Sulfur
Smash Apprentice
Just regular brawl. Although the other two are starting to get pretty popular.
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Counterpicking Stages - Current Discussion: PIKACHU
- Thread starter T-block
- Start date
T-block
B2B TST
I think Halberd could work... I don't see any obvious disadvantages here. It might be hard to get at him if he hides under the platform, especially during the first part, but the stage hazards and low ceiling definitely help us here.
T-block
B2B TST
All right let's get this going again? Next up...Kirby
So I think close boundaries will help again.... low ceiling would be nice since Kirby doesn't kill up very often. I don't know how well Kirby does on Brinstar, but it seems like a good pick.
So I think close boundaries will help again.... low ceiling would be nice since Kirby doesn't kill up very often. I don't know how well Kirby does on Brinstar, but it seems like a good pick.
Magik0722
Smash Champion
I like smash vile, small boundries for his low weight character as well as the ability to zero lag switch
MaTA
Smash Ace
I guess halberd is pretty decent cause you can knock him out at lower precents.
anax4aero
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2009
- Messages
- 39
Kirby is extremely versatile on most stages, I don't think it's easy to find one that completely destroys his game.
I would say Norfair is a good option to reduce the chances of him gimping you. Brinstar has the same effect, so it's also good.
I'm not confident about FD, BF, Yoshi's Island or Smashville, Kirby can be really in-your-face with his smashes and grabs and I'm not sure who does better with platforms.
Oh, and ban Rainbow Cruise.
Can't we just think of Kirby as a nerfed MK?
I would say Norfair is a good option to reduce the chances of him gimping you. Brinstar has the same effect, so it's also good.
I'm not confident about FD, BF, Yoshi's Island or Smashville, Kirby can be really in-your-face with his smashes and grabs and I'm not sure who does better with platforms.
Oh, and ban Rainbow Cruise.
Can't we just think of Kirby as a nerfed MK?
T-block
B2B TST
Halberd sounds really hot... ceiling kills all day <3 I can't think of any reason not to go there. I like Smashville too, although I think there are better CP's. Probably ban Rainbow Cruise or Frigate Orpheon as usual. Jungle Japes is really bad too.
I wanna know what you guys think about Brinstar though. Kirby beats out Squirtle in the air imo, but Squirtle can still cope. I think Ivysaur would really wreck Kirby here though.
I wanna know what you guys think about Brinstar though. Kirby beats out Squirtle in the air imo, but Squirtle can still cope. I think Ivysaur would really wreck Kirby here though.
i kind of like FD if i'm planning on focusing on gay and safe with charizard since it gives me a lot of room to run away from and zone out kirby's weak approach options with flamethrowers and rock smashes. and the lack of platforms mean kirby won't juggle you as well.
T-block
B2B TST
Actually I do use FD quite a bit against Kirby, but I figured there were probably better options. I'll list it now that someone agrees with me =x Ivysaur does really well against Kirby on FD.
So I played around with Brinstar and it's good stuff. Low ceiling, close sides make gimping less of an issue, as does the acid. I find Squirtle has to play a little less aggressively than usual here, but Squirtle can definitely compete with Kirby in the air with some smart use of platforms. Ivy is just really cool...the stage helps you take advantage of Kirby's poor approaches. I don't think Charizard is very viable against Kirby on this stage though, so if you like to use Zard (I sometimes do) in this matchup, maybe stay away from this stage.
So I played around with Brinstar and it's good stuff. Low ceiling, close sides make gimping less of an issue, as does the acid. I find Squirtle has to play a little less aggressively than usual here, but Squirtle can definitely compete with Kirby in the air with some smart use of platforms. Ivy is just really cool...the stage helps you take advantage of Kirby's poor approaches. I don't think Charizard is very viable against Kirby on this stage though, so if you like to use Zard (I sometimes do) in this matchup, maybe stay away from this stage.
Bestiarius
Smash Ace
First, just to get it out of the way, Kirby is not a nerfed MK; his playstyle is entirely different. All they have in common is weight and 5 jumps.
Now, about stages. Castle Siege is probably pretty good, as is Brinstar. However, I think the best stage would be Norfair. Kirby's aerial skills are murder and any stage with only two sides to grab (like BF or FD) is risky. Any grounded stage is probably good too for cutting down on WoP-age.
Now, about stages. Castle Siege is probably pretty good, as is Brinstar. However, I think the best stage would be Norfair. Kirby's aerial skills are murder and any stage with only two sides to grab (like BF or FD) is risky. Any grounded stage is probably good too for cutting down on WoP-age.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
I also like Battlefield against Kirby. His throw combo early on against Charizard annoys me, and the platforms are a nice way to escape. XD
I also agree with magik's choice of Smashville. This is one of the few matchups I really really really hate using Charizard in, so the zero switch is a huge plus.
I also agree with magik's choice of Smashville. This is one of the few matchups I really really really hate using Charizard in, so the zero switch is a huge plus.
Bestiarius
Smash Ace
I always play my friend's Kirby on BF and Smashville and it's not so bad, but I think that another stage that is considered one of PT's best stages, like Norfair, would be better.
P.S. On stages that aren't grounded completely (like Bridge of Eldin) Kirbycide ***** all of PT's recoveries. It always takes all the jumps from my Charizard, though that might be because I press the jump button while I'm sucked in. The worst part is, Kirby doesn't even have to die; he can just suck us in, walk off, spit us out, and recover.
P.S. On stages that aren't grounded completely (like Bridge of Eldin) Kirbycide ***** all of PT's recoveries. It always takes all the jumps from my Charizard, though that might be because I press the jump button while I'm sucked in. The worst part is, Kirby doesn't even have to die; he can just suck us in, walk off, spit us out, and recover.
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B2B TST
Kay so in the spirit of improving PT I request more activity in this thread ^^ I'll be more dedicated to it too, I promise
Dixie Kong gogo
Stage strike: Final destination, Yoshi's Island/Smashville
Not sure here...he does pretty well on most neutrals. Final D should go for sure. I think Battlefield or Lylat would be where I'd want to take him.
CP: Brinstar, Norfair, Rainbow Cruise (lol), Luigi's Mansion, Pokemon Stadium 1
Brinstar and Norfair yay. They're not the best Diddy stages either. Rainbow Cruise kills his banana game, and his recovery is basically as bad as ours when it comes to that stage. It would also let Charizard play decently imo. Luigi's and PS1 are on there because they're large stages and Diddy can't KO lol.
Ban: Final Destination
I dunno why you'd ban anything else... maybe Pictochat or something?
Dixie Kong gogo
Stage strike: Final destination, Yoshi's Island/Smashville
Not sure here...he does pretty well on most neutrals. Final D should go for sure. I think Battlefield or Lylat would be where I'd want to take him.
CP: Brinstar, Norfair, Rainbow Cruise (lol), Luigi's Mansion, Pokemon Stadium 1
Brinstar and Norfair yay. They're not the best Diddy stages either. Rainbow Cruise kills his banana game, and his recovery is basically as bad as ours when it comes to that stage. It would also let Charizard play decently imo. Luigi's and PS1 are on there because they're large stages and Diddy can't KO lol.
Ban: Final Destination
I dunno why you'd ban anything else... maybe Pictochat or something?
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
I like the idea of CPing Rainbow Cruise, especially since we can zero switch there if one of our Pokemon isn't matching up well.
I'm not as sold on Luigi's Mansion, though. Yes, we can tech like crazy there and survive to much higher percents, but doesn't Diddy have some kind of annoying upB combo (Well, as much of a combo that exists in Brawl.) underneath the house? I recall seeing Gness's Diddy do something like that in-tourney.
I'm not as sold on Luigi's Mansion, though. Yes, we can tech like crazy there and survive to much higher percents, but doesn't Diddy have some kind of annoying upB combo (Well, as much of a combo that exists in Brawl.) underneath the house? I recall seeing Gness's Diddy do something like that in-tourney.
T-block
B2B TST
I've never heard of anything like that, but it sounds pretty cool... to be honest when I put that in I was only thinking of Charizard surviving to over 200% even with the house destroyed lol. It's probably not such a good idea though. Bananas in those enclosed spaces would get pretty lame
Definitely Ban FD. As for Neutrals I don't think Lylat is one unless thats changed recently in some regions. In any event Battlefield is definitely Diddy's worst neurtal stage. The platforms get in the way of bananas.
Stadium 1 is ok but on the default stage positioning he'll have no problems getting the banana game going. On the plus side some of stage switches should give you a chance to switch.
Brinstar and norfair are good. Lylat causes similar problems to him as battlefield and may mess with his recovery a bit if he has to use Up B. And you can use Baton Pass or whatever we're calling it.
Edit: Btw is Luigi's mansion even legal in most regions?
Stadium 1 is ok but on the default stage positioning he'll have no problems getting the banana game going. On the plus side some of stage switches should give you a chance to switch.
Brinstar and norfair are good. Lylat causes similar problems to him as battlefield and may mess with his recovery a bit if he has to use Up B. And you can use Baton Pass or whatever we're calling it.
Edit: Btw is Luigi's mansion even legal in most regions?
T-block
B2B TST
Eh...as long as it's legal in some regions we'll consider it in this thread. It doesn't matter much here - I'm pretty convinced it's not a good choice at all haha.
I'm thinking Lylat would be better than Battlefield right now. Lylat's platforms mess with bananas more than Battlefield's imo, and the tilting is probably worse for Diddy than it is for us.
I'm thinking Lylat would be better than Battlefield right now. Lylat's platforms mess with bananas more than Battlefield's imo, and the tilting is probably worse for Diddy than it is for us.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
Mansion's been banned at all the LA and AL tournaments I've been to. It's not banned in Texas, though.
Gnes
Smash Master
Yes diddy can Up B into the ceiling of the mansion. If hit by it u get take 18% from the explosion. Diddy takes 5%. Also getting hit by diddy's Up B before the explosion does 12% i believe.
Bestiarius
Smash Ace
Yeah, Mansion would suck. I don't know any really good Diddy Kongs, so I tried looking on the Diddy Boards for clues on what stages piss them off (kinda how everybody knows we hate Frigate). The only thing I could get was that Diddy HAS to have momentum in order to do well, which we all already know. But, basing it off of that, here are my picks for stages that would probably be bad for Diddy (some regardless of how awful we would suck there and this is just me brainstorming):
NEUTRAL:
Battlefield
NON-NEUTRAL:
Delfino Plaza
Rumble Falls
Pirate Ship
Norfair
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Distant Planet (which I'm pretty sure is usually banned)
New Pork City (which should be banned because of size)
Summit
75 m
Hanenbow (?? It'd be really hard to pull off a Banana Lock ??)
Green Hill Zone
Corneria
Rainbow Cruise
Brinstar
From those, I think our best stages against Diddy would be:
Battlefield
Delfino Plaza
Norfair
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Summit
Green Hill Zone
Corneria
This is just my brainstormed ideas, so I know they're not best. What stages are usually banned, both at tournies and by Diddy mains? That list could help me personally a lot.
Edit: I just tested out Hanenbow against a level 9 Diddy (not a good method ata all, I know, but a level 9 Diddy is one of the better cpu's) and I think Hanenbow would be a great Counter Pick. Nearly impossible for Diddy to gain momentum, Squirtle is sooooo much fun to use here, and as long as you don't try to recover near the middle of the stage in the tree part, especially with Ivy, you should do great, I think.
NEUTRAL:
Battlefield
NON-NEUTRAL:
Delfino Plaza
Rumble Falls
Pirate Ship
Norfair
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Distant Planet (which I'm pretty sure is usually banned)
New Pork City (which should be banned because of size)
Summit
75 m
Hanenbow (?? It'd be really hard to pull off a Banana Lock ??)
Green Hill Zone
Corneria
Rainbow Cruise
Brinstar
From those, I think our best stages against Diddy would be:
Battlefield
Delfino Plaza
Norfair
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Summit
Green Hill Zone
Corneria
This is just my brainstormed ideas, so I know they're not best. What stages are usually banned, both at tournies and by Diddy mains? That list could help me personally a lot.
Edit: I just tested out Hanenbow against a level 9 Diddy (not a good method ata all, I know, but a level 9 Diddy is one of the better cpu's) and I think Hanenbow would be a great Counter Pick. Nearly impossible for Diddy to gain momentum, Squirtle is sooooo much fun to use here, and as long as you don't try to recover near the middle of the stage in the tree part, especially with Ivy, you should do great, I think.
T-block
B2B TST
There's a standard stage list in the first post, Bestiarius 
I second Diddy now, and I'll ban Rainbow Cruise unless I'm playing against someone who would never go there. I think Diddy's ban Brinstar as well, but since I play PT I have no problems going there. Why do you think Pirate Ship is bad for Diddy? I might agree with you there.
I second Diddy now, and I'll ban Rainbow Cruise unless I'm playing against someone who would never go there. I think Diddy's ban Brinstar as well, but since I play PT I have no problems going there. Why do you think Pirate Ship is bad for Diddy? I might agree with you there.
That's some good research there Beast. Hanenbow's banned fyi. Check out the stage legality stage. Different regions have different stages allowed though.
Norfair is on its way to being banned, but would work well vs most Diddys.
Rainbow cruuuuuuuise. Zero switch, no nanas? Yes plz. But, since they'll probably ban that, Brinstar. Learn to abuse the stage. The floors uneven ground and close platforms will make for a difficult banana lock.
So in conclusion, RC. If banned, norfair/brinstar. (Y)
These.
Norfair is on its way to being banned, but would work well vs most Diddys.
Rainbow cruuuuuuuise. Zero switch, no nanas? Yes plz. But, since they'll probably ban that, Brinstar. Learn to abuse the stage. The floors uneven ground and close platforms will make for a difficult banana lock.
So in conclusion, RC. If banned, norfair/brinstar. (Y)
Bestiarius
Smash Ace
Oops. I didn't know there was standard on the first page. I just went to the latest post and added my 2 cents. I think Pirate Ship might be bad for Diddy for a few reasons. Uneven-ish ground, a few platforms, the "!" part of the stage where it hits the big gray thing, and the shooting ship messes up combos. Plus, PT, especially Zard, tends to be really good at holding ground, and if you can stay on that top platform, each cannonball does 50% with sick explosive knockback.
Yeah, I thought Hanenbow would be banned. TB; it would be sick.
The only problem that I can think of with Brinstar is that it seems like Diddy would be able to gimp us really easily. Other than that, I like those 3 you mentioned, Vermy, plus Lylat Cruise. Also, definately go BF neutral and ban FD.
Yeah, I thought Hanenbow would be banned. TB; it would be sick.
That's from the School of Redundancy School.
The only problem that I can think of with Brinstar is that it seems like Diddy would be able to gimp us really easily. Other than that, I like those 3 you mentioned, Vermy, plus Lylat Cruise. Also, definately go BF neutral and ban FD.
I'm just going to shorten the list based on what is banned.
NEUTRAL:
Battlefield
NON-NEUTRAL:
Delfino Plaza
Pirate Ship
Norfair (sometimes banned)
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Distant Planet (Sometimes banned sometimes not)
Rainbow Cruise
Brinstar
Brinstar is a stage thats pretty bad for Diddy and pretty good for PT so I'd say thats a good CP when its legal. (I think it is more often than not legal although once in a while it will be banned). Ivy's recovery isn't an issue. Diddy's air game is ok but can't compete with Squirtle here.
Delfino is alright. Some sections of the stage he does well in and others he does not. Take advantage of the walk off sectionw with your throw game.
Castle siege is similar. Part one is fine for us part 2 is good and part three is good for him. Just make sure that when part three rolls around you have Squirtle out.
Norfair is good. Forces aerial combat and is generally poor for stage control characters.
NEUTRAL:
Battlefield
NON-NEUTRAL:
Delfino Plaza
Pirate Ship
Norfair (sometimes banned)
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Distant Planet (Sometimes banned sometimes not)
Rainbow Cruise
Brinstar
Brinstar is a stage thats pretty bad for Diddy and pretty good for PT so I'd say thats a good CP when its legal. (I think it is more often than not legal although once in a while it will be banned). Ivy's recovery isn't an issue. Diddy's air game is ok but can't compete with Squirtle here.
Delfino is alright. Some sections of the stage he does well in and others he does not. Take advantage of the walk off sectionw with your throw game.
Castle siege is similar. Part one is fine for us part 2 is good and part three is good for him. Just make sure that when part three rolls around you have Squirtle out.
Norfair is good. Forces aerial combat and is generally poor for stage control characters.
T-block
B2B TST
The thing with Delfino and Castle Siege is that the walkoffs can be easy kills for Diddy thanks to the banana locks. It's probably not that bad, but I think the other ones we mentioned are better choices.
Bestiarius, Brinstar means Diddy doesn't gimp as as easily. The acid can help our recovery...it's one of the reasons why Brinstar is such a good stage for PT. I like Pirate Ship as well for that reason. No gimp kills means Diddy will have a hard time getting the kill. This advantage is somewhat nullified by the fact that Charizard doesn't do so well in this matchup, but extra survivability for Squirtle is never a bad thing.
Bestiarius, Brinstar means Diddy doesn't gimp as as easily. The acid can help our recovery...it's one of the reasons why Brinstar is such a good stage for PT. I like Pirate Ship as well for that reason. No gimp kills means Diddy will have a hard time getting the kill. This advantage is somewhat nullified by the fact that Charizard doesn't do so well in this matchup, but extra survivability for Squirtle is never a bad thing.
SuorGenoveffa
Smash Apprentice
Honestly, I would take Diddy to Norfair any day of the year. I've always found it to be an amazing stage for PT and it forces Diddy to adapt to a style that relies less on stage control and more on close combat = Squirtle dominates. I also think that it makes the battle way less frustrating for both Ivysaur and Charizard, but maybe that's just me. Also, it helps with early vertical kills, and we have an edge against Diddy on that.
I don't know if it's really possible though, are many tourneys banning Norfair nowadays?
I don't know if it's really possible though, are many tourneys banning Norfair nowadays?
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
Norfair's banned in Texas but has been legal in tournaments I've attended in Alabama and Louisiana.
Magik0722
Smash Champion
Gnes: Confirmed name searcher
Well because of the stage striking system, when battling a diddy kong the first stage will always be battle field. RC is the best counter pick for diddy of course. Brinstar is the second best after they ban RC
Well because of the stage striking system, when battling a diddy kong the first stage will always be battle field. RC is the best counter pick for diddy of course. Brinstar is the second best after they ban RC
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
I asked Gness to come here and post.
ChocoNaner
Smash Journeyman
Noooooo, Brinstar is better than any other stage for PT, against Diddy. For Norfair....
Norfair's multiple edges make Ivy wayyyyyy less gimpable, but the fire elemental weakness will be exploited more here, Ivy's usable here. Squirtle is Squirtle, his fire elemental endurance will help him survive, and withdraw making him practically invincible will help him survive the lava wave and every other lava-related hazard there, and seeing as air game is a huge factor on this stage, you don't have to worry about Squirtle being destroyed. As for Zard, he doesn't have to worry about an elemental weakness to lava, his speed though will get him wrecked here. Diddy being an agile little chimp, runs circles around Zard, add naners, he dances around a tripping Zard. :/
In my own opinion
Ivy vs. Diddy on Norfair - 50:50 or 45:55 Diddy's favor
Squirtle vs. Diddy on Norfair - 50:50 to a possible 40-60 Squirtle's favor(60-40 if Squirtle can gain control of both naners and use them efficiently)
Zard vs. Diddy on Norfair - looking at a possible 45:55 to 35-65 Diddy' favor
Now that PT vs. Didds on Norfair is covered by a nub...
Delfino and Castle Siege are good stages out of legal stages, Pirate Ship too but I think it's banned in most places. Every other place, shouldn't change the MU drastically from what it's normally like.
Norfair's multiple edges make Ivy wayyyyyy less gimpable, but the fire elemental weakness will be exploited more here, Ivy's usable here. Squirtle is Squirtle, his fire elemental endurance will help him survive, and withdraw making him practically invincible will help him survive the lava wave and every other lava-related hazard there, and seeing as air game is a huge factor on this stage, you don't have to worry about Squirtle being destroyed. As for Zard, he doesn't have to worry about an elemental weakness to lava, his speed though will get him wrecked here. Diddy being an agile little chimp, runs circles around Zard, add naners, he dances around a tripping Zard. :/
In my own opinion
Ivy vs. Diddy on Norfair - 50:50 or 45:55 Diddy's favor
Squirtle vs. Diddy on Norfair - 50:50 to a possible 40-60 Squirtle's favor(60-40 if Squirtle can gain control of both naners and use them efficiently)
Zard vs. Diddy on Norfair - looking at a possible 45:55 to 35-65 Diddy' favor
Now that PT vs. Didds on Norfair is covered by a nub...
Delfino and Castle Siege are good stages out of legal stages, Pirate Ship too but I think it's banned in most places. Every other place, shouldn't change the MU drastically from what it's normally like.
Miles.
Smash Champion
Wait, did a non PT main just say that?
T-block
B2B TST
thanks kith <3 i thought most people saw this as a waste of space tbh, and the discussions have been lacking recently. i'll get it going again
Awesome. I wish I had something to contribute to the Diddy Kong discussion, but unfortunately I don't play many good diddy kongs at FIU. I would have to agree that Norfair would be a alright choice, but unfortunately Norfair is banned in most south florida tournaments :-\. Where else might be good?
T-block
B2B TST
I think between Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar we have Diddy covered pretty well
I actually wanna go back to some of the older discussions and see if the discovery of Baton Passing changes anything. More specifically...
Could Rainbow Cruise be our #2 (after Brinstar) or even #1 pick against Snake?
-it was already a decent possibility... and now it would be a lot easier to have Squirtle out for all 3 stocks
Is it worth CPing Marth to Rainbow Cruise?
-Squuuiiiirtle... maximize time with him, and the nature of the stage limits his grab release, although it could lead to a spike in some unfortunate places; not sure about this one
I actually wanna go back to some of the older discussions and see if the discovery of Baton Passing changes anything. More specifically...
Could Rainbow Cruise be our #2 (after Brinstar) or even #1 pick against Snake?
-it was already a decent possibility... and now it would be a lot easier to have Squirtle out for all 3 stocks
Is it worth CPing Marth to Rainbow Cruise?
-Squuuiiiirtle... maximize time with him, and the nature of the stage limits his grab release, although it could lead to a spike in some unfortunate places; not sure about this one