COMPLETELY VANILLA Mafia | Game Over

[osieorb18]

No one who is for the mass claim has once cited me as the reason for it. My motives are irrelevant because I'm one person out of the majority who agree with it. You're trying to attribute the mass claim as Xivii's thing, but that's simply not the reality.

Now you're changing your story. You proposed the massclaim. You have been by far its strongest advocate. When a couple of players started reading the game instead of talking about a massclaim, you put things back on the path for it with:

Chaco and @UtopianPoyzin are you for or against mass claiming?

Chaco disagreed with you and you argued for it:

I think this is precisely why we should do so now. I'd rather not have a PR claim late game and have people roll with it.

You twisted somitomi's post to use it as a springboard for a massclaim:

If we claim today, we will be able to verify that people's night actions don't actually do anything over the long run, but if we wait, someone can swing out a cop etc. near end game and we would have no idea whether the results could be trusted. It's better that we get it all out now so we have time to adjust our expectations.

Yet again, when people were not thinking about a massclaim, you brought it up once more:

I'll explain once we get the details of your reads. What do you think about Darkpit not responding to your question?

If we are going to mass claim, let's go with this order:

3DSNinja
UtopianPoyzin
somitomi
Mercuri
BoomFrog
FrozenFlame
Xivii

Then people strayed away from your path and you brought it up AGAIN, this time as "everyone's in agreement."

The only person who had agreed at this point was BoomFrog.

osieorb18 @somitomi I believe we are mass claiming. Please claim in your next post if you don't mind.

We can skip UP for now and go with this order:

Osie / Somi
Mercuri / BoomFrog
FrozenFlame / UtopianPoyzin / Xivii

If everyone is OK with this, please like this post so that osie is aware that I'm not attempting to trick him.

And you phrased that post so it looks like it's me versus a majority, to support your later "me versus a majority" point.

It's telling that for all of your sorting of people for a massclaim list, you've never actually given a full set of reads yourself. Why is that? Are you worried that people might catch you in a contradiction or that your reads might be used later to hint towards your partner?

You've asked a lot of questions, but most of them have been easy. People have been townreading you on quantity, not on quality.

And now you've made the game about "For Massclaim" or "Against Massclaim."

This is your massclaim. Not anyone else's. You don't get to pretend to not own it. This is on you entirely. Nobody else has pushed for it. Nobody else has talked about its benefits. Even you haven't. The most you've said is "We can clear this up and move on to scumhunting."

That's not how mafia works. We don't clear up roles and then move on to scumhunting. We scumhunt. If roles are involved, whatever. If roles aren't involved, whatever.

You don't get to try to waste the time of everyone in the thread and then claim it wasn't your fault. I refuse to not call you out for that.

 

[osieorb18]

@somitomi why are ignoring the fact that that is already settled.

I hardclaim a protective role.

 

[osieorb18]

Come at me, scum.

 

[Chaco]

Why are you considering meta on players for which you have very little but not considering much the more established meta of Xivii being one of the strongest and most outspoken scum players in the forum?

I didn’t mean his scum meta, I meant his town. He does things that are wildly considered anti town in the name of. Fake claims last game etc, so why is it any different the way he’s pushing for a mass claim here? Apples to oranges but same rules apply? Why is it his scum meta and not his town?

 

[Xivii]

If we are doing a massclaim, please wait for everyone to claim whether or not their role does anything more than a visitor before anyone claims what their role is. Thank you.

Based on the vote count, I'd say this has already been settled. So @somitomi

For Claiming (5) - Chaco, Xivii, Frozen, Merc, 1/2 * [Darkpit, Boom]
Against Claiming (2) - Utopian, Osie

I agree with Chaco on Frozen's post. Frozen is the only player I hard town read.

@somitomi why are ignoring the fact that that is already settled.

Here, let me put it this way, we know that those for claiming do not have useful role: Xivii, Frozen, Merc, Boom. We know Chaco and Darkpit's roles. We already know the answer to what you're asking. That's what I mean by it's already been settled. All this is really doing now is stalling. And like what's the point in doing this before full claiming if it's just going to out the hypothetical useful roles anyway.

 

[osieorb18]

Here, let me put it this way, we know that those for claiming do not have useful role: Xivii, Frozen, Merc, Boom. We know Chaco and Darkpit's roles. We already know the answer to what you're asking. That's what I mean by it's already been settled. All this is really doing now is stalling. And like what's the point in doing this before full claiming if it's just going to out the hypothetical useful roles anyway.

Congrats, you succesfully rolefished. I applaud you.

 

[osieorb18]

I didn’t mean his scum meta, I meant his town. He does things that are wildly considered anti town in the name of. Fake claims last game etc, so why is it any different the way he’s pushing for a mass claim here? Apples to oranges but same rules apply? Why is it his scum meta and not his town?

A massclaim isn't anti-town on principle, it's the manner in which he's gone about it which is anti-town. I've mentioned this multiple times. A D1 massclaim is probably not great, but it's still information. It still has potential townie motivation. But hard pushing for it, being manipulative, and redirecting all discussion to "We're going to massclaim"? That's not townie. Period.

 

[Xivii]

Chaco you keep sniping at me for being anti-town but when I asked you directly what you find to be anti-town, you disagreed that I have been. What gives? My thinking is that you're just trying to counter osie's argument from his own perspective, but I feel that isn't a fruitful way to go about it because it works under the assumption that I am indeed being anti-town.

 

[osieorb18]

If a Noisy Child is just a role reveal, as people suggest, that's a hell of a lot more information than just a visitor. That's no longer a red herring. While it's not an alignment check, it is information.

 

[osieorb18]

I can PBPA Xivii and show the anti-town moments.

I'll full claim my role if people still want that massclaim.

But Xivii's succeeded already in rolefishing out town power roles. So the massclaim has already done its damage.

 

[osieorb18]

Chaco you keep sniping at me for being anti-town but when I asked you directly what you find to be anti-town, you disagreed that I have been. What gives? My thinking is that you're just trying to counter osie's argument from his own perspective, but I feel that isn't a fruitful way to go about it because it works under the assumption that I am indeed being anti-town.

^ Worried more about people's reads on him than about scumhunting.

 

[osieorb18]

#119, the post which really sold Xivii as scum for me. The easy moments mostly amount to LAMIST busywork in the form of questions that take no effort for either alignment to ask and don't further the game.

5 easy moments.

What gave you the impression that red were town reads?

This is where we get into my issue with the colouring. It doesn't have to be consistent, and it can subliminally suggest that Xivii townreads or scumreads somebody.

2 easy moments.

What I do propose, however, is that we mass claim. I think doing so would be beneficial in this setup because of all the red herrings. It would be good to know what we are actually dealing with and it would make it harder for scum to pseudo clear themselves in the larger scheme of things. For example, you are clearing Chaco and DP for their roles, but I suspect once we have a bigger picture of the game, we will see that we cannot clear anyone from their roles. Additionally, considering that the title of the game is completely vanilla, I doubt any of us are actual power roles. Furthermore, I think it would be a good idea for us to get this sorted so that we can move on with scumhunting.

This is the first mention of a massclaim in the thread by anyone. Proposing a massclaim is usually not alignment indicative, particularly the more skill a player has. The reasoning for this push is setupgaming based on the title of the game and modgaming that Kary is a troll. From a town perspective, this seems very early, especially considering that he pushes for it with zero reservations. From a mafia perspective, there's more favour to the massclaim if the setup has any chance of jumping outside of the vanilla to visitor range.

5 easy moments.

Not necessarily. It would be within Kary's MO and the flavor of the game for the role to be a red herring. In fact, I highly suspect there is no real investigative and that if there is, there is a good chance they are actually mafia. Here are the roles from one of Kary's previous games. One of the roles contained a 1-shot firefighter ability but there was no arsonist in the game. One of the mafia roles also had a universal backup safe claim, but they were actually just a scum role that absorbed a dead townie's power. I suspect that Kary shares my ideal as a host that no player should be able to be cleared or condemned from their role, and that town should not be able to succeed by attempting to metagame the setup.

But that doesn't say anything about mafia pretending to metagame the setup. Also, this is more setupgaming.

1 easy moment.

I think this is suspicious and an attempt at a fake town innocence/perspective. Basically it's a backward form of reasoning, concluding that this isn't a b-game because you are town. When reality you should already know this isn't a b-game from the fact that it isn't a b-game. The whole way this is structured just doesn't gel with me, especially considering how logical of a player you are. You are my top suspect.

This doesn't make any sense from the post it's quoting. It's taking half of a tonal element of one piece of the post and amplifying it to an extreme, where in reality the post is saying something very different. The "I feel like I probably shouldn't be treated as an Innocent Child" is something you don't see often from newish scum players. It's something you only really see from newish town and experienced scum. But Xivii doesn't want people to focus on that. Because that would mean thinking outside of Xivii's agenda.

I believe this is another attempt at faking a townie perspective. Again, you have shown to be quite logical. In Midnight Ops you were aware that we would potentially be in lylo D4 before any of the rest of us considered it. It's not believable to me that you'd suspect there would be 3 scum in a 9 person game.

WTF is Xivii talking about here? There can be 3 scum in a 9 person game.

This is unnecessary commentary. It's the type of content scum puts out in an attempt to look like they are engaged and sorting, but does not actually do anything to move town closer to solving the game.

The first subtlety to Xivii's reads this game. And possibly the last.

I don't have any read on somitomi, Frozen, or Mercuri.

Well, it's astonishingly convenient that those players are the PoE with Xivii.

I'm ambivalent regarding Chaco. He seems to be saying the right things, but something feels off. I'm not exactly sure what to make of it yet.

"I want to leave Chaco open for a miselim, but he's one of the townier players in the thread so I shouldn't go without acknowledging that."

UP is saying and doing a lot of scummy things—his unjustified and strong reads on Chaco and DP, his assertion that there is a rolecop and godfather, and his assertion that there is a functioning cop. His motives are hard to decipher though, so I'm not willing to call it scum just yet. I suspect that he is either mistakingly assuming there is more power to the setup than there actually is, has a faulty cop role and is trying to draw the night kill, or is scum attempting to establish himself as a functioning cop. I think the middle is probably the most likely, but his unjustified reads are the primary source of my apprehension.

"UP is an easy push, so let's push suspicions for UP, while hiding an admittance that he might be town in the middle of things so I can make myself look better later."

I believe Darkpit is scum for the points I listed above.

Vote: Darkpit

"If you disagree with me, you aren't reading my post or Darkpit's posts well enough."

 

[osieorb18]

Note that while Xivii is acting on a pretense of interacting with me, he's never really denying what I'm saying. He's either just flat-out saying "No, this isn't the case" (Just contradiction), "People disagree with you" (Irrelevant), or intentionally misinterpreting what I'm saying (strawman).

Never actually going through what I'm saying directly and providing evidence for why it's inaccurate. Never explaining his own position and why it's superior to my objections to it.

He's not interacting with me in good faith. He's just trying to keep people off his back.

 

[Xivii]

I don't think it's really necessary to respond to all that unless Chaco, Frozen, Boom want me to, but I'd rather keep the clutter down.

 

[osieorb18]

I don't think it's really necessary to respond to all that unless Chaco, Frozen, Boom want me to, but I'd rather keep the clutter down.

Classic scum tactic - handwaving people correctly scumreading them.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

I dont have a ton of time right now so just checking in but holy **** I don't think I've ever seen people handwringing this intensely about claiming in a situation like ours where I think we have very, very strong indications that this game is probably functionally mountainous with at most a couple low impact but in the strictest sense "info generating" roles (noisy child clearly meeting this description, it provides "info" to the game that amounts to nothing more than a speculation generator lacking any depth beyond mod-WIFOM-logic-inherent arguments)

I don't really have any experience with oseiorb as far as I can recall and the effort the slot is putting in since the replacement is obviously welcome (not that 3DSNinja set a high bar) but the slot comes off very aggressive and uncomfortable with anyone coalitioning with xiivi. If we're wrong and osie is legitimately town with a real meaningful and functional PR then I can understand the harsh reaction to xiivi, my slot, boom and chaco giving the mass claim push legs, but this framing of the massclaim as a scum powerplay from xiivi feels insanely reachy. like this is modest by xiivi standards for 'gambit" given all the indicators we have that the claim will border on inconsequential. from my PoV, this stance on the mass claim is either terrified/confused and flailing scum, extremely dense and uncritically thinking town (seems unlikely given the slots demonstration of clear competence of how the game is played), or a legitimately terrified and paranoid town PR

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

I don't think it's really necessary to respond to all that unless Chaco, Frozen, Boom want me to, but I'd rather keep the clutter down.

i've already described my take on osie's attack on your slot in my above post so I don't need an urgent point by point rebuttal at this point, but we may need to revisit some points depending on how the mass claim goes

Classic scum tactic - handwaving people correctly scumreading them.

I think handwaving wouldn't request inputs from other slots, don't you? I see the point you're making but this comes off a little overconvinced of xiivis intent

 

[osieorb18]

i've already described my take on osie's attack on your slot in my above post so I don't need an urgent point by point rebuttal at this point, but we may need to revisit some points depending on how the mass claim goes

I think handwaving wouldn't request inputs from other slots, don't you? I see the point you're making but this comes off a little overconvinced of xiivis intent

Except he's not requesting input. He's saying "IF input happened, I'd do this." It's passive. It's not active. That's where there's a difference.

 

[osieorb18]

If we're wrong and osie is legitimately town with a real meaningful and functional PR then I can understand the harsh reaction to xiivi, my slot, boom and chaco giving the mass claim push legs, but this framing of the massclaim as a scum powerplay from xiivi feels insanely reachy.

Is it not telling to you that Xivii doesn't care about my claim? That he doesn't analyze my claim? Fundamentally, Xivii doesn't care about analysis of the information a massclaim provides. He wants the information for his team. He wants town to go through the exercise of claiming to waste the time of town. It's an optimal world for him if town is entirely vanillas or visitors. He WANTS that to be the case. So much that he INSISTS that it MUST be the case. I challenge that. So he handwaves that challenge as working against his agenda. He has the privilege of having people listen to him. He doesn't use that privilege to listen to others.

 

[mərcurı]

He asked a lot more easy meaningless questions ("Elaborate please?") than UP.



Before I re-ISO Xivii and determine if I still am certain on this (may or may not be the case):

Xivii isn't trying to sort/solve. He's trying to eliminate somebody, anyone. He's trying to rolefish as much as possible. He's trying to look townie by throwing out long posts with a lot of easy questions. But he isn't trying to sort/solve.

going to let this simmer for a bit

 

[mərcurı]

if this slot makes it to endgame my faith in this community will be irreparably shaken

i do much better lategame dont worry about it

 

[osieorb18]

if this slot makes it to endgame my faith in this community will be irreparably shaken

And if they are one of the essential town members to solving the game? What then?

 

[Chaco]

Old school DGames was just a bit different, and would lynch inactives and policy lynch per se for similar action.

Spoiler: Not Game Relevant

It just was a different era and different player base, so FF is just showing he’s an oldhead lol. FF is an old head by my standards even, and I first started playing mafia in this forum over 10 years ago.

#HBC | FrozeηFlame remember we literally wagoned Hando to a Lynch on D1 in a game during RVS

 

[Chaco]

My final input on the above is that Xivii is a very atypical player. I don’t hold their slot to the same standards as I do others because I would just tunnel them every single game regardless of alignment, therefore I wait to see game progression with Xivii. I understand your reservation to treat his slot this way, but I haven’t found a better way to do so yet. You’re doing exactly what I did in UPs game and just blew up the game with Xivii in the spotlight. I understand the frustration and why you see it as scummy. I also see why Xivii works the way that he does. It works for him. What works for Xivii doesn’t mean it works for everyone else, and he pretty much makes those calls regardless. Last game being example, his fake claim messed up reads for me, Z, and Boom. However, I ended up catching Mala’s fake reaction to it, and it ended up paying off. Doesn’t mean it was the right way to scunhunt, but in a roundabout way it worked. I have not placed him this game yet, but I do know that blowing it up like this isn’t helping town as a whole rn. I don’t disagree with what you’re saying, but I’m also for a claim, so it doesn’t seem as forced to me.

 

[osieorb18]

My final input on the above is that Xivii is a very atypical player. I don’t hold their slot to the same standards as I do others because I would just tunnel them every single game regardless of alignment, therefore I wait to see game progression with Xivii. I understand your reservation to treat his slot this way, but I haven’t found a better way to do so yet. You’re doing exactly what I did in UPs game and just blew up the game with Xivii in the spotlight. I understand the frustration and why you see it as scummy. I also see why Xivii works the way that he does. It works for him. What works for Xivii doesn’t mean it works for everyone else, and he pretty much makes those calls regardless. Last game being example, his fake claim messed up reads for me, Z, and Boom. However, I ended up catching Mala’s fake reaction to it, and it ended up paying off. Doesn’t mean it was the right way to scunhunt, but in a roundabout way it worked. I have not placed him this game yet, but I do know that blowing it up like this isn’t helping town as a whole rn. I don’t disagree with what you’re saying, but I’m also for a claim, so it doesn’t seem as forced to me.

I've used to do this with atypical, particularly skilled players before. Then I got over it. Because fundamentally, while it may feel like you're respecting Xivii's skill and playstyle and that you're playing cautiously, instead you're giving a pass to someone and crippling your own play. If you find Xivii difficult to read, then you work on it. You look for the clues. You try to read them more. You don't sit back and give them a free pass.

 

[osieorb18]

I understand the frustration and why you see it as scummy.

I think you're misinterpreting some of my posts as frustrated when they aren't. I want town amongst us to work together, and I still believe that we can get there, but it requires recognizing those who are happy to sit back and divide and conquer. So I'm trying to pull town together to overcome that.

 

[osieorb18]

Old school DGames was just a bit different, and would lynch inactives and policy lynch per se for similar action.

Mafia across communities has moved on. People have started to realized that "Lynch all lurkers" isn't fun. It has its effectiveness, but activity isn't the end-all-be-all of tells, and it hurts inclusion of new players into the game.

Newer players, busier players, less invested or less familiar players... they're still not treated as fairly. There's still privilege to being an established presence. But the discussions are happening now of how to move forward. How to wake people up to the fact that mafia must be inclusive or it may die of its own petard.

 

[Xivii]

I agree with yeeting slots that are textbook detrimental, I just think it's better to spend time on that D2. Right now I think pit's flip gives us a good idea of the game state. D2 we can focus on yeeting between UP and Merc. And if the game is still going D3 we dig deep into behavior / motives of players based around flip data.

That's the general layout of how I like to play: D1 yeet scum based on intent, D2 yeet based on textbook tells, D3 either clean up if previous days have left scum naked or reevaluate of not.

 

[Darkpit54]

I hardclaim a protective role.

I'll try to address everything pointed to me but I feel like this claim severely challenges how we were viewing roles this game, and I haven't really seen anyone bring it up. This kinda contradicts the idea that all roles are just dressed up vanilla, right?

 

[Chaco]

It crippled my play last game when trying to broach it, and this is my second game back, so I haven’t fully decided how to handle his slot yet. I haven’t found a fool proof way to read what he does. And yeah I hear what you’re saying about trying to rally town around that and point out what you see as scummy insistence, but I actually agree with the mass claim. I think it’s the best tool we have right now to sort the beginning of game debacle.

Im open to discussion about it, but basically what I’m saying is, I’m not giving him a free pass, but I’m not co-signing his play style. But at the sake time I agree with the mass claim, so there’s not really a point in me fueling why I think the way he goes about it could be different, you feel me?

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

i do much better lategame dont worry about it

based on what I've seen so far I'm very worried about it

And if they are one of the essential town members to solving the game? What then?

literally in what twisted reality is actively not contributing, flaunting it, and then saying "lol i'm sick late game just chill" in any way, shape, or form anywhere within a lightyear of "solving the game?" this is pascal's wager level what if-ing

Old school DGames was just a bit different, and would lynch inactives and policy lynch per se for similar action.

Spoiler: Not Game Relevant

It just was a different era and different player base, so FF is just showing he’s an oldhead lol. FF is an old head by my standards even, and I first started playing mafia in this forum over 10 years ago.

#HBC | FrozeηFlame remember we literally wagoned Hando to a Lynch on D1 in a game during RVS

bro we were doin HBC **** wayyyy before the HBC was even a thing, talk about an era of getting **** done. the games were wayyyyy bigger back then though so you had a little more leeway to auto yeet liability slots than these smaller games so I understand people's hesitance to be as harsh on it but it's like how am I just supposed to take it at peoples' word that slots that literally are intentionally minimizing their paper trail and readability are somehow gonna be the town saviors in endgame? absolutely **** that noise

Mafia across communities has moved on. People have started to realized that "Lynch all lurkers" isn't fun. It has its effectiveness, but activity isn't the end-all-be-all of tells, and it hurts inclusion of new players into the game.

Newer players, busier players, less invested or less familiar players... they're still not treated as fairly. There's still privilege to being an established presence. But the discussions are happening now of how to move forward. How to wake people up to the fact that mafia must be inclusive or it may die of its own petard.

you know what else isn't fun? having to make game deciding decisions between slots that are ****ing unreadable because they literally don't play the game? I understand taking on a more passive style or a game or taking a minimalist approach but it is absolutely anti ****ing town to refuse to play. I'm sorry you will never convince me that not even attempting to contribute or take meaningful stances is playing to your wincon as town

there's a reason "noob town/dumb town" reads are a thing. it's not a crime to be a new player and not know exactly what to say. this isn't about a slot being too intimidated to contribute, its about a slot giving us all the middle finger and blatantly not playing to town wincon and asking us to take it on faith that he'll be our endgame ringer

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

I agree with yeeting slots that are textbook detrimental, I just think it's better to spend time on that D2. Right now I think pit's flip gives us a good idea of the game state. D2 we can focus on yeeting between UP and Merc. And if the game is still going D3 we dig deep into behavior / motives of players based around flip data.

That's the general layout of how I like to play: D1 yeet scum based on intent, D2 yeet based on textbook tells, D3 either clean up if previous days have left scum naked or reevaluate of not.

this is essentially why I'm still sticking with UP and saying I'll be mad if the slot makes it to endgame, not D2. I get priority strategies like this is makes total sense, I'm just saying like please for the love of god do not reward this kind of play ffs

 

[osieorb18]

D2 we can focus on yeeting between UP and Merc.

That's the general layout of how I like to play: D1 yeet scum based on intent, D2 yeet based on textbook tells, D3 either clean up if previous days have left scum naked or reevaluate of not.

Except UP is less textbook scum than Xivii this game.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

I'll try to address everything pointed to me but I feel like this claim severely challenges how we were viewing roles this game, and I haven't really seen anyone bring it up. This kinda contradicts the idea that all roles are just dressed up vanilla, right?

yes but can you say with a straight face that you're very confident that a pseudo claim like that, given his posturing re: the massclaim generally, isn't a gambit? anyone else see what I mean?

 

[osieorb18]

It crippled my play last game when trying to broach it, and this is my second game back, so I haven’t fully decided how to handle his slot yet. I haven’t found a fool proof way to read what he does. And yeah I hear what you’re saying about trying to rally town around that and point out what you see as scummy insistence, but I actually agree with the mass claim. I think it’s the best tool we have right now to sort the beginning of game debacle.

Im open to discussion about it, but basically what I’m saying is, I’m not giving him a free pass, but I’m not co-signing his play style. But at the sake time I agree with the mass claim, so there’s not really a point in me fueling why I think the way he goes about it could be different, you feel me?

Why do you agree with the mass claim? What about the mass claim is a good idea to you? I will be Twelve Angry Men's Juror Eight for as long as I have to be Twelve Angry Men's Juror Eight this game.

 

[mərcurı]

I've used to do this with atypical, particularly skilled players before. Then I got over it. Because fundamentally, while it may feel like you're respecting Xivii's skill and playstyle and that you're playing cautiously, instead you're giving a pass to someone and crippling your own play. If you find Xivii difficult to read, then you work on it. You look for the clues. You try to read them more. You don't sit back and give them a free pass.

osie t

 

[Chaco]

I feel we have gotten way off basis toDay.

osieorb18 Do you think Xivii is the optimal okay toDay? Like that’s where you want to push? Or were you just stating why you were against his pushiness etc

 

[Chaco]

Why do you agree with the mass claim? What about the mass claim is a good idea to you? I will be Twelve Angry Men's Juror Eight for as long as I have to be Twelve Angry Men's Juror Eight this game.

I agree with it because it sorts the beginning of day deal, and gives a good spring board to pursue leads based off of that. I think it’s the most informative route we can go. Also, if all is out there, fake claims only hold so much water and gives a greater PoE along with tells. With that being said also, I love PRs and creating them for set ups, but PRs don’t win games. Players do. And I think tactically it sets us up the best, especially if a game this style from what we have gathered.

I got you though.

 

[osieorb18]

I feel we have gotten way off basis toDay.

osieorb18 Do you think Xivii is the optimal okay toDay? Like that’s where you want to push? Or were you just stating why you were against his pushiness etc

I am extremely confident that Xivii is a good elimination today. I am also extremely confident that both Poyzin and Darkpit are not very good eliminations today. Poyzin less so than Darkpit, but Poyzin's attitude in approaching this game is categorically not what I would expect from scum!Poyzin. It's a read that is a little questionable in formation since part of it is founded on Poyzin's gungho start being strange given that he's been looking to play more town games recently, which isn't a great basis, but Poyzin's also been trying to play the game. Darkpit was just miseliminated in VTR for pretty much general awkwardness. I don't believe that it's more likely that awkwardness didn't affect this following game. I don't believe that Darkpit isn't trying to improve as a player. That if Darkpit had a scumbuddy, that scumbuddy wouldn't have coached Darkpit at all in scumchat. This game doesn't feel like scum is sitting back and watching town tear itself apart. It doesn't feel like scum is sacrificing one of its own. It feels like scum is directing town to go after LHF.

 

[Chaco]

But don’t get me wrong I’m not for mass claiming early all the time. I tried to get it to happen in UPs game way earlier than when everyone wanted because I recognized that Lynch pool would be comprised of all VTs and that with Ninja shots, PRs were offset and a massclaim benefitted us from a PoE stance.