Conditioning

[Zone]

Conditioning

Definition in accordance to Melee: To condition your opponent to behave a certain way based upon previous actions. Most people would relate to this as Mind games.

Reasons for Post: At Pound V, and at a other tournaments I noticed a ton of people not really trying to apply this against me. Or falling into my conditioning traps so easily. So I just want to use this thread as a reminder to those who already know. And to those who don't consider it enough, or to those who never thought about it perhaps.

NOTE: I DO KNOW THAT NOT ALL PEOPLE REACT THIS WAY. THESE METHODS HAVE EVEN LESS CHANCE OF WORKING AGAINST PEOPLE WHO DON'T THINK. YOU CANNOT CONDITION A MIND THAT ISN'T THINKING OF WAYS TO GET OUT OF PUNISHMENT OR DOING THE PUNISHING.




Most conditioning methods are repeated at least twice(sometimes once will raise the level of awareness you want to take place), to give your opponent a deception in pattern. Most people tend to think, "Oh this worked as a good counter to his attack, i'll keep doing it." or vice versa, "Oh He responded the wrong way to my attack, I'll keep doing it since it worked on him."

Allow me to give some examples of conditioning, so you can think about this the next time you play.

Captain Falcon vs Marth:
Let's say you're Falcon, and you're really good at getting in between marth's attack, but not good enough to garantee a hit, cuz he gets his shield up often. You knee his shield, he tries to shield grab you, you punish with jabs after Knee. Lets say this same scenario happens again a little bit later. Same effect the Marth thinks maybe he miss timed so he goes for it again, and gets punished by your jabs after knee again. Ok, more than likely you conditioned the marth to stay shielded after your knee. So Next time, you jump in and knee his shield, You will now instead grab immediately after your l-cancel. Because the Marth has become scared/aware of your ability to punish him when he tries to grab after knee.

Example of a conditioning method happening only in one move...

Marth vs Falco:

I'd say most people instantly become aware of marth's counter when they are falco. Once they are punished by it once when they approach with a laser. This will condition falco to be more careful in approaching. which will give you spacing possibilities you might not have had before. Perhaps now you can corner the falco between you and the edge, because he's not as prone to approach you because you countered his previous approach.

Zelda vs Anybody:

Zelda's FAIR, and BAIR are so powerful. Once you land 3-4 of these suckers anytime you jump off the ground your opponents start shielding in fear. which gives Zelda alot of conditioning options. This is how Zelda lands her grabs, and shield pokes. She has to put fear into their opponent of the kicks. conditioning them to shield when they believe they will get kicked.

the tomahawk: I believe DJ Nintendo coined this term. Where people empty hop into grabs, is also a conditioning practice. Because, it's not totally wrong to expect an aerial when someone jumps at you, which is why players are able to land these empty hop grabs.


Please people remember to think about these things when you play. I see alot of patterns that people shouldn't be repeating just because they believe they are "more safe" Such as the first example of falcon doing jabs after knee. alot of falcons just keep doing it cuz they believe it's the only way to protect themselves from a shield grab, when in reality they can sneak in their own grab once they condition their opponent. (why Gentlemen a shield, when you can grab?)



I know this seems really simple and I feel like I'm telling people what they already know. But I think a large number of people need a reminder.

 

[SpaceFalcon]

what place did you get at pound 5?

 

[Zone]

what place did you get at pound 5?

lol, Round 2 pools, with Tope/Zhu in it.

Just because I play Zelda and i'm not technically consistent doesn't mean i'm bad at reading patterns/ settting up openings. I feel like you're trying to say I have no say in this matter by asking such a question.

If you're not then my bad :D <33

 

[Hydro_Smasher]

I love this thread, not enough people understand the power you can do with reading.

 

[t3h Icy]

I love this thread, not enough people understand the power you can do with reading.

That's because people are dumb.

 

[Zone]

That's because people are dumb.

I'm not so sure if it's so much as "Dumb". More like they play it so casually with friends that they develop patterns to beat "friends" who also develop patterns. and they become satisfied with their play style because they are able to go even with their rivals (friends most of the time, when we talk about area.) And it's a subconscious thing I think.

I would wanna say most people are smart enough to know and get this concept. But they forget it easily when they play friendlies way too much, and their "this usually works for me, so Imma keep doing it." Mindset gets stuck there.

 

[Mooo]

I would wanna say most people are smart enough to know and get this concept. But they forget it easily when they play friendlies way too much, and their "this usually works for me, so Imma keep doing it." Mindset gets stuck there.

That's me.
I need to get good immediately.

 

[Black_jo]

I would wanna say most people are smart enough to know and get this concept. But they forget it easily when they play friendlies way too much, and their "this usually works for me, so Imma keep doing it." Mindset gets stuck there.

It kinda makes sense though. Why would you stop doing something that works on someone. That's why the player must go to smashfests, tournaments and play other people than his friends I guess

 

[keeper]

This is what players like Forward and Ken used to be known to do. It's not the newest concept, it's probably just faded with the new school tech oriented playstyles.

 

[Cactuar]

I had an interesting conversation with darkrain about conditioning opponents after Event 52.

Its pretty standard stuff for old school players.

 

[Bones0]

It kinda makes sense though. Why would you stop doing something that works on someone. That's why the player must go to smashfests, tournaments and play other people than his friends I guess

You should definitely keep doing it if it keeps working, but I think he's mostly talking about relying on a single tactic that only works half of the time instead of using multiple tactics to increase your success rate beyond 50%. Most players that are at least average in skill won't fall for the same stuff more than a few times. Some people play each other all the time, and they end up getting content that they go even with the other person with their current play style.

I only have one person to practice against so I am constantly try to increase the number of options I utilize so I don't become predictable to him. We play Falco vs. Marth 90% of the time, so even though I can come at him SHLing and nairing most of the time, he frequently counters or powershields -> grab. If I didn't mix it up, I would probably still win due to other factors, but I can win by greater margins when I mix up SHLing and SHFFLing nairs with empty SHs -> grab and dash dances.

 

[MasterShake]

I'm in the same situation as Bones0. My roommate is Falco and I'm Marth. We constantly go back and forth while devising new options and strategies so we don't become predictable. Often times for a while one of us will win a majority of the matches, and a day or so later the one who lost will think of a strategy to beat the other strategy, and the cycle continues. I think it's really good to do stuff like that.

Reading this topic made me think of something else. At WCSL a long long time ago, I overheard a player say something like "Man, Falcomist ***** me. I did stuff that I KNEW wouldn't work, but I did it anyway." And everytime I friendly people, I see it. Fox going for uairs on characters who can just jump out. If they baited the jump they would still get the kill. Falcos who dash attack aimlessly into a shield after a laser. Falcons who go for a knee even after they missed the L cancel. Players need to actively think and recognize situations. Don't underestimate the power of not attacking, especially in a situation where you know you would have missed.

 

[Zone]

Yeah what bones said you understood me

 

[Acryte]

true, also there is always much subtle conditioning with the opponent's shield. Good players always spot and manipulate the opponent's shielding habits, regarding how and when they like to shield vs if they only shield at the proper times/spacing. Every time you pressure and force shield on them you've reduced their options then you're able to anticipate and force them to pick from the select OoS options available. then you can notice and start to read their habits in different situations. You can learn how cool they are under pressure, and how aggro/defensive they are. If they have a bad habit of rolling under pressure, if they like to wd back which will tell you how safe/unsafe certain approaches will be, such as with falco can I come in with dair or should I opt more for nairs and lasers etc.

I'd say shield conditioning is a big thing though in smash. and yea air conditioning on taking and receiving is huge.

 

[_wzrd]

I do this. BUT I'm not good enough yet to be constantly applying it onto the various situations that come up.

Like I can actively be conditioning their OOS game so they jump or shieldgrab, but then I have a hard time keeping tabs on their teching for example.

or sometimes I'll be kinda on it with everything but **** up my punishes.

lol I have a ways to go

 

[Smasher89]

This is something that was more used before, and is more effective then regular "safe play" due to it´s effectiveness to get into the other players head, it´s a reason why I think a few of the old school players were in their days better then some of todays top placing players.

It´s good to see that there actually is a few players using this stuff at the top, even though it should probably be a dominating strategy if there is a player capable at using this at it fullest like Ken back in the days did.

 

[gm jack]

I suspect a lot of newer top level player are better at dealing with conditioning and are less predictable than the people ken played. While it still has it's place, people can now react faster with more options than ever before, so it's far harder to "force" a person into doing something on command.

 

[Acryte]

mango is very aware of habits and you can see him baiting quite often, most obviously when he baits rolls though. If mango gets someone near the edge he will often dash dance etc and just sit and wait to see if they will eventually roll, its funny. More people gotta take a page out of the shiz book. DON'T ROLL MAN lol.

 

[Smasher89]

I suspect a lot of newer top level player are better at dealing with conditioning and are less predictable than the people ken played. While it still has it's place, people can now react faster with more options than ever before, so it's far harder to "force" a person into doing something on command.

Watched matches Ek played a few months ago, and the tricks does still work, you just gotta know where to hit them.

 

[CloneHat]

If you don't do things like this, then you get techchased and edgeguarded (in short, read). You could call it "mixing it up: to your advantage".

 

[Zone]

It's more than just a simply mixing up. I do mix ups to remain unpredictable, I use conditioning to try and force a particular reaction to open more options. W/o instilling fear of the foot I would probably never land a grab with Zelda. I can't just throw out her grab as a mix up (to my advantage) I have to convince myself that the person has changed behavior based on my actions so that I may now have access to more options.

 

[Strife]

It's more than just a simply mixing up. I do mix ups to remain unpredictable, I use conditioning to try and force a particular reaction to open more options. W/o instilling fear of the foot I would probably never land a grab with Zelda. I can't just throw out her grab as a mix up (to my advantage) I have to convince myself that the person has changed behavior based on my actions so that I may now have access to more options.

Is this really so much different from adapting?

 

[Flonomenalz]

Is this really so much different from adapting?

it depends on how you look at it. also, zone, I think ur opinion is a bit biased considering you play zelda. as a zelda player, you can't throw out grabs as mixups because the punishment >> the reward. You have to know that you have conditioned your opponent into you getting a tomahawk or something, instead of a character like falco that can throw out empty hop grabs because his grab is a lot better than zeldas.

imo

 

[Strong Badam]

I had an interesting conversation with darkrain about conditioning opponents after Event 52.

Its pretty standard stuff for old school players.

Pretty much. It's how I've thought of high level play for over a year now.

 

[Smasher89]

Is this really so much different from adapting?

Yes, since it´s a form of making the opponent adapt to your play in maybe an extra clear way, but it´s actually a trick to make them more predictable due to "your bad variations".

 

[DJ Nintendo]

I had an interesting conversation with darkrain about conditioning opponents after Event 52.

Its pretty standard stuff for old school players.

Exactly. Definitely standard. Pretty much all I do is think lol.

 

[Zone]

it depends on how you look at it. also, zone, I think ur opinion is a bit biased considering you play zelda. as a zelda player, you can't throw out grabs as mixups because the punishment >> the reward. You have to know that you have conditioned your opponent into you getting a tomahawk or something, instead of a character like falco that can throw out empty hop grabs because his grab is a lot better than zeldas.

imo

It's not biased. I know that as a Zelda player my grab is bad. That's the whole reason i used that as an example of why Mixups aren't exactly the same as conditioning. I have to use a a tactical pattern to force behavior so that I can land something that is highly rewarding for Zelda. a Grab on a fast faller is GOLD. Grab on shiek is Gold too(if there are platforms.) I don't play exclusively Zelda. In most locals I go all Fox/Falcon. Recently learning a lot of shiek for the Falcon match up against Zelda.

I'm saying that Throwing out my grabs when they wiff moves is a result of conditioning from punished kicks out of shield or whatever. And when they enter that proximity range. I have conditioned them to shield I will get a grab. It's not a mix up for Zelda.

I was just pointing out that Mixup does not equal Conditioning is all. Mixups is to keep the opponent in the dark about what you are going to do. where as conditioning is doing bad patterns or purposely doing patterns to get a strategy change out of your opponent then you quickly punish the change once it takes effect.

I played smash all day yesterday.... I never had to do so much thinking in my life lol. My brain was getting tired of thinking so hard. I felt like I was taking an exam from all the seriouslies i played.

Yes, since it´s a form of making the opponent adapt to your play in maybe an extra clear way, but it´s actually a trick to make them more predictable due to "your bad variations".

what this guy said.

It's cause and effect. your conditioning is the cause, while your opponent adapting is the effect. But in this case you are doing something intentionally. If YOU were adapting. That would mean, you're the one trying to figure out the opponents next move. What you do after you condition them is obviously called adapting(Cuz obviously your adapting to the style you were expecting to happen from your conditioning). But the process before hand is different.


lol, I think we all know this has been done forever. I thought I made sure to make it clear that I know everyone knows about this. I just think people need to think about it MORE. I was just trying to help re-bring realization to people of what I saw a lot of people not including into their play.

I remember seeing a thread about something I already knew. (I forgot what aspect of the game it was) but I clearly remember, forgetting to do it on a regular basis, So the thread helped snap me back to what I should have been doing.

 

[Strong Badam]

Zone: your opinion is inherently biased. that's part of what an opinion is.
Flonomenalz: bias isn't a bad thing in a discussion where people have varying opinions; what matters is your ability to support your opinion, which Zone has done well =P

 

[Strong Badam]

Bad double post is bad but here's some insight from Super Street Fighter IV that I find easily applicable here:

By definition, throws and overheads (and technically, unblockables) are the only things that will beat an opponent that is only crouch blocking. But don't look at a throw as simply the throw itself. You can use a throw to train the opponent to expect a throw at a certain time, then hit them when they try to tech. Using throws and overheads is the only way to open the opponent up to being hit by other things.

Essentially, you use an option that works in a situation a few times, your opponent comes to expect it, then you do something else that beats their counter to your original option.

 

[Smasher89]

Bad double post is bad but here's some insight from Super Street Fighter IV that I find easily applicable here:

Essentially, you use an option that works in a situation a few times, your opponent comes to expect it, then you do something else that beats their counter to your original option.

It's probably not neccesary it works the first times, even though it would certainly be more effective since it gets more punishes, as long as it works atleast that one time it matters, it´s good enough.