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Meta Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion

LiteralGrill

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@Jigglymaster thank you so much for that detailed writeup. I have a feeling default size/1-1-1-1, 2-2-2-2, 3-3-3-3 is probably what may happen. I hope a few solid Mii mains can show up and show people what the character is about in a tournament with 1000s of people. Unfortunately we're online so we can't risk having customs on to allow Palutena her moves as well which is incredibly saddening.

I'd love all customs on, but online and stupid equipment hurt us on that front. I'd also love to just leave Miis unrestricted but I know I gotta compromise when the vote for them is very split.

It is really annoying that it's hard to focus on Miis and main them due to TOs treating rulings poorly. Even though it's online hopefully Smash 4 Worldwide can show folks Miis can work.
 
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Thinkaman

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Yeah, the online environment is pretty obnoxious for customs due to equipment. Replay inspection should make it possible, but not really feasible.
 

Captain Norris

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Sorry, but could someone please message me a well-written explanation on stage selection? I need one to use for an online tournament thread, and I am pretty bad at explaining.
 

Pazx

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Sorry, but could someone please message me a well-written explanation on stage selection? I need one to use for an online tournament thread, and I am pretty bad at explaining.
This is just copy/paste from something I wrote up awhile ago but here ya go, it's basically what we've been using for all smash games for awhile (read: YEARS) now. Rule 7 is subjective, though, so it's up to you to choose how many bans are adequate for whatever number of stages you run.. Also, look into Full List Stage Striking (which means you strike from all legal stages rather than just "starter" stages).


Set Procedure

1. Player Priority is determined if it cannot be determined (see below)
2. Each player selects one controller port
3. Each player selects one character. A double blind pick may be called by either player
4. The first game is played on a Stage selected from the Starter Stage List through the Stage Striking Method. The order of Stage Striking will be 1-2-1 (Player 1 strikes one stage, Player 2 strikes two stages, Player 1 strikes one stage and the match is played on the remaining stage)
5. The first match is played
6. The player that lost the previous match may opt to re-pick controller ports
7. The player that won the previous match may announce X "Stage Bans"
nb. With 8 or fewer legal stages 1 stage ban is allocated, with 9 or greater legal stages 2 stage bans are allocated
8. The player that lost the previous match announces the stage for the next match from either the Starter or the Counterpick Stage List. Any Stage named as a "Stage Ban" by either player may not be selected. A player may not counterpick to the last stage they have won on in the current set
9. The player that won the previous match chooses their character
10. The player that lost the previous match chooses their character
11. The next match is played
12. Repeat steps 6-11 for all remaining matches in the set

Determining Player Priority
If there is a dispute in controller port selection or initiating Stage Strike use the following method:
Players will use a random method such as Rock-Paper-Scissors, Coin Flip, or Game and Watch Judgment, where the winner selects either first choice in port selection or first choice in stage striking. Whichever player does not receive first choice in port selection will be compensated with first choice in stage striking.
Note: In Doubles, port selection is ordered 1-2-2-1 fashion (with Team-1 having first choice in controller slot select, Team-2 having both second and third choice, and the final slot going to Team-1).

Misc. Rules

1. The Gentleman Rule: Players may play on any stage, including banned stages, if all players in the match agree to it. If there is a dispute, standard procedure is followed.
2. The Colourblind Rule: During doubles matches, a player on either team can elect to have the opposing team change either their team colour or their characters's palette swap so that they match (eg. players on Blue Team must use Blue colours for their character)


If the stage selection bit isn't clear I'll put it in less formal terms.

Start with an odd number of stages to strike from (preferably 5, 9, 13 or 17), turn them on in random stage select/write on paper/whatever
5 stages striking procedure = 1-2-1
Player 1 turns off 1 stage
Player 2 turns off 2 stages
Player 1 turns off 1 stage/chooses from the remaining two stages which to play on.

For 9:
1-2-2-2-1 (P1 P2 P1 P2 P1)

etc

after game 1 the winner bans a number of stages and the loser picks from the rest
 
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Terotrous

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Honestly, I don't buy the argument that if Miis can use 1111 / 2222 / 3333 then Palutena has to get that as well. The Miis are custom characters that the game treats separately from all other characters, and they can use their custom moves even if custom characters are turned off.
 

Judo777

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I feel like special exceptions cant be made for palutena. She needs to have the same treatment as the other characters (despite her being really bad without customs). Other than that I am neutral on customs moves being legal or not. I kinda would like to see custom moves, but Im nothorribly upset if it doesn't pan out.

However MIi weight and height i am very strongly opinionated on. The weights and height between specific miis (each type brawler, swordsman and gunner can be different) has to be the same. Otherwise it is not practical to learn the properties of the characters in specific MU's (without practically maining the characters). Its impractical to try and learn frame advantage, kill percents, geometry (what Miis are taller enough to hit through platforms) of changing heights and weights.

I would be ok with either guest Miis (which does solve a lot of issues easily) or even agreed upon height and weight (and probably visual appearance to be safe) of each one. But it has to be ACROSS the BOARD.
 

Thinkaman

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I feel like special exceptions cant be made for palutena. She needs to have the same treatment as the other characters (despite her being really bad without customs). Other than that I am neutral on customs moves being legal or not. I kinda would like to see custom moves, but Im nothorribly upset if it doesn't pan out.

However MIi weight and height i am very strongly opinionated on. The weights and height between specific miis (each type brawler, swordsman and gunner can be different) has to be the same. Otherwise it is not practical to learn the properties of the characters in specific MU's (without practically maining the characters). Its impractical to try and learn frame advantage, kill percents, geometry (what Miis are taller enough to hit through platforms) of changing heights and weights.

I would be ok with either guest Miis (which does solve a lot of issues easily) or even agreed upon height and weight (and probably visual appearance to be safe) of each one. But it has to be ACROSS the BOARD.
I feel like the only sane approach is to require default size and weight.

It's one thing to take a whopping 30 seconds to make a new custom net.

It's another to take 10 times as long exiting out of the game, going into the mii maker, doing each step of making a mii, rebooting the game, and resetting tourney rules. That's just not remotely reasonable.
 

Captain Norris

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This is just copy/paste from something I wrote up awhile ago but here ya go, it's basically what we've been using for all smash games for awhile (read: YEARS) now. Rule 7 is subjective, though, so it's up to you to choose how many bans are adequate for whatever number of stages you run.. Also, look into Full List Stage Striking (which means you strike from all legal stages rather than just "starter" stages).


Set Procedure

1. Player Priority is determined if it cannot be determined (see below)
2. Each player selects one controller port
3. Each player selects one character. A double blind pick may be called by either player
4. The first game is played on a Stage selected from the Starter Stage List through the Stage Striking Method. The order of Stage Striking will be 1-2-1 (Player 1 strikes one stage, Player 2 strikes two stages, Player 1 strikes one stage and the match is played on the remaining stage)
5. The first match is played
6. The player that lost the previous match may opt to re-pick controller ports
7. The player that won the previous match may announce X "Stage Bans"
nb. With 8 or fewer legal stages 1 stage ban is allocated, with 9 or greater legal stages 2 stage bans are allocated
8. The player that lost the previous match announces the stage for the next match from either the Starter or the Counterpick Stage List. Any Stage named as a "Stage Ban" by either player may not be selected. A player may not counterpick to the last stage they have won on in the current set
9. The player that won the previous match chooses their character
10. The player that lost the previous match chooses their character
11. The next match is played
12. Repeat steps 6-11 for all remaining matches in the set

Determining Player Priority
If there is a dispute in controller port selection or initiating Stage Strike use the following method:
Players will use a random method such as Rock-Paper-Scissors, Coin Flip, or Game and Watch Judgment, where the winner selects either first choice in port selection or first choice in stage striking. Whichever player does not receive first choice in port selection will be compensated with first choice in stage striking.
Note: In Doubles, port selection is ordered 1-2-2-1 fashion (with Team-1 having first choice in controller slot select, Team-2 having both second and third choice, and the final slot going to Team-1).

Misc. Rules

1. The Gentleman Rule: Players may play on any stage, including banned stages, if all players in the match agree to it. If there is a dispute, standard procedure is followed.
2. The Colourblind Rule: During doubles matches, a player on either team can elect to have the opposing team change either their team colour or their characters's palette swap so that they match (eg. players on Blue Team must use Blue colours for their character)


If the stage selection bit isn't clear I'll put it in less formal terms.

Start with an odd number of stages to strike from (preferably 5, 9, 13 or 17), turn them on in random stage select/write on paper/whatever
5 stages striking procedure = 1-2-1
Player 1 turns off 1 stage
Player 2 turns off 2 stages
Player 1 turns off 1 stage/chooses from the remaining two stages which to play on.

For 9:
1-2-2-2-1 (P1 P2 P1 P2 P1)

etc

after game 1 the winner bans a number of stages and the loser picks from the rest
thanks for all the help! You explained it a lot better than I would have (although some of the stuff will be ignored due to online battling)
 

Thinkaman

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A cross-post from Facebook. I've posted all of this before here in some vein, but whatever:

Hey guys, between spare moments I did some quick math based on the the last barwars stream footage to give an idea how how stock count affects event length in our community.

I looked at the 2nd half of the previous event, which spanned from winner's semis through grand finals. (Actually a bit more than half the tourney: 5 bracket-stages/sets spanning 17 games, taking a little over an hour.)

The average game length was 2:24, or 1:12 a stock. This is including both outliers: The one 18-second game, and both of Fujin's very stally games. It would be 1:09 per stock with these omitted, but I think that's unfair; both these sort of things do happen.

Based on empirical data from other events in the smash community, we know that 3-stocks plays faster per-stock on average, though only slightly--about 5 seconds. (There are a few explanations for this, including rage and a slight tilt towards aggressiveness.)

We can estimate that if last week's tourney were 3-stock, those 5 stages would have taken around 18 minutes longer. The entire bracket would have taken around 25 minutes longer.

This is not counting any early round "Game 3s" (or 4/5) that additional stocks would prevent. 3-stocks minimize flukes, which makes slightly fewer sets go to Game 3. In the previous two tourneys, my first round went to game 3 due to a 0% SD. In both cases I played it out, and barely lost 1-vs-2. It is more likely I could have won these games 2-vs-3, in which case a 3-stock set would have actually taken *less* time than a full Bo3 2-stock. Situations like this are not included in the previous estimate.



For context, let's compare this to other decisions we make that affect time:

Because we were ahead of schedule, we decided to delay WF to run a loser's bracket match (Manny vs. Fujin) on stream. (This was my suggestion) This took an extra 8:06, and is included in the previous 3-stock estimate. Assuming we take this away, 3-stock would add only be a 15 minute difference.

Running WF, LF, and GF Bo5 instead of Bo3 added 18:23 additional time. If we went to GF round 2, it would have been around 22-25 minutes total. I'm not saying we shouldn't do Bo5 (spectators seem to like it), but just giving context for the time cost of that decision.

Eric [the TO] had over 66% setup-time efficiency for the second half of the event, which is remarkable and goes under-appreciated. He does a great job getting people to playing their bloody games, like all TOs should. What if he did even a slightly worse job? If setup efficiency was reduced merely to 50%, the event would have taken a full additional 60 minutes.

tl;dr - The bottom line impact of stock count is surprisingly low, and for an event like last week would add to 12-15 additional minutes.



Finally, a quick note about match time limit. It might be counter-intuitive, but lowering the time limit *INCREASES* average match length. (For reasonable bounds, obviously) This is because the lower the time limit is, the more viable stalling is. (This sort of statistical phenomenon is known as a "Laffer Curve".)

We have witnessed this first hand in our community. As I said above, our average stock length for the last event was 1:12, even including Fujin. We did not have a single game go to time; except Fujin, the longest game was 3:39, and the second longest was 2:57. (The last two matches of GF)

At this rate, our 3-stock matches should take around 3-minutes average, and around 4:30 usual worst case. Yet when we held a 3-stock 5-minute tourney, a very large percentage of games went to time, including 5 of mine! This is because stalling became a dominant strategy.

The other night at Nicole's the main TV got accidentally set to 3-stock 5-minute for the entire night, except that nobody noticed and assumed it was 8-minutes. We were surprised when we realized it--not a single 3-stock game the entire night had hit that time limit, even when Fujin was playing.

tl;dr - Higher time limit actually results in shorter matches on average.
 

ParanoidDrone

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The other night at Nicole's the main TV got accidentally set to 3-stock 5-minute for the entire night, except that nobody noticed and assumed it was 8-minutes. We were surprised when we realized it--not a single 3-stock game the entire night had hit that time limit, even when Fujin was playing.
I think this anecdote in particular is really interesting and kind of hilarious.
 

BestTeaMaker

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A cross-post from Facebook. I've posted all of this before here in some vein, but whatever:
Funny thing, I was having the exact same conversation with a friend of mine. This is what he said:

[1/14/2015 1:11:23 AM] Average 3 stock time: 3 minutes 30 seconds
[1/14/2015 1:11:35 AM] Average 2 stock time: 2 minutes 45 seconds
[1/14/2015 1:11:45 AM] so you're looking at about 45s difference
[1/14/2015 1:12:20 AM] looked at vgbootcamp + personal experience + hypest

[1/14/2015 1:13:42 AM] there's not much math involved to an average
[1/14/2015 1:13:55 AM] all I was doing was watching some smash4 matches with my friends and took note of time
[1/14/2015 1:14:15 AM] and me and my friend kinda agree that 2 stocks feels kinda boring
[1/14/2015 1:14:20 AM] or at least these vgbootcamp videos were

[1/14/2015 1:14:37 AM] we looked at S@X videos btw
[1/14/2015 1:15:20 AM] but that last remark was just personal bias
[1/14/2015 1:15:51 AM] for some reason, despite the fact that the difference feels miniscule
[1/14/2015 1:16:06 AM] 2 stocks, at least psychologically, felt really short
[1/14/2015 1:16:26 AM] which is why I attributed it to boredom in a way
[1/14/2015 1:16:54 AM] It's too late for me to dig deeper into this psychological phenomenom though
[1/14/2015 1:17:15 AM] if you're curious, just keep track of time for every match
[1/14/2015 1:18:01 AM] For example, this Sheik vs Sonic matchup with 2 stocks actually took longer than the average 3 stock
[1/14/2015 1:18:07 AM] at about 4 minutes each match almost
[1/14/2015 1:18:40 AM] I feel like Sonic drags matches on for a really long time because he would always live up to about 200%+
[1/14/2015 1:19:08 AM] I believe I've heard comments saying the same thing, I thought they were overexaggerating until I saw it myself[
 

Thinkaman

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Sonic, DHD, Mega Man, and no-customs Palutena tend to be the longest characters in our experience. Villager is up there too, but seems to vary more based on matchup. WFT as well, and Pac-Man.

Rosalina and Sheik seem to be a tad on the slow side, and Diddy and ZSS tend to be a tad on the fast side--but this might be local bias. (Not basing this on national footage, just personal experience) Jigglypuff is a total wild card that can go either way. Ness too.

Little Mac, Ganon, custom Palutena, Falcon, Mario, and Yoshi tend to be the fastest; again, in our experience. Maybe then Charizard and Fox. The 18-second GF match we had was Ganon vs. Yoshi.

[1/14/2015 1:11:23 AM] Average 3 stock time: 3 minutes 30 seconds
[1/14/2015 1:11:35 AM] Average 2 stock time: 2 minutes 45 seconds
[1/14/2015 1:11:45 AM] so you're looking at about 45s difference
I'm surprised the difference here is so high--that seems wrong...

I'd expect players who play 2-stock matches in 2:45 to play 3-stock matches in about 3:45, in line with the other early data we had.

I'm an aggressive player, and based on recordings I average about 2:15 for 2-stocks and 3:10 for 3-stocks. This fits the previous data of 3-stocks being ~40% longer on average.
 
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BestTeaMaker

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Sonic, DHD, Mega Man, and no-customs Palutena tend to be the longest characters in our experience. Villager is up there too, but seems to vary more based on matchup. WFT as well, and Pac-Man.

Rosalina and Sheik seem to be a tad on the slow side, and Diddy and ZSS tend to be a tad on the fast side--but this might be local bias. (Not basing this on national footage, just personal experience) Jigglypuff is a total wild card that can go either way. Ness too.

Little Mac, Ganon, custom Palutena, Falcon, Mario, and Yoshi tend to be the fastest; again, in our experience. Maybe then Charizard and Fox. The 18-second GF match we had was Ganon vs. Yoshi.



I'm surprised the difference here is so high--that seems wrong...

I'd expect players who play 2-stock matches in 2:45 to play 3-stock matches in about 3:45, in line with the other early data we had.

I'm an aggressive player, and based on recordings I average about 2:15 for 2-stocks and 3:10 for 3-stocks. This fits the previous data of 3-stocks being ~40% longer on average.
I thought it was interesting too in the difference. Before, I assumed that a stock takes about 1-2 minutes, so ideally a 2-stock match finishes in about 4 minutes and a 3 stock in 6 minutes. But now that we have a good number of matches to compare, it does seem like the difference between 2 and 3 stock isn't that much.

Although, it does seem that it's match up dependent in smash 4. In my experience, Sonics take a while to finish games (ironically). I'm surprised that you feel Mega Man takes a while though. I feel that in comparison to Sonic or DHD, there is more kill potential with Mega Man.
 

Thinkaman

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I thought it was interesting too in the difference. Before, I assumed that a stock takes about 1-2 minutes, so ideally a 2-stock match finishes in about 4 minutes and a 3 stock in 6 minutes. But now that we have a good number of matches to compare, it does seem like the difference between 2 and 3 stock isn't that much.

Although, it does seem that it's match up dependent in smash 4. In my experience, Sonics take a while to finish games (ironically). I'm surprised that you feel Mega Man takes a while though. I feel that in comparison to Sonic or DHD, there is more kill potential with Mega Man.
MM's kill power is very gated and never tied to easy punishes in most situations. He's very slippery and lives forever, perpetually enjoying an amazing harassment game. MM is pretty incentivized to play in a very slow, drawn own way.

Pac-Man is a bit similar, but it manifests way less in my experience.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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The frame data of the Miis isn't size variant though larger Miis likely have slightly more frame advantage on hit/block than smaller ones due to their extra power (it shouldn't be much, and most people seem to agree that the mobility of smaller Miis is worth way more).

IMO with Miis we can keep it simple. You can either use guest Miis, pre-made Miis (min size and min height/max width Miis at least should be pre-made per set-up), or load up your own Mii from a 3ds if you want something special. Mii Maker is banned on account of taking forever and requiring a non-GC controller be available; if none of these work for you, pick one of the other 48 characters.

The messiness of Mii/Palutena with customs is kinda a part of why customs should just be allowed in general, but it's definitely the case that the Miis being viable characters pretty well depends on them being able to pick actual movesets and not arbitrarily chosen 1111/2222/3333 movesets. So for a part of the long list of why banning customs is a bad idea, it effectively bans three characters, and yeah, it's really arbitrary to allow Miis (who are made in the custom menu) but not custom movesets in general when they're perfectly well balanced for the whole cast.
 

DeLux

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We should just ban everything that can't be unlocked by only playing multiplayer.
 
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Pyr

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We should just ban everything that can't be unlocked by only playing multiplayer.
Then a few stages should be banned as well, along with anything that can be gotten with the aid of items, cause we never use them, right?

That is a horrible justification to ban. In time, some sort of outside influence will allow all of absolutely everything to be unlocked instantly on any WiiU, much like cheat devices were used for SSBM when no fully unlocked systems were available (cause no one was going to take the time to unlock the cast, then beat classic with everyone to get G&W, or play 1k matches to get everyone). No need to set a precedent like that when it will be invalidated.
 
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DeLux

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Then a few stages should be banned as well, along with anything that can be gotten with the aid of items, cause we never use them, right?

That is a horrible justification to ban. In time, some sort of outside influence will allow all of absolutely everything to be unlocked instantly on any WiiU, much like cheat devices were used for SSBM when no fully unlocked systems were available (cause no one was going to take the time to unlock the cast, then beat classic with everyone to get G&W, or play 1k matches to get everyone). No need to set a precedent like that when it will be invalidated.
Anything that gets smashville banned I support on principle.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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Am I allowed to use amiibo? If so, all of the custom moves should still be legal; you can get them all through multiplayer by using amiibos.

Also, just so everyone knows, Lux doesn't play single player. I'm entirely certain the only reason Smashville is legal at his events is that Bones and I played single player on his three set-ups and unlocked everything for him.
 

ParanoidDrone

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At the risk of stepping on a few toes, the idea that people don't want to bother with single player modes to unlock customs reeks of laziness. It's not even really hard per se, just tedious. Hell, go for the "Clear Classic at 7.0 or higher with all characters" challenge and you'll probably get half of them before you're done if you make a point of prioritizing the customization rewards. Do the "All Star on Hard with everyone" next for even more, or whatever difficulty you feel comfortable with and just aim for the trophies, then take each character to Target Blast to fill in the gaps once you have one or two left. Crazy Orders breaks the tedium nicely, especially if you can put together a Quick Batter equipment set for your character of choice.

I got them all in the beginning of January after maybe 5 hours a week of work on it since launch day.
 
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Reaperfan

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At the risk of stepping on a few toes, the idea that people don't want to bother with single player modes to unlock customs reeks of laziness. It's not even really hard per se, just tedious. Hell, go for the "Clear Classic at 7.0 or higher with all characters" challenge and you'll probably get half of them before you're done if you make a point of prioritizing the customization rewards. Do the "All Star on Hard with everyone" next for even more, or whatever difficulty you feel comfortable with and just aim for the trophies, then take each character to Target Blast to fill in the gaps once you have one or two left. Crazy Orders breaks the tedium nicely, especially if you can put together a Quick Batter equipment set for your character of choice.

I got them all in the beginning of January after maybe 5 hours a week of work on it since launch day.
If you have the coins to spare and only want to unlock one character's moves to practice with, Trophy Rush works well also. I can generally unlock all of a single character's moves within an hour to and hour and a half of just running TR with that character.
 

Thinkaman

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If you have the coins to spare and only want to unlock one character's moves to practice with, Trophy Rush works well also. I can generally unlock all of a single character's moves within an hour to and hour and a half of just running TR with that character.
That sounds really tedious. All Star on hard is surely faster?

I got them all in the beginning of January after maybe 5 hours a week of work on it since launch day.
I think after running classic on 7-9 and All Star on hard with everyone, I had all the moves for everyone but ~10 characters. IIRC I had everything in 8 days?

When I got down to just G&W and Lucina I tried Crazy Orders, but got literally zero custom moves in 4 30+ stage attempts.
 

Reaperfan

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That sounds really tedious. All Star on hard is surely faster?
Tedious? Yes.
Faster? Not sure.
Easier? Also yes.

It's mostly better for sniping out moves one character at a time. I don't think I'd unlock the whole cast doing it though.
 
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ParanoidDrone

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I think after running classic on 7-9 and All Star on hard with everyone, I had all the moves for everyone but ~10 characters. IIRC I had everything in 8 days?

When I got down to just G&W and Lucina I tried Crazy Orders, but got literally zero custom moves in 4 30+ stage attempts.
Crazy Orders starts to falter once you have few moves left. Since it goes by series instead of character for the rewards it's even worse. That's the point where I'd do the Classic/All Star > Target Blast thing with G&W, then repeat with Lucina.
 

LiteralGrill

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At the risk of stepping on a few toes, the idea that people don't want to bother with single player modes to unlock customs reeks of laziness. It's not even really hard per se, just tedious. Hell, go for the "Clear Classic at 7.0 or higher with all characters" challenge and you'll probably get half of them before you're done if you make a point of prioritizing the customization rewards. Do the "All Star on Hard with everyone" next for even more, or whatever difficulty you feel comfortable with and just aim for the trophies, then take each character to Target Blast to fill in the gaps once you have one or two left. Crazy Orders breaks the tedium nicely, especially if you can put together a Quick Batter equipment set for your character of choice.

I got them all in the beginning of January after maybe 5 hours a week of work on it since launch day.
Some do get luckier on RNG. I STILL have not unlocked all customs despite trying for some every single day for several hours.

I don't know if folks are lazy but I will say having to grind to get customs to practice with is a barrier to entry for new players and I have heard mention many times while running my events that that is a problem.
 

Piford

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Some do get luckier on RNG. I STILL have not unlocked all customs despite trying for some every single day for several hours.

I don't know if folks are lazy but I will say having to grind to get customs to practice with is a barrier to entry for new players and I have heard mention many times while running my events that that is a problem.
Even if you had all the customs, would anyone be realistically be able to practice against all of them. To find someone who actually is good enough with that character alone is hard enough, but to have them also know how to fully use all the custom moves is nearly impossible. The best way to train for custom would be to just to go tournaments and play against people who actually know what they're doing. Unlocking all the custom moves for practice seems just as helpful as watching the videos that detail all the custom moves. If you look at it this way, I don't know a single person who can play Peach remotely well enough for me to get proper practice against her, so do we ban Peach because I couldn't practice against her? Honestly custom moves are pretty insignificant when looking at a character as a whole, as most of them are just a weaker but faster and a stronger but slower variant. The only characters who's custom moves really need practice with are Palutena and the Miis and you get them all from the get-go. If your really worried that you won't be able to handle custom moves that you don't know about, you should research what they do or ask your opponent.
 

LiteralGrill

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Even if you had all the customs, would anyone be realistically be able to practice against all of them. To find someone who actually is good enough with that character alone is hard enough, but to have them also know how to fully use all the custom moves is nearly impossible. The best way to train for custom would be to just to go tournaments and play against people who actually know what they're doing. Unlocking all the custom moves for practice seems just as helpful as watching the videos that detail all the custom moves. If you look at it this way, I don't know a single person who can play Peach remotely well enough for me to get proper practice against her, so do we ban Peach because I couldn't practice against her? Honestly custom moves are pretty insignificant when looking at a character as a whole, as most of them are just a weaker but faster and a stronger but slower variant. The only characters who's custom moves really need practice with are Palutena and the Miis and you get them all from the get-go. If your really worried that you won't be able to handle custom moves that you don't know about, you should research what they do or ask your opponent.
You only present another issue, how in the world will the average player ever get to practice with them all? Unless they are forced to grind for loads of hours they wont be able to get their own moves, then they have to track down someone else who has done the same. The average player can sit down and just pick a character and practice without customs with NO effort. It stinks to say as having them legal would be cool but customs DO present a barrier of entry into tournaments. How long it would take even entering every event to have even a slight grasp on how to fight and work against various customs is astronomical (especially with how few places have them legal and how hard they are to implement).

Before someone mentions the custom move project, it's a FANTASTIC idea. However a lot of tournaments that I at least know that have ran it find it not really as great as it looks on paper. Australia in particular is talking about customs a lot and it was tried and didn't really work well for them it seems.
 

Piford

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You only present another issue, how in the world will the average player ever get to practice with them all? Unless they are forced to grind for loads of hours they wont be able to get their own moves, then they have to track down someone else who has done the same. The average player can sit down and just pick a character and practice without customs with NO effort. It stinks to say as having them legal would be cool but customs DO present a barrier of entry into tournaments. How long it would take even entering every event to have even a slight grasp on how to fight and work against various customs is astronomical (especially with how few places have them legal and how hard they are to implement).

Before someone mentions the custom move project, it's a FANTASTIC idea. However a lot of tournaments that I at least know that have ran it find it not really as great as it looks on paper. Australia in particular is talking about customs a lot and it was tried and didn't really work well for them it seems.
Well unlocking all the custom moves for your main only takes a couple hours max (Took me 20 minutes to get my first characters, so it can't take people more than a couple of hours if they actually try). It's not like having custom moves legal prevents someone from using the default build, so if a new player is more comfortable with default they can use that. If they need to know what custom their opponents are using they can just ask; I mean its not hard to say "Oh Fire Gyro sacrifices range for power" or "Timber Counter makes saplings trip you and the tree turns into Wobbuffet." I mean most of the custom moves names explain what they do well enough. What were the actual issues with using the custom move project because if TO are just saying "there are issues" then its kinda hard to fix them.
 

Piford

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how? what mode do you play?
I usually do classic mode on 7+ difficulty (depending on how confident I am with the character) then do all-star on hard twice. I can generally get all the moves that way. Occasionally I do Crazy orders as, after a while, it'll start to give you moves for the character you're using.
 

LiteralGrill

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If they need to know what custom their opponents are using they can just ask; I mean its not hard to say "Oh Fire Gyro sacrifices range for power" or "Timber Counter makes saplings trip you and the tree turns into Wobbuffet." I mean most of the custom moves names explain what they do well enough.
Why in the WORLD would I tell my opponent what the moved do if they don't know? I wanna play to win, I'll just watch them get confused and take my victory!

In all reality smashers are pretty nice people but you can't expect them to go through and tell what every single move does every time to a new player. I'm not saying this barrier is so horrible it can't be overcome, I don't really know. I just know how many people mention to me how annoying it can be trying to enter customs on tournaments we run.
 

Piford

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Why in the WORLD would I tell my opponent what the moved do if they don't know? I wanna play to win, I'll just watch them get confused and take my victory!
Well if I have to tell my opponent what character I'm running I ought to tell him what moves I'm running too. I mean really it shouldn't be that hard to go onto youtube and find one of the plethora of videos outlining all the custom moves. And worst come to worst, if you are really better than your opponent then you should be able to adapt to the custom moves and win anyways. I mean its not like they do anything radically different
 

Pazx

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Before someone mentions the custom move project, it's a FANTASTIC idea. However a lot of tournaments that I at least know that have ran it find it not really as great as it looks on paper. Australia in particular is talking about customs a lot and it was tried and didn't really work well for them it seems.
Custom Moveset Project worked great in Sydney as far as I'm aware, the Melbourne scene is anti-customs.

I think at this point in the game's lifespan, everyone who is pro-customs should be explaining what their custom moves do. There's no point playing to win with customs if your attitude is going to make them less accessible to other players.
 

Venks

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Why in the WORLD would I tell my opponent what the moved do if they don't know? I wanna play to win, I'll just watch them get confused and take my victory!

In all reality smashers are pretty nice people but you can't expect them to go through and tell what every single move does every time to a new player. I'm not saying this barrier is so horrible it can't be overcome, I don't really know. I just know how many people mention to me how annoying it can be trying to enter customs on tournaments we run.
That's what I've done for Hypest and some of the tournaments back in Australia. When I select my customs on the character select screen I'll let my opponent know which custom moves I'm using. And if they ask what they do then I'll tell them what property changes they have. It doesn't take that long to do and in the long run this will help everyone understand the moves better.

In offline tournaments people can see what customs you select such as 2111 or 3131. Customs are new right now, but further down the road everyone will know what you're up to when you choose 3131 as Donkey Kong.
 
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