Corrin has the best Counter ?

[ARGHETH]

It would've been justified if Ike were about a good 40-50% higher. And so you know, counters are damage dependent, not knockback dependent, so the strength of Ike's attack doesn't matter, which is why the Marth one is ridic. I'm pretty sure no other counter would've killed him that effectively from the middle of the stage. I don't even think it was at full charge.

Charged Ike Fsmash does 30% or so. Ike took ~38%, which translates to a little over 29%. It was close enough to fully charged.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Who cares? Who's throwing around fully charged F-smashes from Ike anyway? Casuals?

In 1vs1, you'll hardly be landing counters that much anyway. They're incredibly risky moves unless your opponent is just blind rushdown who rarely grabs. I'd go so far as to say that most counters actually kind of suck, and Corrin's is one of the only ones that doesn't. I almost never use my counter, not without a hard read. But even then, I still through plenty of matches without even using the move once.

 

[OceloT42]

It would've been justified if Ike were about a good 40-50% higher. And so you know, counters are damage dependent, not knockback dependent, so the strength of Ike's attack doesn't matter, which is why the Marth one is ridic. I'm pretty sure no other counter would've killed him that effectively from the middle of the stage. I don't even think it was at full charge.

a)It was near full charge, or else I've been playing some other game this whole time.
b) Most Counters are both damage and knockback dependant, having separate multipliers for each (am 98% sure about this).
c) The Marth kill wasn't ridiculous, if you factor rage, tipper effect, knockback, and trajectory.I would have been surprised if it hadn't killed him.
d)I don't really care whether it's OP or not,I don't depend on counters. But it's the swaggest counter in Smash, so stop complaining. No one else does it with so much style.

 

[atreyujames]

Most Counters are both damage and knockback dependant, having separate multipliers for each (am 98% sure about this).

Haha sorry but that 2% caught you this time. Counters take the incoming damage, apply the multiplier, and finally output Knockback based on their own BKB and KBG. For example, The strong hit of CS has a BKB of 90 and a KBG of 74, while Ikes is 48 and 100 respectively. Counters determine knockback completely independent of the original attacks KB. As a further example, countering Finishing Touch will likely not kill the opposing cloud until both of you are at ~95% due to it doing 1% damage which translates to the counter having its minimum damage (10% in this case) and thus it's min knockback

 

[OceloT42]

Haha sorry but that 2% caught you this time. Counters take the incoming damage, apply the multiplier, and finally output Knockback based on their own BKB and KBG. For example, The strong hit of CS has a BKB of 90 and a KBG of 74, while Ikes is 48 and 100 respectively. Counters determine knockback completely independent of the original attacks KB. As a further example, countering Finishing Touch will likely not kill the opposing cloud until both of you are at ~95% due to it doing 1% damage which translates to the counter having its minimum damage (10% in this case) and thus it's min knockback

Oops haha, my bad.I was told this was the case by a fellow Smasher, but I'm wrong then, sorry.

 

[abx]

Could you clarify what BKB and KBG means? KB is for knockback, okay, but I can't decipher the remaining letters.

 

[OceloT42]

Could you clarify what BKB and KBG means? KB is for knockback, okay, but I can't decipher the remaining letters.

BKB- Base KnockBack
KBG-KnockBack Growth
You're welcome. Enjoy dragoning!

 

[Speculator]

From a different point of view; this move is single handedly in the process of destroying my casual free-for-alls with friends. Even if you successfully read the counter, it's more than likely someone else's attack (or even a stray projectile) will connect with Corrin's extremely generous counter window, and the gigantic hitbox usually ends up netting him several free kills. It's now at the point where everyone just steers well clear of Corrin, in which case he wins anyway with his projectile as a result of taking no damage.

I get that 1v1v1v1v1v1 isn't exactly a raw test of skill, but this is how we like to play. Up until now no character has been so dominant in our matches. I can't really fault my friend for wanting to play Corrin as he's a big FE fan, but this single new move is quickly making things unfun for us.

 

[atreyujames]

From a different point of view; this move is single handedly in the process of destroying my casual free-for-alls with friends. Even if you successfully read the counter, it's more than likely someone else's attack (or even a stray projectile) will connect with Corrin's extremely generous counter window, and the gigantic hitbox usually ends up netting him several free kills. It's now at the point where everyone just steers well clear of Corrin, in which case he wins anyway with his projectile as a result of taking no damage.

I get that 1v1v1v1v1v1 isn't exactly a raw test of skill, but this is how we like to play. Up until now no character has been so dominant in our matches. I can't really fault my friend for wanting to play Corrin as he's a big FE fan, but this single new move is quickly making things unfun for us.

Most of your post is valid, your opinion, and for the most part true. The wide hitbox of this counter makes it really goo in FFA's where everybody is just throwing around hitboxes. But Corrins counter window isn't any more "extremely generous" than any other ;

Bayonetta - 17 active frames
Roy - 20 active frames
Corrin, Greninja, Lucina, Little Mac, Marth, Palutena, - 23 active frames
Mii Swordfighter- 24 active frames
Ike - 26 active frames
Shulk (Depreciated) - 28 active frames
Lucario - 35 active frames
Shulk (Fresh)- 37 active frames

So yeah, only 2 characters with a shorter window, 5 with the same, and 5 with a longer window. By no means is his counter window any better than any other characters

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

I don't think it is broken, but it is probably one of the best. (In terms of functioning like a general counter meaning excluding Bayonetta's).

Great Knockback, Great angle, able to be use in the air unlike Shulk's.

Does it need a nerf? Depends on perspective. Honestly, I think it is a little bit too good at everything. In addition to the things mentioned previously, it is also good in FFAs. I think one of the things needs to be toned down a notch. I think changing the angle might help the most. Especially for things like FFAs.

But Corrin isn't really a broken character with it. Like most counters, people will find ways to avoid falling into traps.

 

[MarioMeteor]

a)It was near full charge, or else I've been playing some other game this whole time.

Well, make up your mind, at full charge or near full charge? Either way, it shouldn't have sent him flying at 9993 miles per hour.

b) Most Counters are both damage and knockback dependant, having separate multipliers for each (am 98% sure about this).

Should've been 100%, because that is in fact incorrect. If Counters were knockback dependent, then a countered Home-Run Bat would be nonsensically powerful, and this move might actually make sense.

c) The Marth kill wasn't ridiculous, if you factor rage, tipper effect, knockback, and trajectory.I would have been surprised if it hadn't killed him.

I won't pretend that I'm not amazed at how you can justify in your mind dying at 33%.

d)I don't really care whether it's OP or not,I don't depend on counters. But it's the swaggest counter in Smash, so stop complaining. No one else does it with so much style.

Except for Bayonetta and the Monando Boy.

 

[Metallinatus]

Well, make up your mind, at full charge or near full charge? Either way, it shouldn't have sent him flying at 9993 miles per hour.

Yes, it should, I tested every counter with Ike's decently charged F-Smash close to the edge since no other counter sends the opponent up like Kamui's does, so I try to make the travelling distance of the counters somewhat the same.... every single counter but one killed Ike at 8 freaking percent....
Palutena cries. Evrytiem.

 

[atreyujames]

I won't pretend that I'm not amazed at how you can justify in your mind dying at 33%.

Instead of crying "unfair", go do some ACTUAL, PHYSICAL research about this. at 149% rage, against a tippered Dair at approx the same distance to the blast zones, and with marth at 33%, I've managed to K.O with Ike, Roy, Lucario, and Shulk. And I haven't even bothered trying with Marcena, Mii, Palutena and Greninja yet. It really isn't insane for Corrin to be able to do it too

 

[Zionaze]

I thought this move was op and would grant me free early stocks after destroying scrubs at under 50%..... until i played actual good people like LarryLurr, Xzax, and Aphro.
Like i got 1 counter out of 500 and it wouldn't even result into a kill.
This move is still a counter and counters are considered bad for a reason. CS and Witch time just have a high reward ratio compared to others.

TL;DR only screbs die to counters at low %

 

[abx]

From a different point of view; this move is single handedly in the process of destroying my casual free-for-alls with friends. [...] It's now at the point where everyone just steers well clear of Corrin, in which case he wins anyway with his projectile as a result of taking no damage.

I get that 1v1v1v1v1v1 isn't exactly a raw test of skill, but this is how we like to play. Up until now no character has been so dominant in our matches. I can't really fault my friend for wanting to play Corrin as he's a big FE fan, but this single new move is quickly making things unfun for us.

Politelx ask him to not use Corrin nontheless. Judging by your post everyone is upset about him so your friend should see that it would no good to still use him. Alternatively ask him to not use the counter move. It's not difficult to stay away from a downB move.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Yes, it should, I tested every counter with Ike's decently charged F-Smash close to the edge since no other counter sends the opponent up like Kamui's does, so I try to make the travelling distance of the counters somewhat the same.... every single counter but one killed Ike at 8 freaking percent....
Palutena cries. Evrytiem.

Is Palutena's seriously that weak?

Instead of crying "unfair", go do some ACTUAL, PHYSICAL research about this. at 149% rage, against a tippered Dair at approx the same distance to the blast zones, and with marth at 33%, I've managed to K.O with Ike, Roy, Lucario, and Shulk. And I haven't even bothered trying with Marcena, Mii, Palutena and Greninja yet. It really isn't insane for Corrin to be able to do it too

Huh, interesting.
Now that I think about it, Erotic&Heretic made a very good point about Palutena's Temple, what with the high ceiling. I've found my new Corrin counterpick...

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Not only Palutena's Temple, but stages with high ceiling in general (like Hyrule Castle for exemple).

Of course, I'm not taking in account if a stage is legal or not, and I honestly don't know the exact legal stages list.

 

[ARGHETH]

Well, make up your mind, at full charge or near full charge? Either way, it shouldn't have sent him flying at 9993 miles per hour.

It was almost at full charge. It was at ~29% with ~30% being fully charged.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Not only Palutena's Temple, but stages with high ceiling in general (like Hyrule Castle for exemple).

Of course, I'm not taking in account if a stage is legal or not, and I honestly don't know the exact legal stages list.

I know for a fact that Palutena's is legal. I stopped bothering with the stage list a long time ago. I remember FD was at one point banned because the "background was too distracting."

 

[ARGHETH]

I know for a fact that Palutena's is legal. I stopped bothering with the stage list a long time ago. I remember FD was at one point banned because the "background was too distracting."

Dude. I don't think Palutena's temple is legal anywhere. If it is, I really doubt it's legal anywhere beyond local level.
(Also, if you don't bother with the stage list, how do you know what's banned or not?)

 

[atreyujames]

Dude. I don't think Palutena's temple is legal anywhere. If it is, I really doubt it's legal anywhere beyond local level.
(Also, if you don't bother with the stage list, how do you know what's banned or not?)

I think he might have meant Omega Palu Temple, which is indeed the most common FD substitute. But the blastzones are the same as FD, so it's no better of a counterpick against Corrin than regular FD is.

 

[OceloT42]

Well, make up your mind, at full charge or near full charge? Either way, it shouldn't have sent him flying at 9993 miles per hour.

Should've been 100%, because that is in fact incorrect. If Counters were knockback dependent, then a countered Home-Run Bat would be nonsensically powerful, and this move might actually make sense.

I won't pretend that I'm not amazed at how you can justify in your mind dying at 33%.

Except for Bayonetta and the Monando Boy.

Bruh, why are you getting so rude? This counter is like every other DLC move which people scream is OP (but is not)
So now a character having a semi useful kill option makes that move OP? It's pretty hard to kill as it is with Corrin, and that counter is not somethin you just toss out, it having startup and end lag.
No that Marth kill wasn't ridiculous, it was perfectly alright. So was Ike's kill, what with his smash near full charge(I am very clear on this point).
As for style, last I looked, no one else s transforms into a majestic beast and stomps down on their sorry ***.
I went counter fishing on FG for fun and literally no one fell for it, not even scrubs. Whoever did didn't die from it. If anything,I died from a G&W oil panic at 33%, so why don't you now complain about that?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Is Palutena's seriously that weak?

Palutena's Counter is powerful if it blocks a powerful attack like Koopa Meteor, but it apparently KOs later than most of the other Counter moves.

 

[Jamble]

I've never entered a tournament for Smash 4, but I gotta say from the powers of common sense, that if you're basing your counterpicks around CS, CS is the least of your problems as a player. It baffles me that Corrin's counter is even that much of a discussion.

 

[phate]

Bruh, why are you getting so rude? This counter is like every other DLC move which people scream is OP (but is not)
So now a character having a semi useful kill option makes that move OP? It's pretty hard to kill as it is with Corrin, and that counter is not somethin you just toss out, it having startup and end lag.
No that Marth kill wasn't ridiculous, it was perfectly alright. So was Ike's kill, what with his smash near full charge(I am very clear on this point).
As for style, last I looked, no one else s transforms into a majestic beast and stomps down on their sorry ***.
I went counter fishing on FG for fun and literally no one fell for it, not even scrubs. Whoever did didn't die from it. If anything,I died from a G&W oil panic at 33%, so why don't you now complain about that?

Are you seriously comparing counter to oil panic? You can totally shut down that move by not throwing projectiles. With counter, one good read nets one kill as early as 25%. I went to a tourney last night where Yoshi got killed at 64% (Corrin had 79%) throwing an up air out of a short hop. This move is way too rewarding, no matter how viable you think counter moves are.

 

[OceloT42]

Are you seriously comparing counter to oil panic? You can totally shut down that move by not throwing projectiles. With counter, one good read nets one kill as early as 25%. I went to a tourney last night where Yoshi got killed at 64% (Corrin had 79%) throwing an up air out of a short hop. This move is way too rewarding, no matter how viable you think counter moves are.

I wasn't comparing Oil Panic to CS.I just mentioned it.
Also, you just summarised the whole way to use counters.
A good read.
So yeah, that's sort of the whole point of counters and their viability. Also Yoshi's uair is pretty powerful so I'd say that's reasonable, if slightly ridiculous.
Do you have a video of it?

 

[atreyujames]

I went to a tourney last night where Yoshi got killed at 64% (Corrin had 79%) throwing an up air out of a short hop. This move is way too rewarding, no matter how viable you think counter moves are.

I'm gonna beat this into the ground, but most counters can kill close to the same percent at the same distance to the blastzone. Your example is the exact instance where corrin's counter is good. IN THE AIR.

As well, All Counters in general are not rewarding the player so much as punishing the worse player. Literally they can not kill unless someone is doing something unsafe and without considering the options of their opponent.

 

[FrankTheStud]

I haven't been able to find the fame data on Corrin and Bayo's counters, but they seem to come out faster than others. It's hard to uair string/combo characters when their counter comes out around frame 5, and it punishes so powerfully. Which Time is straight dumb sometimes, and Corrin's counter is just incedibly strong, and hardly ever misses. I don't mind someone playing smart counters, but when it comes to a point that counters can happen during a multi-hit dair, and confirm a stock, it's a little ridiculous.
Bayo and Corrin, without a doubt, have the top two counters in the game. They're borderline impossible to combo on, and when your character is combo heavy (Mario, Shiek, Zero Suit), the matchup is heavily against you. (Especially when Bayo is a combo Queen and her multi-hit jab is harder to mash out of compared to anyone else's in the game, and that they're both fairly difficult to gimp--Bayo ESPECIALLY because she has tons of jumps, and Corrin gets super armor and hitboxes during up+b).
Don't get me wrong, I'm happy they're in the game, and I'm happy that my way of playing is being challenged, but I feel like these characters do their job a little TOO WELL at the moment.

 

[OceloT42]

I haven't been able to find the fame data on Corrin and Bayo's counters, but they seem to come out faster than others. It's hard to uair string/combo characters when their counter comes out around frame 5, and it punishes so powerfully. Which Time is straight dumb sometimes, and Corrin's counter is just incedibly strong, and hardly ever misses. I don't mind someone playing smart counters, but when it comes to a point that counters can happen during a multi-hit dair, and confirm a stock, it's a little ridiculous.
Bayo and Corrin, without a doubt, have the top two counters in the game. They're borderline impossible to combo on, and when your character is combo heavy (Mario, Shiek, Zero Suit), the matchup is heavily against you. (Especially when Bayo is a combo Queen and her multi-hit jab is harder to mash out of compared to anyone else's in the game, and that they're both fairly difficult to gimp--Bayo ESPECIALLY because she has tons of jumps, and Corrin gets super armor and hitboxes during up+b).
Don't get me wrong, I'm happy they're in the game, and I'm happy that my way of playing is being challenged, but I feel like these characters do their job a little TOO WELL at the moment.

There's no super armor during Draconic Ascent, only invincibility at the start.
Also Counter Surge feels like it has Ike level counter startup.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Bruh, why are you getting so rude? This counter is like every other DLC move which people scream is OP (but is not)
So now a character having a semi useful kill option makes that move OP? It's pretty hard to kill as it is with Corrin, and that counter is not somethin you just toss out, it having startup and end lag.
No that Marth kill wasn't ridiculous, it was perfectly alright. So was Ike's kill, what with his smash near full charge(I am very clear on this point).
As for style, last I looked, no one else s transforms into a majestic beast and stomps down on their sorry ***.
I went counter fishing on FG for fun and literally no one fell for it, not even scrubs. Whoever did didn't die from it. If anything,I died from a G&W oil panic at 33%, so why don't you now complain about that?

You do realize this ended a while ago, huh?

Palutena's Counter is powerful if it blocks a powerful attack like Koopa Meteor, but it apparently KOs later than most of the other Counter moves.

I wonder why that is. Does it have a lower multiplier or something?

 

[FrankTheStud]

There's no super armor during Draconic Ascent, only invincibility at the start.
Also Counter Surge feels like it has Ike level counter startup.

Thanks for the correction--I thought it was Super Armor because cape didn't work. I'll have to look up the frames after work if someone has them posted.

 

[OceloT42]

Where can I find a list of counter multipliers etc.?
Smashwiki has failed me for the first time in memory.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I wonder why that is. Does it have a lower multiplier or something?

It may also have weaker knockback overall.

 

[phate]

I'm gonna beat this into the ground, but most counters can kill close to the same percent at the same distance to the blastzone. Your example is the exact instance where corrin's counter is good. IN THE AIR.

As well, All Counters in general are not rewarding the player so much as punishing the worse player. Literally they can not kill unless someone is doing something unsafe and without considering the options of their opponent.

Because short hop U-Air is such an unsafe option? I think that counters in general are dumb in Smash 4 because it is one more reward for playing defensive in such a campy game in the first place. Other counters however can be avoided based on the angle of the attack and position of the counter. Corrin and Bayonetta don't have this disadvantage however. You couple that with the standard match being 2 stocks and lack of combo potential to make up getting killed by such a devastating counter and you have a problem on your hands. I don't think this makes Corrin overpowered, but the move certainly is overpowered. The other characters with counter don't have the same KO tools he has, not to mention their counters aren't as easy to do.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Thanks for the correction--I thought it was Super Armor because cape didn't work. I'll have to look up the frames after work if someone has them posted.

I thought Cape wasn't affected by Super Armor?

 

[OceloT42]

Because short hop U-Air is such an unsafe option? I think that counters in general are dumb in Smash 4 because it is one more reward for playing defensive in such a campy game in the first place. Other counters however can be avoided based on the angle of the attack and position of the counter. Corrin and Bayonetta don't have this disadvantage however. You couple that with the standard match being 2 stocks and lack of combo potential to make up getting killed by such a devastating counter and you have a problem on your hands. I don't think this makes Corrin overpowered, but the move certainly is overpowered. The other characters with counter don't have the same KO tools he has, not to mention their counters aren't as easy to do.

Corrin doesn't have good KO tools without a solid read, so that counter is pretty good as it is.
When you say counters can be avoided, do you mean they can be DI'd out of? Because you can only truly avoid Substitute or Double Team.
Also, please refrain from labeling Witch Time as a counter, it only functions like one. It is a new gimmick entirely (Just my opinion, go on calling it a counter if you wish)

 

[Andinus]

From a different point of view; this move is single handedly in the process of destroying my casual free-for-alls with friends. Even if you successfully read the counter, it's more than likely someone else's attack (or even a stray projectile) will connect with Corrin's extremely generous counter window, and the gigantic hitbox usually ends up netting him several free kills. It's now at the point where everyone just steers well clear of Corrin, in which case he wins anyway with his projectile as a result of taking no damage.

I get that 1v1v1v1v1v1 isn't exactly a raw test of skill, but this is how we like to play. Up until now no character has been so dominant in our matches. I can't really fault my friend for wanting to play Corrin as he's a big FE fan, but this single new move is quickly making things unfun for us.

I totally must agree with this. While this counter probably will not impact top level play, it does negatively impact casual play and online team battles. I probably play this game about 8-10 hours a week and spend 85% of my time in for fun and for glory team battles, and about 15% in 1v1 because I have more fun overall in team battle, you can get away with stuff (fun moves) in online team battle you will can't in 1v1.

Quite honestly 1v1 for me gets mentally taxing, and that is not why I play smash. I am not a competitive player and even if I had the time and desire to invest in becoming a top level player I probably would not crack the top 1000. That is not to say I don't take my matches seriously though. I have played nearly 12000 matches online and racked up a pretty high % of wins and even though they are not meaningful wins they are still fun. But this counter seriously unbalances the nature of all other aspects of play besides competitive 1v1, and the majority of players out there are not obsessed with 1v1 matches, like I would guess about 75% of this site's members are. So you have a move which is badly unbalancing the way most people play this game. That's not a good thing..

I have never felt this way about a single move or character before, Cloud, did not see any issues, Bayonetta still no issues. But this counter.. just think about it. Anybody who plays lots of team battle knows that 50% of the time you will probably get stuck with someone who is not that good, racking up just as many deaths as you can manage kills. now give someone (and someone who probably is a pushover playing any other character) a way to just annihilate them, and it becomes just a joke to even try an play.

I know most competitive members on here probably don't give two craps about this, but this move is making the way I enjoy, and probably the way most people enjoy the game a lot less enjoyable.

So is it the best, and most over powered counter? in online 4 on 4, and team battles, hell yes it is!

 

[atreyujames]

I haven't been able to find the fame data on Corrin and Bayo's counters, but they seem to come out faster than others.

First Active frames of every Counter
Little Mac - Frame 4
Bayo, Lacario, Lucina, Marth - Frame 5
Mii - Frame 6
Corrin, Shulk - Frame 7
Greninja, Roy - Frame 8
Ike, Palutena - Freame 9
Peach - Frame 11

So yeah. Corrin is smack dab in the middle. Bayo's is fast, as well as having BatWithin to cover any mistakes.

Because short hop U-Air is such an unsafe option? I think that counters in general are dumb in Smash 4 because it is one more reward for playing defensive in such a campy game in the first place. Other counters however can be avoided based on the angle of the attack and position of the counter. Corrin and Bayonetta don't have this disadvantage however. You couple that with the standard match being 2 stocks and lack of combo potential to make up getting killed by such a devastating counter and you have a problem on your hands. I don't think this makes Corrin overpowered, but the move certainly is overpowered. The other characters with counter don't have the same KO tools he has, not to mention their counters aren't as easy to do.

Short-hop Uair is unsafe against any characters that have any tools to beat it. Nothing is ever 100% safe on every character just because it is for most. CS is going to make things hard for you if you can't get it through your head to bait it out (Like EVERY other counter that gets used), use a projectile to set up (Pretty sure yoshi's egg is great for that), or in general find some other way around the move. Its not like you'd throw around moves in front of a Limit Break Cloud, or run up and sheild when marth is charging a sheild breaker, or try and attack Little Mac when he's charging a smash attack, or keep using energy projectiles when G&W is bucket happy, etc, etc. Any good player should expect to have to modify their playstyles and judge for themselves whether a move is unsafe or not in any situation. Yes Counter Surge is a good counter. Probably one of the best. but it is still a Counter. And as it's been said MANY times on this thread, Counters are very situational.

 

[Skitrel]

Don't shorthop uair against an opponent that has an option to kill you for doing that.

Same as not fighting a god damn Ganon standing by the ledge when he's a stock up. Don't do something incredibly stupid and nothing bad will happen to you.

Awareness is the key here. With awareness of "If I do x then I might get killed for it" people stop doing it.

IP tippers at people's feet have more issues than counter does, it punishes most of the cast easily, can't be punished by most of the cast, and it's a kill move on top. Counter is not a competitive problem in the slightest, it's a casual netplay problem.

 

[phate]

Corrin doesn't have good KO tools without a solid read, so that counter is pretty good as it is.
When you say counters can be avoided, do you mean they can be DI'd out of? Because you can only truly avoid Substitute or Double Team.
Also, please refrain from labeling Witch Time as a counter, it only functions like one. It is a new gimmick entirely (Just my opinion, go on calling it a counter if you wish)

I think he has decent KO options, considering his throws kill and the neutral B can set up for KO's, but that's a different debate.

The counters can be avoided based on positions. For instance, a well spaced up air (with certain characters) below a falling Shulk will activate the counter, but the counterattack will miss. I've seen this happen with Marth, Little Mac, Lucario and Greninja as well. The range on Corrin's counter seems to be much more effective.

It's just strange that the counter kills more effectively than Jigg's rest, but is waaaay safer.

And as for witch time, it's unique, but it's essentially a counter. No need to split hairs.