Competitive Viability

[Pazx]

Been playing around with the new update for a bit, haven't seen any changes to Jr's moveset except one I'm not sure about... Have you always been able to B-reverse clown car? From what I remember when I tried to B-reverse it I just immediately spun out but my memory's fuzzy.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but side specials can't be B-reversed, as it's just doing the side special the other direction.

 

[NidoMay]

I don't think they've gotten any changes, let alone positive... despite seeming to need it rather badly.

 

[Kushamo]

I just checked in training mode, and it looked like none of his moves were changed in 1.0.4. I did a quick comparison to the list of kill %s I made, and everything killed at the same time.

Reposting for convenience:

All numbers taken from the middle of Final Destination against a Mario CPU in training mode.
For best results, preheat oven to 80% and Up-B into hammer swing for a flashy show!

////Smashes

Uncharged side: 105
Charged side: 65

Uncharged down: 115
Charged down: 75

Uncharged up: 115
Charged up: 80


////Specials

Abandon Ship: 155

Uncharg cannon: 320
Charged cannon: 130

Car (spinout): 150
Car (fast): 220
Car (slow): 345

Mechakoopa: 305
Mecha (thrown): 305


////Tilts

Up tilt: 225
Side tilt: 195
Down tilt: 215


////Aerials

Up air: 160
Forward air: 185
Back air: 150
Neutral air: 250

Hammer swing: 125


////Throws

Back throw: 200
Up throw: 210
Down throw: 250
Forward throw: 335

 

[guedes the brawler]

I just checked in training mode, and it looked like none of his moves were changed in 1.0.4. I did a quick comparison to the list of kill %s I made, and everything killed at the same time.

Reposting for convenience:

maybe they fixed the ridiculous hitbox on fsmash? i mean, with proper spacing it was actually helpful BUT... it's just wrong.

 

[Shadow_nobody]

His down throw does 8.5% down from 9%. His Dair also hits only 7 times instead of 9 going from 12% Damage down to 9.5%.
Albeit kind of minor, they're undeeded nerfs.

 

[Lord Exor]

They nerfed him? What is Sakurai smoking?

 

[Ffamran]

They nerfed him? What is Sakurai smoking?

Considering he's working Nintendo, he's not smoking anything. 'Shrooms, mah boi!

Fitting how this is in a thread about a Mario character.

 

[NidoMay]

Oh geez, really? Nerfing was the last thing he needed.

 

[Tater]

Well I'm not too happy about nerfs on my character but they're pretty minor and I hadn't even noticed them so I suppose it's not a big deal...

The more I play Ludwig, the better I think he is. I don't think he's deserving of nerfs, but I don't think he needs any (big) buffs. The most important thing with him is to know your moves inside and out, and how they string together. You can literally 0-death people as long as you know where your moves will knock them back based on % and character weight.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but side specials can't be B-reversed, as it's just doing the side special the other direction.

Nope, side specials can be B-reversed. You might be thinking of turnaround-B's, which is flicking the control stick the opposite direction shortly before using a special. B-reversing a side special is done by inputting forward + B then flicking the control stick in the opposite direction, and it will reverse your momentum(to a certain degree). Checked in training mode, Ludwig's side-B CAN be turnaround-B'd, B-reversed, and wavebounced.

 

[NidoMay]

I think the sideB does a bit less knockback without a spinout. Though this pretty much works in his favour since it's a bit easier to follow up on that way at higher percentages.

Speaking of, it seems downthrow does less damage but did anyone check into knockback? I haven't tested but it's previously been hard to follow up on I've found. Is it any easier now?


Also, might have gotten heavier: just watched a Jr barely survive a gordo at 180% or so

And I think his recovery is a little better, just saw another jr get hit after ejecting by a flamethrower, he got the car back right away. Like, as he got hit.

Basically what might have initially been considered nerfs might be stealth buffs!

 

[Christhewolf63]

They did fix the F-smash Wiff spot they turned into a Sour spot instead and it only completely sour spots on wii fit and Zss

 

[Dagon97]

from what i've seen if you space and camp hard then you can wall out rush down charecters like Little Mac and Shiek

 

[Kit Cal-N]

They did fix the F-smash Wiff spot they turned into a Sour spot instead and it only completely sour spots on wii fit and Zss

But that's not true because it's not in the data dump.

 

[Christhewolf63]

Really? Then What makes it not whiff?

 

[Kit Cal-N]

Decreased effectiveness of VI so it's harder to escape, maybe?

 

[Shadow_nobody]

After playing a lot on the wii u I can definitely say that there is still definitely a gap where it'll whiff. It happened to me several times vs a mac, but it definitely doesn't happen as much. It probably has something to do with VI like how jabs are easier to land fully.

As for something that I've done that catches people off guard if they've never seen it. If you get someone off stage with fairs and you're near the edge you can go right into Clown Kart spinout to kill at INCREDIBLY low percents (Can't remember but it was low). The downside is that if you went off stage following as far as possible you're going to die right after just because of how close you are to the edge. Obviously it doesn't happen a lot, but its something to keep in mind to catch people off guard.

 

[Lord Exor]

Speaking of which, can anyone confirm or deny if there is frame-specific invincibility on the Clown Kart? Or at least the Koopa Drift? You seem to be immune from damage if a Mecha-Koopa explodes mid-spin out, and I've witnessed several instances of enemy attacks generating the tell-tale white circles of invulnerability.

 

[Kit Cal-N]

Speaking of which, can anyone confirm or deny if there is frame-specific invincibility on the Clown Kart? Or at least the Koopa Drift? You seem to be immune from damage if a Mecha-Koopa explodes mid-spin out, and I've witnessed several instances of enemy attacks generating the tell-tale white circles of invulnerability.

Spin-Out has VERY high priority and heavy armor. It'll clank a lot of attacks (the circles) and can absorb a lot it doesn't.

 

[NidoMay]

Well, bad news as far as wii u is concerned, the up B recovery is still ridiculously gimpable despite being fixed in 3ds.
Though as a tradeoff they seem to have more attacking power too...

 

[milesg2g]

It may be too early, but I think Bowser JR gets wrecked by Jiggs just saying.

 

[NidoMay]

It may be too early, but I think Bowser JR gets wrecked by Jiggs just saying.

Well the fairs and all probably have more range than Jiggs, but then Jiggs probably renders mechakoopas and canons useless.

Still, looking at the replay channel, the gangs' win ratio seems a lot better on wii u besides the easy gimping.

 

[milesg2g]

Lets not focus on win rates and focus on that MU alone tho my friends. I think this is a serious counterpick lol. Maybe I'm being too jumpy on th e matter, but I feel like bowswerjr gets wrecked by jigs just saying.

 

[NidoMay]

Lets not focus on win rates and focus on that MU alone tho my friends. I think this is a serious counterpick lol. Maybe I'm being too jumpy on th e matter, but I feel like bowswerjr gets wrecked by jigs just saying.

Well like I said, I think the fairs and such overpower Jigg's airs and stuff. Maybe someone could test that?

 

[milesg2g]

Well like I said, I think the fairs and such overpower Jigg's airs and stuff. Maybe someone could test that?

Idk it just seems like you can't get away from her. I know she has tons of air mobility but she just eats my Roy and Windy away ;_;

 

[T-block]

I haven't fought a good Jiggs, but I bet u-tilt and f-tilt, as well as f-air/b-air, would do a decent job at zoning her out. Running u-smash might be good to get relatively early kills if they're being aggressive?

 

[SpaceJell0]

I've had trouble fighting Marios, that guaranteed DownThrow combo is pretty annoying and I have to play super campy to beat one.

 

[Lord Exor]

Bowser Jr. is lamentably one of the most middling characters in the game, without any real answers to a good majority of the cast. At even skill levels, Bowser Jr. is guaranteed to suffer in many match-ups despite what on-paper must seem like a multitudinous array of tools.

It's sad, but I see little evidence to substantiate a repudiation. If a character has to toil doubly as hard to win, then he's a substandard choice. He may stand a better chance with customs permitted, but even still I fear for his future. Sakurai remains ill-fit to balance this series.

 

[tekkie]

pikachu will be a difficult matchup, i'm sure

rolling is also much better in sm4sh than brawl/any other smash game from what i've gathered, and BJ doesn't punish rolls well

 

[Lord Exor]

He can easily punish rolls with Drift Kart.

 

[Kushamo]

He can easily punish rolls with Drift Kart.

It doesn't come out fast enough to punish on reaction, though. If an opponent rolls into you during the car dash, it's on them.

 

[kupo15]

Well, bad news as far as wii u is concerned, the up B recovery is still ridiculously gimpable despite being fixed in 3ds.
Though as a tradeoff they seem to have more attacking power too...

I never played the 3ds version but I thought this at first but then I realized you can tap a or shield and get the clown back and do another up b unless I'm missing something

 

[NidoMay]

I never played the 3ds version but I thought this at first but then I realized you can tap a or shield and get the clown back and do another up b unless I'm missing something

With stronger hits, that works but it seems that moves like megavitamins and flamethrower can ruin it. Basically before the 3ds patch and with the wii u, you could foil their recovery by hitting them with a move that doesn't cause any real knockback.

 

[kupo15]

With stronger hits, that works but it seems that moves like megavitamins and flamethrower can ruin it. Basically before the 3ds patch and with the wii u, you could foil their recovery by hitting them with a move that doesn't cause any real knockback.

Oh you mean flinch hits. I'll have to check that out

 

[NidoMay]

Oh you mean flinch hits. I'll have to check that out

Yeah those.
I think now in the 3ds version when you get hit by a flinch move you just get it back automatically. Haven't been able to on wii u.

 

[CCCM89]

given that cart into hoped nair into f-tilt can come out very quickly, he can be just as aggressive as sonic at long distances. Only difference is bowser jr. has more options out of his side-special.

 

[Funkermonster]

given that cart into hoped nair into f-tilt can come out very quickly, he can be just as aggressive as sonic at long distances. Only difference is bowser jr. has more options out of his side-special.

More Options? Sonic can cancel his spin into a shield, grab, jump cancel it, upB, spinshot, and do a little hop before he unleashes his sideb. Dunno why you think Junior has more options out of his side b when he can hardly do any of that, Sonic can do just most if not all of the same stuff junior can out of his sideb. Sonic can't recover with his sideb the way Junior can though, I'll give him that.