. I use a lower tier character myself but whenever i go against a good ness or someone else lower tier, i always cant remember who's moves have priority and what not....

kthx

 

[MookieRah]

I was kinda hoping to see crouch canceling go, but apparently it's still around :-(.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

I was kinda hoping to see crouch canceling go, but apparently it's still around :-(.

Lol, what's so bad about crouch cancelling?

 

[MookieRah]

Mainly just a personal distaste for it. I honestly don't want to try to make a logical argument as to why I hate it when I know that I would just use big words to disguise the fact that I just think it's pretty lame and disruptive. So yeah, I'm not really upset that it's still in, although it's one of the few things in melee that I thought was sorta "meh".

 

[vesperview]

wavedashing FTL!

 

[Vadorojo]

Well, I just finished reading the entire thread and I thought I'd add my point of view.

I've been playing Melee since it's release long, long ago. Winter break was good that year. I still play it whenever I hang out with my gaming friends because it's a fun game ... period. However, my friends and I have never used wavedashing nor most of the AT's. Myself and the other more melee-obsessed friend of mine had heard about them and thought "gee, that sounds cool!" but we kept playing Melee as fairly casual players without looking into HOW or WHY AT's matter.

But then Brawl was announced and I was whipped into a SSB frenzy. I started looking for new sources of Smash information and thus, was lead here to Smashboards. To say the least, my eyes were opened. Even in the past few days, I've watched videos of smash techniques I never dreamed existed (read: moonwalking, lol). I am STUNNED by how deep a game Melee is and I can now see why it has such a dramatic tourney following.

All that being said, I'm presented with a choice: pursue my love for Smash by mastering this newfound world of Melee techniques or simply wait for Brawl.

I'll simply be waiting for Brawl. I've played Melee and had loads of fun with it for the past 8 years as the relatively simple game I understood it to be, but that still involves many of the building blocks that make a more in-depth understanding of Melee fun. To put it simply:

My fun as a "Casual" Melee player: knowing characters, timing, mindgames, all while employing the simple techniques on the surface (rolling, air and land dodging, item catching, etc.)

The fun of a "Tourney" Melee player: mastering characters, timing, mindgames, all while employing the highest-level techniques the Melee engine has to offer (SHFFL'ing, WD, L-cancel, etc.)

The terms of the entertainment remain the same, the language is simply different. I believe the same will hold true for Brawl. If someone who has mastered Fox fights against someone who has mastered Ice Climbers, won't they have a good time? Won't they be using everything at their disposal to outsmart and outplay the opponent (the heart of competition) and won't they be having fun doing so? I'd like to think so.

I struggle to see how a tournament scene for Brawl can possibly fail to exist. Even if every AT from Melee is removed for Brawl, a high level of skill and play can exist, the terms are simply different. For example, the skill will come from knowing the timing on Sonic's DAir so that I can safely strike with my FSmash or mastering Pit's arrows so that I can accurately pester my foes from afar, trying to anticipate their dodges as best I can. If I do these things, I've put myself above the standard "noobs" who pick up a control and start mashing buttons. I've spent time mastering ALL the characters' strengths and weaknesses and I'll use that knowledge to my advantage and (hopefully) to my success in a tournament, with or without the AT's we know and use today.

When I look at Melee, I now realize that I was missing loads of depth and all kinds of different gaming experiences, but the bottom line is that it's simply too early to say if Brawl will have the kind of depth that Melee has. We've had a series of impressions from 2-minute time matches at E-for-All and all the hype from the Dojo ... and nothing more. Who knows if Brawl will have "hidden" techniques that a new generation of players will call glitches or exploits or whatever they want? We'll have to wait and see.

I can understand the fear of some of the tourney-level players who have posted that Brawl will be a "shallow" game, but even if their worst fears are confirmed and it's shallow in a very non-Melee way, Brawl will live on with the Online play and support that Melee wishes it had. After all is said and done, Brawl will be a fun game for many of the same reasons that Melee is a fun game and more (level editor, co-op modes).

And lastly ... Brawl is in the hands of a sly guy—Sakurai. He's not deaf and blind—he knows that Wavedashing and other AT's exist and at some point, he had to decide what to do about those techniques. Wavedashing wasn't discovered until years after Melee's release ... who knows what might be hidden in Brawl's engine?

 

[Micahc]

Vadorojo's post.

I <3 You.

Why can't other people be like this?

 

[brawl1994]

i could care less, cause they will be new techs, that we have never seen b4