Corrin has the best Counter ?

[Seoxys]

I think that after seeing this : https://youtu.be/3R5VZ1FGmPE?t=18 we can establish that this is the case ?
I don't remember that Shulk's can do the same, but I main him and know that Shulk's counter can be powerful, but Corrin's in this case is quite questioning, I mean, the Little Mac here was with only 3% and landed an not even midcharged fsmash, what are your thoughts about this ?

 

[abx]

Besides, I deem it noteworthy that Corrin's counter easily hits the opponent. Its hitbox covers both front and back and it even has some height. It even works reliably in the air, something I haven't experienced with other Fire Emblem counters. I'm not very familiar with Shulk, but I've seen it missing occasionally as well.

 

[/Lucina]

Can Corrin's counter whiff/miss the opponent like Shulk's and Little Mac's? It seems pretty reliable AND powerful. Near the ceiling it's crazy. I'd say it has a decent chance of being the best.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I have tried to utilize Counter Surge against some more predictable attacks, and the attack definitely strikes back hard against Bowser Jr.'s Koopa Meteor custom special move.

 

[cstonic]

Witch Time is pretty godlike, which is the only counter that I think is better

 

[Absol]

It's debatable. Ike could potentially kill even sooner if he has stage control. A simple jab on bayos witch time could result in a spike to end a stock.

 

[Petersheikah]

Corrin's counter is strong af. Especially in a stage like battlefield, your stock can be taken super early. I got countered while doing one of those vertical Bayonetta combos and got instakilled. It's definitely more menacing then all the other counters.

 

[Garde Noir]

Best in the game is really subjective, as how do you quantify the best? It's unique in that it's guaranteed to kill off the top, which is arguably the hardest direction to recover from, but Witch Time is more punishing in some situations, and depending on the character (like Falcon or Dorf) recovering from the side can be harder than from above. I would argue that it's really good, and one of the ones with the most knockback (outside of customs, where I'd argue it's Shulk's, though I don't have the data for that.) but I don't know how to quantify best

 

[Metallinatus]

It's debatable. Ike could potentially kill even sooner if he has stage control. A simple jab on bayos witch time could result in a spike to end a stock.

That moment when Palutena's counter is so shamefully bad it's not even in the chart....

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

That moment when Palutena's counter is so shamefully bad it's not even in the chart....

Quite odd, considering that Palutena's Counter is just as capable of making KOs upon blocking a powerful attack.

 

[/Lucina]

if you can bait out Bayonetta's Witch Time so that it whiffs twice on one of her stocks, you've effectively made her Witch Time far less effective for the rest of that stock... correct? Counter Surge does not have that problem. Witch Time is still amazing, and I'm not saying this makes Counter Surge objectively better, just something I thought I'd throw out there.

 

[Empyrean]

It's definitely one of the better counters around, seeing as it doesn't lose to multihit uairs (Sheik, DDD, etc) like other counters. Even if it fails to hit the attacker (I've managed to uair counter surge with falcon without getting hit), if Kurogane's data is correct (likely is), the intangibility lasts througout the entire move up until the before-last frame after which Corrin can act out, meaning the move can't be reasonably punished.

It's not as good at edgeguarding like Marth's and Lucina's but it more than makes up for it with a generous activation window and power, lmao.

I'd be confident in ranking counter surge as 2nd best counter right after witch time, which is a whole 'nother level of stupid.

 

[/Lucina]

It seems easier to counter attacks from below with this move.

 

[Skitrel]

It's debatable. Ike could potentially kill even sooner if he has stage control. A simple jab on bayos witch time could result in a spike to end a stock.

Can you link this google sheet please Absol? Many would probably like to look at it. Seems interesting.

 

[Metallinatus]

Quite odd, considering that Palutena's Counter is just as capable of making KOs upon blocking a powerful attack.

Nah, other counters can kill much sooner, and across the stage, while Palutena's can barely kill close to the edge at much later percents....

 

[Absol]

Can you link this google sheet please Absol? Many would probably like to look at it. Seems interesting.

I only had the screenshot. My apologies

 

[Skitrel]

Thanks anyway! Must be out there somewhere, I guess that's my cue to go digging rather than being a lazy so and so.

 

[DemonRin]

I'm starting to see some places online, like people on the Smash Reddit throwing out claims that Corrin's Counter is outright "Broken".

Truth be told, In what I've played of it, I've never had a moment like that Little Mac video where it's like "Lolwut?!" and kills at something low like 3%, so I'm not sure that's accurate but... what do you guys think?

It is capable of killing Little Mac at 3%, Mac's FSmash wasn't even charged, and it hits on BOTH sides, so it clearly has more range than any other Counter... Powerful, yes, but do we have another case like early Sm4sh Diddy Kong where it's outright "Broken"?

Also wonder... we obviously aren't getting any new DLC, but might we get like one or two final Balance Patches? Kinda makes sense considering.

 

[/Lucina]

I'm thinking there may be one or two more balance patches in the future; my guess is one last patch to adjust the new DLC characters and perhaps a few final tweaks to others.

 

[ZephyrZ]

The earliest I've killed was at, like, 60%. But then again, that was also at around 90% rage and was in mid air. My memory of what happened exactly is foggy. I think it was a Captain Falcon's Uair that I countered, but I'm not sure.

Anyway, I keep getting early kills with it, but they're generally no earlier than what you'd expect to see from the likes of Zero Suit Samus's up special and whatnot. Unlike Zamus's up special, though, it requires a hard read in order to work and literally can't combo from anything.

If you're hammering on a mid air Corrin without every mixing it up or being carefully, you're asking to die at 70%. On the contrary, I've used baiting and conditioning strategies to seriously punish opposing Corrins who try to intercept my attacks with Counter Surge.

 

[Seoxys]

https://youtu.be/loCxaGSLMko?t=101

Things are getting serious...

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Regardless of what's been said, Counter Surge is still a very situational move, since like any counter, it can't counter unblockable attacks, and grabs bypass the counter frames.

 

[Skitrel]

All the hate pretty much entirely comes from people being conditioned for over a year to go for juggles while feeling relatively safe about doing so.

Going for those against Corrin is a death sentence from mid percents.

People will learn to play around it just the same as they play around Cloud's Finishing Touch and Little Mac's KO punch. They'll stop doing really dumb things with a bit of experience.

 

[Absol]

Im not sure about that. After all they nerfed little mac in the first patch just because enough people complained. Poor guy...

 

[abx]

There's no confirmation that they nerfed Little Mac because of the complaints. Nintendo hasn't a track record of concerning itself with player's concerns.

 

[Skitrel]

Im not sure about that. After all they nerfed little mac in the first patch just because enough people complained. Poor guy...

Yep. But they've been extremely conservative with DLC character changes.

Nobody paid for Little Mac. They have to be careful about changes with DLC characters otherwise they'll be accused of making a powerful character just so people buy it and then immediately nerfing it after everyone has bought it.

Don't be naive about Nintendo listening to player feedback. They absolutely do like every single other developer in existence. They're no different.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

So after a bit of testing, I noticed that what killed Little Mac so early isn't really the counter itself, but using his Hook FSmash, because it does lots of %.

Ike and Shulk can kill the same move a bit charged, on the center of FD, at something around 15 - 20%. And obviously, they can kill earlier at the edges of FD.

So... Yeah, Corrin's counter is strong, but not stupidily stronger than others counters.

It's angle (and base power too) makes it a really good counter, though, one of the best without a doubt.

 

[ZephyrZ]

There's no confirmation that they nerfed Little Mac because of the complaints. Nintendo hasn't a track record of concerning itself with player's concerns.

I don't see why else they would of.
I mean, Sakurai had said just before that nerf that Little Mac had the single worst online win/loss ratio of anyone in the game.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Yeah people should really stop treating Counter Surge as a broken move, as it's only really destructive if you block a powerful attack. There's much less reward with blocking a weak attack, as blocking weak attacks really won't get you any KOs until your opponent is nearing the 200% damage level.

 

[/Lucina]

Well, I think the point is that fsmash is an important part of Little Mac's moveset, and no matter when he tries to do it, he's screwed if he gets Countered, right? I can see why it would alarm Mac players.

 

[Skitrel]

Nerf platforms and trees. Little Macs complained.

 

[Hydde]

What is really good about this counter is its AOE.

Its covers a lot of area on both sides and up, and is pretty safe even if somehow the enemy is not hitted by it because corrin recovers pretty fast from it.

IMO is def top 3, and i still think shulk´s is the best because of how deadly it is

 

[Arrei]

IMO, it may perhaps have too much growth for something that kills so well in the air. Haphazardly chased Corrin into the air, sure, you're dead. Hit his counter with a smash on the ground, you're gone, okay. But killing near the ground at 100% off a weaker attack, regardless of positioning is kinda pushing it.

But then, Witch Time spikes are a hell of a lot more "broken" if we're playing that game.

 

[MarioMeteor]

It is kind of disgusting that Corrin can do in one move what it takes Shulk two customs to do.

 

[Metallinatus]

It is kind of disgusting that Corrin can do in one move what it takes Shulk two customs to do.

It' totally disgusting that Shulk has dozen of customs while Mewtwo has a quantity of custom equivalent to his weight....

 

[MarioMeteor]

It' totally disgusting that Shulk has dozen of customs while Mewtwo has a quantity of custom equivalent to his weight....

Mewtwo has 72 customs?!

 

[Metallinatus]

Mewtwo has 72 customs?!

He has 0 weight.

 

[MarioMeteor]

He has 0 weight.

If that were the case, one jab would jab would kill him.

 

[Metallinatus]

If that were the case, one jab would jab would kill him.

Nah, jabs don't have nearly enough knockback....

 

[MarioMeteor]

Nah, jabs don't have nearly enough knockback....

If he had a weight value of 0 they would. I saw Counter Surge kill Ike at around 13% from a forward smash. Can you imagine what would happen to Mewtwo if his weight was 0?