Could items be allowed in Brawl Tournys?

[Aberu]

Your cousin isn't a viable barometer for a competitive opponent in a tournament. Just a mere anecdote.

So your opinion based on playing the game for about 3 weeks at most is a viable barometer? I don't understand how that is any more legitimate than him playing his cousin. OMGZ I played melee pros who all played in tourneys in melee with items off, and we tried items on, and after a couple weeks tehy are teh overpoweredz.

 

[PXG]

So your opinion based on playing the game for about 3 weeks at most is a viable barometer? I don't understand how that is any more legitimate than him playing his cousin. OMGZ I played melee pros who all played in tourneys in melee with items off, and we tried items on, and after a couple weeks tehy are teh overpoweredz.

There are nuances and new mechanics in Brawl, that differ from those that were in Melee. However, as said by those who DO have Brawl or have played it extensively, its not going to take another two years to discover that items are random, unbalanced and unfair. We don't need to reinvent the wheel here. Its simply unnecessary.

The statement you made about your cousin was moot. Its one thing if he is just another scrub, but its a totally different story if he, is, say number 2 in the power rankings of your state. Anecdotes prove absolutely nothing. Avoid using them.

 

[Blitzmidfielder]

I've been thinking that Smash Balls could be experimented as the only items turned on for tournament play.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

PXG clearly never tried shield grabbing item smash attacks in training mode. The attack can notably deplete your shield. Also, shielding most item smashes pushes you and/or your opponent away from each other out of almost all of the characters' grab ranges. This also applies to Brawl, too. I thought this was common knowledge. I guess I was wrong.

 

[SmashBro99]

Guys, I play competitively but I also like to play with items from time to time for fun, but lets be serious, items have no place in real tournies, where money is on the line or we are simply testing our skill against one another.

It's been said before, if you want items in a tourny that badly, make your own.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Guys, I play competitively but I also like to play with items from time to time for fun, but lets be serious, items have no place in real tournies, where money is on the line or we are simply testing our skill against one another.

It's been said before, if you want items in a tourny that badly, make your own.

Can I ask a question? A real question; not an attempt at facetiousness?

Do people not see their own contradictions? How can someone claim that items don't belong in a tournament, then immediately say that someone should make an item tournament of their own? Furthermore, people always complain about the 'loltourney***s' mentality of some casual players and how some people think that their style of play is better than another... and then come along and say something like "items have no place in real tournies", as if the tournaments they play are somehow any more legitimate than any other style of tournament that may or may not exist!

As far as I'm concerned, I don't see how anyone has the right to make such a ridiculous claim... yet it is a claim made all the time by so-called respectable tournament players. Furthermore, as is evident by another thread on this very forum, there are people who are interested in the concept of item tournaments. Especially armed with that very knowledge, how can anyone really make such an arrogant claim as "items have no place in real tournies"?

 

[The_Trap]

yah we shuld not only ban itams but we should ban luigi because his over-b has a random int attached to it as well as peach because her turnips spawn randomly

qtf ftw.

 

[PXG]

PXG clearly never tried shield grabbing item smash attacks in training mode. The attack can notably deplete your shield. Also, shielding most item smashes pushes you and/or your opponent away from each other out of almost all of the characters' grab ranges. This also applies to Brawl, too. I thought this was common knowledge. I guess I was wrong.

Okay....your point? What does that have to do with putting items in tournaments?This "revelation" doesn't balance out the RANDOMNESS. No matter what you guys manage to pull out of your *****, we are not going to budge. Once you can tell me how to not make items random or have such a strong effect on the outcome of a match, get back to me. Good luck with that....

Why won't you understand, we are not going to put items in tournaments!?! We're not going to. EVER! We say, "if we find a workaround...blah blah blah". Guess what? There won't be! Unless I hack the game, and somehow can control how items spawn and what their effects are, you won't be seeing them in competitive play.

What, do I need to write it a thousand times in 200 size font?!? Why can't you just accept the ****ing rules and leave us the hell alone. We don't tell you how to play the game. You have every right to use items. We don't use them, for reasons that have been explained far too many times for you. DEAL WITH IT!

Myself and the others have tried being civil, but our points keep on getting ignored. Instead, we get bombarded with a plethora of inane, baseless bull****. We have proof and reason as to why we ban items. Yet, for some reason, that measn absolutely nothing to you. You just keep on coming back with same stupid ****:

- It would be more fun
- Items take skill
- Smash was intended to be played items
- Why don't you try something new?
- I would play in a tournament, but...

Whether something is fun or not is a personal opinion and is subjective.

Items take no skill. Getting a legendary Pokemon and KO'ing your opponent....yeah, lots of hard work there....Random bomb-omb killing you as you're recovering.....okay....

Who the **** said there was an specific way of playing the game? I thought I was allowed to play the game any way I wanted to. I guess not.

We did allow items at first, but realized how unfair they were. A tournament is about proving who is the best and about WINNING. Its not about messing around and goofing off just for ****s and giggles.

If you want to play in a competitive tournament, learn how not to rely on items. Then, get better at the game.....

Seriously, this diatribe needs to end now.

 

[SiegKnight]

Items take skill. You can downdodge pretty much any final smash, warpstars, you can dodge roll when the sticky explosive explods if you time it well, you can downdodge thrown items, you don't have to be hit by legendaries, they just occupy space and make you have to fight outside of that space. When you have that sticky explosive on an enemy, you can also breath down their neck to make them unable to dodge roll in time even when they have the exact second noted in their head, so avoiding it takes a ton of skill and so does getting it to go bang on them right.

You play the game how you want, I'll play the game how I want. I don't care; I've ***** everyone good I've fought at 1 v 1 on wifi brawl without lag, many from here who claim to play in tourneys. Its easy, with or without items for me. Make tourneys how you want.

But don't, ever say they don't take no skill. Ever. They make you think much faster when both players are using them serious.

Do you know that if you time it well, reclinging to ledges alot at the right moments can use the invincibility frames to stop hammers? Do you know with Marth, Lucario, etc, you can use counter/inner focus to stop them, and other characters also have some nice fixes I could list if you're interested? You can even fly over Lucario's FS for gods sake.

At the level I play with items - I explore them alot, I also try to learn frame data even without a sheet for them - hammers are useless.

In fact curry is the only thing I find a little hard... And not much. And yes, they're tenacious players. Yes, they are using all their options.

I'm one of the best in UK at SF3 3rd Strike - Yuna and others here who are mods and smash snobs have refferenced it so I'll bring it up - and I'm arguably one of the best in the world at Virtua Fighter, an even harder game to learn.

I know how to play competetively, use prediction/yomi (mindgames is a ****ing stupid name for it) and I prefer items.

Do I care if you have them on or off in your tourneys that I myself want to attend anyway? No.

But they take a ****load of skill when you factor in all the mindgames and setups. No evasive strategy from, say, Giga Bowser is omnipotent, but with the stufF I figured out, no offense is guarantied from him either.

Most of you ****ing suck at the game of Smash Bros Brawl. Sorry, I have to say it. Some of you have even said stuff when the game came out like, 'Air dodging has no use,' 'Omg Luc can shffl', and some of you made silly names for utterly useless techniques. Do you know how easy it is for an actually good player at fighting games to figure out how many uses Lucario's d'air has from like 20 seconds of play? Second I saw the move, I needed no info. Not saying all of you do, I know Yuna is ok from what I know and M2K is of course awesome; I believe he posts here.

But most of you probably suck ****, so I don't want you judging items.

I'll gladly money match you in an items match with containers, maxims, curry, starmen off where you have to only bet half as much as me,, and do that money match 5 times. And because you believe items are skilless and don't know all the ins and outs, I'll be alot richer for it. I'm not just saying it. Anyone here in UK? I'll bloody take you up on it in half a year or so when my financial position is more stable. If you believe items are just luck and only a noob can advocate them having skill, you'll gain much more than you'll lose apparentally, right?

I don't give a **** about the discussion and all the horrible arguments from anyone who IS Pro-Item, but don't say they take no skill.

I'd eat you for breakfast in an items match sitdown 50-0.

I can understand not wanting to go into a tournament with items; regardless of the raw skill in pushing them to limits, I know you likely don't like the random respawn points. But guess what? Thats the only legitimate anti item argument I've heard ever, ever, ever, ever.

Whats funny is that you expect items to be fair on account of not requiring any creativity, reactionary ability or baiting to get around. Stop arguing that any of them except curry (I'm working on it anyway.), starmen and the two big healers have any problems at all. I bet none of you even think of items serious enough to know how far they can push you above people technically. Keeping an FS aura up - as in not using your FS - while you kill a wounded enemy then kill them next round; you're probably thinking when you read that 'Man I hate this guy and, oh, yeah duh, thats just cheap, evil; the fs appeared in a random place so it shouldn't give you an aura to start with.' True, point taken; but did you think of that option? Did you even have the creativity in you to have done it in a real situation? Maybe even KO'ing someone with physical moves who's on 10% when you're on 80%, and have a Smash Ball in you is cool because you can make it an uber come back if they're way in the lead? You can kill them on their next stock if you miracolously kill them without having the ball knocked out of you. But even that isn't guarantied.

Items test different kinds of skill depending on which one is picked up, and they can be pushed, counters can be figured, etc.

Stop arguing that items have problems once attained. Just say you don't like them as they respawn at random points and leave it at that. That I can respect.

 

[Jack Kieser]

****, Seigknight... I can't wait to play you when I get Brawl. <3

 

[SiegKnight]

Eh, its fine. Melee 1 v 1 was great and benefits from no items, but they'll all have to play this way eventually in Brawl to have any fun at all. As it is, its raw spacing on its own, utterly ****ing useless and has no limits to push whatsoever. They can live in their dreamworld, but Sakurai was a **** and removed all the cool stuff Melee had that made it so good competetive. If they want to believe itemless Smash isn't useless in Brawl because of what they had in Melee, let them. If they think Brawl as it is is fun at all competetively compared to Melee they have obviously never played any 1 v 1 fighter built for it at a very high level, eg Guilty Gear, Tekken, anything.

But its their game to play. Its the skill aspect they insult about items, which pisses me off. In a game like Brawl where the 1 v 1 game has been whittled down to almost zero, its almost skilless to play without them. The only reason its still tough 1 v 1 no items vs a good player - and would be for me if I wasn't usually better anyway - is that the enemy is a person just as tenacious as you, but you're just as limited as they are. It can be competetive without them of course. But fun? Hahahahahaha. You have like, 20 moves, floaty physics without comboing now, all the good tricks and pieces removed, and plenty of movesets built for use with items. Its just hilarious how they not only have faith in it as a 1 v 1 no item game, but then insult the skill that is brung in by all the factors items bring into play.

Laughable. If any of you play any game other than Smash, I will moneymatch you into poverty gladly.

 

[Ryven]

@ SiegKnight: Are there some items that you feel are too powerful, or should they all be on? Heart Containers, Starmen, etc. seem a bit much. I can seriously see most of the non-healing items that don't explode when hit, and also Food, because it heals for so little. What frequency do you suggest? In Melee, I often find that with all items on, the battlefield becomes too crowded for my taste. I don't remember if that was the case with Brawl (played it two weeks ago). I think some of the Assist Trphies were over the top, especially Nintendogs and Resetti, and the Pokeballs could stand to be toned down a bit. I didn't see lightning bolts - I assume they're bad.

I know I'm a big fan of small obstacles, like bumpers and the new springs, and that if items were going to be on I'd definitely want them to be considered. They're fairly low-impact items, which I like.

I think Smash 64's item game was almost spot-on. The field was never cluttered, and the items weren't too good (except for Starman, and maybe Heart Containers, which didn't used to feel so out of place).

Is the 1v1 game in Brawl that bad? I didn't have long enough with it, and managed to waste something like nine hours I did have going through SSE.

 

[SiegKnight]

Heart Containers, Starmen and Maxims as I said in my post I keep the **** away from, they're made of aids. I don't actually mind them, but I think they're so unneutral theres no reason to *have* them. Curry I could take or leave, best to put off though.

Food is fine for me, it rewards braving out a long game, and you can smack someone for trying so hard to get to it if they need it, or if both players are eating, decide if its good to cut your losses and smack them. Team Healer's awesome. Frequency. Uh, well, default or low, make your own prefference. On normal you're forced to often keep making strategies around items as well as the basic spacing, predictive game you'll have to deal with in a 1 v 1 no items fight. But having them low makes you feel like you're not being distracted so frequently in a fight.

I honestly like to keep it as close to the defaults as possible in an items game though, so only starmen and them big healers get the shaft.

Nintendogs is hilarious, but not practical. You know though, I had one of these very intense matches with Resetti blabbering on the screen, paying attention to the opacity of his text window to get a vague idea of what to act on. It wasn't half bad. I certainly know it can detract from the game, but I'm keeping assists on for the hell of it.

Its probably the one aspect that isn't skillful at all about items x.x; other than the bolt and anything else thats touch = advantage. Pokeballs are fine.

In Third Strike Urien has an aegis reflector which is the best super in the game because it controls space, its damage is low unless you touch it or its put on a cornered person as they get up off the floor. Pokeballs act like that, cept you don't plan out for them; why they're off in tourneys I assume. But the setups you can make with them are awesome. You have more psychological control over someone when a bellosom is controlling a small area, they can't step on it. You have thus narrowed their options down, even if a little.

Fact is I feel the ammount of damage you can rack up with a good knowledge of items and how to evade them, how to use them and how to guess right with them... Its astronomical as opposed to 1 v 1 no items. I feel I can go so much higher above noobs in this aspect. And I do. I can kill people when they vs me 3 v 1, and I can overlap their remaining stock several times in long, long matches. Not all of these players are often too casual too, though none in that particular situation have been very competetive people. I make people do it to me for fun though, often good gamers at other things.

Assists haven't detracted from my ability to do this o.o I think if there had to be a forth item other than them three banned though, its either assists or curry.

And 1 v 1 brawl is... Uh, ok, its just nothing compared to Melee in base system. Characters themselves though are more diverse, and some competetives see alot in the momentum system for some godforsaken reason. Olimar and Snake require alot of foreplanning and mental play, something perhaps not possible in Melee as all the otherwise awesome system tricks made individual traits like that played down in favor of speed, combos and other things. Crouch cancelling is gone, L cancel gone, wavedash gone, double stick DI is gone, ledge guarding is horribly nerfed and can be considered gone outside of ledge hugging since the line between knocking someone off and doing it to keep them off on gets a little grey and blurry with Brawls floatyness.

Combos don't exist in it in a very elaborated form peroid. Ever. At all.

 

[PXG]

Items take skill. You can downdodge pretty much any final smash, warpstars, you can dodge roll when the sticky explosive explods if you time it well, you can downdodge thrown items, you don't have to be hit by legendaries, they just occupy space and make you have to fight outside of that space. When you have that sticky explosive on an enemy, you can also breath down their neck to make them unable to dodge roll in time even when they have the exact second noted in their head, so avoiding it takes a ton of skill and so does getting it to go bang on them right.

No. No. NO! They don't. You claim it takes skill to avoid them, but how much skill does it take to use them. None. All you are doing is just camping, hurling **** at your opponent. I agree, its hard to dodge all of that crap, but anyone can chuck items at your an entire match.

You play the game how you want, I'll play the game how I want. I don't care;

I agree. Thank you for acknowledging that. So why are you still trying to convince us?...

I've ***** everyone good I've fought at 1 v 1 on wifi brawl without lag, many from here who claim to play in tourneys. Its easy, with or without items for me. Make tourneys how you want.

Well, I don' t think its going to be hard to beat people in a game that's only been out for a few weeks. Hell, some people probably JUST got it. Not everything is going to carry over from Melee. You shouldn't be patting yourself on the back too much so soon.

But don't, ever say they don't take no skill. Ever. They make you think much faster when both players are using them serious.

But the whole point of competitive play is to fight your opponent, as in, YOU, fighting the OTHER GUY. Its not about seeing who gets lucky and who can throw the most ****. If you honestly say items take skill, I am highly dubious that your really that good at the game. You shouldn't care what I personally think of you, but I think the other competitive players will agree with me on this. The game JUST came out. you shouldn't be on such a high horse yet...sheesh.

Do you know that if you time it well, reclinging to ledges alot at the right moments can use the invincibility frames to stop hammers? Do you know with Marth, Lucario, etc, you can use counter/inner focus to stop them, and other characters also have some nice fixes I could list if you're interested? You can even fly over Lucario's FS for gods sake.

There are some (very few) workarounds, but not enough to make items fair or justify using them competitive tournaments. Items will probably always be banned because they are random and put a high priorty on luck rather than skill. Items are random while, say, character hit priority, isn't. Anything preset, and universally known and accepted is fair game. I am fully aware that there are moves that are random (Peach's veggies, Luigi's misfire, G&W's hammer, ect.), however, they have been accepted by tournament organizers and attendees.

At the level I play with items - I explore them alot, I also try to learn frame data even without a sheet for them - hammers are useless.

In fact curry is the only thing I find a little hard... And not much. And yes, they're tenacious players. Yes, they are using all their options.

Okay.

I'm one of the best in UK at SF3 3rd Strike - Yuna and others here who are mods and smash snobs have refferenced it so I'll bring it up - and I'm arguably one of the best in the world at Virtua Fighter, an even harder game to learn.

I know how to play competetively, use prediction/yomi (mindgames is a ****ing stupid name for it) and I prefer items.

Oh God....I hope you're not going to do it....

Do I care if you have them on or off in your tourneys that I myself want to attend anyway? No.

But they take a ****load of skill when you factor in all the mindgames and setups. No evasive strategy from, say, Giga Bowser is omnipotent, but with the stufF I figured out, no offense is guarantied from him either.

Phew! I thought you were going to compare Final Smashes to Supers....Thank you Jesus.

Again, you go on saying that it takes skill to evade them. Yeah it does, but you have to admit, its pretty easy to just sit there and throw crap at someone. You don't need to put yourself in any danger or risk getting hit.

Most of you ****ing suck at the game of Smash Bros Brawl. Sorry, I have to say it. Some of you have even said stuff when the game came out like, 'Air dodging has no use,' 'Omg Luc can shffl', and some of you made silly names for utterly useless techniques. Do you know how easy it is for an actually good player at fighting games to figure out how many uses Lucario's d'air has from like 20 seconds of play? Second I saw the move, I needed no info. Not saying all of you do, I know Yuna is ok from what I know and M2K is of course awesome; I believe he posts here.

The game just came out. No one is really good at it yet. Why are you acting like your *** weighs a ton?

Anyway, yeah, some of the "new" techs that people are coining names for, are pretty useless and stupid. As you said, you don't need to analyze the game for hours to know that Lucario's dair is ridic. On that note, we don't need to reinvent the wheel, by seeing if random items are unfair and unbalanced. Its not going to take another X years to figure that out. Some things will carry over, while other new things will have to be learned.

But most of you probably suck ****, so I don't want you judging items.

Well guess what buddy. We don't need to judge, Y'know why? Because they're banned. And even if I wanted to judge them, who the **** do you think you are to tell me I can't? If you want to play with items and think you're the ****, go ahead. Live in your delusional state of mind. Go ahead and throw items all about and call it skill. Go ahead and argue the same inane bull**** over and over. It doesn't mean a **** thing to us and won't make us put items in tournaments.

I'll gladly money match you in an items match with containers, maxims, curry, starmen off where you have to only bet half as much as me,, and do that money match 5 times. And because you believe items are skilless and don't know all the ins and outs, I'll be alot richer for it.

If you want to call luck, skill, okay...whatever floats your boat.

I'm not just saying it. Anyone here in UK? I'll bloody take you up on it in half a year or so when my financial position is more stable. If you believe items are just luck and only a noob can advocate them having skill, you'll gain much more than you'll lose apparentally, right?

I don't give a **** about the discussion and all the horrible arguments from anyone who IS Pro-Item, but don't say they take no skill.

I'd eat you for breakfast in an items match sitdown 50-0.

Wow.....just wow....

I can understand not wanting to go into a tournament with items; regardless of the raw skill in pushing them to limits, I know you likely don't like the random respawn points. But guess what? Thats the only legitimate anti item argument I've heard ever, ever, ever, ever.

And that's all we need. Random = luck = less neccessary for a CHANCE to win. If you can somehow not have items be random, than most of the problem would be solved. But in order to do that, you would have to literally, hack and reverse engineer the **** game....yeah....

Whats funny is that you expect items to be fair on account of not requiring any creativity, reactionary ability or baiting to get around. Stop arguing that any of them except curry (I'm working on it anyway.), starmen and the two big healers have any problems at all. I bet none of you even think of items serious enough to know how far they can push you above people technically. Keeping an FS aura up - as in not using your FS - while you kill a wounded enemy then kill them next round; you're probably thinking when you read that 'Man I hate this guy and, oh, yeah duh, thats just cheap, evil; the fs appeared in a random place so it shouldn't give you an aura to start with.' True, point taken; but did you think of that option? Did you even have the creativity in you to have done it in a real situation? Maybe even KO'ing someone with physical moves who's on 10% when you're on 80%, and have a Smash Ball in you is cool because you can make it an uber come back if they're way in the lead? You can kill them on their next stock if you miracolously kill them without having the ball knocked out of you. But even that isn't guarantied.

In all of those scenarios you mentioned, luck is still the primary factor. Luck or the exploitation of a gamebreaking element does not take skill. Seriously man. It doesn't.

Items test different kinds of skill depending on which one is picked up, and they can be pushed, counters can be figured, etc.

Items undemine the actual fighting. Items make the game campy emphasize luck more than skill. Come on....

Stop arguing that items have problems once attained. Just say you don't like them as they respawn at random points and leave it at that. That I can respect.

Its hard to dodge items, but easy as hell to exploit them. Its takes skill to avoid them, yet NONE to use them. That's all I've been saying this entire time. I cannot be more clear than that.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Haha... as a Link player, I find it funny every time someone says it takes no skill to chuck items at people. I can personally attest to the fact that there is indeed skill involved, as a player of one of the characters balanced around his/her projectile game.

I think people forget those projectile characters 'cause they aren't top tier, esp. Link. Poor Hylian...

 

[SiegKnight]

Its hard as hell to exploit them against someone who's dodging them right. I'm ignoring your post as it totally ignores the point of what I said. You're silly, I even said that I don't mind if you ban the bloody things, I'm just saying that they take skill to abuse properly vs someone who can dodge right, which is possible, and it takes skill to dodge them too. How long have you played with items competetively? Curious. Have you been using your imagination? 'Thats all we need' hahaha, fool. I KNOW!? I said its fine to ban them in tourneys, you ninny. I'm saying they take skill though once you pick em up. Plenty. I know this from very extensive experience.

I'm trying to convince you as 'picking em up and throwing them at the enemy mindlessly' is a very ignorant thing to say, and uh, it sounds... Ignorant as hell.

Use a hammer against me? You're ****ed, I know a counter. I use a hammer on you? You believe items take no skill so you probably have no counter, I'll **** you. Repeat this for most other items and the odds are stacked against you. You won't want to pick up items vs me after a few games. Trust me.

'wow... just wow...' Arrogant ***. x.x I meant it honestly.

'Its hard...' FOR YOU ****IT? If its hard for you I want to use them against you as you'll get ****ed and I can laugh at you as I'll win and you won't. Duh.

also, I edited this post several times to seem less brutal o.o I do respect your views in a way as yes, I do believe that supers are far more tournament fair than a fs and they aren't comparible. And I do respect you for acknowledging fs' take skill to evade. They also take skill to use though, once the player is very good at evading. Uhuh.

 

[PXG]

Its hard as hell to exploit them against someone who's dodging them right. I'm ignoring your post as it totally ignores the point of what I said. You're silly, I even said that I don't mind if you ban the bloody things, I'm just saying that they take skill to abuse properly vs someone who can dodge right, which is possible, and it takes skill to dodge them too. How long have you played with items competetively? Curious. Have you been using your imagination? 'Thats all we need' hahaha, ****ing moron. I KNOW!? I said its fine to ban them in tourneys, you ninny. I'm saying they take skill though. Plenty. I know this from very extensive experience.

Use a hammer against me? You're ****ed, I know a counter. I use a hammer on you? You believe items take no skill so you probably have no counter, I'll **** you. Repeat this for most other items and the odds are stacked against you. You won't want to pick up items vs me after a few games. Trust me.

'wow... just wow...' Arrogant ***. x.x I meant it honestly.

'Its hard...' FOR YOU ****IT? If its hard for you I want to use them against you as you'll get ****ed and I can laugh at you as I'll win and you won't. Duh.

Good for you. You can exploit something that is totally broken and spawns at uncontrollable, random moments. Go ahead and talk ****. Talk as much as you want. But that is all you are. TALK. You SAY they take skill, yet pretty much EVERY competitive Smasher has experience and reason, that will prove your *** wrong.

Our rules are based on the fact that items undermine skill, and make luck the deciding factor in a match. I DARE you to prove us wrong. Make videos, host tournaments, do whatever to make us look like the rigid, single minded elitist morons, that you claim us to be. Do everything in your power to shed light on the "truth" you claim to know. Seriously, do it.

I am done with this diatribe. I'm too smart to argue with people are so ****ing delusional and want to keep on arguing in circles.If you want to believe you are the **** and items require skill on both ends, fine. If you want to play with them, fine. Just leave us the hell alone and stop questioning our rules. We deserve that much courtesy.

 

[KosukeKGA]

I like this topic.

Also, SiegKnight, that was quite rude. Don't come off as an ******* to people. I didn't want to read all of this mindless dribble on items.

They'll be banned anyway.

 

[SiegKnight]

Good for you. You can exploit something that is totally broken and spawns at uncontrollable, random moments. Go ahead and talk ****. Talk as much as you want. But that is all you are. TALK. You SAY they take skill, yet pretty much EVERY competitive Smasher has experience and reason, that will prove your *** wrong.

Our rules are based on the fact that items undermine skill, and make luck the deciding factor in a match. I DARE you to prove us wrong. Make videos, host tournaments, do whatever to make us look like the rigid, single minded elitist morons, that you claim us to be. Do everything in your power to shed light on the "truth" you claim to know. Seriously, do it.

I am done with this diatribe. I'm too smart to argue with people are so ****ing delusional and want to keep on arguing in circles.If you want to believe you are the **** and items require skill on both ends, fine. If you want to play with them, fine. Just leave us the hell alone and stop questioning our rules. We deserve that much courtesy.

I'll fight you 1 v 1 no items with a low tier character and likely wipe my *** with your face for a moneymatch, first to 5, starfox/animal crossing/fd, 4 stock. I have skills. If you're in england.

I'm not questioning your rules, I'm saying not to say it doesn't take its own kind of skill. And it isn't broken! God, if theres a way around it that renders it useless, it isn't broken.

And yes! I will. I would indeed love to make a scene like that and have made certain plans, showed these tricks to people and they have converted. I'm not trying to show light though, just a different way of playing. Stop acting so hostile as well btw, it pisses me off.

I issue that money match as I want to do something directly subtractive to your status, 100 or if I can afford it even 500 should leave you a little dry. Wanna know why? Because you're acting nasty, arrogant, unfair, when I'm only saying that items take skill in their own way, not even asking you to change your rules.

I have an opinion, I have a right to have that opinion, and you're angry about it. Thats unfair.

MM next you're in england when I have the cash, if ever.

Deal?

You're the very symbol of why competetive players are looked down to by scrubs and stuff rather than looked up to for our decent skills and psychological play like we deserve to be; in street fighter, the top players get respected by all the idiots. Daigo's famous full parry vid envokes awe from everyone as the top players are friendly and accepting of different views and in 3S's case, inferior super art uses, etc. We on the other hand have an ED article and a lot of flak. Its not for your views on items, or else we're already dead - I prefer no items for a tournament actually - but just your **** elitist and exclusionist attitude.

 

[SiegKnight]

Pmed Kosuke with his very obvious answer that was in my post anyway.

 

[SFJake]

I agree. Thank you for acknowledging that. So why are you still trying to convince us?...

And who do you claim "us" is? We aren't included because we think differently? Oh seriously, you think we are automatically out of tourneys because we think the rules aren't how we'd want them best? We are as much a part of it as any others. Thinking differently does not make us part of something else, and as such, "us" includes everyone here that actually bothers to discuss in intelligent and non-offensive manners, something you do not give a very good example at in some part of your posts.

---
EDIT : Not saying you are the only one doing so.. a lot of people should calm down a bit.
---

Argue all you want against the thing and your reasons thats fine, thats what we are doing too, but are not trying to convince YOU... we are trying to change what affects EVERYONE wanting to play competitively or in tourneys.

 

[SiegKnight]

And who do you claim "us" is? We aren't included because we think differently? Oh seriously, you think we are automatically out of tourneys because we think the rules aren't how we'd want them best? We are as much a part of it as any others. Thinking differently does not make us part of something else, and as such, "us" includes everyone here that actually bothers to discuss in intelligent and non-offensive manners, something you do not give a very good example at in some part of your posts.

Yeah, I agree, I'm pretty sure he's one of the reasons why I have to be called a tourney*** daily by my scrubby friends whereas I was looked up to as a pretty skilled god of Smash under any settings in my friend circle before the ED page came up, just because I can drillshine and desync, etc.. I love it. Cheers elitists.

 

[PXG]

I'll fight you 1 v 1 no items with a low tier character and likely wipe my *** with your face for a moneymatch, first to 5, starfox/animal crossing/fd, 4 stock. I have skills. If you're in england.

Such vulgarities are unnecessary. If I am ever in England, I would like to challenge you. Now a money match? We have to go with no items. I might as well put my coins in a slot machine if we were to play with items.

I'm not questioning your rules, I'm saying not to say it doesn't take its own kind of skill. And it isn't broken! God, if theres a way around it that renders it useless, it isn't broken.

Fair enough. Can't argue against that.

And yes! I will. I would indeed love to make a scene like that and have made certain plans, showed these tricks to people and they have converted. I'm not trying to show light though, just a different way of playing. Stop acting so hostile as well btw, it pisses me off.

I wasn't being sarcastic. I like the idea of tournaments allowing items, so that more people can get into the fun. Other competitive players claim that tournies aren't for fun. That isn't true. As competitive and serious as it gets some times, at the end of a day, its STILL just a video game. And don't we play games for fun?

I wouldn't play in such a tournament, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't want others enjoying such an event. I want as many people playing this game as possible. Its a lot of fun. Its just we have our style that is fun for us. Thats all.

I issue that money match as I want to do something directly subtractive to your status, 100 or if I can afford it even 500 should leave you a little dry. Wanna know why? Because you're acting nasty, arrogant, unfair, when I'm only saying that items take skill in their own way, not even asking you to change your rules.

I have an opinion, I have a right to have that opinion, and you're angry about it. Thats unfair.

MM next you're in england when I have the cash, if ever.

Deal?

That's perfectly fine. I see nothing wrong with that.

You're the very symbol of why competetive players are looked down to by scrubs and stuff rather than looked up to for our decent skills and psychological play like we deserve to be; in street fighter, the top players get respected by all the idiots. Daigo's famous full parry vid envokes awe from everyone as the top players are friendly and accepting of different views and in 3S's case, inferior super art uses, etc. We on the other hand have an ED article and a lot of flak. Its not for your views on items, or else we're already dead - I prefer no items for a tournament actually - but just your **** elitist and exclusionist attitude.

I am no "tourney***". I like playing with items in friendlies. There are times where I am LITERALLY rolling on the floor laughing, because something hilarious happened with an item. But, in competitive play or in a tournment, they go off. I seem hostile now, because I've read far too many pro-item Smashers bring up the same old, inane, baseless points. Unfortunately for you, you just got the brunt of my frusturation.

I cannot say much about other fighting games, simply because, I know nothing much about them. I play them, but not competitively. When it comes to games in general, I'll play anything, on any platform, as longs its a good, and not sports.

I am not against people wanting to play Smash. Again, I love the idea of people interested in it. However, I just don't like it when people question our rules with nothing to support their case. If you never intended to question the rules or convince us to change them, then I apologize for getting on your case.

You're not the bad guy here and neither am I. Its people who tell others how to play the game or question things about it, with mindless assumptions and suggestions. I hope you realize that I am not biased and try to see both sides of things.

 

[Bailey]

I love how every WALL o TEXT is made by some random scrub.

The thing that is wrong with their argument is that no matter how much they complain or type a lot, Items still won't be on in tournaments that is why these threads are funny to me because they are arguing something that they can't change.

 

[SFJake]

I love how every WALL o TEXT is made by some random scrub.

The thing that is wrong with their argument is that no matter how much they complain or type a lot, Items still won't be on in tournaments that is why these threads are funny to me because they are arguing something that they can't change.

Great if you surrender to something just because you are told it won't do anything. I don't, and it doesn't take hours of your life a day to defend a simple opinion, even if forever.

And I see NOTHING wrong with us defending our points. People just yelling "it won't change, shut up" pretty much have the most closed minded place of all time.

Why not state everything is impossible to change, and forbid any sort of arguing. This is a forum, after all. Find a better reason for us to shut up.

 

[Bailey]

It really isn't having a closed mind it is that for the other games Item arguments happened and Items lost twice.

 

[SiegKnight]

I'm not questioning your rules, if I made an items scene it'd be something uninterfering with your scene PXG, which is one I do indeed plan to even be a part of. 1 v 1 no items has a very different style even in the knowledge set I figured out. I do believe 1 v 1 brawl no items is shallow as hell unless you're Snake or Olimar, but can it be fun? Sure. Will it get better though? Well, time will tell. Its good enough as it is, but it may stand to be less shallow in a few years, I'd welcome that. MM was meant with no items.

Different styles. I don't see why they have to argue. Items base around knowledge and the ability to trick someone, but non items is pure hand to hand, so it can't favor either side. Less options or no, plenty'd consider that better, and many characters have projectiles or decoy moves - eg Snake, Lucas - so you still get similar options. I can respect that. But items DO take tons of skill in their own twisted messed up - and tactical - way. Thats all I like to speak of.

Also, sorry for seeming vulgar. Bad week was bad, I have a thing of going into a rageful frenzy at everything I do - whether typing or anything else possible - when the weeks been utter horse****. Forgive me. And I appreciate your last paragraph alot.

I love how every WALL o TEXT is made by some random scrub.

I love how this 'scrub' here - ala me - would 4 stock you with items and likely only lose one or two vs you without. SFJake may or may not be a very good player - arguably probably not, he's not showing signs of it and I haven't heard his name in tournies - but he's sure as hell making more valid points than you. If every noob discussed and played out their views as calmly as him the internet would be much cleaner.

You're nothing in Brawl at least. If there is a good player, I don't mind claiming myself to be one, I've gotten my spacing skills in Brawl at least up to a phenominal level. (I play night and day, I have my hdtv next to my pc here.)

 

[Ti11erTheKi11er]

I really doubt that items will be useable in hosted tournaments by people will allow items because us competitive players. Not trying to shut down the idea i'm just saying i doubt it will happen but always is a possibility.

 

[Miharu]

I love how this 'scrub' here - ala me - would 4 stock you with items and likely only lose one or two vs you without. SFJake may or may not be a very good player - arguably probably not, he's not showing signs of it and I haven't heard his name in tournies - but he's sure as hell making more valid points than you. If every noob discussed and played out their views as calmly as him the internet would be much cleaner.

You're nothing in Brawl at least. If there is a good player, I don't mind claiming myself to be one, I've gotten my spacing skills in Brawl at least up to a phenominal level. (I play night and day, I have my hdtv next to my pc here.)

Good bull****. I guarantee that I would ****ing smash you at Melee, no questions asked. Right now, you're doing an great job of exemplifying hypocrisy.

You're probably only average at Brawl. No good, self-respectable player would label themselves as "phenomenal" when they've only had access to the game for at most 2 months.

Get the **** off your high horse. You're no better than the elitists that you claim to be the opposite of.

As to items, if they're viable, they might be included. But that'll have to go through various experimental stages, etc. If anyone remembers, the very first Melee tournaments began with items. We'll see how this pans out for Brawl.

 

[Mew2King]

Kage as in Kage the Ganon player? ya Kage would **** you then sorry =(

also, items are dumb for competitive play! randomness is bad

edit - nobody is phenominal!

 

[Miharu]

...

K, I think I need to make a topic on this.

I'M NOT KAGE THE CANADIAN GANON.

Read my location. That's who I am. K, going to make a topic about this Pacific West. Linking in my sig.

 

[Mew2King]

lollllllllllllllll

 

[SiegKnight]

Good bull****. I guarantee that I would ****ing smash you at Melee, no questions asked. Right now, you're doing an great job of exemplifying hypocrisy.

You're probably only average at Brawl. No good, self-respectable player would label themselves as "phenomenal" when they've only had access to the game for at most 2 months.

Get the **** off your high horse. You're no better than the elitists that you claim to be the opposite of.

As to items, if they're viable, they might be included. But that'll have to go through various experimental stages, etc. If anyone remembers, the very first Melee tournaments began with items. We'll see how this pans out for Brawl.

Not Melee, I suck at that. Brawl though, wanna match sometime if you're around SE england? I meant my spacing skills, not my general skills. Spacing is something that can carry between games too, and you have no idea how hard a game SF3 is to learn. That revolves almost entirely around spacing, and I'm one of the best at it. One of the best in the world, and its a game that the japanese pioneer mainly. I beaten alot of people who've beaten them at it.

My skills transferred very well to Brawl, a game with almost nothing but spacing. I barely even take damage vs people who claim to have been a big part of UKs melee scene, when theres no lag.

I'm not joking.

I'm pretty certain I'd at least push you on your feet in Brawl, anytime, anywhere. I can't say you wouldn't **** me as I never bloody heard of you. But I'd be a good match, I'm confident in that. When Brawl stops being more than a spacing game it'd perhaps be a little tougher on me.

But actions speak louder than words. I have no travel monehs right now, but if you're in UK or wanna at least see an inaccurate representation of me, then fight me IRL or dial my friend code in my post here. <---

I'm not on a high horse, I'm being realistic. You're on a high horse, and so was PXG, making me act that way in return to him to begin with. And I was only reffering to my spacing skills. No player who'd issue money matches of that proportion could suck unless they're ridicolously stupid, and I show coherent logic, type well, and make good counterpoints. Use your intuition to guess how I could play.

Items would be a great idea but most players who play competetively would be madly against them purely as its a different style of strategy and a different field of knowledge entirely, it'd do good starting out as a seperate bracket in tournaments.

I am curious though, off subject, and I do really want to know; how did Melee tournies run before items got banned? Did players win consistently, did you have to have knowledge on items, etc? I'm curious on how it worked.

 

[Miharu]

Ah, I'm glad you're not the typical trash-talking noob.

I'll apologize for what I said earlier.

There's a post somewhere about the history of competitive smash, but I'm honestly too tired to look for it right now. I'll find it sometime later this weekend since I'm going down to UCLA for a tourney tomorrow.

Cheers. I'd be glad to play you in Brawl. See you around.

 

[SiegKnight]

heh, its cool ^_^; e-arguments are just that, an argument, I dun take it serious. I hate all the noobs who talk trash; I mean, I wish the scrub community was respectful of the skills competetives have. I've had my fair share of laughs at the ED page when I was a SF goon and didn't like Melee, but shouldn't they be respecting skill rather than demeaning it?

I do really wanna know how item tournies worked when melee was new though, what was in them, etc.

 

[Bailey]

You said you would 4 stock me????

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Too funny man, too funny. But seriously, you suck

 

[SiegKnight]

In brawl - not a player for melee, yes, I would, even if purely because that attitude you have would piss me off enough to make the Smash Bros Brawl version of Daigo's infamous full parry on Justin Wong. I, top level at alot of games and vet for Brawl almost day and night, up to date on every technique discovered here, figuring out new uses for them all as I go, suck? You're psychic about someones spacing and mental ability at Smash now? You elitist queer, you vs me would be like a grandma in a solar powered wheelchair vs an f1 car in a bloody lunar eclipse.

For all I know you could be leagues and leagues ahead of me if theres something beyond the basic spacing game discovered in Brawl that I don't know about, but as far as I know I have a decent chance of at least pushing you on your feet. You don't sound very smart, probably not the one to guess patterns well or predict decently. I react fast enough to power shield entire thrown crowds of pikmin - like all 6 of them individually - individually with wifi lag, and I love the psychological aspect of fighting games.

I'm the sort that spends their entire day while at work or school dreaming up ways to trick and outsmart people in ways that they're forced to guess if they want to be rewarded with any significant payout. The constant two choice guess games and mind play that fighting games reward you with is the reason I play videogames.

I'd love to see you consistently keep above my skill level with this ammount of tenacious will to get good on your tail. And I mean I'm very tenacious. What other games do you play? I can FRC flawlessly on GG, 1 frame Akira knee on VF and I can kara cancel everything that can be in SF3. If I'm speaking your language in any of them cases, you know the level of play I try to chase after.

 

[Miharu]

In brawl - not a player for melee, yes, I would, even if purely because that attitude you have would piss me off enough to make the Smash Bros Brawl version of Daigo's infamous full parry on Justin Wong. I, top level at alot of games and vet for Brawl almost day and night, up to date on every technique discovered here, figuring out new uses for them all as I go, suck? You're psychic about someones spacing and mental ability at Smash now? You elitist queer, you vs me would be like a grandma in a solar powered wheelchair vs an f1 car in a bloody lunar eclipse.

For all I know you could be leagues and leagues ahead of me if theres something beyond the basic spacing game discovered in Brawl that I don't know about, but as far as I know I have a decent chance of at least pushing you on your feet. You don't sound very smart, probably not the one to guess patterns well or predict decently. I react fast enough to power shield entire thrown crowds of pikmin - like all 6 of them individually - individually with wifi lag, and I love the psychological aspect of fighting games.

I'm the sort that spends their entire day while at work or school dreaming up ways to trick and outsmart people in ways that they're forced to guess if they want to be rewarded with any significant payout. The constant two choice guess games and mind play that fighting games reward you with is the reason I play videogames.

I'd love to see you consistently keep above my skill level with this ammount of tenacious will to get good on your tail. And I mean I'm very tenacious. What other games do you play? I can FRC flawlessly on GG, 1 frame Akira knee on VF and I can kara cancel everything that can be in SF3. If I'm speaking your language in any of them cases, you know the level of play I try to chase after.

Just a suggestion.

Don't overestimate yourself. Because, frankly, you sound rather pompous.

Also, mastering 1 technique (or a select few) doesn't make you good at a particular game. You're starting to remind me of pubs in DotA that think they're good because they can last hit and deny.

People here can be total *******s on the forums, and yet at the same time be pretty decent at the game itself. The way one posts online has almost nothing to do with their skill level of any game, for that matter.

You're degrading the highest echelon of the gaming community if you're going to carelessly group yourself with them. I'd suggest avoiding talking trash like this until this game's been out for longer, because right now, you're making yourself look as stupid as you think he is.

 

[SiegKnight]

I know I'm not invincible, I just don't like his attitude and make sure I win the games that count, usually ones against fools like him who laugh off people just because they don't have a reputation.

So long as I'd give him a match that makes him think, I've at least proven I don't 'suck.'

My only chance of failing horribly vs him is that when you're part of a tournament scene regularly there are certain moves and strategies prioritized over others and they've grown instinctive against them, so thats... One chance I have of absolutely sucking vs him, but I'm confident with Brawls limited arsenol right now that spacing, reflexes and mindgames more than make up for it. Not to mention I'm a good judge of what works, what is abusable, etc, very much so myself, and I read strategies here plenty. I often already know something when its discovered if its a character I main.

I just find it ridicolous that if I say someone sucks, I'm evil and overestimating myself; he says someone sucks, its tuesday? Screw that.

 

[SiegKnight]

To your edited post. Yah, point taken. Too bad it totally applies to him as well as me, you should direct it to both of us since he's acting just as ******** as I. The entire subject cooled down before he came in all guns blazing.

Consider that please. x.o