Meta Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion

[ParanoidDrone]

I actually want to mention about this, during the POTD phase of Smash 4, before its official release, Sakurai had mentioned that any delayed deaths like that would be disabled as the game was wrapping up. Of course, it was something I kept in mind as I messed about with the game after it was released.

As someone who plays a good deal of For Fun in their spare time, I can confirm with 100% certainty: Star KOs and Screen KOs are disabled during the last 5 seconds of the game.

Doesn't this only apply to the actual timer though? In our context most games don't really come close to timing out.

 

[dav3yb]

I actually want to mention about this, during the POTD phase of Smash 4, before its official release, Sakurai had mentioned that any delayed deaths like that would be disabled as the game was wrapping up. Of course, it was something I kept in mind as I messed about with the game after it was released.

As someone who plays a good deal of For Fun in their spare time, I can confirm with 100% certainty: Star KOs and Screen KOs are disabled during the last 5 seconds of the game.

Ah, this make sense then. good to know.

 

[b2jammer]

Doesn't this only apply to the actual timer though? In our context most games don't really come close to timing out.

Yes, just the timer. So there's still the problem with one person getting Screen/Star KO'd, while the other gets Blast KO'd before the animation is finished. I guess it's a discouragement from risky vertical kills...?

 

[Ghostbone]

Yes, just the timer. So there's still the problem with one person getting Screen/Star KO'd, while the other gets Blast KO'd before the animation is finished. I guess it's a discouragement from risky vertical kills...?

Basically, don't try to rest someone offstage.

 

[Dagon97]

Tentative Ruleset: (Criticism would be appreciated.)
Double Elimination
Bo3 until Winners, Losers and Grand Finals, that will be Bo5.
2 stocks 5 minutes (Max play time of 15mins of a Bo3 set and 25mins for a Bo5 set is good.)
Custom Moves and Equipment: Illegal
The Mii Fighters will be limited to medium size: 1111, 2222, or 3333.
Palutena will be limited to: 1111, 2222, or 3333

Stages:

-Starter:
BF (Miiverse is only allowed Game 2 and beyond.)
FD (Omega stages are only allowed Game 2 and beyond.)
Smashville
Town & City
Lylat Cruise

-Counter-picks:
Kongo Jungle 64
Skyloft
Halbred
Castle Seige
Whuhu Island
Duck Hunt
Delfino Plaza

Stage Striking:
The players will RPS, the winner will select their character, then the loser will select their character.
Stage striking will then commence with the winner of the RPS striking two stages then the loser selecting two stages until one stage remains. The two players will now lock in their characters, with the loser of the RPS locking in first. The one remaining stage is what will be played on in game 1. The music will be up to the winner of the RPS's discretion.

Stage banning and counter-picking:
In Bo3 the winner on game 1/2 will ban 3 stages and in Bo5 the winner of the previous game will ban 2 stages. The loser of the previous game can counter-pick any stage from the legal stagelist not just the starters. When counter-picking to FD the player may choose any Omega. It will not be chosen by gentlemen agreement. Likewise goes for BF and Miiverse. When banning FD/BF all of the Omega stages will be banned along with FD, same goes for BF and Miiverse. The stage music is to the counter-picker's discretion.

 

[Ansou]

Tentative Ruleset: (Criticism would be appreciated.)
Double Elimination
Bo3 until Winners, Losers and Grand Finals, that will be Bo5.
2 stocks 5 minutes (Max play time of 15mins of a Bo3 set and 25mins for a Bo5 set is good.)
Custom Moves and Equipment: Illegal
The Mii Fighters will be limited to medium size: 1111, 2222, or 3333.
Palutena will be limited to: 1111, 2222, or 3333

Stages:

-Starter:
BF (Miiverse is only allowed Game 2 and beyond.)
FD (Omega stages are only allowed Game 2 and beyond.)
Smashville
Town & City
Lylat Cruise

-Counter-picks:
Kongo Jungle 64
Skyloft
Halbred
Castle Seige
Whuhu Island
Duck Hunt
Delfino Plaza

Stage Striking:
The players will RPS, the winner will select their character, then the loser will select their character.
Stage striking will then commence with the winner of the RPS striking two stages then the loser selecting two stages until one stage remains. The two players will now lock in their characters, with the loser of the RPS locking in first. The one remaining stage is what will be played on in game 1. The music will be up to the winner of the RPS's discretion.

Stage banning and counter-picking:
In Bo3 the winner on game 1/2 will ban 3 stages and in Bo5 the winner of the previous game will ban 2 stages. The loser of the previous game can counter-pick any stage from the legal stagelist not just the starters. When counter-picking to FD the player may choose any Omega. It will not be chosen by gentlemen agreement. Likewise goes for BF and Miiverse. When banning FD/BF all of the Omega stages will be banned along with FD, same goes for BF and Miiverse. The stage music is to the counter-picker's discretion.

Looks like a working ruleset, but I have some things to point out.

Character selection:
The system that you have favours the loser of the RPS as they have the ability to counterpick a character. To prevent this, both players should choose a character at the same time. If any of the players want to, they can issue a double blind pick, which means that they will both tell a third person which characters they want to use before telling each other. There is also not really a reason to character lock players for the whole set. For game 2 and 3, the winner of the previous game should choose character first with the loser choosing afterwards. This way the matchup doesn't have to be the same for the whole set as the losing player can adjust.

Stage striking:
You said that the winner strikes 2 stages and the loser then strikes 2 stages. This also gives the loser of RPS and advantage as the last strike is much weaker than the first strike. If you strike in the order of 1-2-1 instead of 2-2 it will be more fair as the person with the weakest strike also has the strongest strike. Also, there is a more fair system for stage striking than to have a starter list and a counterpick list. If you have all stages in the same list and strike from the full list, this means that the resulting stage will have a statistically higher chance of being the most fair stage in the matchup. This however, means that you need to add one stage to your list to make the number of stages 13 so that the players can strike 1-2-2-2-2-2-1 instead. If you have access to DLC stages, adding Dreamland 64 to your current stage list would be nice. Also, if your players have a hard time striking from this many stages, they can use the random stage switch screen to take away stages by just clicking on them.

Stock and time:
Most players prefer to play with 3 stock 8 minutes as it gives the match less variance and gives the players more chances.

Custom moves:
If you have the means to do it, you should probably allow custom movesets from this thread while also allowing players to import their own movesets to slot 9 and 10. This gives players more options while still not being game-breaking (like items or equipment). If you have a 3DS with all custom moves unlocked or you have someone in the area who has, you can transfer the movesets in the community list to all Wii U consoles from the 3DS.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The 1111/2222/3333 rule is bad. Get rid of it.

Other than that, 2 stocks is fine (3 would be, too).
The Stagelist is... fine I guess, I would really recommend the FLSS though. Just one question, is there a reason why DLC stages are not allowed?

 

[Cylent]

I've been to two stock and three stock tourneys. Personally I'm a fan of the three stock over the two stock.
It feels like who ever loses the first stock in two stock is almost guaranteed to lose the game.
There's no time to gain momentum when you're already down to the line.
Three stock allows for a more likely come back and makes the match a true battle of momentum and reads.

 

[ぱみゅ]

That being said (statistics time!), about 80% of the time, on a 3-stock match, the one who lost the stock first will lose the game.
I personally like the idea of having 2 stock for the earlier phases of the Tournament, and 3 stock for the late ones.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So today, I killed a Ryu at 40% with Falco Bthrow on the smashville platform, in a real match... Twice. Can we please treat smashville like what it is: a partial/transforming walk off? Pretty please?

I died to a CF jab at 0 on that platform. Smashville is incredibly janky, but nobody seems to notice or care.

 

[Banette]

I think Smash 4 should be played with four stocks actually: yesterday I played Melee again and SDed twice with Ganondorf before I was warmed up; the two stocks I had left were enough to make a comeback, but the outcome would probably not have been the same were we playing a 3-stock match. Imagine losing a game just because you messed up twice against an opponent that isn't even 'better' than you are! The result would be illegitimate.

We all know that the first stock(s) of a game doesn't really count in deciding the better player: imagine losing a game because the opponent outplayed you the entire first stock, when by stock two things are more even! One player needing more time to figure out their opponent doesn't mean that player is less skillful! In fact we should probably play with as many stocks as possible, then when both players are comfortable facing each other, have both players SD until they have one stock left. That way we get rid of any advantages one player might have had over another, and ensure that the only stock that counts is played in an environment as fair as possible

 

[Ghostbone]

Smashville is occasionally like that, battlefield's ledges are also pretty janky.
But overall the stages are consistent, which is why people prefer to play on them.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Smashville is occasionally like that, battlefield's ledges are also pretty janky.
But overall the stages are consistent, which is why people prefer to play on them.

...What makes Smashville more consistent than, say, Wuhu Island?

 

[MajorMajora]

...What makes Smashville more consistent than, say, Wuhu Island?

Well, if we're talking literally, the Wuhu island order of transformations isn't entirely consistent and has iterations.

But yeah Smashville has some crazy things happen.

 

[Zanarkan]

Hi all, upstate NY smasher here! I have participated in a few Melee tournaments locally (when my area still had a scene) and I have watched streams of several Smash 4 wii u tournaments but haven't been able to figure out what they are using for screens for this game at tournaments? The reason I am asking is because I plan on traveling in a few months to some far off tournaments for smash 4 when my family and I are on vacation. I want to start training right away and I want to make my practice environment as close as possible to a usual tournament setup.

Any of you regular smash 4 tournament goers should be able to answer this fairly quickly, Thanks!

 

[Raijinken]

A low-lag gaming monitor/TV will work just fine. I know there are some exceptionally popular ones, but their exact model numbers escape me at the moment.

 

[Zanarkan]

I figured as much, I was more concerned about size, right now I'm playing on a 55" TV and I assume they use smaller ones at events lol

 

[Objekshin]

Usually anywhere from 17" monitors to 40" TVs (although it rarely gets that big) compatible with HDMI. Most people like HDMI due to the better quality of image. I prefer playing on screens bigger than 24".

 

[Zanarkan]

Alright thanks guys, good to know it's nothing super specific, I'll see what I can get for deals!

 

[Raijinken]

Alright thanks guys, good to know it's nothing super specific, I'll see what I can get for deals!

Essentially, just keep an eye on the display lag, and whether the screen has menu options like a Gaming Mode. A quick Google search should give you some solid reviews and recommendations as well.

 

[Pinnacle-eSport]

3 stock 8 minute is starting to pick up in popularity and I love to see that the game is becoming fast evnough to handle this format

 

[ぱみゅ]

Except for a good chunk of matchups that aren't any faster, like those involving Rosalina, Pacman, Sonic, Villager, WFT, and a handful of others.

 

[DanGR]

I've noticed a positive correlation between my skill with Rosalina and game length. It's not just not getting faster. It's getting slower. :|

 

[dav3yb]

so a quick question about stage selection as well as character selection. are stages usually selected before characters? or is it something like, first round follow the game sequence, following rounds stage then characters?

 

[Ansou]

so a quick question about stage selection as well as character selection. are stages usually selected before characters? or is it something like, first round follow the game sequence, following rounds stage then characters?

Usually it's:

Game 1:

1. Players select characters
2. Players strike stages

All other games:

1. Winner bans stages
2. Loser selects a stage
3. Winner selects a character
4. Loser selects a character

 

[Alphicans]

Anyone got any bright ideas to stop 2 stock from becoming the standard?

 

[Ansou]

Anyone got any bright ideas to stop 2 stock from becoming the standard?

I guess that would be to magically get a lot of viewers for streams that actually use 3 stocks.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Anyone got any bright ideas to stop 2 stock from becoming the standard?

Ban campy characters.
But in all seriousness, the game is getting faster overall and multiple top players including ZeRo are pro 3stock, so I can see it happening.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Anyone got any bright ideas to stop 2 stock from becoming the standard?

have 2 stocks for the first rounds/pools, make it 3 stocks for later rounds.

 

[dav3yb]

have 2 stocks for the first rounds/pools, make it 3 stocks for later rounds.

We'll be doing this for a tournament coming up. Pools will be 2s6m, any bracket play will be 3s8m.

 

[Jams.]

Anyone got any bright ideas to stop 2 stock from becoming the standard?

Poll your local community and count on 3 stock being preferred by a wide margin.

 

[Thinkaman]

The biggest obstacle with 3 stocks has always been widespread misinformation about how much extra time 3-stocks requires.

It tends to be around 80 additional seconds per game, worst case 120. If this seems like a lot, you have to understand just how little tourney time is actually spent playing games.

At 50% efficiency (which is pretty ordinary), this worst-case would only be a 16.67% increase in event length. The average increase you should actually expect is a bit less.

Overlooked though, is that 3-stock games yield more consistent results and go to game 3 less often. (Or game 4/5) This is very difficult to measure, but it's just obviously the case. Every extra game prevented is anywhere from ~200-400 seconds saved, using 2-stock standards. Even one or two of these can make up for the additional time needed for multiple rounds of that extra stock. And if the extra consistency prevents a GF bracket reset...

It's important for TOs to have a firm understanding of how their policies affect event length. 3 stock tourneys take longer, but the difference is far, far smaller than the +50% length some people might automatically assume.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Overlooked though, is that 3-stock games yield more consistent results and go to game 3 less often. (Or game 4/5) This is very difficult to measure, but it's just obviously the case. Every extra game prevented is anywhere from ~200-400 seconds saved, using 2-stock standards. Even one or two of these can make up for the additional time needed for multiple rounds of that extra stock. And if the extra consistency prevents a GF bracket reset...

I'm interested in a source or explanation for this statement, I've never heard it before.

 

[dav3yb]

So i've got rules up for a tournament im helping with coming up in October, and if anyone wouldn't mind giving any critique of it, i'd appreciate it.

http://www.mediafire.com/view/ln81kdln8m3u7uu/SD2rules.pdf

some things might be a bit long-winded, but we're still a growing scene, and I want things to be as clear as possible for people who might not be as familiar with tournaments.

there also might be some repetitive stuff that could be taken out, but these were also built on some other rules from an older tournament, so the additions that cover something that was already there might not have been removed for the updated wordings.

 

[Ansou]

So i've got rules up for a tournament im helping with coming up in October, and if anyone wouldn't mind giving any critique of it, i'd appreciate it.

http://www.mediafire.com/view/ln81kdln8m3u7uu/SD2rules.pdf

some things might be a bit long-winded, but we're still a growing scene, and I want things to be as clear as possible for people who might not be as familiar with tournaments.

there also might be some repetitive stuff that could be taken out, but these were also built on some other rules from an older tournament, so the additions that cover something that was already there might not have been removed for the updated wordings.

The rules claim that all characters are legal and that Custom Fighters and Mii Fighters are off. That is contradictory to itself.

 

[dav3yb]

The rules claim that all characters are legal and that Custom Fighters and Mii Fighters are off. That is contradictory to itself.

I get that point about mii fighters, but customs set to off is more so a setting than a legal character.

I'll try and see if there is a better way to word it.

 

[Ansou]

I get that point about mii fighters, but customs set to off is more so a setting than a legal character.

I'll try and see if there is a better way to word it.

Any specific reasons why you decided to ban customs and Mii Fighters?

 

[dav3yb]

Any specific reasons why you decided to ban customs and Mii Fighters?

because for now, we're just running customs off.

I wanted to see first hand how letting people make or upload sets on the fly would work, but didn't get a chance to since the place we used to play at closed down. We've done customs where we just use the CMP, but i feel for customs to really be fully utilized we need to allow people to make whatever they want. no other real reason than logistics for now, even though i generally do like customs.

 

[Pazx]

I'm interested in a source or explanation for this statement, I've never heard it before.

There's probably no hard data supporting it but it makes a lot of sense if you think about it. 2 stock = higher variance = more chance of the worse player taking a game or 2 and pushing out longer sets. Happened multiple times (think every 2-1 and 3-1 aside from losers R1) the last time I played with 2 stocks. With 3 stocks you're likely to see far more 2-0s and 3-0s.

because for now, we're just running customs off.

I wanted to see first hand how letting people make or upload sets on the fly would work, but didn't get a chance to since the place we used to play at closed down. We've done customs where we just use the CMP, but i feel for customs to really be fully utilized we need to allow people to make whatever they want. no other real reason than logistics for now, even though i generally do like customs.

Mii Fighters aren't customs and I encourage you to continue playing with customs off but allow Mii Fighters with no restrictions on their moveset.

 

[Ansou]

because for now, we're just running customs off.

I wanted to see first hand how letting people make or upload sets on the fly would work, but didn't get a chance to since the place we used to play at closed down. We've done customs where we just use the CMP, but i feel for customs to really be fully utilized we need to allow people to make whatever they want. no other real reason than logistics for now, even though i generally do like customs.

Having the CMP sets and letting people replace set 9 and 10 with their own sets work pretty well. Just saying.