COMPLETELY VANILLA Mafia | Game Over

[BoomFrog]

So you were trying to nail them or clear them instaneously basically. Like I said, I get it. But I don’t think anyone else did. But overall didn’t agree with it.

I did get it. And I think Xivii was town motivated in doing it. But like you said, I don't agree with it in principle.

 

[osieorb18]

You against him feels TvT. I understand the angle Xivii is representing cause I see what he was going for. It wasn’t scum angled, and it wasn’t cultural imo either. He was trying to trap you into an early claim to sort you one way or the other and I don’t think that was scummy, just townopportunistic.

I think there's too much wine for it not to be open to either. Xivii is clearly playing an up-front controlling style this game. It makes sense. He's one of the strongest players in the thread as either alignment. But look closer at the meat of his posts. It's not as simple as just one tell.

 

[osieorb18]

My list would be:

Somi-Mercuri
Up-Xivii
Osie
Frozen
Boom

Is this a PoE or a readlist? (Guessing the former.)

 

[BoomFrog]

Actually, flat out angleshooting is rulebreaking. There's no need to accuse people of rulebreaking in the thread. If you feel that someone is not being productive, that's a reasonable accusation. If you feel they're breaking rules, talk to the host. Don't bring it up in thread. This has been your friendly local rules guru, fluttering away to finish reading the thread.

I don't think anything was rule breaking. Maybe angleshooting is a stricter term in your parlence then in mine. I think there is a grey area of unsporting but not rule breaking in any system.

 

[BoomFrog]

Is this a PoE or a readlist? (Guessing the former.)

it's a claim order. Top claims first.

 

[Chaco]

Order of claims.

UP and Xivii need to go earlier than later due to their involvement.

Somi is because I think they slipped. Mercuri because of lack of content.

Boom is biggest town feel atm.

 

[osieorb18]

I don't think anything was rule breaking. Maybe angleshooting is a stricter term in your parlence then in mine. I think there is a grey area of unsporting but not rule breaking in any system.

Meh.

it's a claim order. Top claims first.

Yeah, so more like a PoE. Scum at the top.

 

[Chaco]

Talk to me about why you feel Xivii is town. Have they left their admittedly relatively wide scumrange so far? Are they naturally progressing reads or poking around and trying to see what sticks?

Xivii is kindve a throw against everyone until they build a case type person imo

 

[Chaco]

The last post I made responds to your previous I think, Osie. He did similar things in UPs game. I’m basing off of that one instance TvT though. Overall I haven’t sorted Xivii though. If Somi is scum though, Xivii is most likely partner rn.

 

[osieorb18]

Order of claims.

UP and Xivii need to go earlier than later due to their involvement.

Somi is because I think they slipped. Mercuri because of lack of content.

Boom is biggest town feel atm.

Yeah, I'm still vehemently against a mass claim. Little to no value shown as of yet.

Can you point me to the slip? Mercuri is low content usually. It's what they do with their content that matters more. Somi is high in my PoE, and fits well on a team with Xivii.

 

[Chaco]

Hold on I’ll get the ordered one out of where I showed DP, one sec

 

[Chaco]

All right, let's go.

That's a bit of a risky statement to make right out of the gate. What if you're wrong about it?

To be fair, everyone is special (so noone is), but in a scenario where the rest of us were mostly vanilla, I think this would've been a PR slip.

Look into the top quote for context closer, Osie. Second is a clear contradiction imo.

 

[osieorb18]

Xivii is kindve a throw against everyone until they build a case type person imo

No? Besides, it's at the point in the game state where I expect a real case to have started to form from Xivii and he has nothing. He's still just faffing about and trying for a D1 massclaim in a game which we know has roles. If you ISO Xivii, very little looks good, just a lot of neutral at best and more scummy. If it looks like a duck, it smells like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, maybe it's a duck?

 

[osieorb18]

Look into the top quote for context closer, Osie. Second is a clear contradiction imo.

I repeat your own statement back to you though. Context. You have two relatively new players both working out whether the game is role madness or not. Is it a possible slip of mindset in the second post? Yes. Is it a likely contradiction between the two posts? Nah, it isn't strong enough on which to base a definite read.

 

[Chaco]

Progression is to why Id speak otherwise, and I have no idea the amount of experience Somi has. Lesser experience would be more indicative of a slip would it not be?

And as far as Xivii goes, like I said I still need to sort him. I haven’t looked at him in ISO yet, but I’ll get to it later this evening. He has spoken a lot, and some points have been lacking, but he had genuine concern about DPs posts and I can see the logical trail there. He’s always a tempo setter in the past two games I’ve played with him, and he’s sticking true to that right now. Which is why at the moment I want to see how it progresses. I tend to gut and pick up on slips, and not really with style plays. So with someone like Xivii I would let them dig their own grave with saying so much if they aren’t town, leaves to large a trail near endgame to cover up. So I can’t be sold on Xivii just yet unless something new arises. But atm I see his mindset to a degree, and don’t lean either way overall. But I do feel you v him was TvT from the feel.

 

[osieorb18]

Progression is to why Id speak otherwise, and I have no idea the amount of experience Somi has. Lesser experience would be more indicative of a slip would it not be?

And as far as Xivii goes, like I said I still need to sort him. I haven’t looked at him in ISO yet, but I’ll get to it later this evening. He has spoken a lot, and some points have been lacking, but he had genuine concern about DPs posts and I can see the logical trail there. He’s always a tempo setter in the past two games I’ve played with him, and he’s sticking true to that right now. Which is why at the moment I want to see how it progresses. I tend to gut and pick up on slips, and not really with style plays. So with someone like Xivii I would let them dig their own grave with saying so much if they aren’t town, leaves to large a trail near endgame to cover up. So I can’t be sold on Xivii just yet unless something new arises. But atm I see his mindset to a degree, and don’t lean either way overall. But I do feel you v him was TvT from the feel.

I mean, he wasn't even pushing me. If anything, he's strongly hinted townreads or TMI. You think he's town who reads me as town, is being hard scumread by me, and he limp-wristedly is shrugging it off, while in a pretense of engagement with my posts? That's not a townie response to a townread pushing them.

 

[Xivii]

I repeat your own statement back to you though. Context. You have two relatively new players both working out whether the game is role madness or not. Is it a possible slip of mindset in the second post? Yes. Is it a likely contradiction between the two posts? Nah, it isn't strong enough on which to base a definite read.

What makes you think somi is new?

 

[osieorb18]

I’m going to sleep on a FrozenFlame/Xivii scumteam and do some carnival tricks in my sleep.

This is one of my core considerations right now. Whether it's Xivii+Frozen or one of the two plus one of somi/mercuri remains to be seen. Barring a really bad townread on Chaco/Poyzin/BoomFrog, and I think my townlean on Darkpit as LHF is fair given VTR Mafia.

 

[osieorb18]

What makes you think somi is new?

I believe they implied as much in a signup or social thread prior to this game. They also give off beginner/intermediate energy. I know it to be the case for Darkpit since I hosted one of his most recent games.

 

[Chaco]

I mean, he wasn't even pushing me. If anything, he's strongly hinted townreads or TMI. You think he's town who reads me as town, is being hard scumread by me, and he limp-wristedly is shrugging it off, while in a pretense of engagement with my posts? That's not a townie response to a townread pushing them.

It’s typical of Xivii though.

 

[Chaco]

I misread Xivii badly last game for pushing things, much like you are right now, that I inherently thought were anti town. And it appears overwhelmingly so, that’s why you see Boom liking my posts about how Xivii throw at whatever. It’s just what I saw out of him last game, so I’m not seeking to push something I vastly tunneled last game. I’m saying his angle on you was a town angle to push, right or wrong it was a town push, imo. I’m not looking in to the other stuff currently because that’s enough for me at this conjecture to not pursue Xivii when he’s difficult to read. I spent two Day phases tunneling him before due to the way he plays, and I think I have a better understanding of what to look for and what not to now regarding his slot.

 

[Chaco]

With that being said, I have not sorted him. But Xivii is not a D1 yeet. You’ll have way to much traction trying to pursue that, and if it’s nothing other than look at his content, that’s not enough for his slot. He isn’t a typical town player at all.

 

[Chaco]

If anything your push is only helping me sort you as town more, cause trust me, I get the frustration.

 

[osieorb18]

Progression is to why Id speak otherwise, and I have no idea the amount of experience Somi has. Lesser experience would be more indicative of a slip would it not be?

Missed responding to this. Lesser experience can mean a higher slip likelihood, but in context it's not a strong enough slip for the experience to swing it in that direction. The slip is light enough that the experience factor suggests Hanlon's Razor.

 

[osieorb18]

It’s typical of Xivii though.

As town? Wat? Like, you could argue it's typical for him to shrug things off but shrugging things off while in pretense of heightened interaction with the person? Pretty much only shrugging towards the inconvenient fact that he's being scumread? You're suggesting a lot of subtlety to a degree that I sorta want to bring out the other logical razor's edge, Ockham.

 

[osieorb18]

I misread Xivii badly last game for pushing things, much like you are right now, that I inherently thought were anti town. And it appears overwhelmingly so, that’s why you see Boom liking my posts about how Xivii throw at whatever. It’s just what I saw out of him last game, so I’m not seeking to push something I vastly tunneled last game. I’m saying his angle on you was a town angle to push, right or wrong it was a town push, imo. I’m not looking in to the other stuff currently because that’s enough for me at this conjecture to not pursue Xivii when he’s difficult to read. I spent two Day phases tunneling him before due to the way he plays, and I think I have a better understanding of what to look for and what not to now regarding his slot.

I have several games of experience with reading Xivii. I'm not just tunnelling him for playstyle. There's a distinct level of agenda to his play here which is not a townie approach.

 

[osieorb18]

With that being said, I have not sorted him. But Xivii is not a D1 yeet. You’ll have way to much traction trying to pursue that, and if it’s nothing other than look at his content, that’s not enough for his slot. He isn’t a typical town player at all.

Yeah, and I'm not just using typical tells. Also, I'm not entirely convinced that there's too little traction on Xivii. Specifically, about half of the thread seems to not have him as a townread.

I might be down to compromise on FrozenFlame or somi. Mercuri in a pinch, though from probably half a dozen games of theirs, I know that they are usually LHF. I am firmly convinced that Xivii's play this far is overwhelmingly the place to go. With 9 players in the game, if I have a D1 PoE which is less than half the players and with comfortable sorting of said PoE, I'm either extremely wrong on a townread, which is relatively unlikely outside of yourself given the amount of additional personality, experience, and pseudo-meta info I have to work with beyond macro-micro, gamestate, and tone reads, or scum is definitely in those 4, which is a small enough PoE to game-solve.

I believe you're town and am down to work together towards sorting the likeliest part of the PoE of FF, Xivii, somi. But if you're wanting to convince me that somi is the only scum in that group, that's going to be a hard sell. If you're wanting to convince me that a somi elimination gives the most info out of that group, that's still a moderately hard sell.

 

[osieorb18]

Keep in mind that Hanlon's Razor doesn't apply as well to Xivii due to skill level and due to the fact that Ockham's has to apply first.

Also, if somi or someone else contradicts my experience read of somi to an Advanced+ player, that pushes up the likelihood of somi/??? teams, but doesn't really lower the likelihood of ??? being Xivii or FrozenFlame.

 

[osieorb18]

I'll be back in about 10-11 hours if able. If not, assume that I was abducted by aliens and/or am asleep.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Votecount 1-7

[1] mərcurı : Boomfrog
[1] somitomi : Chaco
[1] Darkpit54: Xivii
[1] #HBC FrozeηFlame : UtopianPoyzin
[1] UtopianPoyzin : #HBC FrozeηFlame
[1] Xivii : osieorb18

[3] Not Voting: mərcurı, Darkpit54, somitomi

With 9 alive, it takes 5 votes to eliminate.

Day 1 Deadline is: 11 PM UTC on Saturday August 8th

mərcurı was sent a 'prod' earlier today.
somitomi was sent a precautionary 'prod' earlier today.

 

[Darkpit54]

I believe you're town and am down to work together towards sorting the likeliest part of the PoE of FF, Xivii, somi. But if you're wanting to convince me that somi is the only scum in that group, that's going to be a hard sell. If you're wanting to convince me that a somi elimination gives the most info out of that group, that's still a moderately hard sell.

I think Xivii 1000% gives the most info out of this PoE, probably second only to UP out of all of the players. I'm still not entirely sold that he's the play, but I'll try to reread his ISO later

I think I really want a Somi claim. I still don't really want to massclaim, but I think a Somi fullclaim could give us a lot of insight into his slot

 

[osieorb18]

Insert obligatory "This voting pattern always eliminates a wolf" joke.

 

[BoomFrog]

Fyi Xivii I do plan to address your case on me. But osi has sucked up all the attention at the moment. I'm also pretty busy today so it might come tomorrow.

osieorb18 Thanks for the quick (and decisive) catch-up. Somi has played a lot of forum mafia actually, but they don't have a good grasp of game setup stuff usually and are relatively low engagement these days.

Tell me more about Mercuri. Do you think they're last post (criticizing making a claim order) was alignment indicative?

 

[somitomi]

Holy smokes, lot of pages since I last checked in.
I'm gonna try sum up my impressions, although I feel like it's all based on gutfeels and nothing at this point.
Suspicious
UtopianPoyzin
Xivii
DarkPit
Osieorb (neutral-ish)
FrozenFlame
BoomFrog
Chaco
Cool

Null: mercuri (how is this play not grounds for a policy yeet?)
At this point, UP feels like the best candidate, they have been going back and forth on quite a lot of things, and their posts have this "I'm just kidding, or am I?" vibe that makes it hard to tell if they're serious (and easy for them to back out of things). Overall this doesn't seem like it's helping town.

Also, I was thinking about the whole speed hammer thing last game and I realized that the reason vote analysis works at end of day is because votes are only serious when a yeet is a realistic possibility. So I propose we make yeets always a real possibility. We pick one person to be "the judge", then everyone else votes with the intention of getting someone to L-1. Then the judge decides to hammer or give up judgeship. If they decide to not hammer then we have to pick someone new to be judge and someone new to bring to L-1. And we do that until we get a yeet.

What if nobody gets to L-1 before the day runs out? I think D1 votes are generally all over the place and I don't see how we could stop that from happening.

I believe we are mass claiming. Please claim in your next post if you don't mind.

Really? I just skimmed the thread a second time to see where that agreement was reached, but I don't see it. Seems like there's still some argument over whether or not some of the roles actually do something. The fact that you pushed Osie to claim right when they jumped in just doesn't sit well with me honestly.

Also, if somi or someone else contradicts my experience read of somi to an Advanced+ player, that pushes up the likelihood of somi/??? teams, but doesn't really lower the likelihood of ??? being Xivii or FrozenFlame.

I think I've played about a dozen games so far, almost all of them on the late XKCD forum (we'll miss it forever). For what it's worth, BoomFrog and Xivii have seen me play there.

 

[osieorb18]

Fyi Xivii I do plan to address your case on me. But osi has sucked up all the attention at the moment. I'm also pretty busy today so it might come tomorrow.

osieorb18 Thanks for the quick (and decisive) catch-up. Somi has played a lot of forum mafia actually, but they don't have a good grasp of game setup stuff usually and are relatively low engagement these days.

Tell me more about Mercuri. Do you think they're last post (criticizing making a claim order) was alignment indicative?

Hmm...

does the order matter in a significant enough way to merit having an order in the first place

BoomFrog I think this is actually a pretty reasonable point given the gamestate. The thread has a bit of consensus, but not enough of one for the order to really make a huge difference. See: The votecount.

 

[osieorb18]

What if nobody gets to L-1 before the day runs out? I think D1 votes are generally all over the place and I don't see how we could stop that from happening.

Usually in majority-only games, the elimination comes down to either the last few hours or is decided somewhere in the early-to-middle part of the day and is pondered for a while.

I think I've played about a dozen games so far, almost all of them on the late XKCD forum (we'll miss it forever). For what it's worth, BoomFrog and Xivii have seen me play there.

That roughly matches my impression. Maybe a few more games than I expected, but definitely not higher than intermediate experience levels. Just starting to really get your sea legs, so to speak.

 

[osieorb18]

• Chaco - "Bastardy" Miller Claim. What does Self-Doubting mean? Oh, cool. I like that Chaco seems to want to solve, and their claim seems legit. This slot can be town for now.
• Xivii - DO SOMETHING. Omg, that true entry post (119) is all over the place, then they just start sliming their way through the thread when present. I want to elim this slot far more than anyone else.
• Darkpit - Role Flavour confirmed... Could be scummy, but feels like LHF just like in the previous game of theirs I saw. Yeah, Darkpit can be a townlean. (124) Need to see more.
• UP - Maybe not scum this game for once. *Sigh* No, you don't just get to take control of the game. Townlean with reservations.
• FrozenFlame - Darkpit is incredibly inexperienced. What are you talking about with meta slips? I kinda like 155 outside of the jab at 3DSNinja, but it doesn't cement unalignment from anyone helpful to me. I don't like that the ending is "We should elim in LHF."
• mərcurı - Paranoid here instantly. I vaguely remember thinking this about them every game, though. They start to look a little bit better once they come back to the thread. Need to see more here for sure.
• somitomi - Paranoid about the first post here, but willing to give them some time. 152 feels a little more null. 179 feels real. I sorta like it, even. 204 is gnarly coming from somitomi.
• BoomFrog - Scumreading mostly the LHF and then Xivii who is legit scummy. 148 mostly feels like a relatively inexperienced townie post again... I feel like there was another game in which I specifically misread BoomFrog as inexperienced, though maybe that was someone else. I absolutely don't want to massclaim.

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Noisy Child seems like it would be a role which is mod-confirmed as a role only. Meshes well with Innocent/Guilty Child. Could be town, particularly if the game has a low power vibe.

Self-Doubting Miller is cool.

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UtopianPoyzin - This isn't a b-game. Also, re: Noisy Child, the scum case could be a downside but based on roles known and the fact that DP felt like LHF here again, I'm guessing it's just town. Willing to reconsider if I don't see more posts from DP for long enough or if the posts I see are meh enough, though.

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My D1 PoE will probably be completely reworked at the start of D2, but I expect to find at least 1 scum in Xivii/FF/somitomi.

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First, as I mentioned, the self-nullifying nature of the statement is not one that is likely to come from a town position. I made note of this same tell from Mala in Midnight Ops. Basically it's a filler format that scum use to portray a sense of solving. It's displayed in different ways, but it's basically statements that are formed as "I thought this, but...," "I agree with this, but...," meant to show a sense of progression. It's not the way that townie players tend to actually communicate their views though. Townies tend to respond in a straightforward manner without the conjunction. So for example, town!darkpit may have said something like "he went back on it before anyone actually answered though so... eh?"

In this case, don't we know that they are both relatively new players? (DP for sure has a low single-digit number of games. I don't remember for certain on somi, but I vaguely recall them starting recently.) Why would we not Hanlon's Razor this behaviour in this context?

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I can colour usernames to try to subliminally reinforce my points too, but I won't because that's silly.

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I may need to grab GLG for one of my trolly setups after this game...

 

[Xivii]

Osie, I'm not brushing off your concerns, but it's difficult to address them since you haven't read the game thoroughly (which is evident by your points, and it's not believable that you read thoroughly that quickly). And the way you are reading me is as scum first, facts after. In this manner, you're taking all of my actions in the worst possible light rather than treating me in good faith and attempting to really determine my mindset.

Fyi Xivii Xivii I do plan to address your case on me. But osi has sucked up all the attention at the moment. I'm also pretty busy today so it might come tomorrow.

Iight, I figured. How come you liked Chaco's posts of you changed your mind on claiming?

and it wasn’t cultural imo either.

How do you figure?

and some points have been lacking

Which points do you think are lacking?

I misread Xivii badly last game for pushing things, much like you are right now, that I inherently thought were anti town. And it appears overwhelmingly so, that’s why you see Boom liking my posts about how Xivii throw at whatever. It’s just what I saw out of him last game, so I’m not seeking to push something I vastly tunneled last game.

Do you consider something I've done here to be anti-town?

n the past two games I’ve played with him

What was the other game?


osieorb18 or Darkpit54 could I have a link to Darkpit's recent game? Also Darkpit, is this the game with the IC shenanigans?

 

[osieorb18]

Osie, I'm not brushing off your concerns, but it's difficult to address them since you haven't read the game thoroughly (which is evident by your points, and it's not believable that you read thoroughly that quickly). And the way you are reading me is as scum first, facts after. In this manner, you're taking all of my actions in the worst possible light rather than treating me in good faith and attempting to really determine my mindset.

400 posts is :shrug:. I'm down to reread and reconsider tonight after work, I suppose.

osieorb18 or Darkpit54 could I have a link to Darkpit's recent game? Also Darkpit, is this the game with the IC shenanigans?

It had a false mason.

 

[osieorb18]

Osie, I'm not brushing off your concerns, but it's difficult to address them since you haven't read the game thoroughly (which is evident by your points, and it's not believable that you read thoroughly that quickly). And the way you are reading me is as scum first, facts after. In this manner, you're taking all of my actions in the worst possible light rather than treating me in good faith and attempting to really determine my mindset.

FrozenFlame is my other decently strong scumread, so if you want to talk to me about why he's a better elimination choice, feel free.