Meta Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion

[ParanoidDrone]

What if someone selects random when customs are off, then they're enabled with the corner button? I'd assume they'd still get a random assortment of stuff but it may be worth confirming one way or another.

 

[thehard]

what about just closing your eyes and rolling the control stick across the CSS and selecting that way? OR doesn't hitting A outside of the CSS pick random for you?

 

[Jaxas]

So, how Random with Customs works:

• Even if you have no Equipment on your system, selecting random still gives characters equipment
• If you select Random and then turn on customs, your random character will be a 1111 no equipment character (assuming I haven't just been obscenely lucky with this, at least? Haven't tested it a ton, but I have done it before)

 

[BestTeaMaker]

I have to ask, are there enough people that choose Random to not just ban the Random button?

 

[Judo777]

I feel as though what was stated, being able to pick random with customs OFF then turn them on, solves the problem by itself. Anyone who is selecting a random character can't get bent out of shape over being restricted to 1111 sets.

 

[Jaxas]

So Mr. Wizard just confirmed FLSS for Evo this year, which is neat

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

So Mr. Wizard just confirmed FLSS for Evo this year, which is neat

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Now THIS will be very Interesting too see...

 

[thehard]

Looks like Miis are in too

Important:

• Order of events: Pick characters, then stage striking, then custom move selection.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Looks like Miis are in too

Important:

Also this:

• You may not play on a stage that is not on the available stages list. This will result in a double disqualification.

God damn yo.

 

[thehard]

Also this:

• You may not play on a stage that is not on the available stages list. This will result in a double disqualification.

God damn yo.

Damn, no gentleman'd Gamer GFs.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Damn, no gentleman'd Gamer GFs.

Wouldn't be surprised if it had something to do with the license tbh.

 

[Funen1]

Interesting. Not sure if having custom move selection after stage striking really makes a difference, but I can still see characters being selected first, to prevent excessive gamesmanship or something. Seeing custom specials and FLSS officially make it in is awesome though. Also, from what I can see, there's no bullet point saying anything about stage bans. Does that mean no bans at all then?

 

[smashbro29]

• Allowed controllers: WiiU Pro Controller & GameCube Controller.

If they're going to allow the cluster**** that is wireless controllers on WiiU why stop at just one option? I understand 3DS would take forever but what about Wii Remotes? Or Nunchuck? Or Classic Controller?

 

[LiteralGrill]

Wouldn't be surprised if it had something to do with the license tbh.

I confirmed no gentleman's picks would be allowed a long time ago actually when I interviewed Mr. Wizard. It seems like everyone missed so much I covered there and are asking already answered questions now... all dat work getting an exclusive interview for so little ;-;

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So Mr. Wizard just confirmed FLSS for Evo this year, which is neat

There was a problem fetching the tweet

And cue the people tweeting at Wizard complaining about their sets not making it in. I'm rapidly losing sympathy.

I confirmed no gentleman's picks would be allowed a long time ago actually when I interviewed Mr. Wizard. It seems like everyone missed so much I covered there and are asking already answered questions now... all dat work getting an exclusive interview for so little ;-;

I've also noticed that after AA published the latest edition of the custom project, a lot of people suddenly came out of the woodwork to complain their set wasn't included.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I confirmed no gentleman's picks would be allowed a long time ago actually when I interviewed Mr. Wizard. It seems like everyone missed so much I covered there and are asking already answered questions now... all dat work getting an exclusive interview for so little ;-;

Well, I was specifically talking about this rule here:

• You may not play on a stage that is not on the available stages list. This will result in a double disqualification.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Well, I was specifically talking about this rule here:

• You may not play on a stage that is not on the available stages list. This will result in a double disqualification.

This has to do with music licensing issues. Unless Im thinking of another large smash 4 tournament, Nintendo actually made a list of which stages could and could not be played on, due to problems with licensing the music. Apparently setting a tracks slider all the way down does not guarantee it wont play.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

This has to do with music licensing issues. Unless Im thinking of another large smash 4 tournament, Nintendo actually made a list of which stages could and could not be played on, due to problems with licensing the music. Apparently setting a tracks slider all the way down does not guarantee it wont play.

Apex was the first one, I think, or at least the first one where it became a commonly known issue.

Also it's really stupid that setting the slider to min doesn't actually set the chance to zero, if you ask me.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I don't even think the list was made by Nintendo.
I speculate they simply compromised with Apex's list and worked from there when contacting the EVO people.
My only hope is that another major TO decides and sticks to a list and Nintendo work their legalities around it. Though just agreeing to "music in the game is considered gameplay itself" would be WAAAAAAY better.

Funny enough, "music johns" is not the worst excuse I've heard to ban a stage.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Apex was the first one, I think, or at least the first one where it became a commonly known issue.

Also it's really stupid that setting the slider to min doesn't actually set the chance to zero, if you ask me.

It is, it is REALLY DUMB is what I would say if you were to ask me after I asked you. What's the point? Was it difficult to code or something?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It is, it is REALLY DUMB is what I would say if you were to ask me after I asked you. What's the point? Was it difficult to code or something?

It almost sounds like an oversight, where the slider sets the value of something and the code to check the odds uses <= instead of < or something.

Actually that makes sense. If min slider = 0 and they use "rand(seed) % somenumber <= value" to check if the music plays, then value = 0 could still result in a valid hit with 1/somenumber odds.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I don't even think the list was made by Nintendo.
I speculate they simply compromised with Apex's list and worked from there when contacting the EVO people.
My only hope is that another major TO decides and sticks to a list and Nintendo work their legalities around it. Though just agreeing to "music in the game is considered gameplay itself" would be WAAAAAAY better.

Funny enough, "music johns" is not the worst excuse I've heard to ban a stage.

Please tell every single person you know this so I never have to repeat myself ever again (especially since I already said it in this thread several, times.) YOU DON'T NEED TO SPECULATE! WE KNOW EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED!

Mr.Wizard: Without getting into specifics to violate the NDA, we were asked what stages we wanted to use for tournament play, and we gave a modified list of stages (based off of the APEX rules). From that list, we were told what was OK and what wasn't, and then locked it in via the license.

Me: Are we allowed to know the list of possible stages you gave to them to choose from, or would that violate the NDA?

Mr.Wizard: That would be a violation of the NDA.

Form our conversation as well, it seemed heavily implied they asked for some stages Apex DIDN'T have and it was Nintendo that said no.

Sorry for the snark here, it's just seriously frustrating to put all of this information out there, even within the very threads it's discussed in, to see people seemingly not noticing it exists. ;-;

 

[thehard]

It's not like there were other really popular stages though. Maybe he meant Omegas?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Please tell every single person you know this so I never have to repeat myself ever again (especially since I already said it in this thread several, times.) YOU DON'T NEED TO SPECULATE! WE KNOW EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED!



Form our conversation as well, it seemed heavily implied they asked for some stages Apex DIDN'T have and it was Nintendo that said no.

Sorry for the snark here, it's just seriously frustrating to put all of this information out there, even within the very threads it's discussed in, to see people seemingly not noticing it exists. ;-;

Mhmm. I don't think I've read that before. But it's basically what I said except I blame Apex instead of Nintendo

It's not like there were other really popular stages though. Maybe he meant Omegas?

If the issue is music, I'm guessing so.

 

[Hb2]

So, no stage bans after game 1? The order of events is still the same after game 1 (character selection first, then stage selection)? Seems weird to me, maybe he forgot to add those things.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Smashlabs released their "official" recommended ruleset for German tournaments.

Customs off, 3 starters, 8 counterpicks, 4 of which are considered "optional" stages.

Let us not speak of it further.

 

[Blobface]

Side note, when you pick random, it's clearly displayed, just like if you pick up with equipment. It's a question mark inside of a blank circle, so picking random would be blatantly obvious.

Besides, why would you pick random to begin with? You have no idea if the equipment will actually help you, and you could pick random and get Wizard's Assault instead of Wizard's Dropkick.

 

[John12346]

Even if you have no Equipment on your system, selecting random still gives characters equipment

I believe this is false? I've sold all of my equipment on my system and participated in random money matches and never ran into any equipment effects or stat changes on the characters.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Has music counters picking been discussed already?

Some players have prefence tracks. If someone cps me to say, Castle Seige (a stage I don't enjoy), would it be fair for me to choose the track that plays?

 

[RobinOnDrugs]

I like how they'll allow only 60 seconds in between games. It should prevent coaching from taking up most of the tournament.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I like how they'll allow only 60 seconds in between games. It should prevent coaching from taking up most of the tournament.

That's rhe only reasonable rule about it. No coaching is a dumb rule, but it's worse to allow it freely.
There is still a couple issues, namely logistics and the supervision it requires.

 

[[Deuce]]

Will anyone be willing to extract additional information supporting 3 stock matches?

From what I can tell, currently matches are running under 3 minutes on average, for 2 stock matches. Since the game is still in its infancy, I took the liberty of gathering a sample of data on older Melee games, primarily from 2005-2006 games older than that are harder to come by and/or run with significantly different rulesets (5 stock, items, etc)

Results:
4 stock
n=136 games
3m41s average game time
56s standard deviation
35 players sampled

Lurking variables- youtube only, survivorship (popular games), elite player skew

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1q_feqh_oScFZpgF-LZcygNK106YULnUglKDzNORcvO8/pubhtml

If we can ascertain that the average for a 3 stock SSB4 game can be roughly around 3:40ish I think we'd be pretty golden, especially considering that the advent of custom move legality seems to be lowering the average kill%?

 

[Tito Maas]

After competing in my first tournament this past Saturday, I'm of the belief that sets should be three stock, two of three. Two stocks seem way too quick.

 

[Pyr]

After competing in my first tournament this past Saturday, I'm of the belief that sets should be three stock, two of three. Two stocks seem way too quick.

Ya... Just going to say that a single tournament shouldn't be enough to set a belief. Speed is the point of a 2 stock match.

 

[Tito Maas]

Ya... Just going to say that a single tournament shouldn't be enough to set a belief. Speed is the point of a 2 stock match.

Time constraints for the event are less important to me than a proper opportunity to win for both players. Everyone who sets up and participates in Smash tournaments are aware that they are all day events.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Time constraints for the event are less important to me than a proper opportunity to win for both players. Everyone who sets up and participates in Smash tournaments are aware that they are all day events.

Some of us run Smash as one game in a line-up of half a dozen or more other fighting games, and sometimes we don't get "all day" to run it, either. It's a relevant concern.

 

[Tito Maas]

Some of us run Smash as one game in a line-up of half a dozen or more other fighting games, and sometimes we don't get "all day" to run it, either. It's a relevant concern.

So we're sacrificing competitive balance for faster tournaments. Makes me feel like three stocks are the way to go for someone who prioritizes the competition.

 

[Pyr]

So we're sacrificing competitive balance for faster tournaments. Makes me feel like three stocks are the way to go for someone who prioritizes the competition.

How does having 1 less stock affect competitive balance? Last I checked, the people who were winning with 3 stocks are still winning with 2.

Having only 1 tournament in this game under you makes you inexperienced as far as tournaments go for S4. Go to more so you can form an opinion not based in the land of feels.

 

[Piford]

How does having 1 less stock affect competitive balance? Last I checked, the people who were winning with 3 stocks are still winning with 2.

Having only 1 tournament in this game under you makes you inexperienced as far as tournaments go for S4. Go to more so you can form an opinion not based in the land of feels.

The extra stock is going to be more for people who are closer in skill. More stocks = more interactions between players. The better player should win more interactions. While the worse player is almost guaranteed to win some, he will likely not win a majority over the entire match. Think if the game was one stock, and I was using Game and Watch. If I land a 9, it isn't really showing that I'm the better player. Now think if we have 100 stocks. If i land a 9, I still need to take 99 more stocks to win, which I'd likely not land a 9 to get a kill on more than 9 or so more stocks.

 

[Pyr]

The extra stock is going to be more for people who are closer in skill. More stocks = more interactions between players. The better player should win more interactions. While the worse player is almost guaranteed to win some, he will likely not win a majority over the entire match. Think if the game was one stock, and I was using Game and Watch. If I land a 9, it isn't really showing that I'm the better player. Now think if we have 100 stocks. If i land a 9, I still need to take 99 more stocks to win, which I'd likely not land a 9 to get a kill on more than 9 or so more stocks.

As far as winning a set goes, it changes nothing.

In a 1 stock game, landing a 9 to win the match has the same odds as landing it on any other particular stock in a set of any other stock count. In a 1 stock best of 3, the G&W player would need to land it twice to win through the hammer alone. That means that they'd have to land 1 hammer on 66% of the stocks in the set in order to win outright. 2 stock games for a set? You'd need to land 3.9 9s for the same effect. 4 stock games? 7.92 hammers. 3 stock? 5.94.

Can you win with a hammer? Sure. Is it going to happen often? Na. You only get so many attempts in a set. Considering the odds of the hammer being a 9, it's not going to make an unskilled player win more then a skilled one, no matter how many stocks you have per game. With 2 stocks, the odds are even lesser because of the fact that, to take 66% of the stocks in the match, you'd need almost 4 hammers to do it.

From a math standpoint, the better player always wins the set. Even players trade sets still. Worse players always lose the set. Number of stocks does not change this and never will. A 2 stock game in a best of 3 will likely have the same result between 1 stock games and 99 stock games. Adding a stock to "test player skill" has a benefit that is minimal, while reducing it allows for bigger tournaments, less time taken on those tournaments, and general accessibility for TOs that don't normally do Smash because of the time constraints Smash has. The better overall choice is obvious.

Unless, of course, you have some sort of empirical evidence that shows that, between 2 and 3 stocks, stock count majorly alters who would win a tournament and that that effect is big enough to justify a smaller tournament size and number across the country.