Meta Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion

[ぱみゅ]

WHY DOES THIS KEEP HAPPENING????
I hate how my country plays Smash.
It even has a terrible Suicide Rule, listing which moves are eligible to win the trade.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

WHY DOES THIS KEEP HAPPENING????
I hate how my country plays Smash.
It even has a terrible Suicide Rule, listing which moves are eligible to win the trade.

3 Starters? Holeymoley.
But I suffer nearly as much as you do here in Germany. I'm legitimately mad that everything that isn't 100% neutral is considered "jank". The word I hate too.

 

[adom4]

3 Starters? Holeymoley.
But I suffer nearly as much as you do here in Germany. I'm legitimately mad that everything that isn't 100% neutral is considered "jank". The word I hate too.

It seems that almost anything that is remotely good this days is "jank".

 

[A_Kae]

What does 'jank' even mean?

I seriously don't know if it's supposed to mean anything besides 'I don't like this'.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

What does 'jank' even mean?

I seriously don't know if it's supposed to mean anything besides 'I don't like this'.

It's a buzzword for things you can't deal with, no matter if rightfully so or not.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I define "jank" as something unreasonable to deal with, not something I can't deal with. But that word has been overused and lost all meaning here in smashboards, along with "johns," "salt(y)," and "toxic."

 

[Yikarur]

Mii's should be allowed with any moveset. This is absolutely important. Don't steal people's main.

 

[MajorMajora]

Mii's should be allowed with any moveset. This is absolutely important. Don't steal people's main.

This logic applies to literally every main. Let all customs be legal.

 

[Yikarur]

This logic applies to literally every main. Let all customs be legal.

There is an obvious difference.
When you decide to play Mii you go into the Mii Creator and create your Mii. Then you can play that exact Mii regardless of Custom off or on. There is nothing in any setting that implies that you have to restrict yourself in your choice of moveset.

 

[MajorMajora]

There is an obvious difference.
When you decide to play Mii you go into the Mii Creator and create your Mii. Then you can play that exact Mii regardless of Custom off or on. There is nothing in any setting that implies that you have to restrict yourself in your choice of moveset.

A feel like the menu is a silly thing to base things off of. As opposed to, I don't know, actual gameplay or what makes for a better competitive experience. It's like saying we suddenly care about what Sakurai has to say.

From a gameplay point of view (the one that matters for the actual competitive experience.), every argument that works for mmiis works for all other custom moves, and vice versa. It's all or nothing, really.

You said "let me play my main", implying that there is a problem not giving people all the options available, in case they are used to playing one of them. Same applies to custom moves of other characters. Literally any argument you can make for either side, outside of defaulting to what the menu of all things says, applies to both of them, because they play the same. The menu also lets you pick GCO, doesn't mean we should be able to.

"But GCO is harmful to gameplay, Miis moves 2-3 aren't". Well, any argument for those moves being unharmful is also an argument to other custom moves being unharmful.

 

[Ghostbone]

A feel like the menu is a silly thing to base things off of. As opposed to, I don't know, actual gameplay or what makes for a better competitive experience. It's like saying we suddenly care about what Sakurai has to say.

Yea and lets give Bowser mains the win when they suicide with side-b, despite the fact the game says they lose.
Hey, lets even extend that to Sheik and ZSS down-airs even if they die first, because we don't care about the consistency of the game anymore so we can make whatever rules we want.

Saying the way the game treats custom moves is a silly way to treat custom moves is like saying the way the game treats the winner is a silly way to decide the winner. Unless there's something uncompetitive in the way the game treats something (sudden death is uncompetitive, we don't use sudden death), then why make the ruleset more complicated. (in this case, miis are usable without customs on, so why limit them if they're not uncompetitive.

To equate miis specials and custom moves is to not understand the difference between them, logistically, competitively, etc. And when the argument is about a custom's off ruleset, then custom moves don't come into the equation at all. Stop trying to sabotage certain characters' options as some protest against the format.

 

[Thecombosetups]

Well my local tournament scene by having been very open on stage choices having 5 starters and 12 counterpicks. Also they been running 3 stock 6 minutes. Recently they allow miis to use all of their moves.

 

[MajorMajora]

Yea and lets give Bowser mains the win when they suicide with side-b, despite the fact the game says they lose.
Hey, lets even extend that to Sheik and ZSS down-airs even if they die first, because we don't care about the consistency of the game anymore so we can make whatever rules we want.

Saying the way the game treats custom moves is a silly way to treat custom moves is like saying the way the game treats the winner is a silly way to decide the winner. Unless there's something uncompetitive in the way the game treats something (sudden death is uncompetitive, we don't use sudden death), then why make the ruleset more complicated. (in this case, miis are usable without customs on, so why limit them if they're not uncompetitive.

To equate miis specials and custom moves is to not understand the difference between them, logistically, competitively, etc. And when the argument is about a custom's off ruleset, then custom moves don't come into the equation at all. Stop trying to sabotage certain characters' options as some protest against the format.

My point is that if there's just about any reason to ban customs at all, that argument would naturally extend to mii's non-1-moves. So if you're arguing non-customs for anything other than logistics, then mii's shouldn't get them, unless you have some crazy other argument that goes against only non-mii customs. If it is for logistics, then the ruleset you make better include Palutena's customs.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

My point is that if there's just about any reason to ban customs at all, that argument would naturally extend to mii's non-1-moves. So if you're arguing non-customs for anything other than logistics, then mii's shouldn't get them, unless you have some crazy other argument that goes against only non-mii customs. If it is for logistics, then the ruleset you make better include Palutena's customs.

This is actually a neat idea.

 

[Ghostbone]

Miis moves aren't customs, palutena's moves are.

Convince me why palutena should get special treatment, right now you're just telling me mii's should be unfairly treated and not get access to special moves they're allowed to use by default. Other character's can't change their specials without turning customs on so they're not important.

 

[topspin1617]

Miis moves aren't customs, palutena's moves are.

Convince me why palutena should get special treatment, right now you're just telling me mii's should be unfairly treated and not get access to special moves they're allowed to use by default. Other character's can't change their specials without turning customs on so they're not important.

I'd say it's a simple matter of fairness... why should Miis have more options than other fighters?

 

[Ghostbone]

I'd say it's a simple matter of fairness... why should Miis have more options than other fighters?

Why should marth get a sword?
Why should sheik have a projectile?
Why should kirby get multiple jumps?
Why should little mac get super armour on smash attacks?
Why should Diddy get items? (Even though items are turned off, like customs)
Your question is literally meaningless. They have "more options" because they were programmed that way.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I am a Mii main, but I see Miis in a very different light.

I beleive you either have Miis ON or Miis OFF.

Miis do not exist as a character until you make one., If you allow someone to make a Mii, you are accepting their customizable nature in the game. 1-1-1-1 isn't their "default", they don't have one at all. So if you have Miis available, you accept that they should have their full moveset.

If not, it's simple to say Miis are off. I don't think the custom moves debate is what we should be looking at for Miis, it really is if we want to have them on at all. I know @Jigglymaster has explained this concept much better.

 

[Illuminose]

I am a Mii main, but I see Miis in a very different light.

I beleive you either have Miis ON or Miis OFF.

Miis do not exist as a character until you make one., If you allow someone to make a Mii, you are accepting their customizable nature in the game. 1-1-1-1 isn't their "default", they don't have one at all. So if you have Miis available, you accept that they should have their full moveset.

If not, it's simple to say Miis are off. I don't think the custom moves debate is what we should be looking at for Miis, it really is if we want to have them on at all. I know @Jigglymaster has explained this concept much better.

1111 is just a compromise. The other answer is no Miis, which I'm also fine with but don't see the harm in allowing 1111 Miis if people want to play them because every character's default set of specials is 1111, and we can allow Miis this way while avoiding the issues generally presented by Miis (unfair access to more options than other characters, ability to counterpick sets). The ultimatum of Miis on or Miis off only comes from Mii mains who feel entitled to all of their options. There is no standard set of Miis that come with the game and they inherently receive special treatment, so we are allowed to standardize them if we want to allow them at all. More people benefit from standardizing Miis to 1111 than turning them off entirely. Just because some don't WANT to play 1111 Miis is completely irrelevant. Pick another character then.

 

[Ajimi]

Ryu has double the tilts than any other fighter, and everyone is fine with that.

Most characters have a gimmick. The only difference is that Miis gimmick is pre-match, so what ? They were made with customisation in mind, we cannot even change this behaviour in-game. Miis are not affected by the "customisation" menu switch because they were build that way and intended to be played that way, so we don't have to add external rules to artificially limit them. It's like, we turn items off, we don't ban them. If we really banned items, Peach and G&W would be forbidden in competition.

A real compromise would be to limit people to 1 Mii / type / player / set. Free to choose any Mii customs before the set begins, but then these customs are locked for the entire set.

 

[Ghostbone]

1111 is just a compromise. The other answer is no Miis, which I'm also fine with but don't see the harm in allowing 1111 Miis if people want to play them because every character's default set of specials is 1111, and we can allow Miis this way while avoiding the issues generally presented by Miis (unfair access to more options than other characters, ability to counterpick sets). The ultimatum of Miis on or Miis off only comes from Mii mains who feel entitled to all of their options. There is no standard set of Miis that come with the game and they inherently receive special treatment, so we are allowed to standardize them if we want to allow them at all. More people benefit from standardizing Miis to 1111 than turning them off entirely. Just because some don't WANT to play 1111 Miis is completely irrelevant. Pick another character then.

Compromise doesn't solve the problem.

Some people want miis banned (or effectively banned, and they don't actually care/understand the character), and some want miis legal, making miis half legal doesn't actually make anyone happy so it's pointless. Nobody actually benefits from only allowing 1111, except smug TOs who think they're being fair and unbiased or something.

It's not unfair that miis have more specials just as it's not unfair that Diddy has items. And I don't see how you're worried about set counter-picking, they should just pick the specials at the same time they'd normally pick their character.

 

[Illuminose]

Compromise doesn't solve the problem.

Some people want miis banned (or effectively banned, and they don't actually care/understand the character), and some want miis legal, making miis half legal doesn't actually make anyone happy so it's pointless. Nobody actually benefits from only allowing 1111, except smug TOs who think they're being fair and unbiased or something.

It's not unfair that miis have more specials just as it's not unfair that Diddy has items. And I don't see how you're worried about set counter-picking, they should just pick the specials at the same time they'd normally pick their character.

The people who want to play 1111 Miis benefit from this. If you don't believe me...see: Trela's Swordfighter. No one is against 1111 except Mii mains arguing on principle and people who don't want an endless argument.

These are things on different magnitudes of importance. Although various characters have access to special options, ALL of them except Miis are limited to one moveset. It's unfair because every character only has one set of options. Diddy pulling a banana is not the point, he only has access to one Down B. He can't switch his Down B to spawn Mr Saturns or something like that.

 

[Ghostbone]

In any given match, the mii fighters are only limited to one set of specials, so I don't see your point. It's trivial learning what they all do, plus generally one set is the best in pretty much every matchup (i guess gunner wants reflector instead of bomb drop in some matchups) so lol.
Trela doesn't even play swordfighter anymore, and mii mains are still ridiculously sparse because their character is effectively banned. People don't need to argue against 1111 because miis aren't broken so they'd look like a **** for banning them. The argument isn't logically consistent though, and those TOs are still ******* for banning all other mii sets when the miis aren't broken, but since that's currently the precedent set by APEX they're not getting called out for it.

Ryu gets access to a ridiculous amount of moves each game yet we don't ban half of them. We didn't ban transforming characters in previous games because it's unfair to other characters. Unfair doesn't make sense, unfair is when a character is overpowered, unfair isn't when a character has a unique attribute (being able to spawn items, super armour on every smash, being able to choose your specials at the same time you choose your character, having a ridiculous amount of normals and specials to input, being able to float, etc.)

 

[Illuminose]

In any given match, the mii fighters are only limited to one set of specials, so I don't see your point. It's trivial learning what they all do, plus generally one set is the best in pretty much every matchup (i guess gunner wants reflector instead of bomb drop in some matchups) so lol.
Trela doesn't even play swordfighter anymore, and mii mains are still ridiculously sparse because their character is effectively banned. People don't need to argue against 1111 because miis aren't broken so they'd look like a **** for banning them. The argument isn't logically consistent though, and those TOs are still ******* for banning all other mii sets when the miis aren't broken, but since that's currently the precedent set by APEX they're not getting called out for it.

Ryu gets access to a ridiculous amount of moves each game yet we don't ban half of them. We didn't ban transforming characters in previous games because it's unfair to other characters. Unfair doesn't make sense, unfair is when a character is overpowered, unfair isn't when a character has a unique attribute (being able to spawn items, super armour on every smash, being able to choose your specials at the same time you choose your character, having a ridiculous amount of normals and specials to input, being able to float, etc.)

Having multiple special move options to pick at any given time is an advantage on an entire other magnitude than any other character special attribute in the entire game. Every other character with special advantages still has one moveset.

 

[Yikarur]

A feel like the menu is a silly thing to base things off of. As opposed to, I don't know, actual gameplay or what makes for a better competitive experience. It's like saying we suddenly care about what Sakurai has to say.

We always go by the game. We take what the game offers us and substract everything that is uncompetitive. This is how ruleset are created and how they should be created.

What changes did we make?
- We decided for Stock over Time, because Time 1on1's are uncompetitive
- We decided to add a time limit, because Matches cannot last forever.
- We put items to "off" because they are completely random.
- Everything else is default. (except for Team Attack, but that is not interesting here)

Where does the game now tell you "Mii's have to be 1111" ?
You go by the game. It's as easy as that. Everything you decide that violates the game is an arbitrary decision.

Regarding Mii's there are only two options that are coherent:
- You allow Mii Fighter. With this you allow any moveset, because the game says so.
- You ban Mii Fighter. You don't allow Mii Fighter overall, because he is a custom character.
Any "compromiss" inbetween is arbitrary and not coherent at all. But because we don't want to ban an entire character we rather go with the first option. (I'd boycott any tournament that bans Mii's)

 

[MajorMajora]

You know, I've really been making the point that I have yet to see be a non-logistic train of thought that both concludes the banning of customs and allowing all of mii's moves is the best way to go, other than that the miis suck without them, which is a pretty dumb reason. Sometimes characters suck, deal with it.

 

[Ajimi]

"Every character only has one set of options" is completely subjective when the numbers of options is not (and has never been) the same for each character in the first place. Ryu has twice as much normals, Peach can float, Peach/G&W/Diddy can spawn items, etc. Letting Mii chose their moves is not more "unfair" than any other character-specific gimmick, because they were built that way and intended to be played that way.

We do not want to "allow only Mii customs", because others customs DO NOT EVEN EXIST when the setting is "off". Mii ones do. In fact we just want you to leave them alone, simple as that. You can't go against in-game logic and amputate them of the very reason they exist without a strong competitive argument (is, say, 2132 Brawler broken ?) ; neither you can restrict them to 1111 when it makes no sense other than "1 comes before 2 and 3" (why not restrict them to 2222 or 3311 instead ?).

In any given match, they still have only one moveset. If you're worried about "counterpicking specials" between matches, then fine. I do not necessarily agree, but I can see why you see it as a valid concern. Except that the solution to that is NOT to restrict them to an arbitrary-chosen set of specials.

As I proposed earlier, you can instead lock each player choice at the beginning of their set : if I want to play 2213 Gunner, I say it before I start playing, and during that set I will not be allowed to switch to 1213, only stick to 2213. It is both valid from a "fairness" point of view (in regard to counterpicking) and from an in-game stance.

 

[san.]

Think about why rules are in place and what it means for the community to intervene concerning game decisions and then we'll be on the same page.

We always go by the game. We take what the game offers us and substract everything that is uncompetitive. This is how ruleset are created and how they should be created.

True or false? Read this carefully.

 

[Ghostbone]

You know, I've really been making the point that I have yet to see be a non-logistic train of thought that both concludes the banning of customs and allowing all of mii's moves is the best way to go, other than that the miis suck without them, which is a pretty dumb reason. Sometimes characters suck, deal with it.

Then you haven't actually been reading anyone's posts (or at least, read and understood them). If you're going to be rude and ignore people's arguments then I'll be rude and call you out.

Literally nobody has used the justification that miis suck without their alternate specials to promote their legality. We've said that miis aren't broken or uncompetitive with their special moves so they should be allowed by default (this is the thought process we should use for all aspects of the ruleset). This is different from custom moves because custom moves have to be toggled on by the game, so when that toggle is off, anything to do with it is unimportant.

Imagine if custom moves weren't a thing, and only mii fighters could ever change their specials, would you still be against them being able to use them? Likely not, and that's how you should treat the situation. Customs on doesn't matter when we're talking about a custom's off ruleset, it might as well not exist.

 

[MajorMajora]

Then you haven't actually been reading anyone's posts (or at least, read and understood them). If you're going to be rude and ignore people's arguments then I'll be rude and call you out.

Literally nobody has used the justification that miis suck without their alternate specials to promote their legality. We've said that miis aren't broken or uncompetitive with their special moves so they should be allowed by default (this is the thought process we should use for all aspects of the ruleset). This is different from custom moves because custom moves have to be toggled on by the game, so when that toggle is off, anything to do with it is unimportant.

Imagine if custom moves weren't a thing, and only mii fighters could ever change their specials, would you still be against them being able to use them? Likely not, and that's how you should treat the situation. Customs on doesn't matter when we're talking about a custom's off ruleset, it might as well not exist.

I've always thought the "customs off ruleset" was a ruleset where customs are banned because they are considered broken, not one where we just turn the option in the top right corner to off (something that seems very arbitrary and, oh right, was just about never even discussed until mii's entered the discussion). So therefore any customs off ruleset must be based on some sort of reasoning as to why customs are banned. Here are the reasons that I have seen as arguments for customs being banned*:

1. DLC fighters only have 1 option for each special move: If this is a valid argument, Miis should only have 1 as well.
2. Allowing moves 2-3 for each special move is inherently bad due to making the game to special oriented, therefore making the game too defensive: If this is a valid argument, moves 2-3 of mii fighters should also be banned.
3. Many moves 2-3 are considered broken or overly-centralizing, so it is healthier for the game to only have moves 1. These complained about moves includes some moves 2-3 of mii fighters. If this is a valid argument, mii fighter moves 2-3 should be banned.
4. As a logistical issue in some tournaments, getting all special moves is not something that can be done reliably. If this is the case, Palutena's moves 2-3 should be allowed if Mii fighters are allowed.
5. Most moves 2-3 are intended only for casual play and are not properly balanced for competitive. Mii fighters were meant to be customizable, so their moves 2-3 should be allowed. If this is the case, Palutena's moves 2-3 should also be allowed.
6. Sakurai has determined only special moves 1 should be allowed for competitive as shown by him banning them for For Glory mode. If this is a valid case, all non-omega stages should be banned.
7. I am a TO whose player base hates moves 2-3 for most characters I believe that All options should be made available to the player if reasonable and possible. In this case only mii fighters will be available for moves 2-3 at the exclusion of other characters should the player base be okay with this, whatever the reason for them being okay with it may be.

*From this point on I'm not going to use the terminology of 'custom moves' because it's, for all intents and purposes, a strictly semantic term. I will instead use the words to describe things literally based on their effect in the game.

Now, I don't agree with any of the above arguments (except 7, but that's not really valid here since it would be in a per-tourny thing), but those are the ones I can think of for a no custom ruleset. Unless I'm missing something.

 

[Ghostbone]

You literally ignored my argument, substituted a different argument then tried to reason against that.

That's the quintessential strawman, so I'm not going to bother responding.

 

[Ajimi]

You're still reasoning and comparing with "customs on" in mind. It's completely irrelevant. Other character's customs do not even exist in this meta, not even Palutena's. "Customs off" is, well, customs turned off by a menu toggle, and is a different thing entirely than banning them. Same thing with "items off" and not "items banned" (cf. Peach/G&W/Diddy). It's not an arbitrary external rule we pulled out of our hats, it's the damn game itself.

 

[Xeze]

Just a little thought that I had: why don't the Mii Fighter's players agree on the best set for each class (Brawler, Gunner, Swordfighter) and that becomes the "standard set" to be used in tournaments? It can be done with customs off and this way they would have only 1 moveset each. I know Palutena becomes the elephant in the room, but still.

 

[Yikarur]

Just a little thought that I had: why don't the Mii Fighter's players agree on the best set for each class (Brawler, Gunner, Swordfighter) and that becomes the "standard set" to be used in tournaments? It can be done with customs off and this way they would have only 1 moveset each. I know Palutena becomes the elephant in the room, but still.

because this would be an arbitrary decision. A ruleset must be able to be created in a vacuum. That's why I don't like the custom standard project. It's arbitrary, It's incoherent.
but beside that: There is no reason why we should just pick one option, when the game allows us to use any. There is no reason to go against the game on this.

 

[MajorMajora]

You literally ignored my argument, substituted a different argument then tried to reason against that.

That's the quintessential strawman, so I'm not going to bother responding.

A: I'm sorry for misunderstanding your point, could you restate it in a different way?

B: Most of my post wasn't directly at you, but a general statement of my feelings on the matter. The main point of it has yet to be discussed by the other side no matter how many different ways I state it. To be absolutely clear:

"[Any] customs off ruleset must be based on some sort of reasoning as to why customs are banned."

"Here are the reasons that I have seen as arguments for customs being banned*:

1. DLC fighters only have 1 option for each special move: If this is a valid argument, Miis should only have 1 as well.
2. Allowing moves 2-3 for each special move is inherently bad due to making the game to special oriented, therefore making the game too defensive: If this is a valid argument, moves 2-3 of mii fighters should also be banned.
3. Many moves 2-3 are considered broken or overly-centralizing, so it is healthier for the game to only have moves 1. These complained about moves includes some moves 2-3 of mii fighters. If this is a valid argument, mii fighter moves 2-3 should be banned.
4. As a logistical issue in some tournaments, getting all special moves is not something that can be done reliably. If this is the case, Palutena's moves 2-3 should be allowed if Mii fighters are allowed.
5. Most moves 2-3 are intended only for casual play and are not properly balanced for competitive. Mii fighters were meant to be customizable, so their moves 2-3 should be allowed. If this is the case, Palutena's moves 2-3 should also be allowed.
6. Sakurai has determined only special moves 1 should be allowed for competitive as shown by him banning them for For Glory mode. If this is a valid case, all non-omega stages should be banned.
7. I am a TO whose player base hates moves 2-3 for most characters I believe that All options should be made available to the player if reasonable and possible. In this case only mii fighters will be available for moves 2-3 at the exclusion of other characters should the player base be okay with this, whatever the reason for them being okay with it may be."

My argument is that any justification for the banning of non mii fighter moves 2-3 but also keeps mii gither moves 2-3 does not exist in the first place, except for in the case of 7 where it is based entirely on popular opinion rather than, say, logic. Any ruleset that has all fighters locked to 1111 except for mii fighters is, according to my argument, inherently illogical, because it is impossible to come to that ruleset in a way that follows consistent logic.

If you have a reason for why customs should be banned that is none of the above, and it completely coincides with both the ideas of having mii fighter moves 2-3 be banned and Palutena's moves 2-3 be banned, please inform me. Alternatively, you could contradict my argument by providing a reason as to why you don't need proper justification to have a "customs off' ruleset. These are the two ways you could directly contradict my above argument. If you are interested in arguing against me, these are the best ways to do so (unless, of course, there is another potential flaw in my argument I have not thought of, which is very possible. These are just the ones I can think of).

 

[Ajimi]

[Any] customs off ruleset must be based on some sort of reasoning as to why customs are turned off. Turned. Off.

 

[MajorMajora]

[Any] customs off ruleset must be based on some sort of reasoning as to why customs are turned off. Turned. Off.

Enunciate your point please. Is your point that we should go with the rules detailed by the customs off in game rules because they are the default? If this is the case, do you also believe we should do 2 minute time matches? Sorry if I accidentally misinterpreted your point, there wasn't much to go on.

 

[Ajimi]

I already stated my opinion, and I don't really know how to express it again without repeating myself, or paraphrasing Ghostbone and Yikarur. You're searching for logical reasons to ban customs as a whole, when we're already talking about a custom off ruleset and meta. For all intents and purposes, forget all other customs, because right now in this discussion, they do not exist at all. Take the game as if they never existed in the first place.

The rule about making a ruleset is not "we always go by the game", it's "we always go by the game unless something is uncompetitive". We take all stages, and ban those who are proven uncompetitive. Items are uncompetitive, so they are turned off (again, not "banned", otherwise Peach, G&W and Diddy (who can spawn items) would be banned too).
And yes, I do not see any problem with 2 minutes time matches. Unless I'm missing something, from a fundamental standpoint, they are as competitive as stock matches. They are equally competitive, but since the community find stock matches more interesting, we go by that instead of default which is no harm.

Now back to the subject. We live in a world where absolutely no character can swap their specials, since variations do not even exist. Except Miis, who by nature are made to be customized and are intended to be played that way. This is their gimmick, as any other character-specific gimmick. That is the state of the game at this point, and cannot ever be changed by in-game rules.

We just want one thing : doing nothing.

You, want to restrict Miis. Why ? Do they make the game unplayable ? Are they bugged ? Do choosing specials takes a tremendous amount of time (as in, more than stage striking, inputting player tags or "hand-warmers") ? Are they so completely unbalanced that not choosing a Mii as a character each match is a huge strategical mistake ?

Well, I think the answer to each of those questions is "no". Letting Miis choose their specials is not uncompetitive. So, why bother ? Why bother going against the game internal logic, AND against players who rightfully want to play the character how he is intended to be played, when there is obviously not any non-competitive reason to sustain that ?

 

[MajorMajora]

I already stated my opinion, and I don't really know how to express it again without repeating myself, or paraphrasing Ghostbone and Yikarur. You're searching for logical reasons to ban customs as a whole, when we're already talking about a custom off ruleset and meta. For all intents and purposes, forget all other customs, because right now in this discussion, they do not exist at all. Take the game as if they never existed in the first place.

The rule about making a ruleset is not "we always go by the game", it's "we always go by the game unless something is uncompetitive". We take all stages, and ban those who are proven uncompetitive. Items are uncompetitive, so they are turned off (again, not "banned", otherwise Peach, G&W and Diddy (who can spawn items) would be banned too).
And yes, I do not see any problem with 2 minutes time matches. Unless I'm missing something, from a fundamental standpoint, they are as competitive as stock matches. They are equally competitive, but since the community find stock matches more interesting, we go by that instead of default which is no harm.

Now back to the subject. We live in a world where absolutely no character can swap their specials, since variations do not even exist. Except Miis, who by nature are made to be customized and are intended to be played that way. This is their gimmick, as any other character-specific gimmick. That is the state of the game at this point, and cannot ever be changed by in-game rules.

We just want one thing : doing nothing.

You, want to restrict Miis. Why ? Do they make the game unplayable ? Are they bugged ? Do choosing specials takes a tremendous amount of time (as in, more than stage striking, inputting player tags or "hand-warmers") ? Are they so completely unbalanced that not choosing a Mii as a character each match is a huge strategical mistake ?

Well, I think the answer to each of those questions is "no". Letting Miis choose their specials is not uncompetitive. So, why bother ? Why bother going against the game internal logic, AND against players who rightfully want to play the character how he is intended to be played, when there is obviously not any non-competitive reason to sustain that ?

I've never wanted to restrict Mii's. I've made this clear many times. I am in favor of all customs specials.

Now, from your argument here, you are taking customs off as a given. This has been the misunderstanding I've had in this discussion up through now. Thank you very much for clearing that up. I also apologize for misunderstanding your point and putting words in your mouth.

I'm very confused by the sentiment that we are talking about a customs off meta as a given. I was assuming that here we were talking about what would be "The ideal ruleset", or something in that general ball park. Therefore, I was basing all of my logic around the assertion that everyone arguing for a customs off ruleset with miis fully customizable were, there fore, both in favor of customizable miis and in favor of there being no customs, which I believed (and still do) to be contradictory sentiments.

So I present this question to all of you in favor of customs off+customizable miis. If you had to choose between a "customs off" ruleset or a "customs on" ruleset (terms which I personally hate but whatever), which one would you support as the universal smash 4 ruleset, or perhaps simply for the one for your local scene? In other words, do you believe there is something wrong with a "customs on" meta? I don't want to say anything else untill I here an answer(s) to this.

 

[Ajimi]

No problem, I also apologize since I apparently misunderstood you too.

To me, customs off is a "given" in this discussion only, in the sense that it's pointless to discuss Mii's status otherwise. It would be ridiculous to restrict them in a customs on ruleset, so when we talk about them it is generally considering customs turned off. If you want to know I am in favor of all customs, but again this is another debate entirely, since we were initially talking about Mii's specials specifically.

Why do you think it's contradictory to defend fully customizable Miis in a custom off environment ? They get special treatment because of the game itself (not affected by the menu toggle, two separate options in tourney mode for both customs and Miis, created via a different menu etc), not because we wanted to favour them ourselves. Again, I don't see why it is "bad" or uncompetitive or contradictory to simply go by the game.