Meta Custom Moveset Project: Mega Man

[Wavebird]

The fact of the matter is customs are to make the game more varied and we should look forward towards trying to implement even the most obscure custom builds

It puts people in a tough situation cause everyone wants their custom moves and obviously, people want the best moves paired up multiple times. The thing is some of the worst moves will be weeded out over time but even then some people like using low tier or funky setups.

The question in mind is that this is mainly for the Evo setups and honestly a little over a month is not a lot of time for some people to impress or showcase some moves, but why should they maybe they just like playing with those moves and should be given a close to equal opportunity to maybe be able to use their moves

Take this into consideration Sm4sh at Evolution is 2/3 we know not everyone is gonna get pleased with the current 10 slots in customs but we must look for not just variety but also the best combinations. The best way to find them is to semi limit them if you force people to choose 3 variations instead of 10 you have a better chance and will weed out the more useless ones.(You also can only play a maximum of 3 variations per match 2/3 at Evo2015)

All people are doing is alienating the lesser used moves and from this of course more people are gonna vote for their own variation of Metal Blade. This method not only lessens the variation but also puts the people that don't use certain moves in a though spot for example if there is only one variation of shadow blade and Hyper bomb then chances of getting your favorite variation is much less and that makes those users start to debate if they are not getting an equal opportunity why should they even try to experiment.

The Idea I have come up with is the what I call Ratio Builds and can be used for characters other than Mega Man
We start off picking the Main specials(the specials that people see the most potential in or vouch for) for Mega man it's gonna be the Neutral specials
We then separate and give equal spots three to all of them this leaves us with one slot that can be filled later

1Metal Blade 2Hyper Bomb 3ShadowBlade
1??? 2??? 3???
1??? 2??? 3???
1??? 2??? 3???

This helps Variety while it does weed out some variations it also helps have some obscure moves.
Some of you might think it sucks to only have 3 variations of Metal blade (4 if you conside1111)

This is not to force people to use different moves but it does make it so more people maybe consider trying out other moves that work well with the the other 2 Main Specials
It also divides the customs into 3 separate factions where people might have a more equal vote to choose their personal favorite Hyper Bomb or Shadow Blade moveset

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So the Mega Man situation as I understand it (definitely not a MM main myself, no one is strong with MM local to me) is basically this:

Metal Blade is the clear favorite on neutral special. Shadow Blade can do a few nifty things it can't but is mostly worse. Hyper Bomb is just plain awful and shouldn't ever be considered.

Danger Wrap is the clear favorite on side special. Crash Bomber is a move with several handy uses but is overall rarely worth it. Ice Slasher really is just horrible other than not being bucketable by Mr. Game & Watch...

On up special it's highly contentious. Rush Coil is kinda a go-to move because it has a lot of good uses and is a very serviceable recovery that many MMs are used to. Tornado Hold has many tricky applications but worsens his recovery. Beat improves his recovery but works very differently and is not without downside.

On down special you pretty much need lots of iterations because Skull Barrier is the clear correct choice against good projectiles and the clear wrong choice otherwise. Plant Barrier vs Leaf Shield is nearly pure preference with minor pros and cons on both sides.

The current sets used by the project aren't ideal by anyone's reckoning as far as I can tell.

If we wanted to iterate for raw quality, we would use these sets by my current understanding of the situation:

1311
1312
1313
1321
1322
1323
1331
1332
1333
1112

This would give maximum flexibility in picking between up and down special variants to players who agree that Metal Blade and Danger Wrap are correct while the Crash Bomber fans still have default and can use a Skull Barrier variant which is the most important type of variant to have most likely. It is my understanding that, to go as far in the tournament as possible, most MM mains would be best served by some set that looks about like this.

The problem with this approach is that it isn't very tolerating of minority opinions; it does feel harsh to not give Shadow Blade any sets because there are probably going to be several players who would want to use it, and I'm not sure how important respecting the Leaf vs Plant preference point is for the Tornado Hold and Beat sets (if 1321 and 1331 aren't needed, that could let us add whatever the two overall best sets are using less conventional moves). I'm reading a lot of responses in this topic that are asking for things that aren't in the poll at the top; I'm not really sure how we're filtering things down now.

We'd ideally like to be done by the middle of March, let's say March 17. If we're "very close just a tiny bit more time" at that point it's fine since March 27 is the real hard deadline, but we can't under any circumstance whatsoever overflow March 27 so we should be aiming for very substantial buffer room to be done on time. From what I'm seeing here are the main things to be answered in the interim...

Are there right and wrong answers with Leaf Shield vs Plant Barrier, and how important is it to always have both available for player preference? If Plant Barrier is mostly better but Leaf Shield is not much worse overall such that it could be considered preference, that would seem to be a good argument to exclude sets such as 1321 and 1331 for other options, but if it's the sort of thing high level MMs would likely counterpick, that makes things trickier.

How good is Tornado Hold, really? I've seen many vague claims about it doing great things. I wouldn't know if they're right or wrong, but it seems like Tornado Hold is a minority position (but a pretty decent minority at least). Does Tornado Hold have specific synergies that are very important for it (moves it should always be paired with), is Tornado Hold specifically well suited to certain match-ups, or is there anything else like that we should consider?

What is the real pro vs con of Shadow Blade? It has received some niche support, enough that it has to be acknowledged. What are you losing versus Metal Blade, and what specific things (or specific characters) does packing Shadow Blade let you handle? Overall does it represent either or both of the following two things: an option a top Mega Man player would be likely to pick in tournament or an option some Mega Man players will find absolutely essential to have. If Shadow Blade is to be used, does it have specific synergies with specific other special moves?

Is there any credible defense for Ice Slasher or Hyper Bomb, or can we make our lives easier and disregard these moves in lieu of significant currently unknown tech being shown?

The project will of course respect whatever the collective will of the mains of any character is; I just felt like my "outsider" perspective from reading this debate might help out a bit. I truly don't know why I've written twice as much for Mega Man so far as anyone else, including my personal main Rosalina...

 

[ENKER]

I know there's interest in Hyper Bomb, but I guess the interest isn't vocal enough. I made a thread here: http://smashboards.com/threads/bomb-mans-demo-get-it.392095/#post-18626311
I found some fun and useful techs with it and will be working to find more in hopes that people give it more notice.

 

[Greward]

Mega Man has got such a big pool of players that it's hard to decide on anything. And all of mega man customs are super cool so it's hard to decide lol
Hyper bomb is far from awful, it's ok. It has a lot of niche uses, but it's really hard to get used to it and in the end I don't think there's any reason to trade it for Metal Blade. Same can be said about Shadow Blade, except on the "hart to get used to" thing.

This means that both Hyper Bomb and Shadow Blade are usable, but I don't think they're better than Metal Blade at high level in probably any situation (outside of opponent not knowing how to play against them). They could both have a set but they're gimmick options imo. Metal Blade is just that good.
Crash bomber is another option I feel is completely outclassed by Danger Wrap. I can only see it being a thing against the villager matchup, but it's not a big enough of an advantage over Danger Wrap tu justify a slot, and even that it's arguable. Danger Wrap is hard to get used to (I need like 3 games to start hitting with danger wrap if I've been playing with customs off for a while lol) but i can assure it's worth it. Ice slasher is plain bad. I'd have all sets as X3XX, default already gives Crash bomber if someone really wants to use it while being a good set.
Danger wrap is what truly makes Mega Man shine in customs ON.

UpBs is the hardest yeah. I'm not a tornado hold because it gives us an awful, doctor mario tier recovery, while i think doesn't give us anything overpowered enough for that exchange. It has a lot of situational uses, although it's kind of slow for a out of shield option and it's also nice as an edgeguarding tool but I think mega man is good enough at edgeguarding to trade recovery (one of our bad points) for more edgeguarding (one of our best assets). It has quite a lot of commitment if you miss it, and it's somewhat hard to setup except on edgeguard. Most follow-ups aren't true and that kind of a downfall. But the commitment can be canceled if we are playing in a stage with a high platform, aka battlefield, and it might be truly good in stages like that and worth taking over other options. A change of metagame in the middle of a set is also a great thing. I truly believe at least a 132X set should be in there.
I truly believe Beat is the best upB at high level and that's why I'm always calling for it. Rush coil still has it's edge in here because it gives us a faster get to the ledge option than beat (meaning we can refresh our offstage game for edgeguard better), it has some invincibility frames and it can be used as a runaway strat. At least one 133X should also be in there.

Shields aren't all that important, but yeah it's preference on which one to use. Skull shield is cool but it's not like we get the best reflector ever. It's good on matchup where you can read a projectile that will actually hit them for a substantial change in the game's pace (aka ROB's laser, Lucario aura sphere or side B, DDD's Gordos...). Throwing skull shield hits twice and can setup for followups like grab, dash attack or even upsmash which is nice.
Leaf shield and plant shield are pretty much the same. Leaf shield is more versatile because throwing it away is useful, but plant shield has a bigger hitbox (it actually hits people on platforms lol) and deals 1% more damage. Leaf shield hits when leaf (hitbox) touches the opponent (hurtbox), instead, plant shield has 3 hitboxes appear on different times (let's say it stays for 80 frames, it would hit at 20, then at 40, then at 60). When using plant shield you have less control on when it will hit. This means leafstooling is harder, but staying on the ledge is better (cuz bigger hitbox).
I think plant shield can be better, though. I prefer leaf shield because I throw it a lot and probably because I'm used to it, but it might not be the best option. I use this move so situationally that getting used to plant barrier would take a lot of time (not that I can't). Let's ignore leaf shield and go for plant barrier because it should be better.

So I'm going to suggest:

23XX (I'd say 2312)
33XX (I'd say 3322)
1312
1313
1322
1323
1332
1333

With those 2 slots remaining we can use one or two crash bomber set, or put more Hyper Bomb / Shadow Blade sets in here.
I'd say 1112 should be a thing though.

At a high level, people will block your MB, and make it useless since it takes too long to come out at short range, and too slow of a projectile at long range. SB is much safer on block, and gives you safer and potentially more dangerous options when you mix up your pellets.

In addition, whenever you are holding the MB in your hand, your options literally become Throw, Z-Drop, Shield, Jump, Up-B, Down-B and Side-B. In other words, you are limited, and players will definitely know to rush at you, force a throw, and attack you so you can't logically set up another throw option. They can also block your lemon follow ups, corner you, and make you jump over them, which gives up your back (An absolute no-no for Megaman).

I'm not sure who you're playing against, but when I'm fighting against strong players deep in a tournament bracket, they all know that blocking it and moving forward is the most effective way to eliminate the metal blade, and they also know that perfect shielding it will make it get stuck in the floor.

Tossing the MB (as an item) is super fast and has little to no lag, so it's a safe option that actually put us in frame advantage if they shield it. And we can Z drop anytime if we want to use an aerial. It limits us but we can break free from this limit with close to 0 commitment.

I'm european, but I've played at APEX with some high skill level american players like Dabuz, Raptor, Boss, Fatality just to name a few in tournament / money match with certain success. So I'm no random guy.

 

[mega4000]

So the Mega Man situation as I understand it (definitely not a MM main myself, no one is strong with MM local to me) is basically this:

Metal Blade is the clear favorite on neutral special. Shadow Blade can do a few nifty things it can't but is mostly worse. Hyper Bomb is just plain awful and shouldn't ever be considered.

Danger Wrap is the clear favorite on side special. Crash Bomber is a move with several handy uses but is overall rarely worth it. Ice Slasher really is just horrible other than not being bucketable by Mr. Game & Watch...

On up special it's highly contentious. Rush Coil is kinda a go-to move because it has a lot of good uses and is a very serviceable recovery that many MMs are used to. Tornado Hold has many tricky applications but worsens his recovery. Beat improves his recovery but works very differently and is not without downside.

On down special you pretty much need lots of iterations because Skull Barrier is the clear correct choice against good projectiles and the clear wrong choice otherwise. Plant Barrier vs Leaf Shield is nearly pure preference with minor pros and cons on both sides.

The current sets used by the project aren't ideal by anyone's reckoning as far as I can tell.

If we wanted to iterate for raw quality, we would use these sets by my current understanding of the situation:

1311
1312
1313
1321
1322
1323
1331
1332
1333
1112

This would give maximum flexibility in picking between up and down special variants to players who agree that Metal Blade and Danger Wrap are correct while the Crash Bomber fans still have default and can use a Skull Barrier variant which is the most important type of variant to have most likely. It is my understanding that, to go as far in the tournament as possible, most MM mains would be best served by some set that looks about like this.

The problem with this approach is that it isn't very tolerating of minority opinions; it does feel harsh to not give Shadow Blade any sets because there are probably going to be several players who would want to use it, and I'm not sure how important respecting the Leaf vs Plant preference point is for the Tornado Hold and Beat sets (if 1321 and 1331 aren't needed, that could let us add whatever the two overall best sets are using less conventional moves). I'm reading a lot of responses in this topic that are asking for things that aren't in the poll at the top; I'm not really sure how we're filtering things down now.

We'd ideally like to be done by the middle of March, let's say March 17. If we're "very close just a tiny bit more time" at that point it's fine since March 27 is the real hard deadline, but we can't under any circumstance whatsoever overflow March 27 so we should be aiming for very substantial buffer room to be done on time. From what I'm seeing here are the main things to be answered in the interim...

Are there right and wrong answers with Leaf Shield vs Plant Barrier, and how important is it to always have both available for player preference? If Plant Barrier is mostly better but Leaf Shield is not much worse overall such that it could be considered preference, that would seem to be a good argument to exclude sets such as 1321 and 1331 for other options, but if it's the sort of thing high level MMs would likely counterpick, that makes things trickier.

How good is Tornado Hold, really? I've seen many vague claims about it doing great things. I wouldn't know if they're right or wrong, but it seems like Tornado Hold is a minority position (but a pretty decent minority at least). Does Tornado Hold have specific synergies that are very important for it (moves it should always be paired with), is Tornado Hold specifically well suited to certain match-ups, or is there anything else like that we should consider?

What is the real pro vs con of Shadow Blade? It has received some niche support, enough that it has to be acknowledged. What are you losing versus Metal Blade, and what specific things (or specific characters) does packing Shadow Blade let you handle? Overall does it represent either or both of the following two things: an option a top Mega Man player would be likely to pick in tournament or an option some Mega Man players will find absolutely essential to have. If Shadow Blade is to be used, does it have specific synergies with specific other special moves?

Is there any credible defense for Ice Slasher or Hyper Bomb, or can we make our lives easier and disregard these moves in lieu of significant currently unknown tech being shown?

The project will of course respect whatever the collective will of the mains of any character is; I just felt like my "outsider" perspective from reading this debate might help out a bit. I truly don't know why I've written twice as much for Mega Man so far as anyone else, including my personal main Rosalina...

If you are going to get rid from a recovery, that's beat because most of us play with tornado hold in a lot matches(actually is my default recovery with rush being used only in specific matches). You should consider this:
1311
1312
1313
1322
1323

These five are the most important ones, because plant barrier even if is very good, I woudn't use it without tornado hold, and with rush, using leaf shield is ok but for plant shield, if your opponent runs away you are not gonna be able to lock him without tornado hold. I'm really not sure about beat, I despise that move but maybe other people like it, so if thats the cause some beat experts should do the sets, but with this 5 sets you have megaman covered completly and have 5 more sets to make combinations with shadow blade and beat. Also, if you are going for shadow blade, shadow blade must have tornado hold and danger wrap, it should never be combined with crash bomb or rush, because shadow blade only shines if you have total close range combat control. so the only sets we should allow with shadow blade are 3323 and 3322. Never use leaf shield, because you already have skull barrier, and that covers long range, but I still will only use this set against people with not spam and with plant barrier, because skull barrier works better if your opponent can catch your metal blade. For me 3322 is not so great as 3323. This is the only shadow blade set I use because everything shadow blade can do, metal blade does it better except in this close range situation. I added the 1112 for the people who are way more used to crash bomb, but this set for me sucks completly and I would change it for 1313 because it can be useful sometimes too.

 

[ChopperDave]

So the Mega Man situation as I understand it (definitely not a MM main myself, no one is strong with MM local to me) is basically this:

Metal Blade is the clear favorite on neutral special. Shadow Blade can do a few nifty things it can't but is mostly worse. Hyper Bomb is just plain awful and shouldn't ever be considered.

Danger Wrap is the clear favorite on side special. Crash Bomber is a move with several handy uses but is overall rarely worth it. Ice Slasher really is just horrible other than not being bucketable by Mr. Game & Watch...

On up special it's highly contentious. Rush Coil is kinda a go-to move because it has a lot of good uses and is a very serviceable recovery that many MMs are used to. Tornado Hold has many tricky applications but worsens his recovery. Beat improves his recovery but works very differently and is not without downside.

On down special you pretty much need lots of iterations because Skull Barrier is the clear correct choice against good projectiles and the clear wrong choice otherwise. Plant Barrier vs Leaf Shield is nearly pure preference with minor pros and cons on both sides.

The current sets used by the project aren't ideal by anyone's reckoning as far as I can tell.

If we wanted to iterate for raw quality, we would use these sets by my current understanding of the situation:

1311
1312
1313
1321
1322
1323
1331
1332
1333
1112

This would give maximum flexibility in picking between up and down special variants to players who agree that Metal Blade and Danger Wrap are correct while the Crash Bomber fans still have default and can use a Skull Barrier variant which is the most important type of variant to have most likely. It is my understanding that, to go as far in the tournament as possible, most MM mains would be best served by some set that looks about like this.

The problem with this approach is that it isn't very tolerating of minority opinions; it does feel harsh to not give Shadow Blade any sets because there are probably going to be several players who would want to use it, and I'm not sure how important respecting the Leaf vs Plant preference point is for the Tornado Hold and Beat sets (if 1321 and 1331 aren't needed, that could let us add whatever the two overall best sets are using less conventional moves). I'm reading a lot of responses in this topic that are asking for things that aren't in the poll at the top; I'm not really sure how we're filtering things down now.

We'd ideally like to be done by the middle of March, let's say March 17. If we're "very close just a tiny bit more time" at that point it's fine since March 27 is the real hard deadline, but we can't under any circumstance whatsoever overflow March 27 so we should be aiming for very substantial buffer room to be done on time. From what I'm seeing here are the main things to be answered in the interim...

Are there right and wrong answers with Leaf Shield vs Plant Barrier, and how important is it to always have both available for player preference? If Plant Barrier is mostly better but Leaf Shield is not much worse overall such that it could be considered preference, that would seem to be a good argument to exclude sets such as 1321 and 1331 for other options, but if it's the sort of thing high level MMs would likely counterpick, that makes things trickier.

How good is Tornado Hold, really? I've seen many vague claims about it doing great things. I wouldn't know if they're right or wrong, but it seems like Tornado Hold is a minority position (but a pretty decent minority at least). Does Tornado Hold have specific synergies that are very important for it (moves it should always be paired with), is Tornado Hold specifically well suited to certain match-ups, or is there anything else like that we should consider?

What is the real pro vs con of Shadow Blade? It has received some niche support, enough that it has to be acknowledged. What are you losing versus Metal Blade, and what specific things (or specific characters) does packing Shadow Blade let you handle? Overall does it represent either or both of the following two things: an option a top Mega Man player would be likely to pick in tournament or an option some Mega Man players will find absolutely essential to have. If Shadow Blade is to be used, does it have specific synergies with specific other special moves?

Is there any credible defense for Ice Slasher or Hyper Bomb, or can we make our lives easier and disregard these moves in lieu of significant currently unknown tech being shown?

The project will of course respect whatever the collective will of the mains of any character is; I just felt like my "outsider" perspective from reading this debate might help out a bit. I truly don't know why I've written twice as much for Mega Man so far as anyone else, including my personal main Rosalina...

Here are some of my thoughts:

1) Leaf Shield has quicker startup time and its toss has more range; Plant Barrier is slower on startup but does more damage, and "undulates" outward when it rotates around Mega Man. Based on this, IMO, Leaf Shield is the better overall tool in neutral and disadvantage, while Plant Barrier is the better tool for advantage, edgeguarding, and against characters too slow to punish its startup on reaction. This is why it tends to come down to pure preference. I suspect that Leaf Shield may eventually come out on top, competitively, because I think the neutral is very important to Mega Man's game, and he needs every tool he can get to safely escape the disadvantage state.

2) I'm a fan of Tornado Hold, and it's generally untested at the competitive level. It worsens Mega Man's recovery in exchange for making his edgeguard game VERY hard to deal with, and giving him a pretty neat tool to use in disadvantage and out of shield. It shouldn't ever be taken without Danger Wrap, IMO, so 1321 and 1323 are the most viable sets.

3) The main pros of Shadow Blade is that it can't be caught by opponents, and it punishes dodges and forward rolls (but not shields and backward rolls) with it's boomerang action. IMO, those are both things that Mega Man's pellets can do, and for the same amount of damage. SB can maybe trap some opponents for KOs in ways that Metal Blade can't, but I'm not sure about that and need to lab it more. Generally people agree that the better range, damage and z-drop of MB is too good to sub in SB. But there is an increasingly vocal core of defenders for SB lately, so maybe I'm missing something.

4) I haven't used Beat much, but he seems like he'd be good for recovering up and over would-be gimpers. He lets us go super deep for gimps, too. He also gives us the option to move under FD from one ledge to the other, which is pretty neat I guess. He seems like he could be ideal against characters who get many of their kills offstage and at the ledge, like Sheik and Shulk.

5) The only time I personally take Crash Bomber over Danger Wrap is against characters with "meatshields" like Pacman, Villager, and Rosalina, or when I'm counterpicking Castle Siege. Some people swear by Crash Bomber's mindgame potential and our ability to attach it to the stage on Delfino and Skyloft, but I find it tends to be more of a liability than a benefit at the competitive level. I agree 1111 and 1112 are the only two options you really need there, at least at this point in the meta.

6) The main defenders of Hyper Bomb and Ice Slasher on these boards are @ ENKER and @ Locke 06 , respectively. They each have threads for those moves. Personally, I think the moves have some interesting applications, but are generally outclassed by the other Neutral B and SideB options. Given our limited slots, I'd be in favor of dropping them until someone better at this game than me begins to prove their competitive viability.

 

[mega4000]

Here are some of my thoughts:

1) Leaf Shield has quicker startup time and its toss has more range; Plant Barrier is slower on startup but does more damage, and "undulates" outward when it rotates around Mega Man. Based on this, IMO, Leaf Shield is the better overall tool in neutral and disadvantage, while Plant Barrier is the better tool for advantage, edgeguarding, and against characters too slow to punish its startup on reaction. This is why it tends to come down to pure preference. I suspect that Leaf Shield may eventually come out on top, competitively, because I think the neutral is very important to Mega Man's game, and he needs every tool he can get to safely escape the disadvantage state.

2) I'm a fan of Tornado Hold, and it's generally untested at the competitive level. It worsens Mega Man's recovery in exchange for making his edgeguard game VERY hard to deal with, and giving him a pretty neat tool to use in disadvantage and out of shield. It shouldn't ever be taken without Danger Wrap, IMO, so 1321 and 1323 are the most viable sets.

3) The main pros of Shadow Blade is that it can't be caught by opponents, and it punishes dodges and forward rolls (but not shields and backward rolls) with it's boomerang action. IMO, those are both things that Mega Man's pellets can do, and for the same amount of damage. SB can maybe trap some opponents for KOs in ways that Metal Blade can't, but I'm not sure about that and need to lab it more. Generally people agree that the better range, damage and z-drop of MB is too good to sub in SB. But there is an increasingly vocal core of defenders for SB lately, so maybe I'm missing something.

4) I haven't used Beat much, but he seems like he'd be good for recovering up and over would-be gimpers. He lets us go super deep for gimps, too. He also gives us the option to move under FD from one ledge to the other, which is pretty neat I guess. He seems like he could be ideal against characters who get many of their kills offstage and at the ledge, like Sheik and Shulk.

5) The only time I personally take Crash Bomber over Danger Wrap is against characters with "meatshields" like Pacman, Villager, and Rosalina, or when I'm counterpicking Castle Siege. Some people swear by Crash Bomber's mindgame potential and our ability to attach it to the stage on Delfino and Skyloft, but I find it tends to be more of a liability than a benefit at the competitive level. I agree 1111 and 1112 are the only two options you really need there, at least at this point in the meta.

6) The main defenders of Hyper Bomb and Ice Slasher on these boards are @ ENKER and @ Locke 06 , respectively. They each have threads for those moves. Personally, I think the moves have some interesting applications, but are generally outclassed by the other Neutral B and SideB options. Given our limited slots, I'd be in favor of dropping them until someone better at this game than me begins to prove their competitive viability.

Against rosalina, danger wrap is plain better than crash bomb believe me:
It gives you early and easy kills.
Danger wrap sends luma fliying at the first hit and kills it with at the fourth time.
Danger wrap negates her air game completly so she can't go for retreating short hop nair.
Tornado hold sends luma fliying at the first hit.
Tornado hold negates rosalinas recovery completly and saves you from her juggle game and catch her invisible roll.
So you have two moves that kills luma with one hit if you are near the edge or knows how to combo after into bair or nair from any part of the stage, instead of a move that just deal a little bit of damage to rosalina and luma and if they know how to deal with crash bomb, you are screwed. Just look at the times were a pro rosalina face a megaman. Every time it ends with rosalina at high damage but killing megaman at like 60%. Do you think that would happen with danger wrap and tornado hold? those two moves are very very safe to punish rosalina and kill her ****ing star in one hit. If rosalina use customs, you use skull barrier in order to negate her spam and her neutral b. That gives the total advantage over her, because if she use spam, she will kill her luma alone.

Mega Man has got such a big pool of players that it's hard to decide on anything. And all of mega man customs are super cool so it's hard to decide lol
Hyper bomb is far from awful, it's ok. It has a lot of niche uses, but it's really hard to get used to it and in the end I don't think there's any reason to trade it for Metal Blade. Same can be said about Shadow Blade, except on the "hart to get used to" thing.

This means that both Hyper Bomb and Shadow Blade are usable, but I don't think they're better than Metal Blade at high level in probably any situation (outside of opponent not knowing how to play against them). They could both have a set but they're gimmick options imo. Metal Blade is just that good.
Crash bomber is another option I feel is completely outclassed by Danger Wrap. I can only see it being a thing against the villager matchup, but it's not a big enough of an advantage over Danger Wrap tu justify a slot, and even that it's arguable. Danger Wrap is hard to get used to (I need like 3 games to start hitting with danger wrap if I've been playing with customs off for a while lol) but i can assure it's worth it. Ice slasher is plain bad. I'd have all sets as X3XX, default already gives Crash bomber if someone really wants to use it while being a good set.
Danger wrap is what truly makes Mega Man shine in customs ON.

UpBs is the hardest yeah. I'm not a tornado hold because it gives us an awful, doctor mario tier recovery, while i think doesn't give us anything overpowered enough for that exchange. It has a lot of situational uses, although it's kind of slow for a out of shield option and it's also nice as an edgeguarding tool but I think mega man is good enough at edgeguarding to trade recovery (one of our bad points) for more edgeguarding (one of our best assets). It has quite a lot of commitment if you miss it, and it's somewhat hard to setup except on edgeguard. Most follow-ups aren't true and that kind of a downfall. But the commitment can be canceled if we are playing in a stage with a high platform, aka battlefield, and it might be truly good in stages like that and worth taking over other options. A change of metagame in the middle of a set is also a great thing. I truly believe at least a 132X set should be in there.
I truly believe Beat is the best upB at high level and that's why I'm always calling for it. Rush coil still has it's edge in here because it gives us a faster get to the ledge option than beat (meaning we can refresh our offstage game for edgeguard better), it has some invincibility frames and it can be used as a runaway strat. At least one 133X should also be in there.

Shields aren't all that important, but yeah it's preference on which one to use. Skull shield is cool but it's not like we get the best reflector ever. It's good on matchup where you can read a projectile that will actually hit them for a substantial change in the game's pace (aka ROB's laser, Lucario aura sphere or side B, DDD's Gordos...). Throwing skull shield hits twice and can setup for followups like grab, dash attack or even upsmash which is nice.
Leaf shield and plant shield are pretty much the same. Leaf shield is more versatile because throwing it away is useful, but plant shield has a bigger hitbox (it actually hits people on platforms lol) and deals 1% more damage. Leaf shield hits when leaf (hitbox) touches the opponent (hurtbox), instead, plant shield has 3 hitboxes appear on different times (let's say it stays for 80 frames, it would hit at 20, then at 40, then at 60). When using plant shield you have less control on when it will hit. This means leafstooling is harder, but staying on the ledge is better (cuz bigger hitbox).
I think plant shield can be better, though. I prefer leaf shield because I throw it a lot and probably because I'm used to it, but it might not be the best option. I use this move so situationally that getting used to plant barrier would take a lot of time (not that I can't). Let's ignore leaf shield and go for plant barrier because it should be better.

So I'm going to suggest:

23XX (I'd say 2312)
33XX (I'd say 3322)
1312
1313
1322
1323
1332
1333

With those 2 slots remaining we can use one or two crash bomber set, or put more Hyper Bomb / Shadow Blade sets in here.
I'd say 1112 should be a thing though.



Tossing the MB (as an item) is super fast and has little to no lag, so it's a safe option that actually put us in frame advantage if they shield it. And we can Z drop anytime if we want to use an aerial. It limits us but we can break free from this limit with close to 0 commitment.

I'm european, but I've played at APEX with some high skill level american players like Dabuz, Raptor, Boss, Fatality just to name a few in tournament / money match with certain success. So I'm no random guy.

I think you are using tornado hold in the wrong way to recover, thats why you are getting frustrate like with doctor mario. You should always waste every single jump and go as near as you can from the ledge, it doesn't matter if your off scree, but make sure you are the nearest from the edge as possible. Then you use tornado hold, because at difference from rush, it has a great vertical game, but a crappy horizontal game. Believe me when you uderstand that you will able to recover way more and enjoy the move, specially because it can't be gimpeable and it's very good to use it as a gimp weapon.

 

[ChopperDave]

One other quick thing I noted when I took Plant Barrier to the lab today: sometimes the hitbox knocks people away from you in just the right way that you will miss your grab, which is SUPER annoying and punishable. This doesn't seem to happen with Leaf Shield.

I think this is either due to the fact that (1) Plant Barrier undulates outward, and when the flower is furthest out it may actually knock opponents out of reach from our grab or (2) Plant Berrier flowers have a 45• knockback angle and Leaf Shield leaves have the Sakurai angle. Could be a little bit of both.

Another thing I noficed is that PB can't "leaf lock" like Leaf Shield does due to not having the Sakurai angle. This is less of a big deal because leaf locking is something that happens pretty rarely, at least for me.

 

[ENKER]

I just added a bunch to my thread on Hyper Bomb. I hope my Mega buddies take it into consideration! :D

 

[Greward]

I think having Beat as an option is a must. It's better than Rush Coil in a lot of matchups.

I'd say that we should decide whether to use plant barrier or leaf shield and forget about the other one. I don't really mind about this though I prefer leaf shield because I'm used to it. Matchups can substantially change whether we have Beat or Rush Coil, but the difference in a matchup where we can decide between Plant Barrier and Leaf shield is small.

@ mega4000 : I'm just saying it is a worse recovery than Rush, distance wise. They both go as high but Rush has some horizontal momentum which TH doesn't.

TH is awesome, I'm just worried that the lack of recovery will hurt us a lot. We already have a bad recovery with Rush Coil and making it worse feels dangerous. Although I love TH setups and it's a super good tool if we get it in, Bair / DW / Up air followups are amazing.

We should have 1 HB set and 1 SB set because there's people who like them. They are worse than MB but they ain't bad.

I'd say:
2 sets per up B (13XX) = 6 sets. One of them with skull shield, other with either leaf or plant.
HB set
SB set
Crash bomb set (1112)
Ice slasher set? I think it's bad tho. Or else Crash bomb + Tornado Hold

We might even use plant shield without TH (since plant shield main advantage is gimping ability) and leaf shield with TH.

 

[mega4000]

I think having Beat as an option is a must. It's better than Rush Coil in a lot of matchups.

I'd say that we should decide whether to use plant barrier or leaf shield and forget about the other one. I don't really mind about this though I prefer leaf shield because I'm used to it. Matchups can substantially change whether we have Beat or Rush Coil, but the difference in a matchup where we can decide between Plant Barrier and Leaf shield is small.

@ mega4000 : I'm just saying it is a worse recovery than Rush, distance wise. They both go as high but Rush has some horizontal momentum which TH doesn't.

TH is awesome, I'm just worried that the lack of recovery will hurt us a lot. We already have a bad recovery with Rush Coil and making it worse feels dangerous. Although I love TH setups and it's a super good tool if we get it in, Bair / DW / Up air followups are amazing.

We should have 1 HB set and 1 SB set because there's people who like them. They are worse than MB but they ain't bad.

I'd say:
2 sets per up B (13XX) = 6 sets. One of them with skull shield, other with either leaf or plant.
HB set
SB set
Crash bomb set (1112)
Ice slasher set? I think it's bad tho. Or else Crash bomb + Tornado Hold

We might even use plant shield without TH (since plant shield main advantage is gimping ability) and leaf shield with TH.

I think you are right, we should have 1 set for hb and one set for sb but not more. Pls don't discard plant barrier, because with tornado hold is epic because of the tornado hold > plant barrier release combo. Maybe we could do this instead, because i think leaf shield doesn't work really great with tornado hold but plant barrier is not so good with rush:
Leaf shield for rush and beat only, plant barrier for tornado hold only.
I suggest this sets with those restrictions:
1311
1312
1322
1323
1331
1332
3323
2122
What do you think? there is still room for two more slots but the 2122 is **** against pacman or villager. I just put tornado hold here because it can be combined with hyper bomb and is a get off me tool needed because hyper bomb is so slow. The rest covers everything and I still think shadow blade is only usefull in close combat, if someone camps you your are not gonna win even with skull barrier, because he can just time your skull barrier and you won't be able to hold an item.

One other quick thing I noted when I took Plant Barrier to the lab today: sometimes the hitbox knocks people away from you in just the right way that you will miss your grab, which is SUPER annoying and punishable. This doesn't seem to happen with Leaf Shield.

I think this is either due to the fact that (1) Plant Barrier undulates outward, and when the flower is furthest out it may actually knock opponents out of reach from our grab or (2) Plant Berrier flowers have a 45• knockback angle and Leaf Shield leaves have the Sakurai angle. Could be a little bit of both.

Another thing I noficed is that PB can't "leaf lock" like Leaf Shield does due to not having the Sakurai angle. This is less of a big deal because leaf locking is something that happens pretty rarely, at least for me.

I forgot to tell you, every time you use plant barrier, try to use it after connecting a tornado hold and if you are gonna use it always go for a dash grab. Standing grab with plaint barrier is not the way to go, plus the extra leafs will protect you from a lot of things and if you are in the back of your opponent eh won't be able to stop your dash grab.

I just added a bunch to my thread on Hyper Bomb. I hope my Mega buddies take it into consideration! :D

Read my post about my hyper bomb set and suggest other good hyper bomb sets pls.

 

[Locke 06]

@juice.Zucco @NinjaLink - input from you two would probably be appreciated.

Edit: Also, if anyone knows Seibrik or Badada and can ask their opinions since they played Mega Man at Apex and got out of their pools (I know Seibrik has a twitter).

Edit harder: @SSGuy - I know you said you haven't explored customs all that much, but even thoughts on default specials would be nice.

 

[Fenrir VII]

@Sensei Seibrik get in here.

Ok my opinion is that we have far too many moves and opinions to fully satisfy everybody. the custom moveset project was to develop 6 custom sets, so we are limited to what we can do, with all honesty. So we have to make cuts in the moves we are choosing that will be.... uncomfortable to some people.
We also get the 2222 and 3333 sets by default, but I don't really think there's anybody who likes either of those. As a note, while I can see the benefits for Plant Barrier over leaf shield, I think LS is definitively better due to reduced startup (giving more time to actually get the gimps) and a huge projectile which is actually nice for edgeguarding. I also (along with a lot of other people) think Metal blade is by far our best neutral B, so I weight heavily in favor of it.

My proposal is that we need the following 6 (broad) sets to handle all matchups. I don't think we have a matchup that bad to make a character-specific moveset (such as an anti-rosa set, etc)

1. The danger wrap set 1311... this is an obvious favorite
2. An anti-camp set
3. A recovery set
4. A stage control set
5. a tornado hold set
6. Some modification of one of the previous 5 sets to capture one other option.

So let's break those down a bit. 1 is obvious so I'll skip that.

2. ok so for anti-camp, skull barrier is a must. I would also say Metal Blade is a must... I could see making an argument for Hyper Bomb here, but blade has more options. I would personally go with Crash Bomb for this one because it is useful against the chars that you would typically want to reflect against. It insta-explodes on Pacman's hydrant, villager's tree, etc, and gives you a long range "shoot back" type projectile. I could see an argument for danger wrap (especially when you consider samus), so I'd be fine with either one. For UpB I'd just go Rush. most people are more comfortable with him, and considering this is such a bread n butter type loadout, I think it's the best choice. So 1112 for me.

3. Here's a Beat set. I can see his use in some matchups (vs Mac, Diddy, Fox, etc) even though I'm less convinced on his universal use than say Overswarm is. Anyways, I'd go 1131 or 1331. Probably the latter because I feel DW is a more universally good move than crash bomb.

4. OK here's an Ice Slasher set. Bear with me... @ Locke 06 made a thread a while back singing its praises (http://smashboards.com/threads/white-halloween-an-ice-slasher-and-skull-barrier-introduction.381755/), and I have to say he made some good points. Yes it's fairly slow and fairly short ranged, but against the big/slow stage control type chars, such as Ganon, Bowser, etc.... popping them in the air any time after like 30% and regaining all of the stage is.... really really good. So for the rest of the moves, I could see this being incredibly standard 1211 or a full off-the-wall 3223. My preference would really be to just go vanilla 1211... or 1213 at the craziest, because I really don't think we want to choose the slowest of every move considering we are using this against characters that all have really good killmoves.. and again, most players are more familiar with 1111 than anything else, so small changes are valuable, imo.

5. Tornado hold is interesting, and we're not even close to understanding it fully. I could see it being very, very good, or just a recovery nerf. We'll have to see... and I fully admit to not knowing it very well yet or what matchups it's good in, etc. @ ChopperDave fully supports it and I can see his reasons, so let's include it. For the other moves in this set, I think Danger wrap is a no brainer (can combo out of TH), and I prioritize Metal Blade and Leaf shield, although I could honestly see Shadow Blade working with this set, as you are replacing your vertical MB zoning with TH... interesting. Anyways, I'd personally go 1321

6. Ok so here's the kicker. looking through my list, I have ONLY included Metal Blade and Leaf Shield... although I could see Shadow blade and/or Plant barrier shoe-horning their way into sets 4 or 5 fairly easily... but the point is, I have left off 3 moves entirely... shadow blade, hyper bomb, and Plant Barrier. I feel like this is something we just won't be able to prevent, but I would use moveset #6 to include one of these and leave the other 5 sets as is... then throw the other 2 moves away, unfortunately.

The unfortunate truth is that we are too limited to include every moveset, so we have to make decisions such as leaf shield vs plant barrier and just choose the more universally-good move to include on everything so we don't have "aww this ice slasher has Plant barrier??? lame...." popping up all the time.

 

[Locke 06]

@Sensei Seibrik get in here.

Ok my opinion is that we have far too many moves and opinions to fully satisfy everybody. the custom moveset project was to develop 6 custom sets, so we are limited to what we can do, with all honesty. So we have to make cuts in the moves we are choosing that will be.... uncomfortable to some people.
We also get the 2222 and 3333 sets by default, but I don't really think there's anybody who likes either of those. As a note, while I can see the benefits for Plant Barrier over leaf shield, I think LS is definitively better due to reduced startup (giving more time to actually get the gimps) and a huge projectile which is actually nice for edgeguarding. I also (along with a lot of other people) think Metal blade is by far our best neutral B, so I weight heavily in favor of it.

My proposal is that we need the following 6 (broad) sets to handle all matchups. I don't think we have a matchup that bad to make a character-specific moveset (such as an anti-rosa set, etc)

1. The danger wrap set 1311... this is an obvious favorite
2. An anti-camp set
3. A recovery set
4. A stage control set
5. a tornado hold set
6. Some modification of one of the previous 5 sets to capture one other option.

So let's break those down a bit. 1 is obvious so I'll skip that.

2. ok so for anti-camp, skull barrier is a must. I would also say Metal Blade is a must... I could see making an argument for Hyper Bomb here, but blade has more options. I would personally go with Crash Bomb for this one because it is useful against the chars that you would typically want to reflect against. It insta-explodes on Pacman's hydrant, villager's tree, etc, and gives you a long range "shoot back" type projectile. I could see an argument for danger wrap (especially when you consider samus), so I'd be fine with either one. For UpB I'd just go Rush. most people are more comfortable with him, and considering this is such a bread n butter type loadout, I think it's the best choice. So 1112 for me.

3. Here's a Beat set. I can see his use in some matchups (vs Mac, Diddy, Fox, etc) even though I'm less convinced on his universal use than say Overswarm is. Anyways, I'd go 1131 or 1331. Probably the latter because I feel DW is a more universally good move than crash bomb.

4. OK here's an Ice Slasher set. Bear with me... @ Locke 06 made a thread a while back singing its praises (http://smashboards.com/threads/white-halloween-an-ice-slasher-and-skull-barrier-introduction.381755/), and I have to say he made some good points. Yes it's fairly slow and fairly short ranged, but against the big/slow stage control type chars, such as Ganon, Bowser, etc.... popping them in the air any time after like 30% and regaining all of the stage is.... really really good. So for the rest of the moves, I could see this being incredibly standard 1211 or a full off-the-wall 3223. My preference would really be to just go vanilla 1211... or 1213 at the craziest, because I really don't think we want to choose the slowest of every move considering we are using this against characters that all have really good killmoves.. and again, most players are more familiar with 1111 than anything else, so small changes are valuable, imo.

5. Tornado hold is interesting, and we're not even close to understanding it fully. I could see it being very, very good, or just a recovery nerf. We'll have to see... and I fully admit to not knowing it very well yet or what matchups it's good in, etc. @ ChopperDave fully supports it and I can see his reasons, so let's include it. For the other moves in this set, I think Danger wrap is a no brainer (can combo out of TH), and I prioritize Metal Blade and Leaf shield, although I could honestly see Shadow Blade working with this set, as you are replacing your vertical MB zoning with TH... interesting. Anyways, I'd personally go 1321

6. Ok so here's the kicker. looking through my list, I have ONLY included Metal Blade and Leaf Shield... although I could see Shadow blade and/or Plant barrier shoe-horning their way into sets 4 or 5 fairly easily... but the point is, I have left off 3 moves entirely... shadow blade, hyper bomb, and Plant Barrier. I feel like this is something we just won't be able to prevent, but I would use moveset #6 to include one of these and leave the other 5 sets as is... then throw the other 2 moves away, unfortunately.

The unfortunate truth is that we are too limited to include every moveset, so we have to make decisions such as leaf shield vs plant barrier and just choose the more universally-good move to include on everything so we don't have "aww this ice slasher has Plant barrier??? lame...." popping up all the time.

Due to Evo not allowing people to load their own sets, we need to decide on 10. So we have 4 extra slots in addition to the 6, even though the original purpose was to have 6, a 2222 and 3333 with 2 personal sets.

Although settling on 6 for locals who still want to allow for 2222, 3333, and personal sets would be a good thing to come up with.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Due to Evo not allowing people to load their own sets, we need to decide on 10. So we have 4 extra slots in addition to the 6, even though the original purpose was to have 6, a 2222 and 3333 with 2 personal sets.

Ah didn't realize that. good to know.

I still think we'll need to eventually narrow down to 6 because I think the "custom moveset project" will eventually win out.... but if we have 10, then we have some room to make adjustments on the metal blade vs all comers, crash bomb vs danger wrap, leaf shield vs plant barrier, and Rush vs all arguments as needed.

Also @ --- , looking thru your poll, no Beat sets without Hyper Bomb (>.>) are listed, and the only Tornado Hold option has Crash Bomb, which is far inferior to Danger Wrap imo because TH > DW is a thing and is one of the best things about TH. Pretty sure @ ChopperDave agrees with this.

I think 1331 and 1321 should be added at the very least.

also...given the similarities of the moves, I almost think Leaf Shield vs Plant Barrier should be a separate poll and the winner gets put on all sets unless there is valid reason that either one is more useful for certain builds.

 

[mega4000]

Ah didn't realize that. good to know.

I still think we'll need to eventually narrow down to 6 because I think the "custom moveset project" will eventually win out.... but if we have 10, then we have some room to make adjustments on the metal blade vs all comers, crash bomb vs danger wrap, leaf shield vs plant barrier, and Rush vs all arguments as needed.

Also @ --- , looking thru your poll, no Beat sets without Hyper Bomb (>.>) are listed, and the only Tornado Hold option has Crash Bomb, which is far inferior to Danger Wrap imo because TH > DW is a thing and is one of the best things about TH. Pretty sure @ ChopperDave agrees with this.

I think 1331 and 1321 should be added at the very least.

also...given the similarities of the moves, I almost think Leaf Shield vs Plant Barrier should be a separate poll and the winner gets put on all sets unless there is valid reason that either one is more useful for certain builds.

I really think tornado hold works better with plant barrier and leaf shield works better with rush and beat, but if you people really want to discard plant barrier, I will get used to because this is for the sake of covering every matchup.

 

[Fenrir VII]

@ mega4000 , how are DownB and UpB linked? because honestly I'm not seeing how they interact in the least.

 

[mega4000]

@ mega4000 , how are DownB and UpB linked? because honestly I'm not seeing how they interact in the least.

first you should perform the tornado hold, then as soon as you can act, you press down b to release plant barrier. If it didn't connect the tornado hold, try to position yourself behind your opponent, if it did connect, wait for him on the ground while you have the advantage, (you can jump and dodge and deal damage with the leafs). You won't get any lag at landing if you do this right but remember that every b move cause phantom lag, so next time you jump use a jab. This tech really frustrates people, specially if they are near the edge, because you can repeat it like three times until they can real escape. They don't want to be near your shield so everytime you release it they will try to run away because they can't punish it so easilly as the leaf shield. That's why tornado hold is important to plant barrier.

 

[---]

For those supporting Hyper Bomb/Shadow Blade, what is the preferred set overall for those?

I would think most everyone would agree that there shouldn't be than one set for either, assuming they're popular enough to added to begin with, and this seems like something people would able to easily agree upon.

After that a Tornado Hold set debate.

Since we could go on forever debating them, preference moves should be left up to a poll, and have at least 5 sets be chosen from it IMO.

Also @ --- , looking thru your poll, no Beat sets without Hyper Bomb (>.>) are listed, and the only Tornado Hold option has Crash Bomb, which is far inferior to Danger Wrap imo because TH > DW is a thing and is one of the best things about TH. Pretty sure @ ChopperDave agrees with this.

The Poll just reflects what was said in the last thread. It isn't up to date with all the new opinions that have sprung up in the last 3 weeks (which is rather surprising to see).

Am currently debating how to tackle a new poll. Whether to restart the one in this thread, make a separate thread with only a poll, or a new thread entirely for custom discussion. Let me know what you guys would prefer as I don't want to disrupt discussion nor make a poll that no one votes in.

 

[Fenrir VII]

@ mega4000 , I just feel like (A) there are better options than PB on hit or miss of tornado hold and (B) leaf shield does the same thing in that particular scenario, and is more useful in others.

Like, on hit from TH, you are practically guaranteed an aerial or danger wrap. I'm not giving that up to try to get 3% from leaves on their landing. On miss, leaves are good to cover the landing, but you can still get usmashed, etc if the opponent reacts. Idk I just think there are better options *shrug

 

[ChopperDave]

@ mega4000 , I just feel like (A) there are better options than PB on hit or miss of tornado hold and (B) leaf shield does the same thing in that particular scenario, and is more useful in others.

Like, on hit from TH, you are practically guaranteed an aerial or danger wrap. I'm not giving that up to try to get 3% from leaves on their landing. On miss, leaves are good to cover the landing, but you can still get usmashed, etc if the opponent reacts. Idk I just think there are better options *shrug

I think what @ mega4000 is getting at here (if I'm reading him correctly) is that Leaf Shield, Plant Barrier, and Skull Barrier all cancel the landing lag from Tornado Hold. So the nice thing about Tornado Hold is that you can safely set up a Plant Barrier by walling off your opponent's approach with a Tornado Hold, then activating Plant Barrier at the apex.

I just tested this out and here's how it works. If you Full Hop -> Tornado Hold -> Plant Barrier, the PB will cancel your landing lag from the TH. You'll be ready to put up your shield or dash as soon as you touch down to the stage. Pretty cool! If you try this at any height lower than a Full Hop, you'll still land with lag from the PB activation.

This trick also works with Leaf Shield and Skull Barrier. With LS, you can use TH at short hop height or higher, and LS will cancel your landing lag; with SB, you can use TH from "jump-cancelled UpB" height and SB will cancel your landing lag.

It ALSO works with both Rush and Beat. So you can use Beat to go up and over someone's edgeguard attemps, then activate a shield as soon as Beat goes away to cancel the landing lag.

One thing to note is that you HAVE to to activate the shield as soon as the UpB move is over. As far as I can tell, if you double jump after UpB and then activate the shield, you'll still get phantom lag.

Pretty cool finds all around. I'm inclined to agree with @ Fenrir VII in that this seems, to me, to be better for LS than PB, because LS's quicker activation allows you to better use it in combination with TH for stage control.

 

[mega4000]

I think what @ mega4000 is getting at here (if I'm reading him correctly) is that Leaf Shield, Plant Barrier, and Skull Barrier all cancel the landing lag from Tornado Hold. So the nice thing about Tornado Hold is that you can safely set up a Plant Barrier by walling off your opponent's approach with a Tornado Hold, then activating Plant Barrier at the apex.

I just tested this out and here's how it works. If you Full Hop -> Tornado Hold -> Plant Barrier, the PB will cancel your landing lag from the TH. You'll be ready to put up your shield or dash as soon as you touch down to the stage. Pretty cool! If you try this at any height lower than a Full Hop, you'll still land with lag from the PB activation.

This trick also works with Leaf Shield and Skull Barrier. With LS, you can use TH at short hop height or higher, and LS will cancel your landing lag; with SB, you can use TH from "jump-cancelled UpB" height and SB will cancel your landing lag.

It ALSO works with both Rush and Beat. So you can use Beat to go up and over someone's edgeguard attemps, then activate a shield as soon as Beat goes away to cancel the landing lag.

One thing to note is that you HAVE to to activate the shield as soon as the UpB move is over. As far as I can tell, if you double jump after UpB and then activate the shield, you'll still get phantom lag.

Pretty cool finds all around. I'm inclined to agree with @ Fenrir VII in that this seems, to me, to be better for LS than PB, because LS's quicker activation allows you to better use it in combination with TH for stage control.

You gotta play alot with plant barrier to understand the benefits, but as I said, if you people really want to drop plant barrier, I can get used to leaf shield, but you shoudn't do that without testing the weapon. Also pls don't replace plant barrier sets for crappy sets that nobody is gonna use.

Ok, so I hit the lab and I made up my mind. We need to get and agreement before march so I considered everything here people say and put this list. Tell me what you think about these sets:
0. 1111 Default
1. 1112 Default + Skull Barrier
2. 1311 Rush
3. 1312 Rush
4. 1321 Toarnado Hold
5. 1322 Tornado Hold
6. 1331 Beat
7. 1332 Beat
8. 2231 Ice Slasher
9. 2132 Hyper Bomb
10.3321 Shadow Blade
Beat is with hyper bomb in order to go deep and shadow blade is considered a close range set up so it's stupid to have skull barrier because in a long range battle you can't depend just on skull barrier, and leaf shield at least gives you a long range weapon. Also, The only way ice slasher can work is with hyper bomb, because with metal blade it plains sucks and in the case of hyper bomb + crash bomb, is a set designed to fight pacman and villager.

 

[Peabnut Bubber]

@ mega4000 The Beat + Skull Barrier sets (#7 and #9) don't make sense. If you are using Beat, that means the opponent can't really attack you well off stage. If you are using Skull Barrier, that means the opponent has projectiles. See, if they have projectiles, they can probably attack you off stage. Having Beat against someone with projectiles is a no-go.

 

[mega4000]

@ mega4000 The Beat + Skull Barrier sets (#7 and #9) don't make sense. If you are using Beat, that means the opponent can't really attack you well off stage. If you are using Skull Barrier, that means the opponent has projectiles. See, if they have projectiles, they can probably attack you off stage. Having Beat against someone with projectiles is a no-go.

what about the villager matchup? I mean, villager can't do a thing against skull barrier and with beat you can follow him very deep, same as with pacman.
PD: I think I get your point.. I'm not a fan of beat, but there are people who want him and I swear I've read something about the villager matchup and that of course brings skull barrier, but I think in that case tornado hold would be way better to gimp him.

 

[Locke 06]

Beat is with hyper bomb in order to go deep and shadow blade is considered a close range set up so it's stupid to have skull barrier because in a long range battle you can't depend just on skull barrier, and leaf shield at least gives you a long range weapon. Also, The only way ice slasher can work is with hyper bomb, because with metal blade it plains sucks and in the case of hyper bomb + crash bomb, is a set designed to fight pacman and villager.

I don't see the connection between hyper bomb and going deep. If Enker's video showed anything about hyper bomb, it showed how it can be used to gimp from a safe distance (it even said it twice), eliminating the need to go as deep as maybe metal blade or shadow blade.

And, please, elaborate why ice slasher with metal blade "plains sucks." I have yet to try out ice slasher with shadow blade or hyper bomb, but I find IS to work well in conjunction with metal blade in matchups I do use IS for.

Don't really want to ask you again, but please be respectful of the other people in this discussion. Whether or not you intend to, your phrasing makes you seem very closed minded and unwilling to listen or respect the other people in the discussion.

 

[mega4000]

I don't see the connection between hyper bomb and going deep. If Enker's video showed anything about hyper bomb, it showed how it can be used to gimp from a safe distance (it even said it twice), eliminating the need to go as deep as maybe metal blade or shadow blade.

And, please, elaborate why ice slasher with metal blade "plains sucks." I have yet to try out ice slasher with shadow blade or hyper bomb, but I find IS to work well in conjunction with metal blade in matchups I do use IS for.

Don't really want to ask you again, but please be respectful of the other people in this discussion. Whether or not you intend to, your phrasing makes you seem very closed minded and unwilling to listen or respect the other people in the discussion.

feel free to change any of the sets I put there. Also, if you could make a better ice slasher set I would be grateful. Could you suggest 10 sets too?

 

[Locke 06]

The ones I have personally used in serious games:

1311 (DW default)
1211 (IS default)
1112 (Skull default)
1131 (Beat default - just starting to use beat)

And ones that I've considered using in the past due to discussion but haven't seriously tried them due mostly to matchups and the characters I play against in a customs environment:

1312 (Danger Wrap, Skull Barrier, default - lose long range for some DW's close range)
1213 (IS, Plant Barrier, Default)

Reasoning:
IS' mid-range doesn't synergize with Skull Barrier well in my experience, as Skull Barrier is either a deterrent against long range projectiles (which makes your opponent try to get close) or you're reflecting in mid-range against something that will usually out prioritize IS.

Since IS takes stage control, you get some breathing room to set up leaf shield/item metal blade if you decide not to follow up with UAirs or what not. In theory, you can optimize this with Plant Barrier as it takes more time to start up, but is a better offensive tool than Leaf Shield. That said, the down side is not being able to use Leaf Shield quickly in neutral/disadvantage.

I haven't gotten around to Hyper Bomb at all and I tried out Shadow Blade early in the game but found it severely lacking in comparison to Metal Blade. The benefit of your opponents being unable to steal Shadow Blade is overshadowed by the downside of not being able to use the item metal blade, which is incredibly good due to the amount of versatility you gain with it (z-drop, OOS, Down-B synergy, Jump cancelled toss). The fact that it does 5% or 10%, doesn't stale, and can lead to a whole lot of good things is incredible.

Beat is starting to grow on me, but I need more experience with it. It's very apparent how well it works. I don't have a lot of matchup experience with customs, which is a big issue, as I think Mega Man's customs are very matchup/playstyle oriented rather than straight upgrades or down grades (with the exception of Shadow Blade, but that's just me).

I don't feel comfortable suggesting 10, due to my inexperience with Beat/Tornado Hold, Plant Barrier, and the other 2 B customs... So I won't. However, the 10 I'd put on my Wii U are the 6 above and then swapping Rush for Beat in all of them except 1131 (already has Beat) and 1112 for the reasons @ Peabnut Bubber stated. Then I'd put the more experimental ones on my 3DS to lab out. I think the 6 I listed have definite merits and should be considered. However, with the recent Tornado Hold and Hyper Bomb stuff... I can't say I feel good about cutting anything in favor of another set.


In fact, eliminating sets might actually be a decent way to go about this process.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

surprised i haven't seen anyone suggest 2311 or 2312

shadow blade is situational but does act as a great disruption move vs characters like diddy kong, luigi and captain falcon who rely on approaching with grabs as if they avoid the first shot of shadow blade and grab you they in most instances will get caught by the returning blade. And if they throw you immediately the blade can potentially disrupt their followup attempts. Shadow blade also at close range setups up for guaranteed utilt at KO %'s. Combined with danger wrap allows you to effectively cover a lot of options which in general Megaman doesn't have much trouble doing with default but i feel that this makes it a lot easier. The option for skull barrier or leaf shield comes down to whether or not the opponent has projectiles that you can reflect or not and whether or not you want to run the risk vs a projectile user like ness to get through your projectiles.

Just felt i'd throw my own 2 cents into the discussion based on my experience with these customs.

 

[mega4000]

surprised i haven't seen anyone suggest 2311 or 2312

shadow blade is situational but does act as a great disruption move vs characters like diddy kong, luigi and captain falcon who rely on approaching with grabs as if they avoid the first shot of shadow blade and grab you they in most instances will get caught by the returning blade. And if they throw you immediately the blade can potentially disrupt their followup attempts. Shadow blade also at close range setups up for guaranteed utilt at KO %'s. Combined with danger wrap allows you to effectively cover a lot of options which in general Megaman doesn't have much trouble doing with default but i feel that this makes it a lot easier. The option for skull barrier or leaf shield comes down to whether or not the opponent has projectiles that you can reflect or not and whether or not you want to run the risk vs a projectile user like ness to get through your projectiles.

Just felt i'd throw my own 2 cents into the discussion based on my experience with these customs.

I think you made a mistake. Your sets are 2311 and 2312 which are hyper bomb sets, yet you are talking about shadow blade. I think you mean 3311 and 3312 which in that case I think you shoudn't use shadow blade with rush, because the great thing about shadow blade is his close range advantage, and having rush with it instead of tornado hold takes a lot of that advantage, specially when you try to combine rush with shadow blade and because of the short range the weapon has, it won't be useful( i think metal blade is superior in that case).

The ones I have personally used in serious games:

1311 (DW default)
1211 (IS default)
1112 (Skull default)
1131 (Beat default - just starting to use beat)

And ones that I've considered using in the past due to discussion but haven't seriously tried them due mostly to matchups and the characters I play against in a customs environment:

1312 (Danger Wrap, Skull Barrier, default - lose long range for some DW's close range)
1213 (IS, Plant Barrier, Default)

Reasoning:
IS' mid-range doesn't synergize with Skull Barrier well in my experience, as Skull Barrier is either a deterrent against long range projectiles (which makes your opponent try to get close) or you're reflecting in mid-range against something that will usually out prioritize IS.

Since IS takes stage control, you get some breathing room to set up leaf shield/item metal blade if you decide not to follow up with UAirs or what not. In theory, you can optimize this with Plant Barrier as it takes more time to start up, but is a better offensive tool than Leaf Shield. That said, the down side is not being able to use Leaf Shield quickly in neutral/disadvantage.

I haven't gotten around to Hyper Bomb at all and I tried out Shadow Blade early in the game but found it severely lacking in comparison to Metal Blade. The benefit of your opponents being unable to steal Shadow Blade is overshadowed by the downside of not being able to use the item metal blade, which is incredibly good due to the amount of versatility you gain with it (z-drop, OOS, Down-B synergy, Jump cancelled toss). The fact that it does 5% or 10%, doesn't stale, and can lead to a whole lot of good things is incredible.

Beat is starting to grow on me, but I need more experience with it. It's very apparent how well it works. I don't have a lot of matchup experience with customs, which is a big issue, as I think Mega Man's customs are very matchup/playstyle oriented rather than straight upgrades or down grades (with the exception of Shadow Blade, but that's just me).

I don't feel comfortable suggesting 10, due to my inexperience with Beat/Tornado Hold, Plant Barrier, and the other 2 B customs... So I won't. However, the 10 I'd put on my Wii U are the 6 above and then swapping Rush for Beat in all of them except 1131 (already has Beat) and 1112 for the reasons @ Peabnut Bubber stated. Then I'd put the more experimental ones on my 3DS to lab out. I think the 6 I listed have definite merits and should be considered. However, with the recent Tornado Hold and Hyper Bomb stuff... I can't say I feel good about cutting anything in favor of another set.


In fact, eliminating sets might actually be a decent way to go about this process.

Combining your opinion, mine and @ Peabnut Bubber I've put this list:
1. 1112
2. 1311
3. 1312
4. 132(X)
5. 1322
6. 1331
7. 1131
8. Ice Slasher Set
9. Hyper Bomb Set
10. Shadow Blade Set

This 7 sets aren't going anywere I think, but we have to decide between plant barrier or leaf shield for the tornado hold number 4 set. Most people prefer the leaf shield, but we have to consider plant barrier too. (Even if I like plant barrier I would still go for leaf shield). the last 3 sets, I would want you two have a great talk about ice slasher in order to get the best set, while hyper bomb should be asked in the hyper bomb topic. I think it's obvius that the shadow blade one will be either 3321 or 3323. What do you think?

 

[Fenrir VII]

Again keeping in mind that the likely 'final' legal customs ruleset will only allow us 6 different movesets (EVO notwithstanding), I think we really need to drill 6 unique and beneficial movesets, and use the remaining 4 to flip-flop crash bomber/danger wrap, etc. So my top 10 in order would probably look like this:

1. 1311 - obvs
2. 1112 - Skull barrier with crash bomb, which is better than DW against most campers
3. 1331 - Beat and DW, which is more universally useful than CB
4. 1211 - Ice slasher... and in response to earlier comments... metal blade wrecks the chars you'd want this set against.
5. 1321 - imo the optimal Tornado Hold set
6. 1312 - I'm debating this one as it's a repeat of #2 with DW, but I think it's useful. might be replaced by #7 or #8
--------- [Custom Moveset project cut-off]
7. Optimal Hyper Bomb set. Probably 2311
8. Optimal Shadow Blade set. Probably 3321
9-10. either swap crash bomb/danger wrap on #3, #5; swap Beat on any of them; or swap Plant Barrier/Leaf Shield


To reiterate things I've said before...
Neutral B: I think Metal blade is easily our optimal neutral B. That is not to say the other 2 options are bad, but rather that metal blade is that good. Shadow Blade would be incredible if it didn't have so much lag. Seriously if it were 3-5 frames faster, it would rival MB, but the lag on a short range move really leaves you open to punishment. Hyper Bomb is our 2nd best, imo, and it'd be a fine standalone move... at the moment, I just don't like the trade for Metal Blade, honestly, and I have trouble envisioning a matchup where I'd prefer HB.

Side B: All 3 are useful in different circumstances. I really like Crash Bomb against anybody who places an object that it explodes on (Pacman, Villager, Rosa, Duck Hunt, etc), and the shield pressure is great. Ice Slasher has a large amount of value against the slower zoning chars like Ganon/Bowser/etc, so you can reset spacing when things get hairy. Danger Wrap is the move I would take in a blind-pick situation. It covers your recovery, gives a nice trap after throws, kills early, and naturally punishes spot dodging. It's really good.

Up B: it's all a trade. I personally think Rush is our best overall, but the differences are obvious, so hearing from people who use the others leads me to believe they should be included. Beat is a better recovery with slightly less adaptability.. TH is a worse recovery with a downward hitbox, which is something Mega can use.

Down B: Skull Barrier is useful as an anti-camp. I think Leaf Shield and Plant Barrier are too similar to include them both on variations of movesets. I see the backing for PB, but honestly, that startup lag really takes a lot away from the move, imo... I want to be able to throw this move up to avoid bad positions, and the lag just tends to make it a worse position. PB is arguably better for gimping, but not significantly... imo, LS can do everything PB can do with slightly less damage, but also gives faster startup and a throwable projectile, which while not great... is still another tool in the shed (useful for forcing offstage airdodges).

 

[mega4000]

Again keeping in mind that the likely 'final' legal customs ruleset will only allow us 6 different movesets (EVO notwithstanding), I think we really need to drill 6 unique and beneficial movesets, and use the remaining 4 to flip-flop crash bomber/danger wrap, etc. So my top 10 in order would probably look like this:

1. 1311 - obvs
2. 1112 - Skull barrier with crash bomb, which is better than DW against most campers
3. 1331 - Beat and DW, which is more universally useful than CB
4. 1211 - Ice slasher... and in response to earlier comments... metal blade wrecks the chars you'd want this set against.
5. 1321 - imo the optimal Tornado Hold set
6. 1312 - I'm debating this one as it's a repeat of #2 with DW, but I think it's useful. might be replaced by #7 or #8
--------- [Custom Moveset project cut-off]
7. Optimal Hyper Bomb set. Probably 2311
8. Optimal Shadow Blade set. Probably 3321
9-10. either swap crash bomb/danger wrap on #3, #5; swap Beat on any of them; or swap Plant Barrier/Leaf Shield


To reiterate things I've said before...
Neutral B: I think Metal blade is easily our optimal neutral B. That is not to say the other 2 options are bad, but rather that metal blade is that good. Shadow Blade would be incredible if it didn't have so much lag. Seriously if it were 3-5 frames faster, it would rival MB, but the lag on a short range move really leaves you open to punishment. Hyper Bomb is our 2nd best, imo, and it'd be a fine standalone move... at the moment, I just don't like the trade for Metal Blade, honestly, and I have trouble envisioning a matchup where I'd prefer HB.

Side B: All 3 are useful in different circumstances. I really like Crash Bomb against anybody who places an object that it explodes on (Pacman, Villager, Rosa, Duck Hunt, etc), and the shield pressure is great. Ice Slasher has a large amount of value against the slower zoning chars like Ganon/Bowser/etc, so you can reset spacing when things get hairy. Danger Wrap is the move I would take in a blind-pick situation. It covers your recovery, gives a nice trap after throws, kills early, and naturally punishes spot dodging. It's really good.

Up B: it's all a trade. I personally think Rush is our best overall, but the differences are obvious, so hearing from people who use the others leads me to believe they should be included. Beat is a better recovery with slightly less adaptability.. TH is a worse recovery with a downward hitbox, which is something Mega can use.

Down B: Skull Barrier is useful as an anti-camp. I think Leaf Shield and Plant Barrier are too similar to include them both on variations of movesets. I see the backing for PB, but honestly, that startup lag really takes a lot away from the move, imo... I want to be able to throw this move up to avoid bad positions, and the lag just tends to make it a worse position. PB is arguably better for gimping, but not significantly... imo, LS can do everything PB can do with slightly less damage, but also gives faster startup and a throwable projectile, which while not great... is still another tool in the shed (useful for forcing offstage airdodges).

I don't like that you don't have a skull barrier + tornado hold + danger wrap + metal blade set. Tornado Hold is my most used recovery, and every time I use it, I've gimped a lot of characters that coudn't be gimped with other moves. The skull barrier in a campy match with tornado hold is a must. Also this set is way better than the ice slasher one, and having an ice slasher set, hyper bomb set or shadow blade set in the first 6 is a no no for me.

 

[Locke 06]

While I think narrowing it down to 10 for evo and eventually 6 for the final project is important... I would propose coming up with a big list of sets people would like to use first and then evaluating that list. It's a little messy as it is now, making people choose between including and not including sets they are comfortable with. For instance, I don't know if a Tornado Hold default set would be better than an Ice Slasher default set, so how am I supposed to compare the two?

 

[Greward]

1312 is the set I use against ROB and some other characters and I can assure it's good. ROB matchup is pretty important too. Although maybe 1322 is better.

I like @ Fenrir VII 's list but I think there's too much rush coil. For example against Olimar I'd take 1332 instead of 1312. I truly believe the other recovery moves are as good as rush coil or better and we should split the sets accordingly.

1311
1312
1321
1322
1331
1332
+
Hyper bomb set
Shadow Blade set
Ice Slasher set
Crash Bomb set

 

[Fenrir VII]

Ice Slasher definitely warrants a top 6. It fills a gap against several chars that CB/DW aren't as good in. it is uniquely useful in several matchups and is not a repeat of any of the other movesets.

I mostly bias rush coil because the split on preferring it is something like 50% prefer Rush, 25% prefer Beat, 25% prefer TH. against Oli, wouldn't you be worried about beat getting spiked? just a thought. I just don't see the need to cycle every recovery move with LS and SB... we should be able to trim that somewhat.

I also don't think DW is by far our #1 side B, so I don't like seeing every set be 13xx. I do think CB and IS both have uses and both need to be included.

 

[mega4000]

Ice Slasher definitely warrants a top 6. It fills a gap against several chars that CB/DW aren't as good in. it is uniquely useful in several matchups and is not a repeat of any of the other movesets.

I mostly bias rush coil because the split on preferring it is something like 50% prefer Rush, 25% prefer Beat, 25% prefer TH. against Oli, wouldn't you be worried about beat getting spiked? just a thought. I just don't see the need to cycle every recovery move with LS and SB... we should be able to trim that somewhat.

I also don't think DW is by far our #1 side B, so I don't like seeing every set be 13xx. I do think CB and IS both have uses and both need to be included.

For most of us DW > CB, that doesn't mean crash bomb is usless but for me its situational (I woudn't even dare to use crash bomb against a good rosalina, otherwise it will end like every single megaman vs dabuz match, rosalina having higher damage but megaman diying at 50%. Why do that when tornado hold and danger wrap kill luma in just one hit separate and negates her air game completly?). Also, for me everything ice slasher does, crash bomb can do it better(I would never use ice slasher on tournament, not even against game and watch, for that I've crash bomb+metal blade). Danger Wrap has safe kills, crash bomb sets up for pressure kills, what killing combos has ice slasher? the only advantage I see by all the comments is that it lets you grab a metal blade as an item or releasing a leaf shield for free, but that shoudn't be a problem to anyone who knows how to release those things without lagging. Pls, ice slasher fans should post killing setups with that move, because I can get out of it at high percents just by doing dash dancing so aside from sending your opponent into the air without stunning it, how do you expect to kill your opponent with the ice slasher 1211 set? specially if they grab your metal blade? you lost the pressure factor of crash bomb and sending into the air would require a hard read in order to get a kill.

 

[Greward]

Beat is better used as a high recovery than a low recovery in the Oli matchup. All in all he should only be able to spike us in wall stages like Duck Hunt or Willy's omega and the likes.
Beat is overall better when they a) won't really gimp you or b) they will really gimp your other recoveries, like sheik (cause you can recover high snake-like but with a double jump after the upB).

Which matchups would you take Ice slasher? I'm curious. I tried using it in the Rosalina matchup but it felt underwhelming compared to either DW or CB.
DW is better imo because it gives us something we truly desperately need which is a kill move. It also helps us against characters that recover high which is cool since our uair is not enough against good aerial speed and MM doesn't jump very high. It also is easy to combo or get in while we're juggling and deals a high damage compared to most of mega man moveset. You can also use DW as a combo starter and it's easy to follow it up.
Running out of stage - DW is superb as edgeguard too. DW has low lag so we can force our opponent into a position when juggling (cover one side, then go punish the other with an aerial). It's a close range / dash attack trade tool since it will probably pop up at the back of our opponent thus not being stopped by his/her attack and hitting it's hurtbox (very useful against Falcon jab).
DW is hella broken actually lmao, I have gotten kills at super early %s with it, and even against grounded people it kills at around 120%.

I do cycle it with LS/SB because I believe Metal Blade / Danger Wrap are the preferred options and probably the way to go in most matchups. LS (or plant barrier, dunno) / SB are matchup dependant.

 

[---]

While I think narrowing it down to 10 for evo and eventually 6 for the final project is important... I would propose coming up with a big list of sets people would like to use first and then evaluating that list.

Ask and you shall receive. These are all the sets that have been brought up in this thread. I've organized them the best I could based on what seems to be the stand out move in the set. I'd focus on Hyper Bomb/Shadow Blade first before moving onto the others.

1112
1113
1121
1211
1213
1311
1312
1313
1321
1322
1323
1132
1331
1332
1333
2122
2222
2322
2323
2331
2332
3111
3311
3322
3323
3313
3333

 

[PhantomTriforce]

Does anyone know if Tornado Hold can combo into up air for an early kill?

Also could someone tell me what is bad about Beat for recovery?

 

[mega4000]

Ask and you shall receive. These are all the sets that have been brought up in this thread. I've organized them the best I could based on what seems to be the stand out move in the set. I'd focus on Hyper Bomb/Shadow Blade first before moving onto the others.

1112
1113
1121
1211
1213
1311
1312
1313
1321
1322
1323
1132
1331
1332
1333
2122
2222
2322
2323
2331
2332
3111
3311
3322
3323
3313
3333

I think these are the only useful shadow blade sets. I would ignore the others completly (For me, the best one is between leaf shield or plant barrier, I find skull barrier useless because if you are gonna go shadow blade, you shoudn't be facing against a spammer). Don't know what the rest of the users think but we should choose just one or two shadow blade set between this 3.
3321
3322
3323

 

[Peabnut Bubber]

If we are to have one Ice Slasher set, it should be paired with Plant Barrier instead of Leaf Shield.
http://smashboards.com/threads/offi...oveset-project-mega-man.380348/#post-18143387
http://smashboards.com/threads/white-halloween-an-ice-slasher-and-skull-barrier-introduction.381755/

It just has more synergy with PB. 1213 for me.