Congratulations, Min Min! ARMS character(s) for Smash discussion

[meleebrawler]

To recap
Spring Man's unique features: Deflects punches (projecctiles) on ground dodge, attacks charge faster at quarter health (100%+ maybe?)
Ribbon Girl: Multiple Jumps, Optional Fast Fall

If they are DLC, I think they would be called Echos but they'd use the lesser time pressure (i.e. no deadline to get game carts pressed) to properly balance them.

Having Ribbon Girl be floaty normally but with a faster fast-fall than Link would make for an interesting character. As would giving her uniquely less laggy airdodges, but maybe that's a bit of a stretch.

Since no one seems to be reading or cares about my explanations of what constitutes an echo or not, I'll just leave this question: do you consider Young Link, Dr. Mario and Pichu to be echos even if the game doesn't describe them as such?

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Having Ribbon Girl be floaty normally but with a faster fast-fall than Link would make for an interesting character. As would giving her uniquely less laggy airdodges, but maybe that's a bit of a stretch.

Since no one seems to be reading or cares about my explanations of what constitutes an echo or not, I'll just leave this question: do you consider Young Link, Dr. Mario and Pichu to be echos even if the game doesn't describe them as such?

I think what consitute and Echo, at least in this pre-DLC stage is that they are close enough in size and weight that all combos against them work the same as they do on the parents. That way it at least halves the balancing work.

 

[Staarih]

I'm pretty sure that's not how the echo design process works. Do you honestly think Daisy was super-highly requested? She's certainly not Ridley or Simon-caliber, but they did it anyway because it made sense before anything else. Dark Samus would "not be represented in the best way" even if she wasn't an echo, because no matter what her actual power and moveset would have to be scaled down for balance. She is a mutant Metroid that uses Phazon-powered versions of Samus's tools, and that is represented just fine as an echo.


Wait, now costumes have actual gameplay differences?

Look. She could have a moveset 90% identical to Spring Man. But do you really think Sakurai is going to remove Ribbon Girl's ONE DEFINING FEATURE of multiple jumps just to cut corners? Young Link, Dr. Mario and Pichu have only slight differences in their moveset compared to their originals, but still are not considered echos anyway because they have different attributes. The only thing Chrom disproved is that their movesets have to be 1:1 with their originals.

I dunno if Ribbon Girl is any more requested than the likes of Daisy though. But yeah, I mean, the more unique characters the merrier, but seeing how Sakurai is going about with Echoes, her becoming one for Spring Man wouldn’t be a surprise and definitely a possibility. Yes, even with removing her only ”defining trait”. I’m just saying it might happen and it’s better to acknowledge it instead of having hopes way too high. Sure, I could be wrong as well. Anything goes.

Dr. Mario and the likes were introduced in a different time - they were designed to be as they are from the start with more different attributes, unlike Echoes, that we know of. Veteran status doesn’t hurt. Who knows, if they were introduced today, they might be Echoes. All speculation of course.

But anyway, it’s up to Sakurai. We can only hope he gives us an ARMS character to begin with haha!

 

[meleebrawler]

I think what consitute and Echo, at least in this pre-DLC stage is that they are close enough in size and weight that all combos against them work the same as they do on the parents. That way it at least halves the balancing work.

Doc's weight is the same as Mario's, therefore any combo that works on one is effective on the other. Still doesn't make them echoes.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Doc's weight is the same as Mario's, therefore any combo that works on one is effective on the other. Still doesn't make them echoes.

No but their air speed differs. Unless I've been misled.

 

[meleebrawler]

No but their air speed differs. Unless I've been misled.

You said combos, not escaping disadvantage.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

You said combos, not escaping disadvantage.

Isn't that all part of combos? That some characters have such rubbish air speed that they can get caught in some that others can't?

 

[meleebrawler]

Isn't that all part of combos? That some characters have such rubbish air speed that they can get caught in some that others can't?

No, you can't actually start moving in the air until your hitstun ends. What affects combo susceptibility are things that affect launch trajectory: weight, fall speed and gravity (essentially fall acceleration). Low air speed does increase the chances of getting caught in further juggles or followup combo starters, but then they're true combos with what came before.

 

[Jeanne]

Wait, now costumes have actual gameplay differences?

Didn't say that at all. Alts have different voice lines. Give Springtron different voice lines over Springmans model and now he is in the game with minimal work than making him an echo. I mean he even has the same movement animations as Springman from ARMS so why make him an echo if he'd be 99.9% like Springman.

Look. She could have a moveset 90% identical to Spring Man. But do you really think Sakurai is going to remove Ribbon Girl's ONE DEFINING FEATURE of multiple jumps just to cut corners? Young Link, Dr. Mario and Pichu have only slight differences in their moveset compared to their originals, but still are not considered echos anyway because they have different attributes. The only thing Chrom disproved is that their movesets have to be 1:1 with their originals.

I abosulutley think he would do that to Ribbon Girl considering he made Ganondorf a Falcon clone, made wolf a frankensteins monster of different character moves, Gave ness moves he dosn't use from different characters from his series, And made Dark Pit, Lucina, Dark Samus and Daisy echos despite the fact their fans say that they should be unique because they have their own moves from their original games. And if we are talking about giving people the most for the least work, Making Springman, a Springtron Alt and a Ribbon Girl Echo sounds like exactly something he would do.

 

[Koopaul]

Look it's quite simple. What counts as an echo or not is not important the point is being able to get multiple characters in the game with minimal effort. And if Sakurai wants to call them an echo or not is up to him.

With Ribbon Girl, all you have to do is give her an extra jump and make her charged punches have an electrical effect instead of a firey one.

Springtron shares all of Spring Man's animations, victory, idle, everything. So he can easily be made a costume for Spring Man complete with a different voice.

There, now you have three differenct characters from ARMS showing up in Smash.

Hell, I'd go even further and say make an Assist Trophy of Ninjara too!

 

[Quillion]

Honestly, now that we have Simon Belmont as the long-range melee fighter, we have no more need for ARMS characters.

They just can't offer anything unique now.

 

[Jeanne]

Honestly, now that we have Simon Belmont as the long-range melee fighter, we have no more need for ARMS characters.

They just can't offer anything unique now.

We should get rid of Corrin and Shulk while we're at it.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

Honestly, now that we have Simon Belmont as the long-range melee fighter, we have no more need for ARMS characters.

They just can't offer anything unique now.

Really? Then maybe we shouldn't have Echo Fighters either. Maybe we should cut the Fire Emblem characters because there's too many swords. Or maybe Simon's whip could be a great rival to ARMS. While Simon's whip has a long range, he holds it in one hand and would have to swing it. The ARMS fighters have TWO extendable arms to punch with.

 

[SmashChu]

I dunno if Ribbon Girl is any more requested than the likes of Daisy though. But yeah, I mean, the more unique characters the merrier, but seeing how Sakurai is going about with Echoes, her becoming one for Spring Man wouldn’t be a surprise and definitely a possibility. Yes, even with removing her only ”defining trait”. I’m just saying it might happen and it’s better to acknowledge it instead of having hopes way too high. Sure, I could be wrong as well. Anything goes.

Dr. Mario and the likes were introduced in a different time - they were designed to be as they are from the start with more different attributes, unlike Echoes, that we know of. Veteran status doesn’t hurt. Who knows, if they were introduced today, they might be Echoes. All speculation of course.

But anyway, it’s up to Sakurai. We can only hope he gives us an ARMS character to begin with haha!

The appeal of Ribbon Girl is that some people want ARMS characters but don't want Spring Man. Ribbon Girl alleviates that. Plus shes all over the box and promotional ads with Spring Man anyway,

Making her an Echo would make sense. ARMS characters aren't that different and are defined by their passive traits. Having Ribbon Girl jump 4 times wouldn't be that difficult especially since you don't need to have a special jump animation for it (just her normal one like she does in the game). Also, most of the arms have different variations with different colors so making a similar attack with different properties would be relatively easy.

 

[Koopaul]

I don't get why so many people dislike Spring Man. He doesn't have as flashy of a design as the rest of the cast but every fighting game has the main character seem more grounded and basic compared to the rest.

No one complains that Ryu is boring despite having a more basic design compared to guys like Blanca or M. Bison.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

I think one good reason for adding Ribbon Girl could be to add more females.

 

[Quillion]

Really? Then maybe we shouldn't have Echo Fighters either. Maybe we should cut the Fire Emblem characters because there's too many swords. Or maybe Simon's whip could be a great rival to ARMS. While Simon's whip has a long range, he holds it in one hand and would have to swing it. The ARMS fighters have TWO extendable arms to punch with.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

There is no fundamental difference between whipping and stretchy arms in terms of hitboxes. ARMS characters are doomed to be ripoffs of the Belmonts.

Echoes are good because they are explicitly based upon other fighters, but out-and-out ripoffs won't work.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

Stretchy arms are ripoffs of whips? Other than the long range, I don't see much of a comparison. In fact, you'd might as well call the Belmonts a ripoff of Indiana Jones with the way they use their whips. Can you even compare Indiana Jones to Reed Richards? And besides, a fighter with extendable arms as part of his body could get much faster long range combos than a guy who swings a heavy chain whip. And didn't Zero Suit Samus also have a whip in Brawl? Ivysaur has Vine Whip. Link had a hookshot. Well, those kinds of whips were kind of short anyway. But two arms are not one whip. And the ARMS fighter's moveset wouldn't be even close to the Belmonts.

 

[8-peacock-8]

The different weapons of the ARMS characters that would be used for the moveset violently disagrees with them somehow being rip offs of the Belmonts.

Plus the ways they function are nothing like whips. They extend forward and depending on the weapon, thy go further.

 

[Quillion]

Stretchy arms are ripoffs of whips? Other than the long range, I don't see much of a comparison. In fact, you'd might as well call the Belmonts a ripoff of Indiana Jones with the way they use their whips. Can you even compare Indiana Jones to Reed Richards? And besides, a fighter with extendable arms as part of his body could get much faster long range combos than a guy who swings a heavy chain whip. And didn't Zero Suit Samus also have a whip in Brawl? Ivysaur has Vine Whip. Link had a hookshot. Well, those kinds of whips were kind of short anyway. But two arms are not one whip. And the ARMS fighter's moveset wouldn't be even close to the Belmonts.

Their movesets may be different, but there's no conceivable way that their playstyles will be different. The latter is more important.

How would you feel if we got another somewhat speedy, combo heavy sword user when we already have Marth? (Lucina doesn't count on grounds of being an Echo)

 

[8-peacock-8]

Their movesets may be different, but there's no conceivable way that their playstyles will be different. The latter is more important.

How would you feel if we got another somewhat speedy, combo heavy sword user when we already have Marth? (Lucina doesn't count on grounds of being an Echo)

I've played ARMS and I can tell you they wouldn't function the same way. Plus the actual weapons of the ARMS ability would make them function differently as well.

And we did. His name was Roy. We got him the same time as Marth in Melee.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Their movesets may be different, but there's no conceivable way that their playstyles will be different. The latter is more important.

How would you feel if we got another somewhat speedy, combo heavy sword user when we already have Marth? (Lucina doesn't count on grounds of being an Echo)

Let me get this straight, we're in the series that had moveset clone characters to the point that they gave them their own brand and you think that "somewhat similar playstyle" is going to be a problem?

 

[fogbadge]

well i suppose the arms fighters are known for using axes, crosses and holy water

 

[Quillion]

Let me get this straight, we're in the series that had moveset clone characters to the point that they gave them their own brand and you think that "somewhat similar playstyle" is going to be a problem?

Yes, because at least with Echoes, you know what you're getting because they're explicitly intended to be similar.

But if two characters have different movesets but ultimately have the same playstyle, there's no point.

Why do you think Ganondorf only got three sword moves? Because if his whole moveset was replaced, he'd just be another Ike.

 

[xNaz]

I doubt many people deny the probability of one of these dudes getting in as DLC down the line

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Yes, because at least with Echoes, you know what you're getting because they're explicitly intended to be similar.

But if two characters have different movesets but ultimately have the same playstyle, there's no point.

Why do you think Ganondorf only got three sword moves? Because if his whole moveset was replaced, he'd just be another Ike.

You are grossly over simplifying things.
We got two "I dunno, Ninja stuff" movesets in the game with similar focus on high movement speed, fast strikes and both with moves that teleport.
Guess what, people like them and they play differently despite having the same niche.

And even if they occupy the same role, people won't care. Look at Capcom who said it was ok that Mega Man wasn't in MVC3 because Arthur had the same function. People were livid. And then they didn't learn their lesson for MVC: I when they said that Ultron's Air Dashes meant he could funtionally replace Magneto.

This is a crossover game first and foremost. And they're not gonna drop a character for mechanic's sake (technical limitations sure, not mechanics.)

 

[GoombaSSB]

First of all, let me say I am in on Arms in Smash. But the main point of my message: I saw a cool idea on Facebook in reference to the Springman vs Ribbongirl argument. Basically, what it said is that why can't we have Springman plus alts for a few other of the characters like Junior has Alts for the Koopalings. I really love this idea. Mainly because if Arms got a rep; I know it wouldn't be my girl Lola Pop, and to me that's tragic.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

First of all, let me say I am in on Arms in Smash. But the main point of my message: I saw a cool idea on Facebook in reference to the Springman vs Ribbongirl argument. Basically, what it said is that why can't we have Springman plus alts for a few other of the characters like Junior has Alts for the Koopalings. I really love this idea. Mainly because if Arms got a rep; I know it wouldn't be my girl Lola Pop, and to me that's tragic.

I don't like the thing about the Koopalings and Alph as alts, especially when Echo Fighters exist. I sure hope there isn't any alt characters for the newcomers. And besides, each ARMS character would have their own animations and personality, so they'd hardly work as alts for Spring Man. Byte & Bark is a two-in-one fighter like Ice Climbers and Rosalina & Luma so that would be impossible for him to work like Spring Man. Twintelle uses her hair, so sharing animations with Spring Man would be awkward and glitchy. Lola Pop can inflate like a balloon. Alt characters just change aesthetics and nothing more.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I just had a thought.

Nintendo's online service is going live this month so do you think ARMS will get any extra content to make the deal sweeter?

I'm thinking they may give the game a subscriber exclusive discount and run another test punch.

 

[Koopaul]

There was someone talking about whips vs stretchy arms? The key different is that arms stretch and a whip doesn't. The whip has to always go the same length every time where as a stretchy arm can control it's length. And I think that should be the key feature of an ARMS fighter. Being able to control the length of your attacks.

I think the longer you hold the atrack button, the longer your attack reaches. However, your attack becomes slower as a result. So an ARMS fighter in Smash would be the master of spacing.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

But Sakurai still said Simon has the longest range in the game, meaning ARMS can't stretch further than his whip. So if the punches are also slow, that's a major disadvantage.

 

[fogbadge]

But Sakurai still said Simon has the longest range in the game, meaning ARMS can't stretch further than his whip. So if the punches are also slow, that's a major disadvantage.

doesnt count them out

 

[Guybrush20X6]

But Sakurai still said Simon has the longest range in the game, meaning ARMS can't stretch further than his whip. So if the punches are also slow, that's a major disadvantage.

Also said the same of Mii Gunners before Corrin and Corrin before they explicitly used him to show that Simon has more range.

I think ARMS characters will be DLC but nothing about Simon or Richter invalidates them.

 

[meleebrawler]

Also said the same of Mii Gunners before Corrin and Corrin before they explicitly used him to show that Simon has more range.

I think ARMS characters will be DLC but nothing about Simon or Richter invalidates them.

And he specifically said longest average reach in melee attacks. You could surmise an ARMS fighter would have a good number of low-range brawler moves mixed in with the extreme-range ones if you really didn't want to violate that statement.

 

[Knight Dude]

Spring Man would be my choice. Though I think he'd probably DLC, unless Sakurai got early info about Spring Man and ARMS as a whole.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

A CoroCoro leak had revealed that there would be 108 stages instead of the 103 that was stated in the August direct. If that's true, I hope Spring Stadium could be one of the five extra stages that comes with Spring Man and Ribbon Girl.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

The creator of ARMS expressed his surprise when he was asked if ARMS characters would be in Smash. I'm guessing either he's keeping things under cover or he was never approached by Sakurai.

 

[SmashChu]

First of all, let me say I am in on Arms in Smash. But the main point of my message: I saw a cool idea on Facebook in reference to the Springman vs Ribbongirl argument. Basically, what it said is that why can't we have Springman plus alts for a few other of the characters like Junior has Alts for the Koopalings. I really love this idea. Mainly because if Arms got a rep; I know it wouldn't be my girl Lola Pop, and to me that's tragic.

ARMS characters have different traits even if they use the same arms. I expect if they add ARMS, they'll do Spring Man with Ribbon Girl as an echo.

 

[MBRedboy31]

There was someone talking about whips vs stretchy arms? The key different is that arms stretch and a whip doesn't. The whip has to always go the same length every time where as a stretchy arm can control it's length. And I think that should be the key feature of an ARMS fighter. Being able to control the length of your attacks.

I think the longer you hold the atrack button, the longer your attack reaches. However, your attack becomes slower as a result. So an ARMS fighter in Smash would be the master of spacing.

Another way they could make it be different is by making it so the longer ranged punches curve if you hold a direction during the attack, like in ARMS (which is similar to the angled whips, but not the same, as a curved punch takes up more total space but doesn't reach as far in the direction you originally sent the punch in.)

If they really wanted to, they could make their aerial attacks really distinctive by having their punches not follow the movement of the character once used (i.e. you use fair, then you fastfall, the glove remains traveling straight at the height you started the attack at rather than descending along with you.) This would make it hard for them to approach but would allow them to cover a lot of aerial space.

 

[Veggi]

I kind of worry that by making the focus of the thread on too many characters it makes the thread title have less personality when people are scrolling down the list. I feel like it may also impact our ability to show up on fan polls as well and seem like a serious contender. My perception of Smash popularity is that when people see a character rated high on fan polls, it causes their popularity to snowball as more people check them out and start thinking of them more as possible characters. Much like an election, I feel that when we have too many candidates it makes our audience too split up. Like if people are voting for 5 different ARMS characters, then I feel like it's unlikely any of them will show up much on "top 10" or "top 20" lists. I think that Spring Man is the one we should focus on and I think it's kind of silly to expect any other character from ARMS to get in before him.

Of course, this is just my perception of how things work so I could be wrong.