COMPLETELY VANILLA Mafia | Game Over

[osieorb18]

It would be optimal if you claimed before catching up.

Why are we massclaiming on Day 1?

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

We aren’t massclaiming anymore. This is a closed setup for a reason and mass-claiming only benefits scum here now that I think about it, there’s almost surely a rolecop so they can find the information for themselves.

 

[Xivii]

Why are we massclaiming on Day 1?

Again, it would be optimal if you claimed without knowledge why.

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Take your time Osie, I’m pretty sure both scummers are already active and about so you’re probably town. Keep your role to yourself for the time being.

 

[osieorb18]

Again, it would be optimal if you claimed without knowledge why.

Based on the couple of pages I've read, I trust UP more than I trust you, so I'm not sure why I would do this.

 

[osieorb18]

Massclaim on Day 1 usually ends in tragedy. I need a very good reason to participate in that.

 

[BoomFrog]

osieorb18 somitomi I believe we are mass claiming. Please claim in your next post if you don't mind.

We can skip UP for now and go with this order:

Osie / Somi
Mercuri / BoomFrog
FrozenFlame / UtopianPoyzin / Xivii

If everyone is OK with this, please like this post so that osie is aware that I'm not attempting to trick him.

No.

We should mass claim but Chaco sets the order.

And give replacements time to catch up. Trying to pressure them to immediately claim is just bad sportsmanship. Don't get all angley.

 

[osieorb18]

Xivii proposed a D1 massclaim on Page 3 after doing nothing for the majority of 3 pages.

What even is this world.

 

[Xivii]

Based on the couple of pages I've read, I trust UP more than I trust you, so I'm not sure why I would do this.

Ok, hopefully, that changes with time.

Chaco should I take your lack of like as disagreement?

Chaco #HBC | FrozeηFlame BoomFrog more on why Darkpit is mafia:

mərcurı and 3DSNinja where are your heads rn? What are you thinking about the current state of the game?

Xivii, can you explain the case on Frozen? So far his little content has me pretty much at null lol

Would UP immediately townread a scummate so hard? I'd imagine him being pretty null rn, and progressing more to town later on, like where Somi and the inactives are on his readlist

I can't think of a proper name for this at the moment, but basically Darkpit has consistently asked questions right after they have been answered or asked by someone else. I've seen this repeatedly as a newbie scum tell. Essentially, because he is having difficulty coming up with questions of his own, he is riding off of recent inquiries by other players. In that first quote, Chaco and Boom had just addressed the 3DS and Merc issue and just asked the same questions. Darkpit imitated this. In the second quote, I had just provided the reasoning on Frozen. In the third quote, I had just stated that strongly reading his mate is the MO for UP.

Another thing is this:

Can you explain this a little more? I don't think I quite understand. From how it seems to me this seems... really needlessly risky? Like it could lead to the easy push of a townie who hammers a misyeet, while also having the potential to give a lot of power to scum if they're allowed to hammer. Can you explain the benefits of this?

Why is Darkhorse asking this now, when he liked this post:

While we wait for Frozen to show up.

Why? This plan gives a lot of power to one person, but town is usually pretty good at picking one trustworthy person. And if we do pick a scum judge then that great responsibility will force great accountability. I think high pressure situations like that are more likely to make scum crack.

 

[BoomFrog]

Ehh, actually. I don't think we'd actually get anything useful out of mass claim anymore. Might as well not do it. Just remember to not give any value to roles in later Days and just yeet based on behavior.

 

[osieorb18]

A D2 massclaim can sometimes have value. A D1 massclaim, usually not. The only reason to go for a D1 massclaim is if town is very confident on a shared vision, and I'm not feeling that here.

BoomFrog You seem moderately townie. Could you rank Xivii/somitomi/FrozenFlame as "Doctor/Cop/Elim" for me? Like Kiss-Marry-Kill but for mafia!

 

[Xivii]

No.

We should mass claim but Chaco sets the order.

And give replacements time to catch up. Trying to pressure them to immediately claim is just bad sportsmanship. Don't get all angley.

What does angley mean? I've seen that a few times. Why does the order matter in your opinion? That being said, I'm fine with Chaco setting the order. Also I can see your point on sportsmanship, but I assure you my intent is not mischievous but a matter of cultural difference. It's standard in the culture I'm accustomed to (mafiascum).

 

[Xivii]

Darkhorse

lol

 

[osieorb18]

What does angley mean? I've seen that a few times. Why does the order matter in your opinion? That being said, I'm fine with Chaco setting the order. Also I can see your point on sportsmanship, but I assure you my intent is not mischievous but a matter of cultural difference. It's standard in the culture I'm accustomed to (mafiascum).

Nobody massclaims D1 in a closed setup though.

 

[osieorb18]

UtopianPoyzin Why were Xivii and FrozenFlame off the table in #129?

 

[Xivii]

Nobody massclaims D1 in a closed setup though.

That isn't what I was referring to.

 

[osieorb18]

That isn't what I was referring to.

Citing the culture with which you're familiar and your experience while suggesting something antithetical to most standard practices of mafia play is bizarre. It feels like a mental disconnect, and not in a good way. I'm unenthused with how manipulative and forceful you appear this game. You definitely appear to be putting on somewhat of an act, particularly with your sorta "lurking in plain sight" starting posts followed by a giant mess which was all over the place, and now you are trying to control the gameflow towards a massclaim. You're constantly pushing some kind of agenda and then stepping back just a bit when confronted about it. At about halfway caught up, you're my strongest scumread by a decent margin in a reasonably-sorted PoE of 3-4 people.

##Vote: Xivii

Chaco Darkpit54 UtopianPoyzin #HBC | FrozeηFlame mərcurı somitomi BoomFrog

Seems like this might be an easy game?

 

[BoomFrog]

You seem moderately townie. Could you rank Xivii/somitomi/FrozenFlame as "Doctor/Cop/Elim" for me? Like Kiss-Marry-Kill but for mafia!

Lol.

Doctor -> FrozenFlame
Cop -> Xivii
Elim -> Somi

Why'd you pick those three?

 

[osieorb18]

Lol.

Doctor -> FrozenFlame
Cop -> Xivii
Elim -> Somi

Why'd you pick those three?

They are kinda my PoE.

PoE at the moment is:

Xivii >>>> FrozenFlame > somitomi >>>> mercuri

Mercuri and Darkpit both feel like LHF. BoomFrog, Chaco, and UP feel like town.

 

[osieorb18]

Frozen and somitomi still have a decent chance to switch places. Xivii would take a miracle.

 

[osieorb18]

For your viewing pleasure:

 

[Darkpit54]

Why is Darkhorse asking this now, when he liked this post:

I believe I stated this in the same post you quoted, but in my read last night I completely missed the top half of 6, where what I quoted came from. I liked that post thinking it was about Boom's plan to have one person pick the order of claims lmao, which made sense because it was only choosing one person and applying a little pressure and trust.

Boom's other plan seemed like it would cycle the judge throughout the entirety of town? I don't really think this seems scummy but it seems like a horrible idea imo lol

 

[osieorb18]

@Chaco could I have you answers to these?


Could you explain what you found townie about Chaco up to that point?
What was the reason you were town leaning me up to this point?
I'm not sure why you keep saying might. We should be default assuming that none of the roles actually mean anything. This is completely vanilla. All of the roles are duds.
Just a heads up, it is faulty logic. Your understanding of the mafia community is a bit skewed. Normal rules specifically apply to mafiascum games.
I agree, it's just that you have a faulty understanding of how the roles work and the mafia community at large. For example, looking in the quote above, you are stating "if it's not a normal role," but that doesn't mean anything. All of the roles in this game were completely made up by Kary.
The mental gymnastics that you were doing here is that you are equating "watered down" to "dressed up." The roles aren't watered down. That would imply they have some functionality. They are dressed up to look like they have functionality but are simply vanilla roles. So Dark Pit's role is not a "watered down IC." All his role is, is literally just that the mod announces what his role is. It has no actual utility.

UtopianPoyzin why did you drop your theory that I was chainsaw defending a scumbuddy?
UtopianPoyzin you tried this strategy in Token mafia and it got you yeeted D1, why are you doing it again? The masterplan stuff I mean.


What are you vibing with? And do you think you would have this perspective had you not played with UP before?
What are the reasons? Is it meta/tone based?
What are the other reasons?
Doesn't get what?
I would also like this.

In what way did I demonstrate this?


If we claim today, we will be able to verify that people's night actions don't actually do anything over the long run, but if we wait, someone can swing out a cop etc. near end game and we would have no idea whether the results could be trusted. It's better that we get it all out now so we have time to adjust our expectations.

Again, this feels like an act. Like Xivii is trying to look busy. There's a lot of very easy questions. I feel like most of this post could just be summed up as "Hey, you! Elaborate your posts please!" which is an easy scum tactic to look like you're trying to push people and sort.

 

[osieorb18]

If people want a massclaim, we can talk about that at the start of D2.

For now, let's actually sort. There's almost 350 posts. That's plenty for everyone to have a gun-to-head PoE which they can reasonably explain.

 

[Xivii]

Citing the culture with which you're familiar and your experience while suggesting something antithetical to most standard practices of mafia play is bizarre. It feels like a mental disconnect, and not in a good way. I'm unenthused with how manipulative and forceful you appear this game. You definitely appear to be putting on somewhat of an act, particularly with your sorta "lurking in plain sight" starting posts followed by a giant mess which was all over the place, and now you are trying to control the gameflow towards a massclaim. You're constantly pushing some kind of agenda and then stepping back just a bit when confronted about it. At about halfway caught up, you're my strongest scumread by a decent margin in a reasonably-sorted PoE of 3-4 people.

The two aren't connected. I was providing a context for a cultural difference with regard to mafia ethics. It doesn't logically follow that because I was working off a different set of ethics that I adhere to a standard mechanical principle.

With regard to claiming, you're speaking in absolutes. Every game is unique and strategy should be adjusted to the peculiarities of the game. While yes, mass claiming D1 is generally looked down upon, it is not disadvantageous to do so in this game because it is completely vanilla. Furthermore, it is advantageous to do so because keeping the fact that it is completely vanilla obscure allows for scum to make claims that aren't faithful to reality (for example UP keeps claiming there is a cop, rolecop, and godfather). Additionally, somi is being scumread because he didn't grasp the nature of the setup. So having his role would allow us to judge whether or not that was reasonable.

Lastly, you say that I am trying to control the gameflow, but I've been pretty democratic about it I think. I'm just as fine not mass claiming if people don't care to do so. I do, however, think that somi should claim since whether or not he has a role that fits with his thought processes is pertinent to the way he is being read.

 

[Chaco]

Xivii No I didn’t agree and was working so didn’t have time to expound as to why right then. I disagree with the order, especially Osieorb being first when they’re repacking in. I understand why you tried to angle that before reading and seeing the knowledge start to unravel a bit ingame and people piecing together how roles could be. So you were trying to nail them or clear them instaneously basically. Like I said, I get it. But I don’t think anyone else did. But overall didn’t agree with it.

 

[Xivii]

Xivii No I didn’t agree and was working so didn’t have time to expound as to why right then. I disagree with the order, especially Osieorb being first when they’re repacking in. I understand why you tried to angle that before reading and seeing the knowledge start to unravel a bit ingame and people piecing together how roles could be. So you were trying to nail them or clear them instaneously basically. Like I said, I get it. But I don’t think anyone else did. But overall didn’t agree with it.

So do you disagree with the order or mass claiming in general?

 

[Chaco]

Osie v Xiv is definitely not same side scum theatre. Leaning TvT, slight possibility of TvS

 

[Chaco]

So do you disagree with the order or mass claiming in general?

I feel like its gonna have to happen regardless, so I don’t disagree with it. Order more so. I don’t think we get heavily penalized from mass claiming here tbh.

 

[osieorb18]

The two aren't connected. I was providing a context for a cultural difference with regard to mafia ethics. It doesn't logically follow that because I was working off a different set of ethics that I adhere to a standard mechanical principle.

With regard to claiming, you're speaking in absolutes. Every game is unique and strategy should be adjusted to the peculiarities of the game. While yes, mass claiming D1 is generally looked down upon, it is not disadvantageous to do so in this game because it is completely vanilla. Furthermore, it is advantageous to do so because keeping the fact that it is completely vanilla obscure allows for scum to make claims that aren't faithful to reality (for example UP keeps claiming there is a cop, rolecop, and godfather). Additionally, somi is being scumread because he didn't grasp the nature of the setup. So having his role would allow us to judge whether or not that was reasonable.

Lastly, you say that I am trying to control the gameflow, but I've been pretty democratic about it I think. I'm just as fine not mass claiming if people don't care to do so. I do, however, think that somi should claim since whether or not he has a role that fits with his thought processes is pertinent to the way he is being read.

1. There's a tonal contradiction between citing one of the top standard mafia backgrounds while pushing for something that isn't standard.

2. I'm not entirely. There are D1 situations. But you haven't really provided anything solid that supports a D1 situation in this context. The game is clearly not actually a mountainous game.

3. While I haven't read a couple of pages yet, this is the first instance I'm seeing of you backing off on the massclaim outside of myself and others essentially slapping you down with a hard no when I replaced in and you immediately started pushing me to start the massclaim.

 

[osieorb18]

I feel like its gonna have to happen regardless, so I don’t disagree with it. Order more so. I don’t think we get heavily penalized from mass claiming here tbh.

I'm down to massclaim at start of D2, first thing, if people want to do so. Outing informatives on D1 is only good if follow the cop is a thing in this setup. Outing manipulatives or protectives is awful.

 

[osieorb18]

I'm familiar with Xivii, UP, Darkpit, mercuri, and BoomFrog to varying degrees.

Darkpit and mercuri are usually easy miselims and therefore should probably not be our D1 picks without more solid reasoning than "they're low activity/somewhat scummy."

 

[Xivii]

What order would you like, Chaco? Everyone who is for claiming and chaco's order please like his post.

 

[osieorb18]

Osie v Xiv is definitely not same side scum theatre. Leaning TvT, slight possibility of TvS

Talk to me about why you feel Xivii is town. Have they left their admittedly relatively wide scumrange so far? Are they naturally progressing reads or poking around and trying to see what sticks?

 

[osieorb18]

While we wait for Frozen to show up.

Why? This plan gives a lot of power to one person, but town is usually pretty good at picking one trustworthy person. And if we do pick a scum judge then that great responsibility will force great accountability. I think high pressure situations like that are more likely to make scum crack.

Not with planning this early. They have plenty of time to come up with a strategy.

Our goal this game as town is to work together, and if we can do so, we should never have any difficulty achieving a majority elimination.

 

[BoomFrog]

What does angley mean? I've seen that a few times.

It means using "out of game"analysis to try and evaluate people's alignment (or gain other advantage in the game). The game is evaluate people based on what they say and in game actions they take. Judging people on "outside" things like timestamps, or "did you get a fast night prompt" or "how many paragraphs long was your role PM" are angley.

 

[Chaco]

Talk to me about why you feel Xivii is town. Have they left their admittedly relatively wide scumrange so far? Are they naturally progressing reads or poking around and trying to see what sticks?

You against him feels TvT. I understand the angle Xivii is representing cause I see what he was going for. It wasn’t scum angled, and it wasn’t cultural imo either. He was trying to trap you into an early claim to sort you one way or the other and I don’t think that was scummy, just townopportunistic.

 

[Chaco]

To blatant to be scummy imo

 

[Chaco]

My list would be:

Somi-Mercuri
Up-Xivii
Osie
Frozen
Boom

 

[osieorb18]

It means using "out of game"analysis to try and evaluate people's alignment (or gain other advantage in the game). The game is evaluate people based on what they say and in game actions they take. Judging people on "outside" things like timestamps, or "did you get a fast night prompt" or "how many paragraphs long was your role PM" are angley.

Actually, flat out angleshooting is rulebreaking. There's no need to accuse people of rulebreaking in the thread. If you feel that someone is not being productive, that's a reasonable accusation. If you feel they're breaking rules, talk to the host. Don't bring it up in thread. This has been your friendly local rules guru, fluttering away to finish reading the thread.