Meta Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion

[ParanoidDrone]

Well, at least you had one event with custom moves tried out, the players in my area are more into a strictly competitive style of play.

Implying customs are inherently noncompetitive?

With Apex setting a copy&paste standard it seems like custom moves will be DoA, unless... I do have a way to combat herd mentality and allow for optional rules to make their way into mainstream usage I used back in the Brawl days, but it would take some organization.

Please share, we're all ears.

 

[T0MMY]

Implying customs are inherently noncompetitive?
That is pretty much the mindset of a lot of players in my area.
In the Standard Ruleset I helped designed it is very much open to having customization either on or off as it is not reasonable to state one over the other.

Please share, we're all ears.

I used to run something called Smash Community Representatives (SCR) when Brawl started off and I headed a private group over on AllisBrawl to help organize communication of the heads of each region. I had all regions of west coast on board and various parts of the rest of the nation getting together but it was probably a little ahead of its time because most regions did not have any kind of solid organization where TO's were coming and going and most players were not interested in doing anything other than playing.
But now it could work out a lot better since it seems the Smash Community has had some time to settle people into places where they are comfortable and established.

The short of it is that all I do is contact the people of each region and get them talking about what each region is doing in regards to rules (mostly the settings and if any optional rules are warranted). What happens is that this communication facilitates a more unifying experience with little effort.
I have talked with some people and they have brought some good ideas that will help promote a more unifying approach to rules that avoids a messy dictatorship-like command.

 

[Chimera]

Can someone update me on the status of the thread? I really don't want to read 22 pages worth of stuff. I've seen the Apex ruleset. What's the consensus on that?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Can someone update me on the status of the thread? I really don't want to read 22 pages worth of stuff. I've seen the Apex ruleset. What's the consensus on that?

Consensus is that the Apex ruleset sucks for a variety of reasons. Small stage list, only 3 starter stages, 2 stocks, no customs, and the suicide rule was ambiguously worded for a while but I think that was fixed.

 

[Chimera]

Consensus is that the Apex ruleset sucks for a variety of reasons. Small stage list, only 3 starter stages, 2 stocks, no customs, and the suicide rule was ambiguously worded for a while but I think that was fixed.

Ok good to know. I saw the ruleset and was not a fan.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I'm fine with 2 stocks btw.
What I don't understand is why 2s-6m.

I know that with 5 minutes matches often go to timeout on FG, but still, no lag+ no flat stage helps with a more dynamic gameplay.

Plus, why even choose 2 stocks if they're not going to follow the FG format?

 

[Thinkaman]

Again throwing in sentiment that I don't think 2 stocks is flawed or evil, and it's a reasonable thing to prefer, but it seems unpopular and is certainly unnecessary.

 

[DanGR]

I think the Apex ruleset's faults are over-exaggerated. I've got a long write-up coming soon(ish) detailing why I think the ruleset is quite solid for Sm4sh's first international tournament.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I think the Apex ruleset's faults are over-exaggerated. I've got a long write-up coming soon(ish) detailing why I think the ruleset is quite solid for Sm4sh's first international tournament.

I look forward to it, but I'll be very impressed if you can explain the stage list and small number of starters. (Not that I agree with starter/CP distinction but that's a completely different dead horse.)

 

[Uniit]

For me, every thing in the apex ruleset can be explained, like : Red/blue color team? For color blind people. Only 3 starters? Maybe they think that there is no 5th starter stage (aka lylat/duckhunt are CP). Short stage list? Keeps things simple. 2 Stock? No time for 3. Etc...

Well, the ruleset isn't perfect, and I'm not pleased with many of this (primarly 2stock and 3 starters) and understand pretty well that people would change things like custom moves or stage list, but it's actually not that bad and makes sense.

 

[Piford]

For me, every thing in the apex ruleset can be explained, like : Red/blue color team? For color blind people. Only 3 starters? Maybe they think that there is no 5th starter stage (aka lylat/duckhunt are CP). Short stage list? Keeps things simple. 2 Stock? No time for 3. Etc...

Well, the ruleset isn't perfect, and I'm not pleased with many of this (primarly 2stock and 3 starters) and understand pretty well that people would change things like custom moves or stage list, but it's actually not that bad and makes sense.

They have Lylat as a starter in Brawl so clearly its starter material. It's Town and City they don't think is starter material.

 

[LiteralGrill]

They have Lylat as a starter in Brawl so clearly its starter material. It's Town and City they don't think is starter material.

Their comments to me on twitter say they somehow don't think Lylat works in Smash 4 for some unexplainable reason :/

Plus, @ Uniit 3 starters make striking for the first stage unfair as well, making it not a great decision.

 

[Uniit]

For Lylat, maybe it's because of the hop when the stage tilt... I don't really know.

Sure I would prefer it to be 5 starters, but just commenting that the apex ruleset isn't perfect, but not as bad as people picturing it.

 

[iVoltage]

Hey sorry for the dumb question but, How does counter picking and banning work in a tournament? When do you do these things, and can you switch up your character anytime you want or are there rules on that. I haven't been to a tournament and I couldn't find any rules on this. Thanks!

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Hey sorry for the dumb question but, How does counter picking and banning work in a tournament? When do you do these things, and can you switch up your character anytime you want or are there rules on that. I haven't been to a tournament and I couldn't find any rules on this. Thanks!

Game 1 is double blind characters and 1-2-...-2-1 stage striking (for however many stages are allowed for game 1) where players take turns striking stages until only one is left. The character selection is generally just done on the honor system, but players can request true double blind (write your choice on a piece of paper and give to a third party) if they want.

For all subsequent games, the winner of the previous game bans one or more stages, whatever number the rules stipulate. The loser then picks a stage. The winner then picks their character, followed by the loser. The procedure for custom moves is less defined since they're so new, but the general consensus seems to be winner picks their customs after the loser picks their character, then the loser picks their own customs.

The exact details may vary slightly per tournament, but that's the general procedure.

 

[Pazx]

Well, at least you had one event with custom moves tried out, the players in my area are more into a strictly competitive style of play. At one tournament the general rules allowed for the use of custom moves yet nobody used them (except the TO) that I played.

Poor word choice, customs are in no way less competitive than vanilla Sm4sh.

In regards to the stock discussion 6 minutes is superior to 5 as the lower the time limit the more likely it is for timeouts to become a valid strategy. The more of the game I play and watch the more I feel as though 2 stock is the better number.

In regards to the depth vs breadth discussion as far as custom moves are concerned I'd like to repeat something small that Ampharos said. Custom moves will increase depth AND breadth.

Allowing the most options will, naturally, optimally allow the deepest things in the game to exist and eventually exert themselves at the top

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

My opinion on the breadth vs depth debate is that I don't think a lot of breadth is bad, as long as you present people options that look like they will net the best results in the long run, even if the opposite may be true. That's why I like the Custom Moveset Project, even if Sakurai gave us all customs off the bat, I feel like most people wouldn't experiment very much with them at first and just parrot what they think works. Having custom presets limits the options somewhat and makes it easier for people to decide on what works when, especially in this age of the internet where people can now watch daily what strategies they believe will work.

It may take years of people overlooking one custom before suddenly something is found that changes their worth in the meta game. But I'm fine with customs not being exploited to it's fullest potential at first, when you have so many options one is bound to be ignored in the beginning.

Heck, Melee has a lot of viable characters, yet it took many years for them to actually be exploited to their fullest potential. It's just the nature of things. People gravitate to the safe stuff while the few experimenters do things in the sidelines.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

My opinion on the breadth vs depth debate is that I don't think a lot of breadth is bad, as long as you present people options that look like they will net the best results in the long run, even if the opposite may be true. That's why I like the Custom Moveset Project, even if Sakurai gave us all customs off the bat, I feel like most people wouldn't experiment very much with them at first and just parrot what they think works. Having custom presets limits the options somewhat and makes it easier for people to decide on what works when, especially in this age of the internet where people can now watch daily what strategies they believe will work.

It may take years of people overlooking one custom before suddenly something is found that changes their worth in the meta game. But I'm fine with customs not being exploited to it's fullest potential at first, when you have so many options one is bound to be ignored in the beginning.

Heck, Melee has a lot of viable characters, yet it took many years for them to actually be exploited to their fullest potential. It's just the nature of things. People gravitate to the safe stuff while the few experimenters do things in the sidelines.

So basically choice paralysis? TV Tropes has the Quicksand Box and Alt-Itis as entries too, both of which seem related at a glance. I can see that.

I agree that a custom getting overlooked for a while isn't a concern at all, that's just metagame.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Generally most people are afraid of too many options, so you have to feed them knowledge in small chunks to make them feel comfortable.

And in the case of Smash bros, where Customs have never existed this presents a HUGE unknown that presents many exciting things, but scary things as well. It's good to just limit things for people, even if it can hurt at first.

My greatest hope is that once a reliable solution to the custom problem is found, we can do away with presets on the menu and just let people go wild. Thankfully that will be a long way off, so people can get used to customs. Nairo's recent video was definitely a good way to help this ease.

 

[Reaperfan]

Generally most people are afraid of too many options, so you have to feed them knowledge in small chunks to make them feel comfortable.

And in the case of Smash bros, where Customs have never existed this presents a HUGE unknown that presents many exciting things, but scary things as well. It's good to just limit things for people, even if it can hurt at first.

My greatest hope is that once a reliable solution to the custom problem is found, we can do away with presets on the menu and just let people go wild. Thankfully that will be a long way off, so people can get used to customs. Nairo's recent video was definitely a good way to help this ease.

Almost makes me think Sakurai may have implemented the infinite grind partially with this in mind. Forcing it as a gradual transition rather than an immediate overload. While a lot of us don't like it being forced on the community, others have made it clear that they'd rather not have it all dumped on them at once.

 

[T0MMY]

Poor word choice, customs are in no way less competitive than vanilla Sm4sh.

Meant to type "strict". Turned out ambiguous to some sensitive folk, I could see how it could be mistaken, but it was not meant to be an opinion of how much more or less "competitive" such settings are - please refer to my writings where I describe competition, which allows for either setting to be used "competitively".
And I was describing the attendees' views, not stating my own personal views on the matter, and hoping any similarities happened with others and solutions could be offered for the predicament.

However, it is this peculiar sensitivity that I think may need to be addressed - I think moving away from conflict and working more towards solutions is a far better process. Of course we've already seen how much more successful this strategy has worked out, so I say embrace it (see my offering of how to facilitate this in the same post).

 

[EmblemCrossing]

My friend is trying to argue that Smashville's platform adds luck into the match. He said that "it adds luck because the platform won't always be in the right space". I'm so confused on how to explain this to him. I tried stating that it's less polarizing to more characters, as projectile users can't dominate as they could on FD.

He's also saying it can mess up recoveries but, I'm pretty sure you shouldn't be screwed by Smashville's platforms.

He thinks it should be a cp :/

 

[Terotrous]

My friend is trying to argue that Smashville's platform adds luck into the match. He said that "it adds luck because the platform won't always be in the right space".

It's not "luck" because the position of the platform is deterministic. You can alter your strategy to take advantage of the current position of the platform rather than just hoping it happens to help you out.

 

[Piford]

My friend is trying to argue that Smashville's platform adds luck into the match. He said that "it adds luck because the platform won't always be in the right space". I'm so confused on how to explain this to him. I tried stating that it's less polarizing to more characters, as projectile users can't dominate as they could on FD.

He's also saying it can mess up recoveries but, I'm pretty sure you shouldn't be screwed by Smashville's platforms.

He thinks it should be a cp :/

Well there is a bit of luck of who starts next to the platform, but outside of the first 5 seconds it doesn't really matter. Tell him if he's that concerned with the platform to time it and look at the timer to know where it is.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Technically, the platform is not random, but it is not controllable.
Often you'll be at an favorable or unfavorable position depending on its current location, but it's mostly for not keeping track of it the whole time.

 

[Thinkaman]

Smashville: Neutral or Not?

...would make a great Onion article.

 

[M15t3R E]

My friend is trying to argue that Smashville's platform adds luck into the match. He said that "it adds luck because the platform won't always be in the right space". I'm so confused on how to explain this to him. I tried stating that it's less polarizing to more characters, as projectile users can't dominate as they could on FD.

He is partially right, but mostly wrong. The platform being nearby while recovering gives you an extra option to recover safely. That can be chalked up to luck, however, the platform's path is short and finite so this happening is not uncommon. The one platform there does not explicitly benefit any characters more than another to the point of offering a major competitive edge.

He's also saying it can mess up recoveries but, I'm pretty sure you shouldn't be screwed by Smashville's platforms.

He thinks it should be a cp :/

Brawl Pikachu comes to mind. I have thundered, not realizing the platform was there above me, and I expect the thunder to hit me and break my fall but the platform ate it up. In Smash 4, the top part of the bolt can pass through platforms so this is less likely. Other than that, no, it doesn't screw over recoveries. Like I mentioned above, it HELPS in recovering!

 

[_Magus_]

My friend is trying to argue that Smashville's platform adds luck into the match. He said that "it adds luck because the platform won't always be in the right space". I'm so confused on how to explain this to him. I tried stating that it's less polarizing to more characters, as projectile users can't dominate as they could on FD.

He's also saying it can mess up recoveries but, I'm pretty sure you shouldn't be screwed by Smashville's platforms.

He thinks it should be a cp :/

Is Yoshi's Story in Melee a CP? No? Well how can you justify classifying Yoshi's as a neutral and Smashville as a CP? Randall is far more "random" (I say this with a grain of salt as both platforms on both stages follow a pattern) than Smashville's platform.

Anyway, about the basic ruleset, I just wanted to throw in my two cents. From what I've seen and experienced, two stocks is NOT enough time to adjust to an opponent. This gives the advantage to players with an unorthodox strategy, allowing them to take the upper hand and win without holding it for too long. Now, I'm not against unorthodox strategies. I just think that the opponents of people who use them ought to be given more time to analyze and react to these strategies. Otherwise, the meta will become about doing the most unexpected thing possible to gain an initial advantage, and then holding that advantage for the rest of the game.

Also, having played MANY sets with 3 stocks, 8 min timer, I can say this works perfectly well, with most games actually being SHORTER than those in Brawl. So if Brawl games take longer, why did we keep Brawl's games at 3 stocks, 8 minutes?

I feel like the only reason we're having this discussion is that For Glory shaved the number of stocks down to 2. There's no other cause that I can see for this discussion. If FG had kept the stock count at 3, we'd be in agreement that 3 is perfect.

 

[ぱみゅ]

We shouldn't use Melee or Brawl or 64's average match duration to determine our ruleset.
64 is 64, Melee is Melee, Brawl is Brawl, and Smash4 is Samsh4.

That being said, actually like how short matches reward tricky gameplay, one shift and tables are turned. I at least like it more than watching unidimensional strategies for ~6 minutes. I don't dislike 3-stocks, nor think 2-stocks are better, but I certainly like what 2 stocks has to offer.

 

[BestTeaMaker]

We shouldn't use Melee or Brawl or 64's average match duration to determine our ruleset.
64 is 64, Melee is Melee, Brawl is Brawl, and Smash4 is Samsh4.

That being said, actually like how short matches reward tricky gameplay, one shift and tables are turned. I at least like it more than watching unidimensional strategies for ~6 minutes. I don't dislike 3-stocks, nor think 2-stocks are better, but I certainly like what 2 stocks has to offer.

I disagree about not looking at other games in the same series because it serves as a sort of way point. Of course the ruleset shouldn't depend on 64/Melee/Brawl's metagame, but it does allow us to compare time and mechanics to adjust. Which is why it confuses me as to why people are okay with Brawl being 3 stock but not for Smash 4, especially when Smash 4 shows much more aggression compared to Brawl.

This is just my opinion though, so let's not get into a 2 vs 3 war and just experiment with both. We're not even 2 months (3 for 3DS) into the life of this game. Let's not decide absolutes.

 

[ぱみゅ]

If we are going to compare and adjust due to time, then 2 (Smash4) and 3 (Brawl) stocks are fine because Smash 4 has like 10 times more attendants than Brawl.
Or, if you want a better example, we should make both games have 1 stock because most fighting games take like 40 seconds per round, finishing whole sets in like 4 minutes,


WHATEVERTHECASEIS, Brawl and Smash 4 both have independent rulesets, and whatever is decided for one, shouldn't matter for the other game. Also, don't make me get started with Brawl's calculated aggression vs. Smash4's still immature metagame.

 

[Pazx]

somebody used "aggression" and "brawl" in the same sentence and i'm here to take them away forever

 

[Thinkaman]

kyokoro, we're on the internet. This is a fantasyland where Brawl wasn't played competitively and aggressive play never happened, ever. Meta Knight. Tripping. Communism.

Edit: Forgot a healthy dose of "Sakurai hates us."

 

[Terotrous]

I feel that if we're going to do 2 stock, there is absolutely no negotiating on Winner's / Loser's / Grand Finals being 3 out of 5. For a huge tournament (ie, Apex), the entirety of Top 16 should probably be 3 out of 5.

However, my preference is still 2 stocks for pools / early rounds and 3 stocks for finals.

 

[Judo777]

Where are they discussing Mii legality. I want to contribute do that discussion? Can anyone help?

Also the platform is random only in the sense of which side it starts on.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Where are they discussing Mii legality. I want to contribute do that discussion? Can anyone help?

Also the platform is random only in the sense of which side it starts on.

I'd love to discuss Mii legality here, as currently Smash 4 Worldwide is having issues with it. It's almost a 50/50 split on if they should be legal or not in our poll. I personally do not think they should be banned, and I have a feeling "For Glory Bias" is strong in the results.

I am very interested in compromise possibly (since unrestricted Miis wont sit well with folks and I don't need people crazy upset with over 1000 sign ups). Is requiring Guest Miis (for default size and appearance) and having customs at 1-1-1-1, 2-2-2-2, and 3-3-3-3 a reasonable compromise to the players? We also had a smart idea as well. Players should be entitled to a blind pick, but forcing players to guess which moves the Miis are using once a match start is an unfair advantage. We were going to require Miis be named after their customs so after a quick glance at the screen players can know what is coming

Where's Dapuffster... @ Jigglymaster you are an expert on Miis, if it where up to you how would you do it, and would these rules be acceptable?

 

[Jigglymaster]

I'd love to discuss Mii legality here, as currently Smash 4 Worldwide is having issues with it. It's almost a 50/50 split on if they should be legal or not in our poll. I personally do not think they should be banned, and I have a feeling "For Glory Bias" is strong in the results.

I am very interested in compromise possibly (since unrestricted Miis wont sit well with folks and I don't need people crazy upset with over 1000 sign ups). Is requiring Guest Miis (for default size and appearance) and having customs at 1-1-1-1, 2-2-2-2, and 3-3-3-3 a reasonable compromise to the players? We also had a smart idea as well. Players should be entitled to a blind pick, but forcing players to guess which moves the Miis are using once a match start is an unfair advantage. We were going to require Miis be named after their customs so after a quick glance at the screen players can know what is coming

Where's Dapuffster... @ Jigglymaster you are an expert on Miis, if it where up to you how would you do it, and would these rules be acceptable?

Well there are 2 different rules that I would implement. Depending on the size of the tournament is which one should be chosen though.


Option 1: Mii Fighters and Palutena can use any loadout, but must stick with that loadout for the entire tournament. This is what is ran at Hitbox Arena which is a local sized tournament. It's easy to take track of in a small tournament but wouldn't be so viable in a regional or a national.

Option 2: Mii Fighters and Palutena can use 1111, 2222, and 3333. This is what I'd think be the best choice for a national or regional because it honestly would take now time at all to set up.

Both of these options btw would include the use of a Guest Mii, I don't know why they're restricted to guest A only (which is also stupid because all the guest miis are the same). Guest Mii's create default height/width, adding in height/weight adds in too many variables to consider. However at smaller tournaments you could probably import your own mii from a 3ds via Trust system that you're using the default height/width (because lets face it, we all want to see M2K, Reggie, and Hank Hill miis in tournament)

Now, here's the problem, regarding Option 2 (the more viable of the two options). APEX staff has told me that doing this causes a "slippery slope" that if you allow Mii Fighters to use their 2222 and 3333, you must do the same for Palutena. And because you do the same for Palutena you have to turn customization ON. And because you do that for some reason it warrants everybody else being able to use their 2222 and 3333s as well. Yet I don't understand the problem when there is a clear difference between starter customs and unlockable ones. People also state that this is unfair for the rest of the cast, but.... I don't see the problem with that? You can choose any character you want and everybody has the choice to use the Mii Fighter's 2222 and 3333 loadouts, nobody is at a disadvantage. Yeah, you can't use Mario's 2222 and 3333, but nobody else can either. It's like saying you're in an arena, fighting for the death, and you have to choose a weapon, there are bunch of weapons to choose from but one has the option to add spikes onto it, however, it's banned because none of the other weapons have the option to add spikes onto them, even though this weapon is available for both sides.

I'd like to think the reasoning behind while people call it unfair is because they haven't put in the time to learn how to fight the Mii Fighters when they're viable characters and they don't want to. Everybody is also afraid to main them because of their current banned status. Meaning the people who would really benefit from this are the people who put the time into maining Mii Fighters regardless (like myself).

So how do we fix that? We need to allow these loadouts so that other people don't regret putting time into these characters and allow them to be learned. Then over time these loadouts will be accepted into the competitive community and many people will use them like real characters. I know it sounds selfish since it would practically mean I would become a top level player for a short period of time (until people learned and understood the character enough to combat against it), but if this isn't done it will never be done. I'm also willing to make a tutorial and do everything I can to teach people how to use this character. I want people to stop believing that I'm the only one who can main Mii Brawler. I want other people to use him too and have him added into the Metagame.

 

[Thinkaman]

If we absolutely must, putting the Official Community Recommended Sets on and not allowing anything else is strictly superior to all other alternatives.

Any Set > Only OCRS > Only 1111/2222/3333 > Only Defaults

There is no reason to do anything less than OCRS, except poor TOing.

 

[Jigglymaster]

If we absolutely must, putting the Official Community Recommended Sets on and not allowing anything else is strictly superior to all other alternatives.

Any Set > Only OCRS > Only 1111/2222/3333 > Only Defaults

There is no reason to do anything less than OCRS, except poor TOing.

I'm not 100% sure on the OCRS yet. There is still a lot of undiscovered tech with the Mii Fighters and as of right now the OCRS for Brawler is 1122 and 1132, even though I use 2122 now and it hasn't been updated yet.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm not 100% sure on the OCRS yet. There is still a lot of undiscovered tech with the Mii Fighters and as of right now the OCRS for Brawler is 1122 and 1132, even though I use 2122 now and it hasn't been updated yet.

Let me put it this way:

Any Set > Only "Dream Optimal" OCRS > Only "Today's Best Guess" OCRS > Only 1111/2222/3333 > Only Defaults

Something is better than nothing--especially on characters like Robin or Bowser where the sets people want to use are obvious, or characters like Palutena, WFT, or Ganon, where even a rudimentary guess offers a vast improvement.

OCRS isn't perfect and needs more community-led evolution, but that doesn't mean we should only use crappy 2222/3333 custom sets instead.

Using them is how we make sure they evolve and become what top players truly want available, after all.