Corrin has the best Counter ?

[Nah]

Thanks for the correction--I thought it was Super Armor because cape didn't work. I'll have to look up the frames after work if someone has them posted.

The i-frames on Dragon Ascent are frames 10-17 iirc, with the hitbox coming out on frame 18.

 

[FrankTheStud]

First Active frames of every Counter
Little Mac - Frame 4
Bayo, Lacario, Lucina, Marth - Frame 5
Mii - Frame 6
Corrin, Shulk - Frame 7
Greninja, Roy - Frame 8
Ike, Palutena - Freame 9
Peach - Frame 11

So yeah. Corrin is smack dab in the middle. Bayo's is fast, as well as having BatWithin to cover any mistakes.



Short-hop Uair is unsafe against any characters that have any tools to beat it. Nothing is ever 100% safe on every character just because it is for most. CS is going to make things hard for you if you can't get it through your head to bait it out (Like EVERY other counter that gets used), use a projectile to set up (Pretty sure yoshi's egg is great for that), or in general find some other way around the move. Its not like you'd throw around moves in front of a Limit Break Cloud, or run up and sheild when marth is charging a sheild breaker, or try and attack Little Mac when he's charging a smash attack, or keep using energy projectiles when G&W is bucket happy, etc, etc. Any good player should expect to have to modify their playstyles and judge for themselves whether a move is unsafe or not in any situation. Yes Counter Surge is a good counter. Probably one of the best. but it is still a Counter. And as it's been said MANY times on this thread, Counters are very situational.

Thanks for this!

 

[MaxRevenge]

I'll have to disagree here. Shulk's Power Vision is the strongest counter in the game. Do some testing and you'll find that it's painfully obvious (especially its forward variant). It has a 1.5x damage multiplier and crazy knockback. Yes, it is hard to land while in the air, but it has so much raw power that it more than makes up for it.

Now, let's talk about Shulk's standard forward vision. How good is that compared to Corrin's counter? Well, let's see.

Firstly, I can verify that Shulk's forward vision does more knockback. It can kill earlier, especially near the ledge. For example, if Corrin counters a falcon punch, we won't kill Captain Falcon until he's at 19%. Shulk, on the other hand, can do it at 17% or less, depending on how close he is to the ledge. Shulk also has the Smash and Buster monado to enhance his counter. Buster counter HURTS. When fresh, it has a 2.0x multiplier. But it doesn't do much knockback. If you use smash monado at higher percents (~70%), you can counter weak moves such as a jab and net easy kills.

That's not to say that it's better. In fact, I don't think it is. Firstly, Shulk can only use his forward vision on the ground. Also, his non-forward vision just sucks. Corrin's counter has equal killing potential throughout the stage due to its launch angle. I'd say that the launch angle is the biggest thing about Corrin's counter, as most omega vertical blast zones are extremely low (204 ft). It also has a lot of range and can hit reliably.

 

[WondrousMoose]

I'll have to disagree here. Shulk's Power Vision is the strongest counter in the game. Do some testing and you'll find that it's painfully obvious (especially its forward variant). It has a 1.5x damage multiplier and crazy knockback. Yes, it is hard to land while in the air, but it has so much raw power that it more than makes up for it.

Now, let's talk about Shulk's standard forward vision. How good is that compared to Corrin's counter? Well, let's see.

Firstly, I can verify that Shulk's forward vision does more knockback. It can kill earlier, especially near the ledge. For example, if Corrin counters a falcon punch, we won't kill Captain Falcon until he's at 19%. Shulk, on the other hand, can do it at 17% or less, depending on how close he is to the ledge. Shulk also has the Smash and Buster monado to enhance his counter. Buster counter HURTS. When fresh, it has a 2.0x multiplier. But it doesn't do much knockback. If you use smash monado at higher percents (~70%), you can counter weak moves such as a jab and net easy kills.

That's not to say that it's better. In fact, I don't think it is. Firstly, Shulk can only use his forward vision on the ground. Also, his non-forward vision just sucks. Corrin's counter has equal killing potential throughout the stage due to its launch angle. I'd say that the launch angle is the biggest thing about Corrin's counter, as most omega vertical blast zones are extremely low (204 ft). It also has a lot of range and can hit reliably.

Your post is worded in a somewhat confusing way. Are you saying that Shulk's counter is potentially stronger but not better overall? If so, then I'd agree with you. He can whiff it pretty easily; it's so much fun to have Sheik's Fair countered and then float over his head slowly as he tries to respond.

 

[Hydde]

i think we are agree on it. Shulk´s is imba as **** when it connects... but corrins aoe makes it way more reliable

 

[KingJigglypuff]

Gonna put all of this in a spoiler, since it's kinda long.

Spoiler

It should be important to note why Corrin's Counter is so strong.

Firstly, let's take a look at its technical aspects.

Base Damage: 8

Angle: 80 (Initial Hit), 90 (Late Hit)

Damage Multiplier: 1.3*

Base Knockback: 90

Knockback Growth: 74 (Initial Hit), 68 (Late Hit)

While this move has slightly less overall Knockback than Captain Falcon's grounded Raptor Boost (100 BKB and 75 KBG), we have to take note that knockback scales with higher damage (both on the attack's damage and the victim's percentage), so while Captain Falcon can get "earlier" KOs with his grounded Raptor Boost, it's set at 9 damage, so don't expect getting KOs until around 119% on a middleweight character (without Rage and DI).

Though since Corrin's Counter Surge has a multiplier, higher damaging moves will allow getting very early KOs (as shown in this video). Top that off with Rage, and you can get even earlier KOs. In a realistic situation, a well placed Counter to a moderately powerful Smash Attack could get a KO at around 64% on a middleweight charcter (without DI or Rage).

The counters that come closest to getting a KO this early would be Shulk's forward Counter, Ike's Counter, and Roy's Counter. If we take the scenario I presented with Corrin's Counter and apply it to these Counters, then they would get their KOs at around 71% to 77% on a middleweight character (with no DI or Rage). Every other counter would get their KO at around 86% to 108% (with no DI or Rage) with the weakest counters being Little Mac's and Palutena's.

With the data presented here, we can certainly conclude that Corrin's Counter is the strongest in the game. Now, the question is if Corrin's Counter really is broken or not. My opinion on the matter is that Corrin's Counter is in the gray area between being strong and being outright broken. Yes, Corrin's Counter is a very powerful move, but it's not as powerful as people make it out to be if we take realistic scenarios into consideration.

TL;DR: Corrin's Counter is the best in the game, but I'm undecided whether or not it's broken or just really strong.

It has a 1.5x damage multiplier and crazy knockback.

This is incorrect. No Counter has a 1.5* damage multiplier. The strongest Damage Multiplier would be Roy's, which sits at 1.35*. Both Shulk's and Corrin's Counters have a Damage Multiplier of 1.3*. While you're correct about it having high knockback, its overall KO potential is slightly lower than Corrin's (not by much though). While Shulk's forward Counter has more base damage and higher knockback growth, its base knockback and angle are considerably lower than Corrin's.

For example, if Corrin counters a falcon punch, we won't kill Captain Falcon until he's at 19%. Shulk, on the other hand, can do it at 17% or less, depending on how close he is to the ledge.

Correct. If at center stage, Shulk's forward Counter won't KO a Falcon Punch until around 25%. Though if directly at the edge, it can KO as early as 5%. Though Corrin's Counter can reliably KO a Falcon Punch anywhere at around 19%.

Buster counter HURTS. When fresh, it has a 2.0x multiplier.

Again, incorrect. The Buster Art increases base Damage by 1.4*. This damage multiplier is added after the initial counter damage multiplier, so a forward Buster Art counter would do 45.5 damage if countering a Falcon Punch. 25*1.3*1.4=45.5

If you use smash monado at higher percents (~70%), you can counter weak moves such as a jab and net easy kills.

This is actually the only time in which Shulk's forward Counter can KO earlier than Corrin's Counter. With my scenario from my spoiler, Shulk's Smash Art forward counter can KO as early as 58%.

TL;DR: Corrin's Counter is more reliable at getting KOs, but Shulk's forward counter can certainly score earlier KOs if near the ledge or with the Smash Art.

The intention of my replies isn't to be aggressive, but to just clear up some misunderstood information from a technical level.

 

[OceloT42]

Gonna put all of this in a spoiler, since it's kinda long.

Spoiler

It should be important to note why Corrin's Counter is so strong.

Firstly, let's take a look at its technical aspects.

Base Damage: 8

Angle: 80 (Initial Hit), 90 (Late Hit)

Damage Multiplier: 1.3*

Base Knockback: 90

Knockback Growth: 74 (Initial Hit), 68 (Late Hit)

While this move has slightly less overall Knockback than Captain Falcon's grounded Raptor Boost (100 BKB and 75 KBG), we have to take note that knockback scales with higher damage (both on the attack's damage and the victim's percentage), so while Captain Falcon can get "earlier" KOs with his grounded Raptor Boost, it's set at 9 damage, so don't expect getting KOs until around 119% on a middleweight character (without Rage and DI).

Though since Corrin's Counter Surge has a multiplier, higher damaging moves will allow getting very early KOs (as shown in this video). Top that off with Rage, and you can get even earlier KOs. In a realistic situation, a well placed Counter to a moderately powerful Smash Attack could get a KO at around 64% on a middleweight charcter (without DI or Rage).

The counters that come closest to getting a KO this early would be Shulk's forward Counter, Ike's Counter, and Roy's Counter. If we take the scenario I presented with Corrin's Counter and apply it to these Counters, then they would get their KOs at around 71% to 77% on a middleweight character (with no DI or Rage). Every other counter would get their KO at around 86% to 108% (with no DI or Rage) with the weakest counters being Little Mac's and Palutena's.

With the data presented here, we can certainly conclude that Corrin's Counter is the strongest in the game. Now, the question is if Corrin's Counter really is broken or not. My opinion on the matter is that Corrin's Counter is in the gray area between being strong and being outright broken. Yes, Corrin's Counter is a very powerful move, but it's not as powerful as people make it out to be if we take realistic scenarios into consideration.

TL;DR: Corrin's Counter is the best in the game, but I'm undecided whether or not it's broken or just really strong.

This is incorrect. No Counter has a 1.5* damage multiplier. The strongest Damage Multiplier would be Roy's, which sits at 1.35*. Both Shulk's and Corrin's Counters have a Damage Multiplier of 1.3*. While you're correct about it having high knockback, its overall KO potential is slightly lower than Corrin's (not by much though). While Shulk's forward Counter has more base damage and higher knockback growth, its base knockback and angle are considerably lower than Corrin's.

Correct. If at center stage, Shulk's forward Counter won't KO a Falcon Punch until around 25%. Though if directly at the edge, it can KO as early as 5%. Though Corrin's Counter can reliably KO a Falcon Punch anywhere at around 19%.

Again, incorrect. The Buster Art increases base Damage by 1.4*. This damage multiplier is added after the initial counter damage multiplier, so a forward Buster Art counter would do 45.5 damage if countering a Falcon Punch. 25*1.3*1.4=45.5

This is actually the only time in which Shulk's forward Counter can KO earlier than Corrin's Counter. With my scenario from my spoiler, Shulk's Smash Art forward counter can KO as early as 58%.

TL;DR: Corrin's Counter is more reliable at getting KOs, but Shulk's forward counter can certainly score earlier KOs if near the ledge or with the Smash Art.

The intention of my replies isn't to be aggressive, but to just clear up some misunderstood information from a technical level.

You mentioned a video?
Also, great analysis!

 

[KingJigglypuff]

You mentioned a video?
Also, great analysis!

Oh, whoops. I forgot to remove the video mentions.

If you're wondering, it was a video showing just how strong Corrin's Counter was while comparing it to the stronger counters. The video mentions are there because I originally made the comment on the said video.

The video title has profanity in it, so I'll have to link the raw hyperlink, rather than embedding it, as I'm certain it would count as bypassing censors.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAAVDtNjNms

 

[WondrousMoose]

Gonna put all of this in a spoiler, since it's kinda long.

Spoiler

It should be important to note why Corrin's Counter is so strong.

Firstly, let's take a look at its technical aspects.

Base Damage: 8

Angle: 80 (Initial Hit), 90 (Late Hit)

Damage Multiplier: 1.3*

Base Knockback: 90

Knockback Growth: 74 (Initial Hit), 68 (Late Hit)

While this move has slightly less overall Knockback than Captain Falcon's grounded Raptor Boost (100 BKB and 75 KBG), we have to take note that knockback scales with higher damage (both on the attack's damage and the victim's percentage), so while Captain Falcon can get "earlier" KOs with his grounded Raptor Boost, it's set at 9 damage, so don't expect getting KOs until around 119% on a middleweight character (without Rage and DI).

Though since Corrin's Counter Surge has a multiplier, higher damaging moves will allow getting very early KOs (as shown in this video). Top that off with Rage, and you can get even earlier KOs. In a realistic situation, a well placed Counter to a moderately powerful Smash Attack could get a KO at around 64% on a middleweight charcter (without DI or Rage).

The counters that come closest to getting a KO this early would be Shulk's forward Counter, Ike's Counter, and Roy's Counter. If we take the scenario I presented with Corrin's Counter and apply it to these Counters, then they would get their KOs at around 71% to 77% on a middleweight character (with no DI or Rage). Every other counter would get their KO at around 86% to 108% (with no DI or Rage) with the weakest counters being Little Mac's and Palutena's.

With the data presented here, we can certainly conclude that Corrin's Counter is the strongest in the game. Now, the question is if Corrin's Counter really is broken or not. My opinion on the matter is that Corrin's Counter is in the gray area between being strong and being outright broken. Yes, Corrin's Counter is a very powerful move, but it's not as powerful as people make it out to be if we take realistic scenarios into consideration.

TL;DR: Corrin's Counter is the best in the game, but I'm undecided whether or not it's broken or just really strong.

This is incorrect. No Counter has a 1.5* damage multiplier. The strongest Damage Multiplier would be Roy's, which sits at 1.35*. Both Shulk's and Corrin's Counters have a Damage Multiplier of 1.3*. While you're correct about it having high knockback, its overall KO potential is slightly lower than Corrin's (not by much though). While Shulk's forward Counter has more base damage and higher knockback growth, its base knockback and angle are considerably lower than Corrin's.

Correct. If at center stage, Shulk's forward Counter won't KO a Falcon Punch until around 25%. Though if directly at the edge, it can KO as early as 5%. Though Corrin's Counter can reliably KO a Falcon Punch anywhere at around 19%.

Again, incorrect. The Buster Art increases base Damage by 1.4*. This damage multiplier is added after the initial counter damage multiplier, so a forward Buster Art counter would do 45.5 damage if countering a Falcon Punch. 25*1.3*1.4=45.5

This is actually the only time in which Shulk's forward Counter can KO earlier than Corrin's Counter. With my scenario from my spoiler, Shulk's Smash Art forward counter can KO as early as 58%.

TL;DR: Corrin's Counter is more reliable at getting KOs, but Shulk's forward counter can certainly score earlier KOs if near the ledge or with the Smash Art.

The intention of my replies isn't to be aggressive, but to just clear up some misunderstood information from a technical level.

Data and not just speculation? King Jiggs, you have done this thread a great service.

 

[KingJigglypuff]

Data and not just speculation? King Jiggs, you have done this thread a great service.

Thanks, I appreciate it. I was planning on making a basic reference guide for Counter KO percentages, alongside their technical bits, but I don't really know where I would put it.

 

[mdoepker]

So after a bit of testing, I noticed that what killed Little Mac so early isn't really the counter itself, but using his Hook FSmash, because it does lots of %.

Ike and Shulk can kill the same move a bit charged, on the center of FD, at something around 15 - 20%. And obviously, they can kill earlier at the edges of FD.

So... Yeah, Corrin's counter is strong, but not stupidily stronger than others counters.

It's angle (and base power too) makes it a really good counter, though, one of the best without a doubt.

That actually puts this into perspective quite a bit. Everybody was losing it over this video, so it's nice to know that CS isn't ridiculous. It is powerful, but if our counter gets nerfed, at the very least Bayonetta's should be coming with us!

https://youtu.be/loCxaGSLMko?t=101

Things are getting serious...

What just happened there o.o Does CS have a water(?) hitbox that low?

 

[ARGHETH]

What just happened there o.o Does CS have a water(?) hitbox that low?

Windbox, apparently. Didn't really push the other Corrin that far,

 

[mdoepker]

Windbox, apparently. Didn't really push the other Corrin that far,

Agreed, it more just seemed like they didn't recognize it quickly enough to react out of it.

 

[Lavani]

Asynchronous_Timer(Frames=26)
Special_Hitbox(Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=8, Unknown=0x50, Unknown=0x4A, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x5A, Unknown=12, Unknown=0, Unknown=6, Unknown=11, Unknown=0x12, Unknown=0, Unknown=1, Unknown=1, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x2, Unknown=0x9, Unknown=0x3, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x9, Unknown=0x3F, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0xF, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0)
Special_Hitbox(Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=8, Unknown=0x50, Unknown=0x4A, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x5A, Unknown=12, Unknown=0, Unknown=6, Unknown=-11, Unknown=0x12, Unknown=0, Unknown=1, Unknown=1, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x2, Unknown=0x9, Unknown=0x3, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x9, Unknown=0x3F, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0xF, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0)
Asynchronous_Timer(Frames=27)
Special_Hitbox(Unknown=0x2, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=8, Unknown=0x5A, Unknown=0x44, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x5A, Unknown=8, Unknown=0, Unknown=21, Unknown=11, Unknown=0x12, Unknown=0, Unknown=1, Unknown=1, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x2, Unknown=0x9, Unknown=0x3, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x9, Unknown=0x3F, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0xF, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0)
Special_Hitbox(Unknown=0x3, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=8, Unknown=0x5A, Unknown=0x44, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x5A, Unknown=8, Unknown=0, Unknown=21, Unknown=-11, Unknown=0x12, Unknown=0, Unknown=1, Unknown=1, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x2, Unknown=0x9, Unknown=0x3, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x9, Unknown=0x3F, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0xF, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0)
Asynchronous_Timer(Frames=31)
Remove_All_Hitboxes()
Script_End()

This is the data for Corrin's counter. Looks something like this:

Four hitboxes, zero windboxes.

The movement in the video looks exactly like a panic fastfall after the uair. The lack of a sparkle indicating a fastfall is odd, but I'm much more willing to believe there's a bug that sometimes makes it fail to display (maybe caused by the counter slowdown?) than that there's a mysterious spike windbox that doesn't exist in the game's code.

 

[mdoepker]

Asynchronous_Timer(Frames=26)
Special_Hitbox(Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=8, Unknown=0x50, Unknown=0x4A, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x5A, Unknown=12, Unknown=0, Unknown=6, Unknown=11, Unknown=0x12, Unknown=0, Unknown=1, Unknown=1, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x2, Unknown=0x9, Unknown=0x3, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x9, Unknown=0x3F, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0xF, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0)
Special_Hitbox(Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=8, Unknown=0x50, Unknown=0x4A, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x5A, Unknown=12, Unknown=0, Unknown=6, Unknown=-11, Unknown=0x12, Unknown=0, Unknown=1, Unknown=1, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x2, Unknown=0x9, Unknown=0x3, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x9, Unknown=0x3F, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0xF, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0)
Asynchronous_Timer(Frames=27)
Special_Hitbox(Unknown=0x2, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=8, Unknown=0x5A, Unknown=0x44, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x5A, Unknown=8, Unknown=0, Unknown=21, Unknown=11, Unknown=0x12, Unknown=0, Unknown=1, Unknown=1, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x2, Unknown=0x9, Unknown=0x3, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x9, Unknown=0x3F, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0xF, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0)
Special_Hitbox(Unknown=0x3, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=8, Unknown=0x5A, Unknown=0x44, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x5A, Unknown=8, Unknown=0, Unknown=21, Unknown=-11, Unknown=0x12, Unknown=0, Unknown=1, Unknown=1, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x2, Unknown=0x9, Unknown=0x3, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x9, Unknown=0x3F, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0xF, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0)
Asynchronous_Timer(Frames=31)
Remove_All_Hitboxes()
Script_End()

This is the data for Corrin's counter. Looks something like this:

Four hitboxes, zero windboxes.

The movement in the video looks exactly like a panic fastfall after the uair. The lack of a sparkle indicating a fastfall is odd, but I'm much more willing to believe there's a bug that sometimes makes it fail to display (maybe caused by the counter slowdown?) than that there's a mysterious spike windbox that doesn't exist in the game's code.

Regardless, it's really cool to actually see where the hitboxes are for CS. And it does seem to hit quite a bit lower than them. Interesting.

 

[Arrei]

I'm pretty sure I see the fastfall sparkle in there, to Corrin's top left. It's just really hard to see against Dreamland's background.

Edit: Yep, it's there. Slowed down the video to 0.25x. It comes out to Corrin's top left in the white cloud under that kidney shaped hole.

 

[mdoepker]

I'm pretty sure I see the fastfall sparkle in there, to Corrin's top left. It's just really hard to see against Dreamland's background.

Edit: Yep, it's there. Slowed down the video to 0.25x. It comes out to Corrin's top left in the white cloud under that kidney shaped hole.

So essentially, FF Corrin was like, "Damn CS, get me out of here," and SDd.

 

[MaxRevenge]

Gonna put all of this in a spoiler, since it's kinda long.

Spoiler

It should be important to note why Corrin's Counter is so strong.

Firstly, let's take a look at its technical aspects.

Base Damage: 8

Angle: 80 (Initial Hit), 90 (Late Hit)

Damage Multiplier: 1.3*

Base Knockback: 90

Knockback Growth: 74 (Initial Hit), 68 (Late Hit)

While this move has slightly less overall Knockback than Captain Falcon's grounded Raptor Boost (100 BKB and 75 KBG), we have to take note that knockback scales with higher damage (both on the attack's damage and the victim's percentage), so while Captain Falcon can get "earlier" KOs with his grounded Raptor Boost, it's set at 9 damage, so don't expect getting KOs until around 119% on a middleweight character (without Rage and DI).

Though since Corrin's Counter Surge has a multiplier, higher damaging moves will allow getting very early KOs (as shown in this video). Top that off with Rage, and you can get even earlier KOs. In a realistic situation, a well placed Counter to a moderately powerful Smash Attack could get a KO at around 64% on a middleweight charcter (without DI or Rage).

The counters that come closest to getting a KO this early would be Shulk's forward Counter, Ike's Counter, and Roy's Counter. If we take the scenario I presented with Corrin's Counter and apply it to these Counters, then they would get their KOs at around 71% to 77% on a middleweight character (with no DI or Rage). Every other counter would get their KO at around 86% to 108% (with no DI or Rage) with the weakest counters being Little Mac's and Palutena's.

With the data presented here, we can certainly conclude that Corrin's Counter is the strongest in the game. Now, the question is if Corrin's Counter really is broken or not. My opinion on the matter is that Corrin's Counter is in the gray area between being strong and being outright broken. Yes, Corrin's Counter is a very powerful move, but it's not as powerful as people make it out to be if we take realistic scenarios into consideration.

TL;DR: Corrin's Counter is the best in the game, but I'm undecided whether or not it's broken or just really strong.

This is incorrect. No Counter has a 1.5* damage multiplier. The strongest Damage Multiplier would be Roy's, which sits at 1.35*. Both Shulk's and Corrin's Counters have a Damage Multiplier of 1.3*. While you're correct about it having high knockback, its overall KO potential is slightly lower than Corrin's (not by much though). While Shulk's forward Counter has more base damage and higher knockback growth, its base knockback and angle are considerably lower than Corrin's.

Correct. If at center stage, Shulk's forward Counter won't KO a Falcon Punch until around 25%. Though if directly at the edge, it can KO as early as 5%. Though Corrin's Counter can reliably KO a Falcon Punch anywhere at around 19%.

Again, incorrect. The Buster Art increases base Damage by 1.4*. This damage multiplier is added after the initial counter damage multiplier, so a forward Buster Art counter would do 45.5 damage if countering a Falcon Punch. 25*1.3*1.4=45.5

This is actually the only time in which Shulk's forward Counter can KO earlier than Corrin's Counter. With my scenario from my spoiler, Shulk's Smash Art forward counter can KO as early as 58%.

TL;DR: Corrin's Counter is more reliable at getting KOs, but Shulk's forward counter can certainly score earlier KOs if near the ledge or with the Smash Art.

The intention of my replies isn't to be aggressive, but to just clear up some misunderstood information from a technical level.

I appreciate the response, but I'm afraid you're mistaken. Power vision does have a 1.5x damage multiplier: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Shulk_(SSB4)

Furthermore, it has far, far more killing potential than Corrin's Counter Surge.

Let's take a look at an example. We can both agree that Corrin's counter can KO a falcon punch anywhere at around 19%. Well, here's what power vision can do:

1. Move Captain Falcon to the far right end of final destination. Set his damage level to 14%.
2. Move Shulk to the far right end of final destination.
3. Forward Power Vision a falcon punch.
4. Captain falcon hits the LEFT blastzone and dies, even though he's being launched from the far RIGHT. And that's still 5% earlier than Corrin.

I suppose I could have been a little clearer when talking about the Buster Counter.

The 2.0x damage multiplier is possible due to stale move negation: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Stale-move_negation

A fresh falcon punch against a fresh Buster Shulk Counter (forward or standard) will do 50% damage.

 

[ARGHETH]

I appreciate the response, but I'm afraid you're mistaken. Power vision does have a 1.5x damage multiplier: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Shulk_(SSB4)

Furthermore, it has far, far more killing potential than Corrin's Counter Surge.

Let's take a look at an example. We can both agree that Corrin's counter KO a falcon punch anywhere at around 19%. Well, here's what power vision can do:

1. Move Captain to the far right end of final destination. Set his damage level to 14%.
2. Move Shulk to the far right end of final destination.
3. Forward Power Vision a falcon punch.
4. Captain falcon dies from the far right, even though he's being launched to the left. And that's still 5% earlier than Corrin.

I suppose I could have been a little clearer when talking about the Buster Counter.

The 2.0x damage multiplier is possible due to stale move negation: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Stale-move_negation

A fresh falcon punch against a fresh Buster Shulk Counter (forward or standard) will do 50% damage.

In other words, while Counter Surge technically isn't the strongest in the game, it's functionally the best in the game?

 

[KingJigglypuff]

I appreciate the response, but I'm afraid you're mistaken. Power vision does have a 1.5x damage multiplier: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Shulk_(SSB4)

Oh, Power Vision. You were talking about Customs. My mistake.

I personally don't include Customs, but if you do, then yeah, Power Vision would certainly be better.

 

[Seoxys]

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This is the data for Corrin's counter. Looks something like this:

Four hitboxes, zero windboxes.

The movement in the video looks exactly like a panic fastfall after the uair. The lack of a sparkle indicating a fastfall is odd, but I'm much more willing to believe there's a bug that sometimes makes it fail to display (maybe caused by the counter slowdown?) than that there's a mysterious spike windbox that doesn't exist in the game's code.

I must thank you very much, thanks to your post I tried to look harder than before and indeed, we can see the star.
https://youtu.be/loCxaGSLMko?t=101
At the left of Corrin's left hand when she's doing her backflip, right at the moment the water is pouring out of the other Corrin's counter.

Regardless of what's been said, Counter Surge is still a very situational move, since like any counter, it can't counter unblockable attacks, and grabs bypass the counter frames.

The problem I got with what you say here is this :
I can admit a counter is hard to put on real conditions, but you just need one correct read and you may eventually retire your opponent's stock, thanks to the incredible knockback Corrin's counter have.
I'm not one of these who would say that Counter is impossible to use, no it's not, if you're under pressure, this is the perfect tool, may your opponent forget what your Down B is for an instant because he keeps you on pression and due to mindgame reasons, you could just put it and punish him instead.
And also, that Counter makes some matchups almost impossible. Do we realize that Ganon's Neutral B and Down B are impossible to use against Corrin, thanks to the startup they each have ? (The Warlock Punch is not even a deal anymore, you see it coming at 3029109km, plus, because of the huge damages it inflicts, a counter would instantly kill the opponent. )
If your opponent have big startup on some of his moves, that simply makes them almost impossible to use, since he will think "I can't use this, I risk a counter, and I don't want THIS counter to hit me." :/

 

[Arrei]

Of course we realize Warlock Punch is impossible to use against Corrin - Warlock Punch is impossible to use against anyone. Just as it only hits people who are stupid enough to run into it, it's only pulled out by people stupid enough to try it against someone with a counter. A Ganon who's playing seriously uses Warlock Punch as often as Dedede pulls out Jet Hammer or Ike pulls out Fsmash, because they all can't punish anything, get punished by everything, and can't hit anything without the hardest of reads. Using it against a counter just makes it an even worse idea than usual. I still remember playing Lucina on For Glory and seeing a Ganon whip out the punch, and having time to run across half the stage and counter it.

 

[Nah]

The problem I got with what you say here is this :
I can admit a counter is hard to put on real conditions, but you just need one correct read and you may eventually retire your opponent's stock, thanks to the incredible knockback Corrin's counter have.
I'm not one of these who would say that Counter is impossible to use, no it's not, if you're under pressure, this is the perfect tool, may your opponent forget what your Down B is for an instant because he keeps you on pression and due to mindgame reasons, you could just put it and punish him instead.

"you just need one correct read and you may eventually retire your opponent's stock" is kinda true of a lot of characters/situations really

And also, that Counter makes some matchups almost impossible. Do we realize that Ganon's Neutral B and Down B are impossible to use against Corrin, thanks to the startup they each have ? (The Warlock Punch is not even a deal anymore, you see it coming at 3029109km, plus, because of the huge damages it inflicts, a counter would instantly kill the opponent. )
If your opponent have big startup on some of his moves, that simply makes them almost impossible to use, since he will think "I can't use this, I risk a counter, and I don't want THIS counter to hit me." :/

That's more that Ganondorf's a bad character (or at least that Warlock Punch/WizKick are bad moves) rather than Counter Surge being OP

 

[ARGHETH]

but you just need one correct read and you may eventually retire your opponent's stock, thanks to the incredible knockback Corrin's counter have.

Sheik and tipper Usmash, Pikachu's Thunder Spike...every character can say this, even those with trouble killing.

And also, that Counter makes some matchups almost impossible. Do we realize that Ganon's Neutral B and Down B are impossible to use against Corrin, thanks to the startup they each have ? (The Warlock Punch is not even a deal anymore, you see it coming at 3029109km, plus, because of the huge damages it inflicts, a counter would instantly kill the opponent. )

Warlock Punch never gets used regardless...that's like saying "don't charge smashes against characters with counters" except with smashes you can vary the charge timing.
Wizard's Foot generally isn't used either, except for unreactable stuff and as part of combos (Dthrow--> DownB at low %s, I think).

If your opponent have big startup on some of his moves, that simply makes them almost impossible to use, since he will think "I can't use this, I risk a counter, and I don't want THIS counter to hit me." :/

If your opponent has long startup on some of his moves, they aren't going to use it very often. Counter or not, a long and predictable startup lets you punish the opponent's laggy move. People aren't going to use laggy moves against, like, Pit very often, because he can punish them, even though be doesn't have a counter.

 

[Seoxys]

"you just need one correct read and you may eventually retire your opponent's stock"

Let me express it in an other way :
"You just need one correct read and you WILL retire your opponent's stock.[/quote]
We're talking about a counter that kills Mewtwo when he does his Nair, even if he is at ~100. No counter can kill a Nair, there is NO knockback on it and it is multi-hit, and does not give enormous anyway %.
The knockback on that counter is completely insane. Isn't it the best counter when it's about damage multiplication too ?

 

[ARGHETH]

The knockback on that counter is completely insane. Isn't it the best counter when it's about damage multiplication too ?

Nope. Shulk and Little Mac tie and Roy has more.

 

[atreyujames]

The knockback on that counter is completely insane. Isn't it the best counter when it's about damage multiplication too ?

As well, It doesn't even have the highest KBG. That belongs to Lucario, then Ike, then Greninja, then Roys sweetspot, then Shulk, then even Palutena, THEN Corrin. Corrin has the best BKB thats true... except its a tie for first place between Corrin, Little Mac, Mii swordfighter, Marth and Lucina.

Funny thing is I'm pretty sure that this has been said 2-3 times at least in the last 4 pages ;P

What makes Corrins counter good is not the Knockback, or the damage. Both of those are average. What makes it good is that it is hard to whiff, and the angle at which it sends the opponent. Those are the ONLY advantages this counter has over the others

 

[LordShade67]

What makes Corrins counter good is not the Knockback, or the damage. Both of those are average. What makes it good is that it is hard to whiff, and the angle at which it sends the opponent. Those are the ONLY advantages this counter has over the others

I don't know about other counters(too lazy to look), but with CS, the counterattack itself is invincible up until THE VERY LAST FRAME, giving the opponent a very small window to punish it. So even if by some miracle it whiffs, they can't realistically punish it.

That said, it's still a counter(Although IMO, it's got the best looking counter attack animation in the game, lol.), which means throwing it around haphazardly is asking to lose. And the guys getting countered because they threw out an unsafe option in neutral deserv to lose their stock for overextending.

 

[atreyujames]

Very true on all points. the attack itself is not a move that you can realistically punish on whiff. Its actually amusing the things you can do with Falco's laser + Corrin's Counter in doubles, only because there is almost no window to hit Corrin after the attack before she can input a new counter. Even more amusing is that the lasers go past Corrin and can hit people as well XD

 

[Arrei]

We're talking about a counter that kills Mewtwo when he does his Nair, even if he is at ~100. No counter can kill a Nair, there is NO knockback on it and it is multi-hit, and does not give enormous anyway %.
The knockback on that counter is completely insane. Isn't it the best counter when it's about damage multiplication too ?

At the edges, which is a comparable distance to the vertical blast zone, Ike's counter is actually fully capable of killing near 100 off of minimum strength counters. Killed ZSS off a jab from a third of the stage away from the ledge at 127-ish, for example. Again, the sole thing CS has going for it is the vertical knockback, which despite being a very powerful counter also has its own shortcomings - namely, it can't do what most other counters can do and interfere with recoveries for kills or gimps.

 

[MaxRevenge]

Let me express it in an other way :
"You just need one correct read and you WILL retire your opponent's stock.
We're talking about a counter that kills Mewtwo when he does his Nair, even if he is at ~100. No counter can kill a Nair, there is NO knockback on it and it is multi-hit, and does not give enormous anyway %.
The knockback on that counter is completely insane. Isn't it the best counter when it's about damage multiplication too ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpuUkRrGmUQ

(Sorry for the poor quality)

In this test scenario, the horizontal blast zone distance is roughly the same as the vertical blast zone distance. It might even be greater than the vertical blast zone distance: http://smashboards.com/threads/wii-u-stage-blast-zone-data.395357/

With the Smash Monado, Mewtwo dies at ~55%. Without the Smash Monado, Mewtwo dies at ~75%. Counter Surge kills at ~109%.

 

[GerudoKong]

The problem that annoys me with this counter is that the hitboxes are way too effective in the air. My Uair from got countered when I was around 47% and I died at 68 on FD. I know uair is a strong move, but for a high ceiling stage like FD that's pretty unreasonable. Not to mention how heavy is. If you look at other characters, countering when somebody is below you isn't that great of an option, but with Corrin its incredibly scary. Whenever I play a Corrin in bracket I have to play super careful to not activate any midair counters, and I usually end up missing what could have been significant opportunities for damage.

 

[atreyujames]

The problem that annoys me with this counter is that the hitboxes are way too effective in the air. My Uair from got countered when I was around 47% and I died at 68 on FD. I know uair is a strong move, but for a high ceiling stage like FD that's pretty unreasonable. Not to mention how heavy is. If you look at other characters, countering when somebody is below you isn't that great of an option, but with Corrin its incredibly scary. Whenever I play a Corrin in bracket I have to play super careful to not activate any midair counters, and I usually end up missing what could have been significant opportunities for damage.

While I'm not disagreeing with you, I should note that Bowser has one of the best options for if you are scared of Counter Surge; A command grab! My suggestion is to follow along beside corrin and if he counters, grab him and if he air dodges, Bair fair or Nair him. It's the easiest way to get around the counter

 

[ARGHETH]

The problem that annoys me with this counter is that the hitboxes are way too effective in the air. My Uair from got countered when I was around 47% and I died at 68 on FD. I know uair is a strong move, but for a high ceiling stage like FD that's pretty unreasonable. Not to mention how heavy is. If you look at other characters, countering when somebody is below you isn't that great of an option, but with Corrin its incredibly scary. Whenever I play a Corrin in bracket I have to play super careful to not activate any midair counters, and I usually end up missing what could have been significant opportunities for damage.

While I'm not disagreeing with you, I should note that Bowser has one of the best options for if you are scared of Counter Surge; A command grab! My suggestion is to follow along beside corrin and if he counters, grab him and if he air dodges, Bair fair or Nair him. It's the easiest way to get around the counter

Note: fighting a character with a counter is worse if you're busy worrying about it. Try to figure out when they use the counter and abuse it; if they're a spammer, CG them (or regular grab them, for that matter) or punish the endlag. If it's a good player who's smart about using it, you'll just give openings and lose free damage because you're too scared of the counter. Be aware that it exists (don't charge any smashes that aren't guaranteed), but don't base your play around it.
WT is far more broken and yet in 9B vs Ally, for example, it only gets used in the end to get the final kill.

 

[Ingoro]

The problem that annoys me with this counter is that the hitboxes are way too effective in the air. My Uair from got countered when I was around 47% and I died at 68 on FD. I know uair is a strong move, but for a high ceiling stage like FD that's pretty unreasonable. Not to mention how heavy is. If you look at other characters, countering when somebody is below you isn't that great of an option, but with Corrin its incredibly scary. Whenever I play a Corrin in bracket I have to play super careful to not activate any midair counters, and I usually end up missing what could have been significant opportunities for damage.

I think Corrin's counter is a real threat as opposed to some of the other counters. However as mentioend above, Command grab seems like a good choice if you're insecure about chasing the Corrin you're fighting.

 

[Skitrel]

The problem that annoys me with this counter is that the hitboxes are way too effective in the air. My Uair from got countered when I was around 47% and I died at 68 on FD. I know uair is a strong move, but for a high ceiling stage like FD that's pretty unreasonable. Not to mention how heavy is. If you look at other characters, countering when somebody is below you isn't that great of an option, but with Corrin its incredibly scary. Whenever I play a Corrin in bracket I have to play super careful to not activate any midair counters, and I usually end up missing what could have been significant opportunities for damage.

FD is an average ceiling equal in height to Smashville. Battlefield is the high ceiling in Smash 4.

 

[OceloT42]

Note: fighting a character with a counter is worse if you're busy worrying about it. Try to figure out when they use the counter and abuse it; if they're a spammer, CG them (or regular grab them, for that matter) or punish the endlag. If it's a good player who's smart about using it, you'll just give openings and lose free damage because you're too scared of the counter. Be aware that it exists (don't charge any smashes that aren't guaranteed), but don't base your play around it.
WT is far more broken and yet in 9B vs Ally, for example, it only gets used in the end to get the final kill.

WT? Which move is that?

 

[Skitrel]

WT? Which move is that?

Witch Time

 

[GerudoKong]

FD is an average ceiling equal in height to Smashville. Battlefield is the high ceiling in Smash 4.

I suppose, but when I died I went up so fast it didn't even look like I would be able to DI to survive if it were any ceiling height really

 

[GerudoKong]

I think Corrin's counter is a real threat as opposed to some of the other counters. However as mentioend above, Command grab seems like a good choice if you're insecure about chasing the Corrin you're fighting.

Unfortunately the aerial command grab has a lot of startup on it