Counterpicking Stages - Current Discussion: PIKACHU

[T-block]

Counterpicking/Banning Stages

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So I was thinking it might be good to get some discussion going on about counterpicking and banning stages against certain characters. This is for discussion about character-specific stage choosing strategies. Try to keep the discussion away from simply what stages PT does well on, although that should definitely be a factor, and more towards stages that your opponent's character would do poorly on. Things like what special things PT can do to certain characters on certain stages, along with what special things certain characters can do to PT, etc. Also, remember that stages may be allowed in some tournaments and not others. A more widely accepted choice, in the case that the ideal stage is banned, will help. Stage striking neutrals is also something that could be mentioned. I'll try to cover to more popular tournament characters first, and I'm open to suggestions about which character to cover next. These discussions will probably move fairly quickly, so feel free to add something to a previous character if you think of something.

This guide is not absolute. Counterpicking stages is a process that involves a lot more than just strict character advantages/disadvantages. First of all, your own comfort level is a huge factor. If you hate Brinstar and never play it, then who cares what we say - don't take Marth there. However, when it comes to tournaments it's always a good idea to have a good grasp of all legal stages. This will leave all of your options open when CP'ing, and ensure that you yourself are not surprised by a CP. You also need to take into account who your opponent is. Consider that maybe your opponent never plays on Pirate Ship and might get caught off-guard by the bombs. Or that they might be unfamiliar with all the phases of Pictochat. Getting a good stage help tons, turning even matchups into good ones, and impossible matchups into bearable ones. Take this list as a guideline, and if you're looking at a particular matchup, read the notes and even check out the discussion.

This will be based off the SBR Recommended Rule List v2.0. Anything in the Starter, Starter/Counter, and Counter will generally be allowed in most tournaments. We'll look at those in the Counter/Banned list, but alternatives are considered. The stage list is copied here:

Starter
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island

Starter/Counter
Castle Siege
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pokémon Stadium 1

Counter
Brinstar
Delfino
Frigate Orpheon
Jungle Japes
Pictochat
Pirate Ship
Pokémon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise

Counter/Banned
Distant Planet
Green Greens
Luigi's Mansion
Port Town Aero Dive
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)
Norfair

Banned
75m
Big Blue
Bridge of Eldin
Corneria
Flat Zone 2
Green Hill Zone
Hanenbow
Hyrule Temple
Mario Bros.
Mario Circuit
Mushroomy Kingdom I
Mushroomy Kingdom II
New Pork City
Onett
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses
Skyworld
Spear Pillar
The Summit
Wario Ware

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Here we go... the stages listed under Stage Strike: are the recommended stages to strike during a stage strike process (ie- go for one of the other 3 stages). Stages listed under Counterpick: are recommended CPs for the matchup against the character. Stages listed under Ban: are stages where you don't want to be against that character, and would warrant a ban.



Snake:
Stage Strike: Battlefield, Lylat Cruise/Yoshi's Island
Counterpick: Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, Norfair, Pictochat
Ban: Halberd, Corneria, Green Greens

Notes - If you go Norfair, watch out for Snake's d-throw tech chase...with all the platforms it shouldn't be too hard to avoid getting grabbed. Air-camping on Brinstar can be effective, but be careful since Snake can kill Squirtle at rather low percents here. Rainbow Cruise is generally considered one of Snake's worst stages, and the ability to Baton Pass almost anywhere on this stage is very valuable in this matchup.




Marth:
Stage Strike: Final Destination, Smashville
Counterpick: Brinstar, Battlefield, Rainbow Cruise, Lylat Cruise
Ban: Delfino Plaza, Final Destination

Notes - An important idea here is to pick a stage that prevents Marth's grab release on Squirtle from doing too much damage. This makes you actually able to use Squirtle in your game instead of sacrificing him to get to Ivysaur. Brinstar is definitely your best choice here - a good stage for PT and an uncomfortable one for Marth. Rainbow Cruise is another option if you want to maximize your time with Squirtle. Baton Passing helps you do that, and the nature of the stage makes the grab release somewhat less effective. You still have to play carefully though, as it could lead still lead to d-air KOs in some places. Delfino is a good ban choice. It's one of Marth's best stages, and the walkoff parts make his grab release deadly. If your opponent knows about the grab release on Squirtle and you feel he had trouble against your Squirtle in a previous match he might go Final Destination, so you could ban that as well.




Metaknight:
Stage Strike: Smashville, Lylat Cruise
Counterpick: Final Destination, Pictochat, Green Greens, Pirate Ship
Ban: Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon

Notes - The big issue with Metaknight is space. An aggressive Metaknight can pour on a lot of pressure, so spacious stages will help. Final Destination is a good choice, and is generally considered one of Metaknight's worst stages. Pictochat is in general a good PT stage - it has lots of room, and the transformations can help you switch if you need it. If it's legal, Green Greens is a good choice too. It has a low ceiling, but watch out for d-smash on the side platforms, but at the same time use the close horizontal blast zones to your advantage - Charizard's d-tilt works nicely here. Charizard can use Flamethrower to detonate the blocks as well. Pirate Ship also has room, with the added benefit the water prevents him from gimping you outright. Be careful when you're in the water though, and watch out for him hovering over you and hitting you back into the water with d-airs. As for bans, MK is vicious on Rainbow Cruise, but there are other stages that would be good choices as well. Ban what you're comfortable with banning here.




Falco
Stage Strike: Final Destination, Smashville/Yoshi's Island
Counterpick: Brinstar, Norfair, Rainbow Cruise, Lylat Cruise
Ban: Jungle Japes, Final Destination

Notes - The choices are pretty self-explanatory here. Jungle Japes and Final Destination are easily Falco's two best stages. Brinstar has uneven terrain and lava that can disrupt a chain grab. The pillars can block lasers, and the close boundaries help PT. Falco can't get off more than one or two grabs on Norfair, and there are a lot of ledges to help our recoveries. Lylat Cruise has a stage tilt that messes with his laser spam and his recovery. It's a good choice if they ban Brinstar, and Norfair isn't legal in your tournament. Lastly we have Rainbow Cruise - this is a matchup where you'll probably want to maximize Squirtle's time, so get those Baton Passes off and take advantage of his poor recovery.




Wario
Stage Strike: Smashville, Lylat Cruise
Counterpick: Luigi's Mansion, Halberd, Pokemon Stadium 1, Pictochat
Ban: Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon

Notes - Wario is a tough character to counterpick against. There aren't really any stages where he does horribly, so it's probably best to just go with what you're most comfortable with. Luigi's Mansion is a good choice since it somewhat limits aerial combat, and Wario's ground game isn't that great. PT might have some issues getting the KO here though. We can take advantage of the close boundaries at Halberd, and we can play around with grab release into stage hazards.




Mr. Game and Watch
Stage Strike: Lylat Cruise, Yoshi's Island
Counterpick: Brinstar, Castle Siege, Battlefield
Ban: Rainbow Cruise, Green Greens, Corneria

Notes- Yoshi's Island is probably the worst neutral to fight Game and Watch on, but Game and Watch mains seem to hate that stage, so strike it second... more often than not they'll strike it for you. You definitely want to go to a smaller stage here. While that does mean that PT gets KO'd faster by his strong KO moves, it also means you KO him much more quickly. With his bucket brake, he can take advantage of large stages much better than PT can. Brinstar is a good choice as always - Squirtle will do pretty well in this matchup there, and the acid can save you from his edgeguarding game. Castle Siege is nice too... the first stage is small and lets you stay on top of him without giving him room to space, and the second stage nullifies his edgeguard game. Battlefield could also work, but Game and Watch does well on that stage too, so be careful, and I would try not to use Charizard too much if you go there. Banning Rainbow Cruise should be pretty obvious. He camps incredibly well (six ledges, Chef arcs over the blocks) on Green Greens, so fighting him there is a pain. If it's legal, then I would ban Corneria first... he kills ridiculously early, and can bucket the lasers there.




Kirby
Stage Strike: Yoshi's Island, Lylat Cruise
Counterpick: Halberd, Smashville, Final Destination, Brinstar
Ban: Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon

Notes- A low ceiling will help a lot in this matchup. Kirby's kills on any of PT's pokemon will be mostly side boundary and gimp kills, so we can take advantage of a low ceiling better than Kirby can. Kirby also has a much better recovery than we do, so small boundaries in general will help. Also, Kirby has bad approaches. For this reason, Ivysaur and Charizard, especially if given some space, can do well in this matchup by punishing these approaches. This makes Final Destination a good choice, and the lack of platforms there make Kirby's juggling game less effective. Halberd has the low ceiling and the second part of the stage gives quite a bit of space as well. Brinstar has the close boundaries, but Kirby does well here too. Squirtle needs to play a bit more defensively if you come here, but Ivysaur can really do well. Smashville also has fairly close boundaries, and Baton Passing on this stage can help if you really don't want to use a certain pokemon. There seems to be varied opinions on which pokemon do well here, so consider your personal comfort in deciding on a stage. If you don't like using Charizard at all against Kirby, forget Brinstar and consider Smashville to Baton Pass past him. If you like Ivysaur and Charizard, Final Destination would be a good choice. Bans are standard bad PT stages. Kirby does well on those stages too.




Diddy Kong
Stage Strike: Final Destination, Yoshi's Island/Smashville
Counterpick: Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, Norfair
Ban: Final Destination

Notes- You definitely want to stay away from Final Destination, and stage strike towards Battlefield. Brinstar is good for the same reasons as always, and it's not a good stage for Diddy. Rainbow Cruise is interesting, as the nature of the stage limits how much stage control he can gain with the bananas. The ability to Baton Pass on this stage also helps us maximize Squirtle's time in this matchup. Norfair is also an option that limits stage control. Ivysaur does better than normal on this stage.




King Dedede
Stage Strike: Final Destination, Yoshi's Island
Counterpick: Smashville, Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise, Norfair
Ban: Delfino Plaza, Frigate Orpheon

Notes- King Dedede can chain grab Ivysaur and Charizard. Delfino is banned because of the walkoffs/temporary walls, and it can lead to some vicious edgeguards on the ledge-less side of Frigate Orpheon. This is one of PT's hardest matchups, and what stage you go to doesn't help all that much. Smashville is decent for the Baton Passing. Brinstar is all right - KOing can be considerably easier here, and he can't chain grab. It's more difficult for him to grab you on Rainbow Cruise, and the ability to Baton Pass is always a good thing. Lastly, Norfair is as good a stage as any to camp him out if it's not banned. Many ledges makes the edgeguarding less dangerous, and the small platforms makes the chain grab less effective too.




Pikachu
Stage Strike:
Counterpick:
Ban:

~T​

 

[T-block]

Snake is tough... I don't know whether to go with larger stages where there's more room to get around his grenades, or smaller stages where he can't stay away as effectively. In my experience, Snake can turn a small stage into an absolute nightmare. I've done OK on Castle Siege... the first stage is not fun, but if you can get past that, I find the second stage limits him. Ban Smashville or Corneria if it's allowed - Snake owns Corneria so hard. For striking neutrals I always strike Smashville and Battlefield. Also, if for some reason you're sure he'll stay Snake, I might consider Rainbow Cruise... just keep Ivysaur away from the middle section.

 

[Zigsta]

I never like fighting Snake on FD just because there's nowhere to run from his grenades and Snake Dashing. He also does well on Smashville by placing a mine on the floating platform. If you don't pay attention to it, it can lead to an unexpected (for you) KO.

 

[Steeler]

snake doesn't really have any BAD stages. norfair probably helps you out more than it helps him though. i used to think japes was a good cp but you can't see his explosives for ****. plus his camp game there is very good. snake is supposed to hate rainbow cruise but pt doesn't really like it either. particularly ivysaur.

 

[T-block]

Yeah Snake hates RC a lot... I have a friend who plays Snake and always bans RC against me. If you can get Squirtle in the part just after the ship you can do a lot to him since he's forced into the air. The top part of the stage is nice too, since it discourages his camping. If you take Snake to RC I would start Ivysaur so that you play her while you're on the boat.

Don't take him to JJ >_> Outcamps Squirtle and Charizard too easily there, and Ivysaur has trouble killing thanks to the high ceiling.

 

[Retro Gaming]

This is the third thread we've had about stage discussions. This one discusses specific characters, but I don't see why a previous one couldn't have been expanded to include this information, as well.

I'll allow this thread to continue for now, but I'm thinking it should just be merged with the existing Stage Discussion thread in the Index when both are completed.

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Anyway, Corneria is also a no-go with Snake, since honestly it helps him a lot more than it does you. Low ceiling gets them all killed before 80%, as well as he can camp the tail end and attack over the fin with grenades, if he so pleases.

Something that might work in this situation is PictoChat, since the constant changes make his explosives not as effective, as well as the fact that there's both a high ceiling and an "exposed" off-stage area, where its pretty easy for any of the Pokémon to attack from any height. If he tries to come from above, he'll have a long way to drop and you just need to be there when his air dodge/Dair ends.

 

[T-block]

I only found one other thread on stage discussions that's been dead for two months, and I figured this topic is different enough to deserve it's own thread. The discussion has stayed away from "what stages are good for PT" so I think we're ok for now. I'm fine with a merge though.

As for Pictochat, I think it could definitely work. If you manage to get him in a juggle, the hazards can help limit his options as well, and being inside a stage change can help slow the game down if you feel he's gaining too much momentum, or for a pokemon switch. It might be hard to keep track of his C4 though, since I believe if a platform disappears, the C4 drops to the ground.

 

[Steeler]

honestly i always go to pictochat if i don't know what the hell to cp and don't want to go to a neutral.

 

[Magik0722]

Brinstar and norfair all day

 

[Toby.]

Norfair is good, just don't get grabbed on a platform or you'll never get away from the dthrow -> dthrow -> dthrow.

 

[Megapants]

Norfair is probably best. It doesn't exactly hurt Snake, but it doesn't help him either. It takes him down to a more controllable level. Plus, abusing harmful stages can really turn the tides (either way sadly). Just be wary of any C4 (it can be kinda hard to see on Norfair) and lava, and don't get grabbed on platforms.

 

[Magik0722]

well i usually dont use charizard against snake anymore for that dthrow chain he has on him so norair isnt really a problem for me since squirtle and ivysuar can get out of it pretty easy

 

[T-block]

I always thought Snake did really well on Norfair. Mortars and u-tilts make being on a platform above him unsafe, although I guess it goes the other way if you're below him as well. I can see how it would help against grenade camping though, and with all the platforms and the jumping I think not getting grabbed isn't impossible.

My Snake friend ***** on Brinstar though. It seems Snake isn't that affected by the uneven terrain, and he can control the platforms with explosives. The only plus with Brinstar I've seen in my experience is that Squirtle can juggle him really well there.

 

[Zigsta]

Snake's nair doesn't do as well at Norfair than on a stage like Battlefield because the platforms aren't all above the ground at the same level--Norfair's platforms are staggered so that in certain spots Snake's nair is out of range.

And I would not recommend Brinstar against Snake. He can control the stage with his grenades by throwing them at different trajectories against the damageable part of the stage towards the left. My friend's Snake (Winnar) beat the snot out of 3GOD's Wario by using that tactic, and 3GOD is no slouch with Wario, to say the least.

 

[T-block]

Ok, going through the stage list, I see that Delfino might be a good stage. Delfino gives you enough room that Snake can't restrict the stage too much, while at the same time limiting his camping. It probably wouldn't be my first choice though.

Also, I learned the hard way to stay away from Yoshi's Island (pipes). If he gets the left side he can camp stupidly well.

 

[Xyless]

If there's stage striking, take out Smashville and Yoshi's Island. Both are amazing Snake stages due to the platforms being at just the right position for mine combos and traps.

As far as CP'ing, either Pictochat, Norfair, or Rainbow Cruise work against Snake, as most other stages are at least even for him (as already said).

 

[TheReflexWonder]

And I would not recommend Brinstar against Snake. He can control the stage with his grenades by throwing them at different trajectories against the damageable part of the stage towards the left. My friend's Snake (Winnar) beat the snot out of 3GOD's Wario by using that tactic, and 3GOD is no slouch with Wario, to say the least.

Sounds like he wasn't camping hard enough. If you get a lead, it's really easy to air camp for the rest of the game. It's really boring, but so is fighting Snake, so I don't feel bad. I beat Lambchops by doing that. Felt great.

 

[Zigsta]

Sounds like he wasn't camping hard enough. If you get a lead, it's really easy to air camp for the rest of the game. It's really boring, but so is fighting Snake, so I don't feel bad. I beat Lambchops by doing that. Felt great.

This is true; Wario air camps quite well. That Snake quote is very tempting to put in my signature.

 

[TheREALShadowChaos]

Norfair ***** Snakes.

 

[T-block]

Summary:

Stage Strike: Smashville, Battlefield/Yoshi's Island
Ban: Smashville, Corneria, Green Greens
Counterpick: Norfair, Rainbow Cruise, Pictochat



Look good to everyone?

 

[TheREALShadowChaos]

Go Norfair and **** Snake with Squirtle. Seriously, in that stage the advantage is PTs. Snake sucks in Norfair, it screws his ground and edgeguard game, his 2 most important games.
And to top it off Norfair is pretty good for arial characters like Squirtle.

 

[Magik0722]

Really anyone who loses on brinstar is not playing to the stage, you have to start air camping more, sure squirtle gets tired but the trade off is great, i agree to start to go to norfair once every snake starts to ban brinstar on you

 

[T-block]

Ok let's talk Brinstar then.

I see how Squirtle does well, but how do you play Charizard on Brinstar? If he sets a C4 on one of the platforms and starts hucking grenades at me, I always have had a hard time getting past that. The stage is awkward and small enough for Charizard without grenades and C4 covering half of the stage.

 

[Magik0722]

charizard sucks against snake on any stage so i would say do not use him throw him away and get a safe switch

 

[T-block]

I dunno Magik.. I'm still doubtful xP Anyone else have any input on Brinstar?

 

[Toby.]

Magik is right. Because of charizards incredibly bad backwards roll he its super easy for snake to dthrow tech chase.

But if you have to use use him on brinstar, use the attackable sections of the stage on each side to extend the hitbox of rock smash. Work on juggle traps with uair to force them to stay above you and on the platforms rather than on the ground. If they do land, punish their landing lag with a grab and throw them back up again.

With charizard we should be aiming to force them into a position where we can fair them for an early switch.

 

[T-block]

Oh I know Charizard has trouble with Snake... it was Brinstar that I'm wondering about. I guess I'll add it to the CP list. People reading this should know not to pick it if they're not comfortable with it.

Let's do Marth next?

 

[Magik0722]

marth counterpicks will be very similar to snakes

 

[Toby.]

IMO the best anti marth counterpicks are battlefield and brinstar. Both of them disrupt marths chaingrab on squirtle, which more than makes up for the inherent advantage marth gets on stages with platforms. Halberd is also good. Some parts of delphino can protect squirtle from the chain grab, but overall I think marth does better there.

 

[Magik0722]

i think squirtle is bad against marth even without the chain grab so i wouldnt really want to pick a stage that would disrupt it for that sole reason

 

[Toby.]

It is vital that we pick a stage that squirtle can't be chain grabbed on. Otherwise we'll be forced into a switching order that will end up giving the opponent lots of free hits if we intend on getting to charizard quickly. Squirtle is more viable in this matchup than ivysaur, provided we cant be chain grabbed.

I would probably have to write a page just to justify my opinion, though, which is waaay too much effort for the moment.

 

[typh]

brinstar. brinstar. brinstar. brinstar.

oh and brinstar.

BRINSTAR

 

[T-block]

Marth is amazing on Battlefield and Delfino. Battlefield's platforms are perfect for breaking the grab release, but I don't think it's worth it in this case. I don't think Delfino is worth it either, since the platforms are less reliable, and the walkoffs mean big trouble if you do get grabbed on them.

Brinstar is nice, but if Marth bans that, I'm thinking Yoshi's Island. Reliable platform, and it's at an awkward height for Marth. I'm not sure what to think of Frigate, Norfair, and Pictochat. Thoughts on these?

I'd like to hear why you think Squirtle does better than Ivysaur in this matchup, tcranter, if you ever feel like typing something up.


EDIT: Also, if you see anything in the OP about past discussions that you disagree with or feel shouldn't be there, let me know.

 

[Magik0722]

so typh agrees with delfino

 

[Steeler]

i agree with toby, squirtle does fine against marth without the grab release. better than ivysaur. it's so easy for marth to edgeguard ivysaur.

norfair sounds interesting as a cp if you can manage to keep marth above you.

 

[Toby.]

Yeah norfair is a very interesting CP. If marth ever gets below you his control there is extremely good. His tippered utilt will kill there at very, very low percentages as well. In my eyes the stage places more emphasis on squirtle and ivysaur and leaves charizard a little unfomfortable, since the stage is all about movement and forcing traps through feints for platforms and such. If you camp the bottom platform with zard its pretty much impossible for them to land without us punishing the landing lag with a grab.

I've been assured that norfair is a **** stage for marth, but either way I'm a little unsure about how we stand against marth there. One of my problems with it is that it elminates charizards biggest advantage against marth: the ability to punish all of his ledge get up options.

 

[Vermy]

I'm just throwin this out there, if you like it, keep it. If you don't, send it right on back.

I wanna be on Pokestadium 2 or Norfair.
PS2:
Perfect height platforms to break the grab release and an altering stage, making Marths spacing game really difficult on the ice, wind and treadmill parts. And on the ice, MASSIVE sliding usmash for ivysaur, even if you don't hit with it, its a great pressure move. Its a stage that remains relatively unused in cps, so they won't see it coming.

Norfair is risky vs Marth in general, but it makes squirtle viable. A fair trade imo, and for most of us who can bring the **** with the tiny turtle, that's a big help (aerial camping ftw). Also all the funky shiz that ivy can do with vinewhip is pretty sweet. And a free pokechange? Hells yeah.

 

[Shaya]

Norfair doesn't make Squirtle viable.

I play tcranter a lot. Battlefield can be really painful. Squirtle's use of platforms can crush Marth. As the platforms against Squirtle in particular enhance his weakness of below him vehemently.

Norfair is still grab release pain (upsmash), ds invalidates the ledges for Squirtle and Ivysaur in most situations. Marth can edgehog Charizard more effectively.

Smashville is probably the best stage for Marth against PT. Final D incurs many risks when Marth has to get up from the ledge.

PT is silly on Brinstar, ef'n RAGE.

 

[Toby.]

Final D incurs many CHAIN GRABS.

ON SQUIRTLE.

BY MARTH.

but meh squirtle would die to a grab on any other stage anyway. and i always seem to win against you when we play on FD lols.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

How about Yoshi's Island?