Competitive Viability

[Kushamo]

Not viable.

Care to elaborate on why you say so?

 

[Meek Moths]

um do i have to?

 

[NidoMay]

Well... yeah.

I mean, the whole thread is meant to be for analysis. A broad statement like that doesn't mean anything unless you explain it properly.

 

[Meek Moths]

i always choose random in 1 on 1 for glory and everytime i get a koopaling i lose hes just to weak

 

[NidoMay]

Well since I made a thread I sorta-regret, I've seen plenty of pilots beating even the likes of Captain Falcon and other characters like that.

I'm NOT an example of a good player but I'm sure there's a few people in this thread that'd be glad to show you a thing or two.

 

[MikeyAM]

i always choose random in 1 on 1 for glory and everytime i get a koopaling i lose hes just to weak

The discussion here is about competitive viability, which means, basically: If I put some time in with this character, could I take him to tournaments/ladder and perform well with him on a consistent basis? If so, how would I go about doing that?

Not to diminish your experience with the character, but playing him exclusively as a random selection on For Glory doesn't really answer either of those questions because a) you haven't put the time in to learn the character (nor are you trying to, by playing random), and b) while For Glory is a good way to practice, it's not really competitive for a number of reasons (e.g. opponent skill level, lag, FD only, etc.).

I've found BJR to be pretty rewarding of the time I've spent playing him. I've improved with him and haven't found a weakness that would be prohibitive of him being competitive. If you play him more, I'm sure you'll find that he's better than you initially thought.

 

[T-block]

I HAVE LOST FAITH AGAIN

I think he's really good in some matchups, but I would be very surprised if we ever see solo Koopalings winning tournaments. I took first at a local pseudo-tourney today playing mostly Iggy, but I had to switch to Greninja for Sheik.

Didn't come up against a Rosalina this time, but I'd definitely switch for her too =(

 

[NidoMay]

Just a couple more things I noticed during some training sessions, maybe could do with verification?
- Koopa Kart seems useful against rosaluma, since it bowls through both of them.
- Mechakoopas can stop a spindashing Sonic in his tracks, might be good for punishment.
- It seems if you're fast enough you can lead a dodge roll right into upsmash, roll "into" the opponent then do it. Might be a way of getting KOs if used sparingly, could catch foes off-guard.
- In terms of Link spammers, would jumping and dropping a mechakoopa right on or behind them be good for punishment?
If anyone could try those things online or such, that'd be a help. I got lots to do today so I can't...

 

[meleebrawler]

If someone reflects your mechakoopa while it's walking, you can drive through it
with no ill effects .

 

[NidoMay]

If someone reflects your mechakoopa while it's walking, you can drive through it
with no ill effects .

I think the move has a super armour effect on the lower half of the car, I've sometimes in training been able to drive over dr Mario's pills and sometimes not, considering they bounce a lot... Also, two mechakoopas don't cancel each other out so in this Koopa Clown Car mirror matches, that's a handy bit to know, especially if they haven't found that out. >:D

 

[Overmaster]

If Bowser Jr. had an easier time confirming kills, he'd be much stronger. As it is, a lot of his non-180% killing moves suffer from two things: Leaving us vulnerable and being predictable.

That's a BAD combination.

And while having a (incredibly) strong aerial during fallstate seems like it would at least make using the Clown Car explosion a safe try, it's not going to hold water in competitive tournaments. Your opponent just needs to bait it like an air dodge! The ending lag is insane! Oh well. Still a fun guy.

 

[Meek Moths]

The discussion here is about competitive viability, which means, basically: If I put some time in with this character, could I take him to tournaments/ladder and perform well with him on a consistent basis? If so, how would I go about doing that?

Not to diminish your experience with the character, but playing him exclusively as a random selection on For Glory doesn't really answer either of those questions because a) you haven't put the time in to learn the character (nor are you trying to, by playing random), and b) while For Glory is a good way to practice, it's not really competitive for a number of reasons (e.g. opponent skill level, lag, FD only, etc.).

I've found BJR to be pretty rewarding of the time I've spent playing him. I've improved with him and haven't found a weakness that would be prohibitive of him being competitive. If you play him more, I'm sure you'll find that he's better than you initially thought.

 

[guedes the brawler]

Just a couple more things I noticed during some training sessions, maybe could do with verification?
- Koopa Kart seems useful against rosaluma, since it bowls through both of them.

Luma Shot/10

 

[MM720]

I'd say he's fairly decent. The Mechakoopas help with spacing as well as block some attacks like Falcon/Ganon's side Bs completely. The Clown Cannon (neutral B) is nice for edgeguarding and can make pressure when mixed with the Mechakoopas, but it generally slow and should be used as egeguarding OR when the opponent is a slow character (and far away from you). Clown Kart Dash has lots of potential since you can use it to mix-up your recovery options (I've noticed that some people don't really make use of the fact that you can jump with it when recovering).

His aerials are good too. Uair is ridiculously fast and can juggle. fair has lots of range but also some lag. dair, bair and nair are decent but nothing spectacular IMO (does dair spike? It doesn't look that way......)

He kinda suffers from the same problem as Megaman though in that he relies on projectiles and aerials to kill. His smashes are pretty slow and punishable.

I'd say he's solid mid tier at the moment.

 

[Lord Exor]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9UZ-bzSJAY&list=FLqDTzEXo6CLflINsMCqvi4Q&index=2 And Bowser Jr. takes a tournament win.

 

[platomaker]

Before I can really comment, I gotta ask- when you say "competitive" are we talking about custom moves as well? I came in to learn a few quick combos to use and maybe some new set ups with the mechakoopas.

 

[NidoMay]

Luma Shot/10

Possible. But if you see it coming you can just jump/airdodge it and now she's separated from the meat shield!

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Possible. But if you see it coming you can just jump/airdodge it and now she's separated from the meat shield!

Actually, you can also block it as well. Luma Shot doesn't cause a lot of shieldstun/shield damage, and even at the weakest charge, it goes a far distance. This is a good thing, because it means that while you are blocking, the Luma will probably pass through you, as it only immediately stops if it hits someone or it is hit itself. And after using Luma Shot, both Rosalina and Luma are unable to act for a while since it surprisingly has a good amount of lag after it.

This is beneficial with how quickly you can act out of shield in Smash 4. Since in a situation where you block the Luma and it passes through you, you now have two options:

1) If the Luma that passed through you ends up being near the edge, chase the Luma at hit it. Most of the time, this leads to a free KO to get rid of the Luma, leaving Rosalina a bit more vulnerable for a brief amount of time.

2) If the Luma that passed through you isn't near the ledge, or in a situation you think you can't punish the Luma in time/etc, go after Rosalina instead. Or you can go after her if she has more damage/you think that she will predict you are going to attack the Luma. She lags a bit after using Luma Shot too, meaning that she is also weak to being punished. Furthermore, if you hit her while she is trying to recall her Luma, it actually makes the Luma stop returning to her for a brief period of time.

Of course, smart Rosalina players are mostly going to keep their Lumas with them 90% of the time, and will only really use Luma Shot as an edgeguarding/KO move. But whenever a Rosalina haphazardly uses their Luma Shot, use the above strategy to punish her hard/kill the Luma.

You can also jump/airdodge it too, like you said. Was just mentioning that acting out of shield can be a faster way of punishing her sometimes, lol

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

People saying Bowser Jr/Koopalings are gonna be top tier or top tier in the Wii U. Please don't make me laugh any harder then you already have. Big Wendy main here and have played tournaments with her and Wii Fit. Once people learn the match up it becomes extremely difficult. Koopalings can only do so much. Items stop side B and mecha koopas become predictable against high tier players as well as Up-B shenanigans. Yes Koopalings are a solid character but I doubt they'll be in the high tier let alone he top tier category. Maybe pivot smash attacks being more easier(possibly) on the Wii U will make Koopalings better but other then that they aren't gonna be up there on the tier list or in usage.

 

[Kushamo]

One question I have for other Junior players is how much you've noticed his damage mitigating hitboxes? It doesn't effect the knockback he takes, and in the month I've been trying him out I haven't noticed it very much. Do you think +/- 15% rather insignificant, or have opponents just not yet learned to take advantage of it? In a whole stock it might just make a difference of one hit, but in close matches it could be all that's between a win and a loss.

 

[UliWa]

I been using bowser jr in tourney with wario he has been saving me vs certain characters like marth and shiek. I learned that klown kart should only be ussed as a suprised attack or for mobility or mind games. I think he is a really strong character

 

[NidoMay]

The talk in the tidbits/tips threads gives me a thought:

Maybe for our fledgeling clown car pilots we could compile an edgeguarding matchup of sorts? It seems they can drop mechakoopas on some characters, bomb others with abandon ship, harass some via fairs and ftilts and the fsmash can actually be angled downwards. Some seem to work better than others in certain situations, for instance Bowser seems to be a good target for fair but pretty much goes over mechakoopas, which would themselves seem to be an option for edgeguarding against Ike safely without having to worry about suicide-meteors from Aether.

Just like a guide on what works best on who? I think a lot of their game involves knowing how the opponent works and countering that and this'd be a help anyway!

 

[BBNik]

I HAVE LOST FAITH AGAIN

I think he's really good in some matchups, but I would be very surprised if we ever see solo Koopalings winning tournaments. I took first at a local pseudo-tourney today playing mostly Iggy, but I had to switch to Greninja for Sheik.

Didn't come up against a Rosalina this time, but I'd definitely switch for her too =(

Tbf, oracle went to finals and initially used rob where he lost to Mario. Then he switched to BJr and won.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

With some character balance changes going into the next patch this month, what kind of alterations are you hoping Junior and the Koopalings will receive?

 

[Conda]

We'll have to wait and see, it's too hypothetical to lead anywhere really. That's a good idea for a different thread though.

 

[NidoMay]

Personally, I'm hoping the drills do much more shield damage or can be prolonged like in the trailer!

 

[T-block]

I think just ONE change that would improve Bowser Jr. significantly is to make his hop out of side-b just a normal jump (ie- let him short hop or full hop, and let him double jump out of it, etc.)

Or let him shield out of side-b lol could you imagine

 

[HammerHappy]

None whatsoever. He's solid.

Or make the fireball in his taunt deal like 1 damage just in case I want to **** with anyone after I break their shield.

 

[Lord Exor]

I think side-b 2 will make him more viable honestly.

 

[Conda]

I think just ONE change that would improve Bowser Jr. significantly is to make his hop out of side-b just a normal jump (ie- let him short hop or full hop, and let him double jump out of it, etc.)

Or let him shield out of side-b lol could you imagine

The fact that Side B gives him a third jump is amazing and what makes the move so good, option for a 'use up the doublejump' and 'you're not able to jump out of kart if you don't have a double jump available' would decrease the worth of the move. You have to be smart and double jump first if you need to before using kart, that's not a big deal.

The fact that it grants you a new jump after you've used the double jump is priceless and very important to his competitive play.

 

[T-block]

The fact that Side B gives him a third jump is amazing and what makes the move so good, option for a 'use up the doublejump' and 'you're not able to jump out of kart if you don't have a double jump available' would decrease the worth of the move. You have to be smart and double jump first if you need to before using kart, that's not a big deal.

The fact that it grants you a new jump after you've used the double jump is priceless and very important to his competitive play.

Oh, actually I agree wholeheartedly... I wasn't thinking of using it in the air when I said that.

Then I guess I want a normal jump for hop out of GROUNDED kart, while hop out of aerial kart would remain the same or something idk =x

I just feel that side-b, as useful as it is now, could have been so much better =(

 

[HammerHappy]

Honestly I think side B is fine the way it is. The dynamic it adds to his movement options alone is invaluable.

A more QOL change I find would be to give some sort of notification as to when Bowser Jr. can air dodge to get his clown car back after being hit out of up B. Sometimes I can recover it and sometimes I drop like a sack of bricks.

Perhaps an exclamation point would do?

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Bowser Jr. is completely vulnerable to USmash kills due to his bad aerials. Nair can't hit down, and Fair and Nair can't hit inside of his hitbox. Dair is too slow to be reliable and can easily punish you. Landing is a risk with him if someone is tracking you.

 

[HammerHappy]

Bowser Jr. is completely vulnerable to USmash kills due to his bad aerials. Nair can't hit down, and Fair and Nair can't hit inside of his hitbox. Dair is too slow to be reliable and can easily punish you. Landing is a risk with him if someone is tracking you.

Anyone stupid enough to Usmash under Bowser Jr. is going to eat a car and possibly a hammer for dessert.

Even ignoring that he can just side B and still has a third jump if they track that.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Anyone stupid enough to Usmash under Bowser Jr. is going to eat a car and possibly a hammer for dessert.

Even ignoring that he can just side B and still has a third jump if they track that.

Up B into Hammer is the best way to stop a Peach from tracking you. It does have good range and a hit arc. But it's also fairly risky. But Peach is a pain since her USmash hits past her fingertips and Mario's just feels awkward since the range comes from behind.

 

[NidoMay]

I think if anything gets patched, maybe some super-armour on UpB when it starts? It'd be a great way to slip out of a bad situation and seeing as he's usually rather easy to combo would be a good breaker!

 

[Weeman]

I played a really good Bowser Jr. player and i think he is definitely viable, the Mecha Koopa offers great stage control, cancelling his side B with jumps leads to some pretty aggressive approaches that can be sometimes overwhelming, and his Up B leads to some great Anti Juggle manouvers and surprise kills, especially oos.

 

[Nergal69]

Yeah, I agree that the Clown Car Kart isn't THAT amazing and options are kinda limited. I especially think that his Dair is kinda overrated. =\

His D-air is only great when it works. The ending lag makes it very punishable. But if it works, following up with a dash attack is very nice, indeed.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Dair is good for two things.

>Punish people who shield Side B and open their shields.
>Gimping players or damaging them while they low-recover.

Side B is good for mixups and quick damage. Also for chasing down players from being hit by Mechakoopa's explosion.

 

[Tater]

Been playing around with the new update for a bit, haven't seen any changes to Jr's moveset except one I'm not sure about... Have you always been able to B-reverse clown car? From what I remember when I tried to B-reverse it I just immediately spun out but my memory's fuzzy.