Dair to Knee Killzone *Uair combos too* *VIDEO* *Luigi*

[KeyKid19]

Inspired by ZodiakLucien's Combo thread. These are the percents at which Dair combos into Knee AND is possible to be sweetspotted. There are some percents where the combo works but sweetspotting the Knee is impossible. The Uair percentage is the highest possible percentage that you can Uair combo the opponent at. I'm a little skeptical about the Uair numbers because it seems like you could escape them, but the counter in training mode keeps going from one to two at these percents to I guess it's right. The upper numbers on the Knee no combo entries are just estimations really since the character actually falls a smidge before the Knee comes. Therefore it's VERY easily escapable at the upper values of the Knee no combo. At least the less radical numbers actually seem somewhat difficult to escape even if there is no combo.

Mario: 59% - 87% Uair: 107%
DK: 67% - 107% Uair: 136%
Link: 61% - 102% Uair: 117%
Samus: Never combos. Uair: 113% Knee no combo: 41% - 100%
Kirby: Never combos. Uair: 102% Knee no combo: 44% - 87%
Fox: 55% - 85% Uair: 102%
Pikachu: 52% - 89% Uair: 109%
Marth: 59% - 91% Uair: 117%
Game & Watch: 57% - 82% Uair: 99%
Luigi: 59% - 90% Uair: 112%

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsF_zFKyvkY

This video shows the low and high limits of both G&W and Marth, as well as how Samus is in-comboable. lol Uair thrown in as well just for good measure.

I don't know why certain characters never get comboed, but that's how it works. Yet another Brawl mystery. If anyone could help me out with making sure the end percents that I've noted are really inescapable, I would greatly appreciate it. I know the game is saying it's a combo, but to me it looks escapable. Especially the Uair. You don't have to check everything, just like the last 3%-5% of each guy. Thanks in advance.

The best part about the Uair combos is that from where the Knee leaves off to where they are good until is pretty much a killzone. If you pull off a Uair combo at like 106% on Marth near the edge of Final Destinantion, he dies. With DI too *I think*. Computer level 9s DI I know that for a fact, but I don't know if they Smash DI or not. If they do then this stuff is freakin brutal because it will help Falcon's kill game SO much. Experiment with this guys.

NOTE: As you get higher in the percents of the Dair -> Knee, you must start moving more towards the center of your opponent. If you stay out by their edge like on the earlier percents, you will miss with the combo.

NOTE: WE MUST TEST THIS IN REAL MATCH SITUATIONS. IF IT IS TOO EASILY AIR DODGED, THIS IS ALL FOR NOTHING. RIGHT NOW INSTINCT IS ON OUR SIDE BECAUSE EVERYONE WILL AIR DODGE RIGHT INTO IT, BUT IF PEOPLE ADAPT TO IT THEN WE'RE SCREWED. I FEAR THAT ALL OF THIS HOPE WILL BE SHATTERED IN TIME AND ONCE AGAIN FALCON'S KILL OPTIONS WILL BE SAD.

To be continued today...

 

[DarkKyanite]

nice work
dair -> knee = justice

 

[Psymon]

Nice thread =). Good to get percentages involved (Y). I agree with DarkKyanite as well =P. Psy.

 

[Reaver197]

I think there might be more characters than just Samus that the dair to knee will never really work on.

 

[KeyKid19]

I think there might be more characters than just Samus that the dair to knee will never really work on.

Why though? I don't get it. She bounces just like everyone else, but yet it NEVER is a combo for some reason. Same timing, same everything, but no combo.

 

[Reaver197]

It's the virtue of their weight, their hitstun just isn't the same, especially for the respective height they achieve. You might be able to dair them to the proper height, but they'll be free of the hitstun too soon. By the time they are technically stunned long enough to do a "combo", they get hit too far to actually reach.

 

[KeyKid19]

It's the virtue of their weight, their hitstun just isn't the same, especially for the respective height they achieve. You might be able to dair them to the proper height, but they'll be free of the hitstun too soon. By the time they are technically stunned long enough to do a "combo", they get hit too far to actually reach.

Well I'm throwing in non-combo percents that Dair -> Knee works at for those guys in case you think your opponent will be a smidge too slow. lol

Only two so far though out of the entire top row.

 

[Iwan]

To Key or Lucien....

Any way you guys could get a video up of this? I think people could better understand the Dair>>knee if they actually saw it being used.

There's no way for me to get a video up right now : /

 

[KeyKid19]

I'll do that right now.

 

[Iwan]

Very nice Key...and as for your worries about people adapting to this, couldn't you mindgame pretty well with this "combo"? I mean, yea...hit with the knee after they airdodge...but let's say they do airdodge it right.

Wouldn't you still be able to pull of another hit after the dair? What if you daired, double jumped up.....and did nothing? mindgames? Also if you daired, jumped up, waited for them to airdodge, since, if they'd adapted, it'd be their instinct to, and punish them after that airdodge. I duno...it seems like this is still useful either way. And i highly doubt anyone could consistently airdodge this everytime a Falcon player used it.

Also, like we were just talking about, you could dair, and if you think they'll airdodge...dair again. Like you said, you'd probably end up hitting with "the side" of the move (falcon chest lol), and getting a kill.

So guys, things to try/test out:
1: Dair>>Knee
2: If your opponent adapts, mindgame with it. be creative and post what you get. Key thought of a Dair>>jump up and wait>>Dair again to punish the airdodge (if they timed it right to avoid the knee).

 

[Tenki]

Oh, you were doing it from standing position.

._.; I was doing it from a running position-

Run+d-air across the person, Turn+Jump+Knee.

Though, I practiced with lv 3's, so they didn't dodge, and it still counted as consecutive hits.

that might be a little harder to DI from x.x;

 

[Jmex]

Awesome... Now to find a way to do this consistently during a match.

 

[Iwan]

Awesome... Now to find a way to do this consistently during a match.

Yea...it's hard to setup...

 

[KeyKid19]

Yea...it's hard to setup...

That's putting it modestly. lol Taking into account opponent DI and all of that just makes it even harder. Sigh... it's a good combo but kicking it off is a doozy so far...

 

[Krigar]

I experimented with this a while ago with my friend when I made a similar post.

Its escapable' if your opponent attacks at you after being hit while in the air.

The reason the "combo" counter counts it as a combo is because the opponent cannot jump yet (though they can still air dodge and attack).

Overall, many people will just mash shield (like in the cpu in the training video) and eat a knee anyway, so the Dair -> Knee is still effective, but I wouldn't put it past a Marth to just spam aerials to escape this.

 

[xsonicx_13]

that is going to work perfectly

 

[infernovia]

That CPU airdodged, so as someone just mentioned, they can just spam aerials to get out of this.

Edit: It seems I am wrong and people can airdodge before hitstun is over. Crazy.

 

[Tenki]

I doubt they can attack. If that were true, I'd spam certain moves ASAP to avoid KO's (Falcon Kick, other momentum-stopping moves)

Regardless, airdodge is basically the only thing that you can do almost immediately after getting hit.

 

[KeyKid19]

Tenki, that's actually not a bad idea. There are some times when your momentum would kill you but you're not stunned. I can see Falcon Kick as a somewhat decent vertical KO stopper (and even horizontal actually). I dunno. I'll have to try that.

I have seen a really good G&W use Dair when he gets hit up, so I guess it must help at least a little bit.

BTW Nair = best combo breaker.

 

[Sh1n0b1]

Dair to knee is just simply beautiful

 

[SexyDoodles]

what about DI...? -__-;

 

[Krigar]

I doubt they can attack. If that were true, I'd spam certain moves ASAP to avoid KO's (Falcon Kick, other momentum-stopping moves)

Regardless, airdodge is basically the only thing that you can do almost immediately after getting hit.

You are allowed to attack practically as soon as you can air dodge (if not at the same time). For this reason you are able to attack with quick aerials to break combos. People with fast aerials can hit you before you can get the knee off in Dair->Knee. I asked my friend to play Marth in training mode when I tested this combo, and he could always hit me before my Knee came out.

On recovery: Moves that alter your momentum (like Falcon kick) will not alter your momentum when the game knows your momentum has been set by an enemy's attack recently. I don't know how long it takes to not be considered in this state, but many moves (like Toon link Dair, G&W dair, Falcon Kick(?)) will not actually send you down if you use it to "recover" before a star KO. However, if people find ways to fool the game or be able to recover sooner with this moves then we'd all be glad to hear it (maybe air dodge -> double jump canceled Falcon Kick?). Anyways, I'll go mess around with this stuff too and double check.

 

[Testament27]

good stuff key. your tips have helped me improve my falcon greatly. Im turning some heads in my area.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You are allowed to attack practically as soon as you can air dodge (if not at the same time). For this reason you are able to attack with quick aerials to break combos. People with fast aerials can hit you before you can get the knee off in Dair->Knee. I asked my friend to play Marth in training mode when I tested this combo, and he could always hit me before my Knee came out.

On recovery: Moves that alter your momentum (like Falcon kick) will not alter your momentum when the game knows your momentum has been set by an enemy's attack recently. I don't know how long it takes to not be considered in this state, but many moves (like Toon link Dair, G&W dair, Falcon Kick(?)) will not actually send you down if you use it to "recover" before a star KO. However, if people find ways to fool the game or be able to recover sooner with this moves then we'd all be glad to hear it (maybe air dodge -> double jump canceled Falcon Kick?). Anyways, I'll go mess around with this stuff too and double check.

Darn, things were actually looking really promising for Falcon.

Reminds me of how people now consistently tech G&W's D-throw. =(

 

[Krigar]

Darn, things were actually looking really promising for Falcon.

Reminds me of how people now consistently tech G&W's D-throw. =(

It should still work pretty well on people like Snake/Dedede I would imagine.. or anyone that ha s more of a tendency to air dodge your attacks. I was disappointed a little too, but just like any other setup in Brawl, you can punish a predictable air dodger if you can get this combo setup with the Dair.

edit: Personally I kind of use this move as the ace up my sleeve. It's pretty rare to actually pull this off in fights, so not many people will be completely familiar with the combo (and know when to counter it). I try to start throwing out more Dairs when I know they are in range for the combo to work, but I probably won't use it on the same opponent more than once.

 

[Iwan]

It should still work pretty well on people like Snake/Dedede I would imagine.. or anyone that ha s more of a tendency to air dodge your attacks. I was disappointed a little too, but just like any other setup in Brawl, you can punish a predictable air dodger if you can get this combo setup with the Dair.

edit: Personally I kind of use this move as the ace up my sleeve. It's pretty rare to actually pull this off in fights, so not many people will be completely familiar with the combo (and know when to counter it). I try to start throwing out more Dairs when I know they are in range for the combo to work, but I probably won't use it on the same opponent more than once.

Exactly. I'm thinking this isn't the "end all be all" KO combo we thought it was, but really...it's usable. As a falcon player i can see me using this once or twice a match (whenever there's an opening for it), and when used i think this "combo" will succeed more than it will fail. It's really natural instinct for most people to air dodge after the dair, so more than likely you're going to land the knee.

It's not a spammable combo or anything, but it still works nicely and if anything, has added just a little more to falcon's game. I still think overall, this was a very, very nice find.

 

[Mecha Soul]

Like Iwan said, this isn't the supercombo we were hoping for, but it's still helpful.

Look on the bright side. At least now we have a plausible setup into the knee, right?

 

[Crizthakidd]

LOL justice in the face. common guys keep the falcon aliiiiiiive

 

[Sephiroth27]

You're just looking for the counter to say "Consecutive Hits: 2" right? Because if that's the case then the max percentage for a dair > uair on Game and Watch can be changed to 103%. It's at 104% that I can't seem to do it.

 

[TengenToppaDrill]

The knee will once again be spattered with blood. Muhahahaha!

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's not a spammable combo or anything, but it still works nicely and if anything, has added just a little more to falcon's game. I still think overall, this was a very, very nice find.

I guess I agree with that. It'll prove he's better than Sonic. I mean srsly it's not like Sonic has any real killing combos, and his kill strength is a bit less than Falcon's.

Inui thinks Sonic belongs in bottom tier btw.

 

[KeyKid19]

You're just looking for the counter to say "Consecutive Hits: 2" right? Because if that's the case then the max percentage for a dair > uair on Game and Watch can be changed to 103%. It's at 104% that I can't seem to do it.

I'll change that. I guess you're better at getting the perfect timing than I am.

 

[KeyKid19]

I guess I agree with that. It'll prove he's better than Sonic. I mean srsly it's not like Sonic has any real killing combos, and his kill strength is a bit less than Falcon's.

Inui thinks Sonic belongs in bottom tier btw.

Wait, A2ZOMG just admitted that Falcon is not the worst character in the game??? WOAH NOW! lol Alert the tier list!

 

[A2ZOMG]

Wait, A2ZOMG just admitted that Falcon is not the worst character in the game??? WOAH NOW! lol Alert the tier list!

Talk to Inui. I think he'll make you happy. ^^

He puts Falcon in the low tier. Basically I asked him why he thought Falcon was better than Sonic.

Falcon and Sonic play kinda teh saem, except Falcon lives longer, has more priority, has more KO power, and a few moves made of w1n while Sonic has nothing made of w1n.

 

[KeyKid19]

Talk to Inui. I think he'll make you happy. ^^

He puts Falcon in the low tier. Basically I asked him why he thought Falcon was better than Sonic.

Low tier? So does that mean Sonic is the only one in bottom tier? lol

 

[A2ZOMG]

Low tier? So does that mean Sonic is the only one in bottom tier? lol

While I personally disagree with him, he puts Ganondorf in the bottom tier. He still thinks Ganondorf is the worst character in the game, because Ganondorf isn't allowed to move. I disagree with that when he has range, priority, and power and really good IASA frames on tons of ****, but eh. He put Sonic like one spot higher than Ganondorf, and that was it for the bottom tier.

 

[KeyKid19]

While I personally disagree with him, he puts Ganondorf in the bottom tier. He still thinks Ganondorf is the worst character in the game, because Ganondorf isn't allowed to move. I disagree with that when he has range, priority, and power and really good IASA frames on tons of ****, but eh. He put Sonic like one spot higher than Ganondorf, and that was it for the bottom tier.

I dunno. I think I side with him more on the Ganondorf issue. Ganondorf doesn't seem horrid on paper but for some reason he is really bad in game imo. I mean I see his strengths and stuff but I just feel that they can all be pretty easily dampened and some of them are overrated in the first place (you can't win a match with just Side B alone, I'm sorry!). I dunno. I guess we'll see when the BRoomers publish.

BTW if tier lists are changeable as the game develops more, why don't they publish a tier list now and then just update it instead of waiting forever for the first one? I've never understood that.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I dunno. I think I side with him more on the Ganondorf issue. Ganondorf doesn't seem horrid on paper but for some reason he is really bad in game imo. I mean I see his strengths and stuff but I just feel that they can all be pretty easily dampened and some of them are overrated in the first place (you can't win a match with just Side B alone, I'm sorry!). I dunno. I guess we'll see when the BRoomers publish.

BTW if tier lists are changeable as the game develops more, why don't they publish a tier list now and then just update it instead of waiting forever for the first one? I've never understood that.

LOL, yeah. You can't just win with Side-Bs. That's why you autocancel D-airs and do 40% combos with that and a U-smash. XD

And honestly the more I see people utilizing Ganondorf's IASA frames and ability to autocancel several aerials, the better I think he is. Have you checked out Bizarro Flame and his matches? Honestly I think both Ganondorf and Falcon are slightly underestimated as of now because of the options they get from things like autocanceling.

 

[KeyKid19]

LOL, yeah. You can't just win with Side-Bs. That's why you autocancel D-airs and do 40% combos with that and a U-smash. XD

And honestly the more I see people utilizing Ganondorf's IASA frames and ability to autocancel several aerials, the better I think he is. Have you checked out Bizarro Flame and his matches? Honestly I think both Ganondorf and Falcon are slightly underestimated as of now because of the options they get from things like autocanceling.

I actually think I've played him but I've definitely seen his videos. He's very good. However like SideB, you can't win matches by just autocanceling aerials. lol I dunno. Ganondorf's chase game is really horrid so I think that limits him a lot. Honestly He could knock someone from one side of Final Destination to offscreen on the other side and they'd be back on the stage before he got over there to do anything. lol

 

[Tenki]

Hay, does d-air>nipple launch work? lol

[edit]
also, Ganondorf can move faster with his down-B, or just spam his dash attack lol