Congratulations, Min Min! ARMS character(s) for Smash discussion

[zferolie]

I must be remembering Prime 2, because I don't recall female pronouns being used. Although the space pirates did refer to it as a goddess in Prime 3 didn't they?

Yeah Prime 2 barely mentioned Dark Samus. Prime 3 had military people and the other bounty hunters saying she. I think the pirates did call her that too but not sure

 

[Sigran101]

Yeah Prime 2 barely mentioned Dark Samus. Prime 3 had military people and the other bounty hunters saying she. I think the pirates did call her that too but not sure

Weird. Nonetheless Dark Samus is not actually female, making Dr. Coyle potentially the first female villain. That's actually kind of cool. I didn't realize it before. Still far from my top ARMS pick though. And honestly I think not very likely considering she came out at the very end of the game's hayday.

 

[YeppersPeppers]

Dark Samus is a weird one. Prime 2, 3, the Smash blog post for DS, and even Ultimate's Palutena's guidance all use female pronouns when referring to Dark Samus. Biologically, Metroid Prime itself has no given gender/sex (logbook entries for both forms use neutral pronouns), and to what extent the data copied from Samus altered Prime's biological form is up in the air.

 

[Sigran101]

Dark Samus is a weird one. Prime 2, 3, the Smash blog post for DS, and even Ultimate's Palutena's guidance all use female pronouns when referring to Dark Samus. Biologically, Metroid Prime itself has no given gender/sex (logbook entries for both forms use neutral pronouns), and to what extent the data copied from Samus altered Prime's biological form is up in the air.

I mean it only took on Samus' appearance and nothing else. It doesn't share any of Samus' abilities. It's probably even safe to say it just copied the suit, not even Samus herself. I find it hard to believe it could develop a gender from that. I think they just refer to it as female because it has Samus in it's name and Samus is female.

 

[YeppersPeppers]

I mean it only took on Samus' appearance and nothing else. It doesn't share any of Samus' abilities. It's probably even safe to say it just copied the suit, not even Samus herself. I find it hard to believe it could develop a gender from that. I think they just refer to it as female because it has Samus in it's name and Samus is female.

While I can definitely agree with that last bit, there is one thing taken from Samus - her voice. Dark Samus's voice, mostly heard in laughs, is similar to Samus'. Someone on the team (can't remember their name) said that they used unused Samus voice clips and just processed the hell out of them to make them sound like a creepy, distorted Samus. It's a small thing, however, and doesn't really provide anything major. Just thought I'd mention it.

 

[YeppersPeppers]

oops. Double post. That's what I get for posting from my phone.

 

[dimensionsword64]

How would you guys feel about the Arms character having their outfit from this image as an alternate costume? The outfits that have sleeves might be a little hard to make work, but some, like Coyle's blue dress, would work fine and would be awesome to see in Smash. Heck, they could even just remove the sleeves for Smash if they wanted, or just have super stretchy sleeves.

 

[Sigran101]

While I can definitely agree with that last bit, there is one thing taken from Samus - her voice. Dark Samus's voice, mostly heard in laughs, is similar to Samus'. Someone on the team (can't remember their name) said that they used unused Samus voice clips and just processed the hell out of them to make them sound like a creepy, distorted Samus. It's a small thing, however, and doesn't really provide anything major. Just thought I'd mention it.

That's really interesting. I didn't know that. Dark Samus really is weird huh? It's like she's a doppelganger but not. Like a doppelganger of a doppelganger.

 

[Koopaul]

Ugh, whenever the topic of whether or not the ARMS fighters can be alts all that ever gets discussed is their abilities. People talk as if that's the only reason why they can't be alts. But it goes deeper than just their unique powers. And I say this time and time and time and time again:

All the ARMS character animate differently. Ninjara stands like a ninja. Ninjara walks like a ninja. Ninjara jumps like a ninja. They way his body moves is completely different from the other fighters and the same applies to everyone from ARMS. In order for these fighters to be alts they'd have to move exactly the same.

Do you see the problem here? All these fighters have a distinct personality and body language. It would have to be removed in order to make them all alts.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Ugh, whenever the topic of whether or not the ARMS fighters can be alts all that ever gets discussed is their abilities. People talk as if that's the only reason why they can't be alts. But it goes deeper than just their unique powers. And I say this time and time and time and time again:

All the ARMS character animate differently. Ninjara stands like a ninja. Ninjara walks like a ninja. Ninjara jumps like a ninja. They way his body moves is completely different from the other fighters and the same applies to everyone from ARMS. In order for these fighters to be alts they'd have to move exactly the same.

Do you see the problem here? All these fighters have a distinct personality and body language. It would have to be removed in order to make them all alts.

I think aside from Ninjara, the characters commonly discussed as alts could use basically the same animations without much of an issue. Byleth (and probably others that I don't remember) already features different idle animations and such, so I think slightly different animations could be done, without affecting hitboxes and the like. As for Ninjara, yeah, that might mean he doesn't do things as ninja-like, but not to an egregious extent, honestly. Thems the blows, I guess.

These discussions are really hard to have because they basically hinge on what each of us has in our mind's eye, and that's hard to convey for obvious reasons. For the talented people in the community, a mock-up could be made, but I'm certainly not one of those.

 

[OnyanRings]

How would you guys feel about the Arms character having their outfit from this image as an alternate costume? The outfits that have sleeves might be a little hard to make work, but some, like Coyle's blue dress, would work fine and would be awesome to see in Smash. Heck, they could even just remove the sleeves for Smash if they wanted, or just have super stretchy sleeves.

Lola and Min's outfit are really cute and they could totally work with a few tweaks here and there, so yes, i support this idea.

 

[fogbadge]

How would you guys feel about the Arms character having their outfit from this image as an alternate costume? The outfits that have sleeves might be a little hard to make work, but some, like Coyle's blue dress, would work fine and would be awesome to see in Smash. Heck, they could even just remove the sleeves for Smash if they wanted, or just have super stretchy sleeves.

i would not mind it at all

That's really interesting. I didn't know that. Dark Samus really is weird huh? It's like she's a doppelganger but not. Like a doppelganger of a doppelganger.

cant get the image or dark samus in arms 2 out my head now

 

[meleebrawler]

i


cant get the image or dark samus in arms 2 out my head now

I've always felt Coyle could pull off a Dark Samus costume pretty well.

 

[Sigran101]

I've always felt Coyle could pull off a Dark Samus costume pretty well.

I guess they do both have those giant shoulder pads don't they?

 

[Koopaul]

I think aside from Ninjara, the characters commonly discussed as alts could use basically the same animations without much of an issue. Byleth (and probably others that I don't remember) already features different idle animations and such, so I think slightly different animations could be done, without affecting hitboxes and the like. As for Ninjara, yeah, that might mean he doesn't do things as ninja-like, but not to an egregious extent, honestly. Thems the blows, I guess.

These discussions are really hard to have because they basically hinge on what each of us has in our mind's eye, and that's hard to convey for obvious reasons. For the talented people in the community, a mock-up could be made, but I'm certainly not one of those.

I think I mentioned before that Byleth's idle is only a tiny bit different. They stand the exact same way and it's only the sword (which doesn't have a hurtbox) that is held differently. It's incredibly minimal. They run the same. Jump the same. Crouch the same. Even their taunts have only tiny tweak differences.

In this day and age of the echo fighter the idea of making such unique characters into alts is just unexceptable. I'm a huge ARMS fan and doing that would be doing these fighters dirty in my opinion.

 

[fogbadge]

I've always felt Coyle could pull off a Dark Samus costume pretty well.

the colour scheme would suit her

 

[Sigran101]

I think I mentioned before that Byleth's idle is only a tiny bit different. They stand the exact same way and it's only the sword (which doesn't have a hurtbox) that is held differently. It's incredibly minimal. They run the same. Jump the same. Crouch the same. Even their taunts have only tiny tweak differences.

In this day and age of the echo fighter the idea of making such unique characters into alts is just unexceptable. I'm a huge ARMS fan and doing that would be doing these fighters dirty in my opinion.

This is absolutely true. The majority of people who are saying they should add them as alts aren't even ARMS fans. Most of them are just people who think it's a boring choice and are grasping at anything they can to make it more interesting for themselves, even if it makes it worse for the actual fans.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

My biggest issue with the idea of ARMS alts is the existence of , who only differentiates herself from alt costume characters by pretty much only having her unique idle stance, taunts and animations differing from . A big appeal of ARMs characters are their distinct personalities shown through their animations. Spring Man doesn’t have the same personality as Ribbon Girl who is different from Min Min and Ninjara. I could easily see Ribbon Girl as an Echo Fighter of Spring Man though.

 

[Koopaul]

I wouldn't go so far and say they aren't all ARMS fans. But I don't think some of them spent the time really looking at all these characters as in-depth. I'm big into character animation in general. How a character moves says a lot about them. Smash is amazing at doing this. Body language is a huge part of it all. Just look at Banjo and Kazooie!

 

[Sigran101]

I wouldn't go so far and say they aren't all ARMS fans. But I don't think some of them spent the time really looking at all these characters as in-depth. I'm big into character animation in general. How a character moves says a lot about them. Smash is amazing at doing this. Body language is a huge part of it all. Just look at Banjo and Kazooie!

Well maybe within this thread there are more ARMS fans saying it, but I've definitely seen a lot of people in other threads basically going "ARMS is just a stupid shill on par with Byleth. It's basically stretchy punch out, who cares. At least they're most likely going to add four characters instead of just one". And then proceed to argue with their clearly vast amount of knowledge of the inner workings of "Stretchy punchout" (yes that's a real quote) why they would work fine as alts.

 

[Koopaul]

Yeah you're right. I have seen that before. It's really annoying when people try to make an argument on a subject they barely know anything about.

 

[Trevenant]

Now that you mention it I remember Daisy does have her own differences as an echo actually. One of her attacks comes out a frame or two quicker than Peach's and she has a wider hurtbox when dashing. Ironically I'd imagine Peach to have the quicker attack as although it is a single incredibly miniscule difference, Peach is a lot more of a pacifist (who would try to retreat asap) than Daisy who is definitely more of a tomboy who would put more power into her attacks. Point is echoes do need functional differences. Not that I have seen it here but I've seen people say Daisy and others are just skins. Lucina obviously has a completely different playstyle as she deals more damage near the base, Dark Pit has a different final smash, Dark Samus has extra hitstun frames on attacks with electric effects and her final smash deals a bit less damage, Chrom obviously has the Up B and others and Ken is pretty too in depth. Obviously not limited to. Not saying ARMS characters have to function the exact same but they'd obviously have gameplay differences if they were echoes

 

[Sigran101]

Now that you mention it I remember Daisy does have her own differences as an echo actually. One of her attacks comes out a frame or two quicker than Peach's and she has a wider hurtbox when dashing. Ironically I'd imagine Peach to have the quicker attack as although it is a single incredibly miniscule difference, Peach is a lot more of a pacifist (who would try to retreat asap) than Daisy who is definitely more of a tomboy who would put more power into her attacks. Point is echoes do need functional differences. Not that I have seen it here but I've seen people say Daisy and others are just skins. Lucina obviously has a completely different playstyle as she deals more damage near the base, Dark Pit has a different final smash, Dark Samus has extra hitstun frames on attacks with electric effects and her final smash deals a bit less damage, Chrom obviously has the Up B and others and Ken is pretty too in depth. Obviously not limited to. Not saying ARMS characters have to function the exact same but they'd obviously have gameplay differences if they were echoes

No, Daisy has no functional difference. Neither do Dark Samus or Richter (aside from aura damage on holy water instead of fire, which is basically nothing). I'm not sure where you got that from.

 

[YeppersPeppers]

Having multiple characters as alts is something I could kinda see happening if there was a desire to include as much of the cast as possible at once, but as a fan of these characters I'm not entirely sure how I would feel about it. For me, the ideal situation would be Spring Man but with a surprise Ribbon Girl echo. Moveset-wise they'd be nearly identical, but where they differentiate would be in their unique abilities (Spring's deflect and pinch-boost, Ribbon's multi-jumps and fast-fall). The unique abilities may need to be adjusted a bit to fit a little better in Smash (because holy smokes the insta-drop ability would be NUTS, as demonstrated by the spirits that give it), but I think just those abilities alone would make both characters feel so distinct from one-another even with the same attacks.

Of course, I'm not even that confident in DLC echo fighters happening at all, but that's definitely the scenario that I would be most happy with.

 

[osby]

No, Daisy has no functional difference. Neither do Dark Samus or Richter (aside from aura damage on holy water instead of fire, which is basically nothing). I'm not sure where you got that from.

Daisy's attributes are slightly different from Peach's. Emphasis on 'slightly' but it's there. Dark Samus also has a couple of minor differences from regular Samus, most notably on her rolls. And while the Holy Water damage type is ignorable, it still makes two Belmont's codes different.

 

[Sigran101]

Daisy's attributes are slightly different from Peach's. Emphasis on 'slightly' but it's there. Dark Samus also has a couple of minor differences from regular Samus, most notably on her rolls. And while the Holy Water damage type is ignorable, it still makes two Belmont's codes different.

Interesting. I didn't know that. Was it in an update? Because I clearly remember deep analysis of the characters showing zero differences when the game first came out. Still though, this is clearly not the reason they were made echoes instead of alts. Way too minor.

 

[osby]

Interesting. I didn't know that. Was it in an update? Because I clearly remember deep analysis of the characters showing zero differences when the game first came out. Still though, this is clearly not the reason they were made echoes instead of alts. Way too minor.

Actually, Sakurai explicitly stated that two characters can't share a fighter slot if they have any sort of differences that affect gameplay, no matter how small they might be.

Agreed that Daisy/Richter probably got their tweaks so that they can have their own slots but alts seem to have the exact same code aside from model/voice/animations.

 

[Sigran101]

Actually, Sakurai explicitly stated that two characters can't share a fighter slot if they have any sort of differences that affect gameplay, no matter how small they might be.

Agreed that Daisy/Richter probably got their tweaks so that they can have their own slots but alts seem to have the exact same code aside from model/voice/animations.

You touched on this, but to expand on it, my point was not that the tweaks don't require a separate slot, but that they could be tweaked because they were already a separate slot. Obviously Daisy does not have to have a couple of frames of difference on a couple of attacks in order to be represented properly. It was the animation differences that really make her different. There's a reason why pro tier lists rank one or the other but not both. The differences are so small that they're functionally the same character.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Funny to think that Pit and Dark Pit went from being the cloniest clones to the echo with a decent amount of difference with not much changing.
Though come to think of it, the same thing happened when Dr. Mario was brought back.

In terms of ARMS characters, most share a spring-in-their-step combat ready stance and there's no taunts in the game by default so it's potentially possible for them to work as alt costumes.

I don't think that will be the case personally but it could happen. The larger Koopalings did get size nerfed and Alph is prancing around with non-canon white and purple Pikmin.

 

[Trevenant]

No, Daisy has no functional difference. Neither do Dark Samus or Richter (aside from aura damage on holy water instead of fire, which is basically nothing). I'm not sure where you got that from.

You obviously aren't informed then. Yes they do have differences. It may be minor but they still aren't skins. Sakurai did actually confirm that the tiniest difference warrants a unique slot. He said Lucina and Dark Pit started as one but were separated after they made differing tweaks in development. Those differences have actually been in the game since launch iirc. They may not be big differences but the fact is that are still differences which warrant additional slots.

 

[MBRedboy31]

I was quite against the idea of a composite character back in the pre-release days, but I’m much more interested in it now. Like, if we’re getting only one slot, it’d be nice to see more of these great designs present in Smash, even though they’d have to make very obvious sacrifices regarding their individual uniqueness.

That’s what this mainly is: whether or not trading uniqueness for more diverse representation of the cast is worth it or not, and different people will have different opinions on that.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Since I don't exactly appreciate being called "not a true fan" of a game I bought day one and played the **** out of with friends, I'll mention that I don't think ARMS should be represented as alts - I've been vocal about my loathing of alts since my boy Alph got stuck as one. I just think it's a realistic possibility that we should all brace ourselves for.

 

[Koopaul]

In terms of ARMS characters, most share a spring-in-their-step combat ready stance and there's no taunts in the game by default so it's potentially possible for them to work as alt costumes.

Not at all actually. How these characters stand and move is different.

Spring Man has a general boxers stance where he hops back and forth on his toes. Ribbon Girl keeps her legs wide apart and has a very dance-like idle, bobbing from side to side.

Spring Man jumps by kicking his left leg outwards, Ribbon Girl jumps more graceful and keeps her legs tucked together.

Even standing and jumping showcases who these fighters are. They do not share the same "spring in their step" stance.

 

[Cosmic77]

Not at all actually. How these characters stand and move is different.

Spring Man has a general boxers stance where he hops back and forth on his toes. Ribbon Girl keeps her legs wide apart and has a very dance-like idle, bobbing from side to side.

Spring Man jumps by kicking his left leg outwards, Ribbon Girl jumps more graceful and keeps her legs tucked together.

Even standing and jumping showcases who these fighters are. They do not share the same "spring in their step" stance.

Even if the stances differ, I feel like you're pointing out the differences between butter and margarine.

I bought ARMS the day it came out, and while I appreciate the attention to detail they put into the animations, some of you are exaggerating how important they are to the character. Will Ribbon Girl look weird with Spring Man's idle animation? Maybe a little, but I don't think that's enough for me to say she shouldn't be an Echo.

I know special abilities are a lot different than idle animations, but I don't think they're vital either. In a game like ARMS where you only have three attacks (L arm, R arm, grab) they might stand out, but Smash is more complex than that. Any special move would probably just be swallowed up by the rest of the moveset, occupying one or two specials at most. Min Min's kick will not be included in a majority of her attacks if she's representing a game called ARMS. Ninjara's vanish ability might be a special and/or an aesthetic for his dodges, but probably not much else beyond that. Ribbon Girl is essentially two more jumps and a faster falling speed.

 

[MattX20]

Regarding whether or not we'll get additional characters as alts is not clear right now, but I'm willing to bet that MinMin will be the default fighter at bare minimum if we do

 

[♕Pretty Roger♕]

This is absolutely true. The majority of people who are saying they should add them as alts aren't even ARMS fans. Most of them are just people who think it's a boring choice and are grasping at anything they can to make it more interesting for themselves, even if it makes it worse for the actual fans.

This generalization is so out of place... I have seen a lot of "true fans" that like the idea of the alts and personally I would be totally fine with that and I truly care about ARMS.

It's as if someone said "people that don't like alts of other characters aren't true Smash fans, cause that's what smash does" this logic just doesn't make sense, also "true fans" isn't a real term, they are fans of something or they aren't.

 

[Cosmic77]

It's best not to hurl insults at each other period, but seriously, it's not that big of a deal.

No need to get so defensive over someone thinking we're getting alts. Their opinion doesn't dictate what we'll get, so why get upset at all?

 

[fogbadge]

No need to get so defensive over someone thinking we're getting alts. Their opinion doesn't dictate what we'll get, so why get upset at all?

i think people are more upset by people saying that they should be alts rather than thinking we will get alts

 

[Cosmic77]

i think people are more upset by people saying that they should be alts rather than thinking we will get alts

Still, it's just one opinion of many. Either come up with a counterargument for their points or ignore them entirely. Claiming that they aren't a true ARMS fan won't de-escalate the situation at all.

Personally, I think there are a few characters that should be alts if Sakurai didn't choose them as the character. I'd rather have a Ribbon Girl with two less jumps than a Ribbon Girl who's stuck in the background of whatever ARMS stage we get. People can disagree, but that's my opinion. Shouldn't make me any less of a fan than someone who bought ARMS on its release day just like I did.

 

[Sigran101]

This generalization is so out of place... I have seen a lot of "true fans" that like the idea of the alts and personally I would be totally fine with that and I truly care about ARMS.

It's as if someone said "people that don't like alts of other characters aren't true Smash fans, cause that's what smash does" this logic just doesn't make sense, also "true fans" isn't a real term, they are fans of something or they aren't.

Umm, notice how I didn't say all? And how in the next post down which you ignored I said there are definitely some ARMS fans who want alts but I more often see people who don't like arms suggesting it?

It's fine to disagree, but don't try to take the moral high ground like that.

Cosmic77 way to put words in my mouth. I never said and would never say that anyone who wants the alts isn't a true ARMS fan. That would be stupid. I said the majority of people I see argue the point OPENLY ADMIT they don't like ARMS. I'm not making any assumptions here.