Meta Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion

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No problem, I also apologize since I apparently misunderstood you too.

To me, customs off is a "given" in this discussion only, in the sense that it's pointless to discuss Mii's status otherwise. It would be ridiculous to restrict them in a customs on ruleset, so when we talk about them it is generally considering customs turned off. If you want to know I am in favor of all customs, but again this is another debate entirely, since we were initially talking about Mii's specials specifically.

Why do you think it's contradictory to defend fully customizable Miis in a custom off environment ? They get special treatment because of the game itself (not affected by the menu toggle, two separate options in tourney mode for both customs and Miis, created via a different menu etc), not because we wanted to favour them ourselves. Again, I don't see why it is "bad" or uncompetitive or contradictory to simply go by the game.
I explained in a long rant post (the one with a numbered list). Pretty much I went through all the reasons I knew of that you could want a no-customs ruleset and then went on to how all of those reasons would lead to one of 2 other conclusions: Either palutena should be allowed customs, or miis shouldn't. That was the point I was trying to make. You can read the post for how exactly I got there, but that's what I was trying to say.
 

Ajimi

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Except that Palutena's customs are not immune to internal game ruling, and that Mii's ones are hardly "regular" customs.

It's simple really :
- If you want to restrict Miis in customs off, you have to explain with competitive arguments (bugged, broken etc) why you want to bypass game mechanics with an external rule. I already explained that part.

- If you want to allow only Palutena's and Mii's moves in customs on, you want in fact to ban every existing customs except for those two characters. And here too it's going against game mechanics, since customs "on" normally allows them for every character. Miis aren't really a problem in this case, but the only thing that put Palutena apart from other characters is "her customs are already unlocked", which in my opinion is a pretty weak (and hardly competitive) reason to ban 300+ other moves. You can see it as unfair if you want (blame Sakurai), but she is NOT special in regard to the game.

Again you're focusing on a "logical" way to justify both customs "on" and "off", when I just want to follow how the game works in both settings.
 
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Ghostbone

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A: I'm sorry for misunderstanding your point, could you restate it in a different way?
I was talking about the customs off ruleset in a vacuum, and you repeatedly kept comparing my argument to one of banning customs, which is irrelevant because customs don't matter when we're talking about customs off, and also wasn't my argument at all.

Because we want to make a call because it's the right call, not because it's the easy call.
The call has already been made, customs off is the way forward (almost every TO and many players will tell you this).
I don't really want to bring the whole customs argument into this, because it's a long one and there are plenty of videos and articles on it already.
Even if the call hadn't already been made, trying to make one ruleset (customs off) worse (by banning mii specials) to promote another ruleset (customs on) is childish. Whether I want customs on or off is irrelevant when determining the legality of mii specials.

For the sake of the argument, just pretend that the customs on toggle doesn't exist. Can you really justify banning miis specials in this environment? If customs never existed would you still be trying to ban miis specials? If the answer is no, then I don't know why you're still arguing against miis getting access to all their moves the game lets them use, when the custom toggle is set to off. If your answer is no, you're admitting that mii's having their specials is the favourable ruleset, even if all other characters can't switch. (whether because their moves don't exist, or because we don't use the toggle that gives other characters custom moves)
As has been repeatedly explained, we only diverge from what the game allows when the game either doesn't cover the scenario we require (stage striking, character counterpicking, set procedure in general) or the game presents an uncompetitive scenario (broken stages like temple, sudden death, potentially overpowered characters). Miis specials are allowed under all settings, and there isn't an issue with miis rampaging through brackets with their overpowered options, so they shouldn't be banned.
 
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I was talking about the customs off ruleset in a vacuum, and you repeatedly kept comparing my argument to one of banning customs, which is irrelevant because customs don't matter when we're talking about customs off, and also wasn't my argument at all.


The call has already been made, customs off is the way forward (almost every TO and many players will tell you this).
I don't really want to bring the whole customs argument into this, because it's a long one and there are plenty of videos and articles on it already.
Even if the call hadn't already been made, trying to make one ruleset (customs off) worse (by banning mii specials) to promote another ruleset (customs on) is childish. Whether I want customs on or off is irrelevant when determining the legality of mii specials.

For the sake of the argument, just pretend that the customs on toggle doesn't exist. Can you really justify banning miis specials in this environment? If customs never existed would you still be trying to ban miis specials? If the answer is no, then I don't know why you're still arguing against miis getting access to all their moves the game lets them use, when the custom toggle is set to off. If your answer is no, you're admitting that mii's having their specials is the favourable ruleset, even if all other characters can't switch. (whether because their moves don't exist, or because we don't use the toggle that gives other characters custom moves)
As has been repeatedly explained, we only diverge from what the game allows when the game either doesn't cover the scenario we require (stage striking, character counterpicking, set procedure in general) or the game presents an uncompetitive scenario (broken stages like temple, sudden death, potentially overpowered characters). Miis specials are allowed under all settings, and there isn't an issue with miis rampaging through brackets with their overpowered options, so they shouldn't be banned.
My point still stands. Please, explain to me exactly why you think customs off is the way to go. Don't concern miis in your answer, just why you think custom moves should be banned.
 

Pazx

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My point still stands. Please, explain to me exactly why you think customs off is the way to go. Don't concern miis in your answer, just why you think custom moves should be banned.
I really truly do not know why people are replying to you when I could copy paste Ghostbone's last post in reply to this and it would make perfect sense. On top of that, his personal preference for customs on or off is irrelevant to the discussion he's trying to have. The customs on vs customs off is a different debate which you are certainly welcome to have here but I'm not sure why you're replying to people who aren't discussing it as if they were. Can you make any argument related to Miis and their potential restrictions in customs-off without relating or comparing it to the customs-on ruleset?

To answer your question though, the reason most people are pushing customs-off is because most people seem to prefer it.
 
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I really truly do not know why people are replying to you when I could copy paste Ghostbone's last post in reply to this and it would make perfect sense. On top of that, his personal preference for customs on or off is irrelevant to the discussion he's trying to have. The customs on vs customs off is a different debate which you are certainly welcome to have here but I'm not sure why you're replying to people who aren't discussing it as if they were. Can you make any argument related to Miis and their potential restrictions in customs-off without relating or comparing it to the customs-on ruleset?

To answer your question though, the reason most people are pushing customs-off is because most people seem to prefer it.
It is relevant, as I've explained, because you have to have a reason for you to have a customs off ruleset, just like you need one for a customs on ruleset. If you want to say fully customizable miis should be allowed in customs off, the reason you have for having customs off in the first place must also not also dictate that miis should not be fully customizable.
 

Ansou

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Alright, I'll start by saying this: at this point, I really don't care about if Mii Fighters should have all of their moves available if Customization is turned off. Why? Because we have to make the decision on whether Customization should be turned on or off before we assume that we will be playing with the option toggled off. The community is still undecided in this matter, so don't pretend that it is obvious that Customization turned off is the way to go. Yeah, many TOs have decided to not allow customization in their tourneys, even though there are much better arguments for allowing them. TOs have a large responsibility and should always be able to provide good arguments for why they make decisions such as this.

This is why the discussion on if we should allow customization in the form of Custom Specials is more relevant than the discussion on whether we should allow Mii Fighters to have all of their Specials even if Customization is turned off.
 

Ansou

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What about regions that run both customs on and off tournaments? We should be willing to discuss both rulesets as they are both valid.
If you are assuming that we will continue to play with two separate rulesets, yes.
I personally believe that we should focus on crafting one optimal ruleset instead of making two different rulesets that TOs can choose from because they just "feel" like one of the two rulesets will be easier to run. My local scene is currently running one tourney with customs and one without each month. However, this is not because we think customs are better one week and customs off is better the other week nor is it because we want to please two different playerbases. It's because most of the people in the area think that customs is good for the game, but still want to know the customs off meta because many larger tournaments play without customs. We wouldn't have to do this if the community could actually decide on whether we should use customs or not. We only need one standard ruleset for competitive Smash 4 singles, not two.
 

nebulark

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Hello everybody! I've been a long time reader on this forum and especially interested in custom moves. At the moment the discussion about Custom Moves is rather stale. There are just two sides trying to convince each other with no real progress. I don't think this will change without any new ideas. Therefore I want to give my opinion on how Custom Moves should be handled, to give you some new things to discuss.

So here is the idea: Players can only use one Custom at once.

Yes, it is quite simple, but this actually solves a few problems people might have with Custom Moves.
[collapse=Reasoning]100% Moveset Coverage without 3DS Imports
For me this is one of the main selling points. If only 10 of the 80 possible Custom Sets can be used, 70 are left out. This leaves the players are at the mercy of the few people discussing what sets can be used. However if this idea is adopted, there would be only 8 possible Sets. Thus you can choose from all possible Custom Move Sets without any 3DS imports. There is no chance being left out, even if you are the only person in the world using this particular custom .

It saves time
As I have said there are only 8 possible Sets, so nobody has to discuss what should be used. It is also easier for TOs as they don't have to keep track of the most popular Movesets and import new ones every now and then. This saves time for everyone.

No more "strict upgrades"
Previous you only had to evaluate whether a Custom Move is better than the default. Now however, you have to consider if it is worth using a Custom Move over another one, as you only get to choose one. Moves, which are "strictly better" now come with a cost. For example, if you want to use Heavy Skull Bash, you can't use Thunder Wave and Donkey Kong might not always opt for Kong Cyclone.

A compromise for Players inexperienced with Custom moves
For players inexperienced with Custom Moves only having to deal with one custom is not as drastic as dealing with multiple at once. I hope this compromise helps to get those players to play with this ruleset and learn about custom moves.

It deals with "campy" Villager
There are many people, who don't like a particular Custom Moveset for Villager. This idea deals with the issue without any extra rule.
In my opinion the combination is not broken, so it's good to be able to remove this combination without directly banning it. This way we don't have to ban something just for being annoying and can still satisfy a lot of people.

Expressive Set Names
This might not be important for all players, but for some this is a huge boon. Everybody, who has played with custom moves, can probably agree with me that remembering what "Set 1321" means for a particular character is very difficult. However, with only one custom allowed per Moveset, you can name that set after the Move. This way sets are easy recognizable and everybody instantly knows which Set you are using, including yourself.[/collapse]
[collapse=DLC Characters, Mii and Paluntena]
DLC Characters
The DLC argument is commonly used against custom moves, however I don't agree with this. Only because a character gets something and another one doesn't is a valid reason to ban all custom moves. It's not like we don't patch our games, just because one character gets buffed and another one doesn't. For me the interesting applications of customs and increased diversity of character outweigh something so small a "relative nerf" by far.

Mii and Paluntena
The main point for this idea is to have all possible sets available. The best solution would be able to choose the customs before playing, just like creating a name and adjusting controls. For the most characters however this isn't possible as you would have to unlock the customs first, which would take time. Therefore the sets are imported from a 3DS.

The Miis and Paluntena don't have this problem, so it is possible to use "the best solution". To save time one could also create the most common sets beforehand, so players only have to go into the "customization menu", when they wish to use an uncommon one. For Miis one could also have differently sized Miis on their Wii U, if different Mii sizes are allowed.

Some people say might say this is unfair, but as I said, a "relative nerf" is acceptable when you get increased diversity.[/collapse]

My aim with this thread is to create a custom ruleset players can agree on. It tries makes many things easier and consistent as well a being a compromise for people opposed to customs. The best case would be having something with this ruleset regularly, even if it's only a sideevent. This way people would get more experienced playing with customs and might even start to like them.

I hope you like this idea and if not give me comment describing you concerns. I am really interested what you have to say.
 

Thecombosetups

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Hello everybody! I've been a long time reader on this forum and especially interested in custom moves. At the moment the discussion about Custom Moves is rather stale. There are just two sides trying to convince each other with no real progress. I don't think this will change without any new ideas. Therefore I want to give my opinion on how Custom Moves should be handled, to give you some new things to discuss.

So here is the idea: Players can only use one Custom at once.

Yes, it is quite simple, but this actually solves a few problems people might have with Custom Moves.
[collapse=Reasoning]100% Moveset Coverage without 3DS Imports
For me this is one of the main selling points. If only 10 of the 80 possible Custom Sets can be used, 70 are left out. This leaves the players are at the mercy of the few people discussing what sets can be used. However if this idea is adopted, there would be only 8 possible Sets. Thus you can choose from all possible Custom Move Sets without any 3DS imports. There is no chance being left out, even if you are the only person in the world using this particular custom .

It saves time
As I have said there are only 8 possible Sets, so nobody has to discuss what should be used. It is also easier for TOs as they don't have to keep track of the most popular Movesets and import new ones every now and then. This saves time for everyone.

No more "strict upgrades"
Previous you only had to evaluate whether a Custom Move is better than the default. Now however, you have to consider if it is worth using a Custom Move over another one, as you only get to choose one. Moves, which are "strictly better" now come with a cost. For example, if you want to use Heavy Skull Bash, you can't use Thunder Wave and Donkey Kong might not always opt for Kong Cyclone.

A compromise for Players inexperienced with Custom moves
For players inexperienced with Custom Moves only having to deal with one custom is not as drastic as dealing with multiple at once. I hope this compromise helps to get those players to play with this ruleset and learn about custom moves.

It deals with "campy" Villager
There are many people, who don't like a particular Custom Moveset for Villager. This idea deals with the issue without any extra rule.
In my opinion the combination is not broken, so it's good to be able to remove this combination without directly banning it. This way we don't have to ban something just for being annoying and can still satisfy a lot of people.

Expressive Set Names
This might not be important for all players, but for some this is a huge boon. Everybody, who has played with custom moves, can probably agree with me that remembering what "Set 1321" means for a particular character is very difficult. However, with only one custom allowed per Moveset, you can name that set after the Move. This way sets are easy recognizable and everybody instantly knows which Set you are using, including yourself.[/collapse]
[collapse=DLC Characters, Mii and Paluntena]
DLC Characters
The DLC argument is commonly used against custom moves, however I don't agree with this. Only because a character gets something and another one doesn't is a valid reason to ban all custom moves. It's not like we don't patch our games, just because one character gets buffed and another one doesn't. For me the interesting applications of customs and increased diversity of character outweigh something so small a "relative nerf" by far.

Mii and Paluntena
The main point for this idea is to have all possible sets available. The best solution would be able to choose the customs before playing, just like creating a name and adjusting controls. For the most characters however this isn't possible as you would have to unlock the customs first, which would take time. Therefore the sets are imported from a 3DS.

The Miis and Paluntena don't have this problem, so it is possible to use "the best solution". To save time one could also create the most common sets beforehand, so players only have to go into the "customization menu", when they wish to use an uncommon one. For Miis one could also have differently sized Miis on their Wii U, if different Mii sizes are allowed.

Some people say might say this is unfair, but as I said, a "relative nerf" is acceptable when you get increased diversity.[/collapse]

My aim with this thread is to create a custom ruleset players can agree on. It tries makes many things easier and consistent as well a being a compromise for people opposed to customs. The best case would be having something with this ruleset regularly, even if it's only a sideevent. This way people would get more experienced playing with customs and might even start to like them.

I hope you like this idea and if not give me comment describing you concerns. I am really interested what you have to say.
I lie this idea with the miis and custom moves
 

T0MMY

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Placing limits on the game has no place in a competitive environment. This includes placing limits on Custom Moves.
Either play the game with all Customs available or don't play with Customs.
There's a button that turns it on/off for a reason, use it.

Right now nearly all the competitive events will have Custom Fighters set to OFF, so that solves nearly ever problem that customs brings to the table. The only problem it doesn't solve is the one where people want to use customs. Well, here's the second part of the problem solved: host some custom tournaments. If there's interest for it and it's better for the competitive field then it'll be accepted. If not, no reason to cry over spilled milk. Pick up with things and move on.
 
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Ansou

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So here is the idea: Players can only use one Custom at once.
To be honest, this doesn't really help with the things people see as the most problematic things with customs. We still need to have a 3DS with every custom move unlocked at events in order for this to happen. Some regions aren't even interested enough to do this, and the interest would probably be even lower if players can only use one move with the number 2 or 3 per moveset as it limits options. I must say that it feels a bit sad that TOs are not prepared to put in some extra effort for their competitive scene...

Another argument that people use against customs is that they don't get balanced enough. With that said, I really don't think that the game will ever get enough balance patches that it will ever matter if they more actively balanced special moves 2 and 3 (although they did remove Pikachu's infinite if I'm not mistaken). Regardless if it's actually a problem or not, this will not be solved by using only one special move with the number 2 or 3 per moveset. This can only be solved by actually showing the developers that we really care about custom moves. We do this by using custom moves in tourneys.

Also, even if we go with this idea instead of the standard Custom Moveset Project, people will have to practise against every single custom move in the game, which is apparently an argument against using customs (although I don't understand how the need for practise can be a valid argument).
 

nebulark

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First of all, thank you for your feedback. I appreciate it.

Placing limits on the game has no place in a competitive environment.
I would really like the hear the reasoning behind this, because I can't see how placing a limit on something makes it uncompetetive. Especially if the limit can be enforced with any real effort. It's not like a said to be only allowed to use a custom move every 10 seconds to prevent Captain Falcon infinites.

Right now nearly all the competitive events will have Custom Fighters set to OFF, so that solves nearly ever problem that customs brings to the table. The only problem it doesn't solve is the one where people want to use customs. Well, here's the second part of the problem solved: host some custom tournaments. If there's interest for it and it's better for the competitive field then it'll be accepted. If not, no reason to cry over spilled milk. Pick up with things and move on.
Not everybody is able to host tournaments. My aim is to convince the people, who are able to. If I were able to host custom tournaments myself, I would.


To be honest, this doesn't really help with the things people see as the most problematic things with customs. We still need to have a 3DS with every custom move unlocked at events in order for this to happen. Some regions aren't even interested enough to do this, and the interest would probably be even lower if players can only use one move with the number 2 or 3 per moveset as it limits options. I must say that it feels a bit sad that TOs are not prepared to put in some extra effort for their competitive scene...
I think that EVO proved that it is possible to do 3DS imports. If there is enough interest TOs will try it. Also coming up with a fully unlocked 3DS shouldn't be that difficult. TOs can ask their community by giving an entry discount for bringing one.
Another argument that people use against customs is that they don't get balanced enough. With that said, I really don't think that the game will ever get enough balance patches that it will ever matter if they more actively balanced special moves 2 and 3 (although they did remove Pikachu's infinite if I'm not mistaken). Regardless if it's actually a problem or not, this will not be solved by using only one special move with the number 2 or 3 per moveset. This can only be solved by actually showing the developers that we really care about custom moves. We do this by using custom moves in tourneys.
In my opinion shouldn't matter whether the are actively balanced or not, as long as they aren't broken. In addition EVO has shown that there none, which truly suit a banning criteria. You are right that only allowing one custom doesn't solve this problem, but it doesn't have to, because there is none.
Also, even if we go with this idea instead of the standard Custom Moveset Project, people will have to practise against every single custom move in the game, which is apparently an argument against using customs (although I don't understand how the need for practise can be a valid argument).
I know that this isn't the best solution, but I never intended this.
The point of only allowing one custom move is to be as convenient and easy to understand, while also having a compromise. I don't think we can persuade people to truy customs without those things. The goal is to get players used to customs, so that we can someday later have a better system.
 

Ansou

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I think that EVO proved that it is possible to do 3DS imports. If there is enough interest TOs will try it. Also coming up with a fully unlocked 3DS shouldn't be that difficult. TOs can ask their community by giving an entry discount for bringing one.
I know, it is fully possible to unlock all custom moves on a 3DS and transfer movesets to all Wii U setups at an event. I've done it myself. It takes a bit of time to unlock every custom move, but not long enough for it to actually be a problem for anyone who's willing to do it. The problem is that some regions just seem to lazy to do it. Being lazy however, should be their own problem. It really shouldn't influence the ruleset of major tournaments and other locals.

In my opinion shouldn't matter whether the are actively balanced or not, as long as they aren't broken. In addition EVO has shown that there none, which truly suit a banning criteria. You are right that only allowing one custom doesn't solve this problem, but it doesn't have to, because there is none.
I agree with you, but for some reason people have been using this as an argument against custom moves.

I know that this isn't the best solution, but I never intended this.
The point of only allowing one custom move is to be as convenient and easy to understand, while also having a compromise. I don't think we can persuade people to truy customs without those things. The goal is to get players used to customs, so that we can someday later have a better system.
I personally believe that being able to use whichever moveset you feel like is both more convenient and easier to understand that being forced to use a moveset with only one move that does not have the number 1. If this would actually work as a compromise and make it easier to switch to a better system in the future, I would be all for it. I just don't think that this is the compromise that the people who are against custom moves are looking for. I don't think they would like this any more than to just allow all custom moves. Unfortunately, I feel like it has to be all or nothing.
 

nebulark

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I personally believe that being able to use whichever moveset you feel like is both more convenient and easier to understand that being forced to use a moveset with only one move that does not have the number 1. If this would actually work as a compromise and make it easier to switch to a better system in the future, I would be all for it. I just don't think that this is the compromise that the people who are against custom moves are looking for. I don't think they would like this any more than to just allow all custom moves. Unfortunately, I feel like it has to be all or nothing.
I probably worded myself poorly here. You are right that it can be difficult or take longer to explain the reasoning behind only allowing one custom.
However, if you want allow all customs combinations you have to limit the Sets to a select few, so a player can never be sure he can use his set unless he checks it beforehand. If you allow 3DS imports to combat that, it's inconvenient for the player, as he has to own or find a 3DS, with his customs unlocked.
However with only 8 possible Sets this becomes much easier, because it's impossible that your favorite isn't there. No need to check or bring a 3DS. The Sets can also be named after the custom moves, so it's easier to know what each Set does.

It also gets rid of the Villager's dreaded Custom Set, which is one of the arguments against customs. This makes it more likely that anti-custom people give this a chance.

To sum it up, this idea is a response to the arguments against customs. Sadly this also means that pro-custom players can't be fully satisfied. For me however I would prefer having a slightly worse version than nothing at all. Especially if this helps to educate players about customs, which then can make it easier to create a better system in the future.

So the main question is, which anti-custom arguments still stand, if something like this became the ruleset for "customs on".
 
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The biggest problem with only allowing 1 custom is that people want to play customs because they want to play customs. If they can only play with 1 custom, they are getting a watered down, pathetic excuse for customs, that's not only just as difficult to set up logistically (or pretty damn close) since you either have to A: get all customs on a 3ds and import them 1 by 1, or B: unlock them all on the WiiU and set them all up manually, but also is less enjoyable to use.

Your remaining argument is that people don't want to not be able to use their custom set. But guess what, people still aren't going to be able to use their custom set. Instead of mario getting the following sets:

2312, 2332, 2212, 2232, 1312, 1313, 1332, 1212, 1213, 2213

He'd have

1112, 1113, 1121, 1131, 1211, 1311, 2111, 3111

See that? That's not only 2 fewer sets, but they're sets people don't want to play. Yes, the system is a tad unfair, but your solution is to make it suck for everyone instead of just a few people. Not only in the sets, but the implied policy on imports. Now no one can get their preferred custom set, because any set that isn't already there has more than 1 custom, making it banned. Yeah, now you don't need a 3ds to get your preferred set. Now, instead, you can't get it no matter what you do. Don't worry, now it's fair!

You know what else is fair? Closing my ice cream shop because there are people in town who are lactose-intolerant and might feel bad that they can't also eat ice cream. Now no one gets ice cream.

Point of my analogy because I know it'll be misinterpreted: Something being fair doesn't mean it is right or sensible. Not saying our situation is just like closing an ice cream shop.

(Actually, now that I think about it, your system isn't even fair! because for some characters, 1112 is a far more viable set than on another character.)

Long story short your solving a problem by making it worse. Your trying to make things easier and more enjoyable for people by removing things they like.
 
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T0MMY

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First of all, thank you for your feedback. I appreciate it.
And thank you for taking the time to read my post and responding politely.


I would really like the hear the reasoning behind this, because I can't see how placing a limit on something makes it uncompetetive. Especially if the limit can be enforced with any real effort. It's not like a said to be only allowed to use a custom move every 10 seconds to prevent Captain Falcon infinites.
To clarify, when I said placing limits on the game has no place in competition, it was a rule of thumb. There are exceptions to having out-of-game rulings that (rarely) should be employed when something is found to be anti-competitive (thinking of freeze glitches and gross character balance which ruin an otherwise competitive game).
This is essentially axiomatic for Competitive Theory, the very foundations of competition existing at all - we cannot play out a match unless we agree to the terms by which to compete. This foundation is what is referred to as a Standard (what everyone who is considered part of the Competitive Community would be agreeing to). To not agree with this essentially means one is not competing in the same game as the competitive player (or at least mentally is in a completely different realm which leads to strife and can potentially destroy the value of a match).

All this really wouldn't matter except the decades-long gaming culture that has cropped up around this philosophy of competition is the dominant way of determining winners, so when I say "limits are not placed on the game" it's the response you should be expecting from the Competitive Community you just walked right into steeped with all its rich history that dates back to something far deeper (think about how Sakurai said competition is a part of us down to our DNA).

Now, I am not saying you are wrong. I am simply a messenger pointing to the principle that limits are not to be employed unless warranted and can clearly show it benefits the competitive value of the game for us competitive players to accept it. This is the due process that is required (if it weren't for due process we'd have a million different ways of playing this game and no way to gauge who is "better" at playing).

Which gets us to the next point:

Not everybody is able to host tournaments. My aim is to convince the people, who are able to. If I were able to host custom tournaments myself, I would.
I would suggest you take a stronger path to getting your idea more widely accepted:

First, no johns. This applies to TOs as well as players. Simply saying "I can't" is not an option to getting a rule changed. When one expressively pushes ideas of how things should be without doing any work to get them to that point it's generally just seen as whining - not saying you are doing that, but complaining about things and expecting others to do your bidding at your every whim is not going to fly in this community.

Secondly, do you have"legit" johns? Are you honestly unable to host a tournament for some very real and physical reason that completely prevents you from doing so? Well, then, here's the unfortunate response: that sucks. Because chances are everyone who could host a tournament with whatever rules you wanted probably not only doesn't care but also would rather host a tournament the way they want instead. You're probably out of luck.

Finally, if you really think your ideas are so good that they should really be used by a larger audience and you've got people willing to host tournaments for you because it's that great of an idea then you're still going to have a long road ahead of you. Host tournaments, get recognized, and then you've got room to talk to other TOs about rules. Convincing TOs to use these rules is a difficult matter (hey, it takes me A LOT of effort just to convince TOs to stay with a competitive standard!), but convincing the players that new rules are better ules because you say so is not only much more difficult but it's probably impossible unless the rules actually are good. Let the free market decide which rules the players are going to use and accept that one person does not dictate how the game is played competitively - enjoy playing by your own rules with the people who also enjoy playing by those rules, it may be foolish to expect the world to change just for oneself, but and if the world follows the way you go then so be it.
 

nebulark

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 25, 2015
Messages
23
The biggest problem with only allowing 1 custom is that people want to play customs because they want to play customs. If they can only play with 1 custom, they are getting a watered down, pathetic excuse for customs, that's not only just as difficult to set up logistically (or pretty damn close) since you either have to A: get all customs on a 3ds and import them 1 by 1, or B: unlock them all on the WiiU and set them all up manually, but also is less enjoyable to use.

Your remaining argument is that people don't want to not be able to use their custom set. But guess what, people still aren't going to be able to use their custom set. Instead of mario getting the following sets:

2312, 2332, 2212, 2232, 1312, 1313, 1332, 1212, 1213, 2213

He'd have

1112, 1113, 1121, 1131, 1211, 1311, 2111, 3111

See that? That's not only 2 fewer sets, but they're sets people don't want to play. Yes, the system is a tad unfair, but your solution is to make it suck for everyone instead of just a few people. Not only in the sets, but the implied policy on imports. Now no one can get their preferred custom set, because any set that isn't already there has more than 1 custom, making it banned. Yeah, now you don't need a 3ds to get your preferred set. Now, instead, you can't get it no matter what you do. Don't worry, now it's fair!

You know what else is fair? Closing my ice cream shop because there are people in town who are lactose-intolerant and might feel bad that they can't also eat ice cream. Now no one gets ice cream.

Point of my analogy because I know it'll be misinterpreted: Something being fair doesn't mean it is right or sensible. Not saying our situation is just like closing an ice cream shop.

(Actually, now that I think about it, your system isn't even fair! because for some characters, 1112 is a far more viable set than on another character.)

Long story short your solving a problem by making it worse. Your trying to make things easier and more enjoyable for people by removing things they like.
Before I start I want to repeat my intention behind this idea.
This isn't about being the best custom solution, otherwise this would just be a worse version Custom Moveset Project. It's about finding a solution for the arguments against customs.
It is also not about being fair, as this is pretty much impossible. Without customs it's "unfair" for some charaters because sheik has better normals and default special. If every custom combination is allowed it's "unfair" to the dlc characters and character with good defaults/bad customs. So for me it's not important whether something is fair or not, as long as it isn't broken or destroys competition.

To clarify, when I said placing limits on the game has no place in competition, it was a rule of thumb. There are exceptions to having out-of-game rulings that (rarely) should be employed when something is found to be anti-competitive (thinking of freeze glitches and gross character balance which ruin an otherwise competitive game).
This is essentially axiomatic for Competitive Theory, the very foundations of competition existing at all - we cannot play out a match unless we agree to the terms by which to compete. This foundation is what is referred to as a Standard (what everyone who is considered part of the Competitive Community would be agreeing to). To not agree with this essentially means one is not competing in the same game as the competitive player (or at least mentally is in a completely different realm which leads to strife and can potentially destroy the value of a match).

All this really wouldn't matter except the decades-long gaming culture that has cropped up around this philosophy of competition is the dominant way of determining winners, so when I say "limits are not placed on the game" it's the response you should be expecting from the Competitive Community you just walked right into steeped with all its rich history that dates back to something far deeper (think about how Sakurai said competition is a part of us down to our DNA).

Now, I am not saying you are wrong. I am simply a messenger pointing to the principle that limits are not to be employed unless warranted and can clearly show it benefits the competitive value of the game for us competitive players to accept it. This is the due process that is required (if it weren't for due process we'd have a million different ways of playing this game and no way to gauge who is "better" at playing).

Which gets us to the next point:

I would suggest you take a stronger path to getting your idea more widely accepted:

First, no johns. This applies to TOs as well as players. Simply saying "I can't" is not an option to getting a rule changed. When one expressively pushes ideas of how things should be without doing any work to get them to that point it's generally just seen as whining - not saying you are doing that, but complaining about things and expecting others to do your bidding at your every whim is not going to fly in this community.

Secondly, do you have"legit" johns? Are you honestly unable to host a tournament for some very real and physical reason that completely prevents you from doing so? Well, then, here's the unfortunate response: that sucks. Because chances are everyone who could host a tournament with whatever rules you wanted probably not only doesn't care but also would rather host a tournament the way they want instead. You're probably out of luck.

Finally, if you really think your ideas are so good that they should really be used by a larger audience and you've got people willing to host tournaments for you because it's that great of an idea then you're still going to have a long road ahead of you. Host tournaments, get recognized, and then you've got room to talk to other TOs about rules. Convincing TOs to use these rules is a difficult matter (hey, it takes me A LOT of effort just to convince TOs to stay with a competitive standard!), but convincing the players that new rules are better ules because you say so is not only much more difficult but it's probably impossible unless the rules actually are good. Let the free market decide which rules the players are going to use and accept that one person does not dictate how the game is played competitively - enjoy playing by your own rules with the people who also enjoy playing by those rules, it may be foolish to expect the world to change just for oneself, but and if the world follows the way you go then so be it.
Thanks for the interesting read and clearing things up. Your are right, "can't" was the wrong wording for my situation, it should have been "difficult, but possible".

However this brings me to one reason for discussing this here: I want feedback.
Hosting a tournament is a huge feat, so it would be bad having one with a poor ruleset. Thus I wanted hear what people have to say about it. I'm also particulary interestend in opinions from players, who are not in favor of customs (yet). So if this turns out to be a bad idea, nothing is lost. If it's generally accepted, I might try using it when hosting a tournament.

My other reason for posting here is to convince people trying it or help interested TOs to find a solution. To establish a possible ruleset you have to reach many people, so I thought this is a good place to post this idea. I don't expect anyone just adopting this idea, but if someone does, I'm glad that I posted it here.

So, those are my anwers to your post. However I don't want to let the discussion go into that direction and rather focus getting some feedback on the idea itself.

As it's an idea trying to get anti-customs people to accept customs I'm especially interested in opinions of those players. Do you like this? Do you hate this? Could you accept this? Whatever it is, please let me know and the reason behind that.
 

T0MMY

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Joined
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Messages
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So, those are my anwers to your post. However I don't want to let the discussion go into that direction and rather focus getting some feedback on the idea itself.

As it's an idea trying to get anti-customs people to accept customs I'm especially interested in opinions of those players. Do you like this? Do you hate this? Could you accept this? Whatever it is, please let me know and the reason behind that.
Good point, if anyone is looking for solutions for their customs events then you gave an option to work with.
However, I still feel like if someone is offering Customs in any form the easiest way to handle it is to simply say Custom Fighters: ON and make sure the moves are unlocked. And that's it.

I see your post not as a way to give a TO an option with Customs, but as a compromise offered to people who do not want to play with customs so you can play with them. Honestly, I don't think there's much use in trying to convince one side to play the way you do and compromise a little bit - competition is an all-or-nothing kind of environment where a single standard needs to be employed so we can have level ground to compete on.
 

Ghostbone

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It is relevant, as I've explained, because you have to have a reason for you to have a customs off ruleset, just like you need one for a customs on ruleset. If you want to say fully customizable miis should be allowed in customs off, the reason you have for having customs off in the first place must also not also dictate that miis should not be fully customizable.
My reason is that I prefer it, and customs are a toggle the same way stock or time is a toggle, and the better option is simply what the majority of players prefer. TOs will always go with what the majority of players prefer.
(I say my, but that's just for the sake of the argument, since my individual preference doesn't matter)

We can get into why the majority of players prefer it, the primary one being the ridiculous grinding required to unlock custom moves, but that's not what goes into the ruleset. The ruleset just says "customs set to on" or "customs set to off". Miis aren't covered under this, and they don't need to be, you're the one trying to twist it so that they're both included when they're not.

In my opinion, simple rulesets are the best rulesets. I'm asking you why we should put in extra clauses for mii fighters (which are required if you're going to ban their moves in customs off), and you keep ignoring it and just talk about customs instead.
 
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NotEvenAmatueR

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Jul 3, 2015
Messages
121
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The ruleset I want would be 2 stock, 5 minutes for the sake of time. My stage list is as follows.

Neutral Stages
-Battlefield/Miiverse (Counts as one stage)
-Palutena's Temple Omega (Most fair ledges of any Omega stage including FD in the game.)
-Smashville (Most fair stage in the game.)
-Dreamland (Debatable due to the low ceiling, but I want a full five stage list for neutral.)
-Town and City (There are moving platforms here, but they don't affect or obstruct gameplay too much.

Counter pick Stages:
- Duck Hunt (The walls are incredibly close to the stage and the platforms are unorthodox, however, I think it's fine as a counterpick.)
-Halberd (There is a stage hazard and a walk off point, but both are easily stopped and prevented.)
-Castle Seige ( A walk off point, but just fine otherwise.)
-Lylat cruise (The platforms are unorthodox and the stage tilts and obstructs projectiles, and affects recoveries that would otherwise make it back to the stage, but it is usually fine.)

I do not think Delfino should be legal because the stage obstructs normal play repeatedly and there are many camping spots and walk off points. The ceiling height changing is also pretty bad.

I believe customs should be off for all characters because it leaves all DLC fighters at a disadvantage, and it also adds extra time to the tournament.

However, I believe that Miis should have access to their customs, only because they're actually pretty useless otherwise, but they must be the default system height and should be selected from the mii guests.
 

TheAnomaly

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However, I believe that Miis should have access to their customs, only because they're actually pretty useless otherwise, but they must be the default system height and should be selected from the mii guests.
I agreed with your reasoning(not the ruleset but the reasoning was sound) for all the points up to this one. By this same logic customs should be on because ganon, palutena,msamus etc are all pretty useless otherwise.
 

NotEvenAmatueR

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I agreed with your reasoning(not the ruleset but the reasoning was sound) for all the points up to this one. By this same logic customs should be on because ganon, palutena,msamus etc are all pretty useless otherwise.
Yeah, I could see that. My reasoning for MII fighters having customs is because they start off with customs available, and you can quickly change it when creating a Mii. What do you disagree with on my ruleset?
 

John12346

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JohnNumbers
There aren't any serious issues. 5 minutes is a little dubious but you can run with it anyway. You should also make sure to specify how many stage bans there are and whether or not DSR is in effect (hint: it shouldn't).
 

NotEvenAmatueR

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Adding to my previous post. I believe we should do traditional double elimination. I believe the stage format should be traditional pick paper scissors, and the stage striking on first round should be 1-2-1. Stage striking in the following rounds, however, should be that the winner gets 2 stage strikes, unless in best of 5 sets.
There aren't any serious issues. 5 minutes is a little dubious but you can run with it anyway. You should also make sure to specify how many stage bans there are and whether or not DSR is in effect (hint: it shouldn't).
DSR should not be in affect. Also, hi John Numbers. We both have Quote as our profile pic and we both main Wii Fit. This is useless information, but I just thought it was kind of funny.
 

TheAnomaly

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Yeah, I could see that. My reasoning for MII fighters having customs is because they start off with customs available, and you can quickly change it when creating a Mii. What do you disagree with on my ruleset?
I'm a big fan of FLSS with larger stagelist but I can live with starter/counterpick if it seems fair. However having dreamland 64 and battlefield/miiverse on the starter side just doesn't seem fair. Speaking as a ZSS main you almost never want to take her there so your options are already extremely limited when playing her. I also prefer customs on to off because it just allows more characters to be viable but if your scene doesn't like them then so be it. As I said I had no problem with your reasoning for most of the ruleset but the point about Mii's just annoyed me because it wasn't sound reasoning.
 

NotEvenAmatueR

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I'm a big fan of FLSS with larger stagelist but I can live with starter/counterpick if it seems fair. However having dreamland 64 and battlefield/miiverse on the starter side just doesn't seem fair. Speaking as a ZSS main you almost never want to take her there so your options are already extremely limited when playing her. I also prefer customs on to off because it just allows more characters to be viable but if your scene doesn't like them then so be it. As I said I had no problem with your reasoning for most of the ruleset but the point about Mii's just annoyed me because it wasn't sound reasoning.
I understand. I'm kind of on the fence with dreamland as a starter. I definitely think battlefield/miiverse should be a starter stage though.
 

Ansou

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I understand. I'm kind of on the fence with dreamland as a starter. I definitely think battlefield/miiverse should be a starter stage though.
If you are really sure about sticking with the Starter/Counterpick system instead of FLSS and only have five starter stages, then perhaps you could have Lylat Cruise on the starter list instead of Dreamland as these stages are more different from each other.
 

TheAnomaly

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Yeh it would be best to swap Dreamland as a starter with another stage and if I'm being completely honest I would swap Town and City also. Half of the time it is FD with slightly different blast zones. I personally go to Town and City anytime I want FD but it has been struck. Yes, there are clear differences when the platforms are there and the blastzone difference matter but essentially it's a slight variation of FD. If you want stage diversity(which isn't always what people actually want) I would suggest swapping something with this on the starter list.
 

ParanoidDrone

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Chiming in to agree that Battlefield + Dream Land on the same starter list heavily slants the first game in favor of whichever character prefers a triangle platform setup more. The other guy is basically forced to strike both, which in turn means the first guy gets to choose freely between FD, SV, and T&C.

True story: A couple of weeks ago I attended a smallish local tournament, 36 people. Without fail, my opponent in every match struck either Battlefield or Dream Land for game 1. Also without fail, they never remembered to strike the other one. (Then again, this was the same tournament where someone forgot to ban Halberd vs. my Rosalina...)

I think if one insists on a Starter/Counterpick list, the starters should be chosen to offer a diverse variety of stage archetypes instead of simply the "least janky" stages. This way you don't get forced into trying to decide if you need to strike Battlefield or Battlefield-With-Wind. BF/FD/SV/T&C/LC gives you better spread of stage shapes to work with.
 
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NotEvenAmatueR

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Chiming in to agree that Battlefield + Dream Land on the same starter list heavily slants the first game in favor of whichever character prefers a triangle platform setup more. The other guy is basically forced to strike both, which in turn means the first guy gets to choose freely between FD, SV, and T&C.

True story: A couple of weeks ago I attended a smallish local tournament, 36 people. Without fail, my opponent in every match struck either Battlefield or Dream Land for game 1. Also without fail, they never remembered to strike the other one. (Then again, this was the same tournament where someone forgot to ban Halberd vs. my Rosalina...)

I think if one insists on a Starter/Counterpick list, the starters should be chosen to offer a diverse variety of stage archetypes instead of simply the "least janky" stages. This way you don't get forced into trying to decide if you need to strike Battlefield or Battlefield-With-Wind. BF/FD/SV/T&C/LC gives you better spread of stage shapes to work with.
Yeah. I'm beginning to think you're right. Maybe my list and reasoning was kind of flawed. I apologize. I'm still new to the tournament scene (I've only been to 2 so far.) Maybe the same starter/counterpick stage ruleset we've used for other games might not work here.
 

Ansou

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Yeah. I'm beginning to think you're right. Maybe my list and reasoning was kind of flawed. I apologize. I'm still new to the tournament scene (I've only been to 2 so far.) Maybe the same starter/counterpick stage ruleset we've used for other games might not work here.
Well it works, but basically matchups become statistically more balanced the more stages that are in the starter list. It's also pretty silly to "ban" some stages for the first match in the set and then have them legal in all the other matches.
 

Yikarur

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why are people still restricting Mii Fighters? This makes me really mad. Complex Bans are a bad thing. I really hate that apex started the idea that this could even be a solution -.-

I think I'll get a translated version for the German Standard Ruleset in here soon.
 
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