Meta Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion

[ParanoidDrone]

What else acts that way?

Anyway, is it too late to push for a 6 minute timer at EVO?

Yes, the 5 minute timer is locked due to time concerns. 3 stocks is a possibility but I don't think any of us want 3s5m rules.

 

[thehard]

Yes, the 5 minute timer is locked due to time concerns. 3 stocks is a possibility but I don't think any of us want 3s5m rules.

Last I read there was a slim chance of Mr. Wizard bumping the timer back up to 6. Team Sp00ky is doing a 5 min. custom tournament and the king of all timeouts will be in attendance again (jk love ya @#HBC | Bunzy) so if things run to time constantly I think that could make a pretty good case for 6 minutes again.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Last I read there was a slim chance of Mr. Wizard bumping the timer back up to 6. Team Sp00ky is doing a 5 min. custom tournament and the king of all timeouts will be in attendance again (jk love ya @#HBC | Bunzy) so if things run to time constantly I think that could make a pretty good case for 6 minutes again.

I wouldn't hold my breath. Mr. Wizard has shown a remarkable willingness to listen when we talk about preferred rules, but for something on the scale of EVO, he simply has to consider the worst case, I.e. all matches going to time. And even an extra minute there will result in probably a couple of hours of extra time.

Not trying to argue for or against 2s5m, just explaining his likely viewpoint.

 

[thehard]

I understand his point of view, and I sympathize, but it is a flawed and maybe misinformed one.

There's been 3 timeouts so far and I don't remember any last week. One wasn't even a campy MU. It was Sheik vs. Kirby. The commentators thought the time limit was too short, the chat was pissed, and it's like...this isn't good.

EVO can risk an extra minute on the timer.

So there's been about 5 or 6 timeouts on-stream at this 5 minute tournament as opposed to 0 timeouts at last week's 6 minute. There's also been far more games that fell near the 1 minute mark.

 

[thehard]

Not to double post but this is important enough:

.@theharddd I'm most likely switching back to 6 min at ceo, this thread is good to know about. Does that extra minute really stop timeouts?

— Alex Jebailey (@Jebailey) March 16, 2015

See? Speaking up works. I'm only one man, people.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Question. When increasing the timer to 6 minutes, how many games end with less than 1 minute on the clock? Because those are games that yes, would have gone to time under a 5 minute ruleset, but also would have ended sooner under a 5 minute ruleset.

 

[thehard]

Occasionally slightly longer matches > timeouts

I think we already assessed that your event is running overtime because of out-of-game matters

But check this out: http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c...fail_because_of_the_time_limit_and_it/cpfxzhi

Only one normal match that went past 5 minutes (5:06); the Pacman vs. Rosalina matchup was literally a "worst case" scenario and may very well always end in timeout or near-timeout for all we know. It was also an unfamiliar matchup between two characters with excellent camp tools.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

So I had a thought. What if we used invisible timers? Someone has a phone off to the side counting down instead of on screen so that the competitors don't know for sure when the match may end. It could possibly keep the pace of the match consistent at least instead of immediately slowing down as the clock begins to wind down.

It's just that by the nature of Smash 4 defense plays a big role, and by having a present timer doesn't respect that aspect of Smash 4 by pressuring players to turtle up even more. It also makes the wait for the timer to run out more agonizing, like those days you were in school and you looked at the clock and classes seemed to go on forever. This still keeps timeouts as a viable strategy, but not as obtrusive of one.

And hey, 64 gets away with not having an onscreen timer right? Perhaps we could make it work too.

 

[Overswarm]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whAmI2HdBqw

someone send that video to them -_-;;

 

[LiteralGrill]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whAmI2HdBqw

someone send that video to them -_-;;

I already did a bit before I interviewed Mr. Wizard. It didn't seem to change his mind.

 

[Overswarm]

I already did a bit before I interviewed Mr. Wizard. It didn't seem to change his mind.

What were his comments?

It's either "I don't believe it" or "I don't care", the first is testable and provable and the second is confusing.

The only explanation that makes sense given the "I don't care" is that he did the math and said "we can fit in 100% timeouts if we do an X minute timer, so this will increase the time spent overall but guarantee the tournament finishes on time".


edit:

and if you're writing staff why don't you front page my videos

 

[ParanoidDrone]

The only explanation that makes sense given the "I don't care" is that he did the math and said "we can fit in 100% timeouts if we do an X minute timer, so this will increase the time spent overall but guarantee the tournament finishes on time".

I figured it was obvious that this was his reasoning.

 

[Overswarm]

I figured it was obvious that this was his reasoning.

It shouldn't be. Solution is to alter tournament presentation or have an entry cap; if we had 3,000 players we wouldn't want 1 minute timed matches and single elimination even if that would "fit".

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It shouldn't be. Solution is to alter tournament presentation or have an entry cap; if we had 3,000 players we wouldn't want 1 minute timed matches and single elimination even if that would "fit".

That's an entirely separate discussion I don't think I'm qualified to participate in.

 

[thehard]

AVERAGE MATCH TIME FROM SMASH ATTACK 4 CUSTOMS (6 SELECTED SETS, 20 MATCHES, 6 MINUTE TIMER): 2:48
Longest set: 5:25
Shortest set: 1:05
Will vs. JohnNumbers avg. time (3 games): 2:38

[Sets used:
Will vs. Dabuz
Will vs. Dabuz
Will vs. JohnNumbers
Dabuz vs. Robin
GTS vs. Angel Cortez
Will vs. Snakeee]


AVERAGE MATCH TIME FROM SMASH ATTACK 5 CUSTOMS (6 SELECTED SETS, 17 MATCHES, 5 MINUTE TIMER): 3:43
Longest sets: 5:00 and 5:00
Shortest set: 2:02
Will vs. JohnNumbers avg. time (3 games): 2:51

[Sets used:
Will vs. Dabuz
MikeKirby vs. Dabuz
MikeKirby vs. JohnNumbers
JohnNumbers vs. Vinnie
JohnNumbers vs. Dabuz
Will vs. JohnNumbers]


Matches past 4 minute mark (SA4): 3

Matches past 4 minute mark (SA5): 8

It's not perfect, but hard data~

 

[Pazx]

We should petition for Smash Attack 7 to run 2 stock 8 minutes and see how that affects the match length. I'm a huge advocate for that as I've seen too many matches go to time with 3/8 and 2/6 but I've yet to try it outside of friendlies.

 

[Pyr]

It's really weird how much of a psychological impact that 1 minute can make...

 

[Piford]

AVERAGE MATCH TIME FROM SMASH ATTACK 4 CUSTOMS (6 SELECTED SETS, 20 MATCHES, 6 MINUTE TIMER): 2:48
Longest set: 5:25
Shortest set: 1:05
Will vs. JohnNumbers avg. time (3 games): 2:38

[Sets used:
Will vs. Dabuz
Will vs. Dabuz
Will vs. JohnNumbers
Dabuz vs. Robin
GTS vs. Angel Cortez
Will vs. Snakeee]


AVERAGE MATCH TIME FROM SMASH ATTACK 5 CUSTOMS (6 SELECTED SETS, 17 MATCHES, 5 MINUTE TIMER): 3:43
Longest sets: 5:00 and 5:00
Shortest set: 2:02
Will vs. JohnNumbers avg. time (3 games): 2:51

[Sets used:
Will vs. Dabuz
MikeKirby vs. Dabuz
MikeKirby vs. JohnNumbers
JohnNumbers vs. Vinnie
JohnNumbers vs. Dabuz
Will vs. JohnNumbers]


Matches past 4 minute mark (SM4): 3

Matches past 4 minute mark (SM5): 8

It's not perfect, but hard data~

Was there any procedure in picking those matches? Like we're they all the top matches, or were they random from the ones streamed? While I do think that this data could be great at showing why 6 is better than 5, the picking method could significantly effect the validity of the data. Even if they were procedurally or randomly picked (as opposed to cherrypicking to make the data look nice) things like characters and player could matter a lot. Like at SA4, Will is present in 4 of the sets taken, while at SA5 JohnNumbers is present in 4. I'd be more interested in the few intersecting matches (Will vs Dabuz and Will vs JohnNumbers). Also if Will vs Dabuz's sets effect the data more since it's present 2 at SA4. And obviously with characters, Characters that tend to timeout like Rosalina are going to make matches seem longer compared to characters that tend to have fast matches like Captain Falcon.

 

[thehard]

Was there any procedure in picking those matches? Like we're they all the top matches, or were they random from the ones streamed? While I do think that this data could be great at showing why 6 is better than 5, the picking method could significantly effect the validity of the data. Even if they were procedurally or randomly picked (as opposed to cherrypicking to make the data look nice) things like characters and player could matter a lot. Like at SA4, Will is present in 4 of the sets taken, while at SA5 JohnNumbers is present in 4. I'd be more interested in the few intersecting matches (Will vs Dabuz and Will vs JohnNumbers). Also if Will vs Dabuz's sets effect the data more since it's present 2 at SA4. And obviously with characters, Characters that tend to timeout like Rosalina are going to make matches seem longer compared to characters that tend to have fast matches like Captain Falcon.

Yeah, I'm not really the best person for this sort of job, haha, but I wanted to try. Was hard to collect proper data with variable set length. As you noted I tried to do a couple of overlaps where I could. I do think the most important part of my post was the comparison of how many matches went past 4 minutes, and Will vs. JohnNumbers (the same characters and the same amount of matches). EVO wants to save time right? I think those bits of data are the strongest case for a 6 minute timer. Keitaro, ZeRo, and others have tweeted Mr. Wizard out about the timer but he doesn't seem to be budging, unfortunately. https://twitter.com/KeitaroTime/status/577398394701918208

 

[thehard]

Can we get red/blue as a standard for doubles colors for the colorblind?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Why does everyone try to cater the colorblind people?
I mean, integration is a thing, but is it really worth it to make an already long set of rules even longer and more complicated?

 

[thehard]

Is a small addendum like that such a big deal?

 

[Pyr]

Is a small addendum like that such a big deal?

It's... Really not. And it's basically standard to take into consideration the 8.5% of the population who are colorblind these days. It requires so little work for a decent gain. Adding "use these colors" to a doubles match is something that no one worth their salt will complain about.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Why does everyone try to cater the colorblind people?
I mean, integration is a thing, but is it really worth it to make an already long set of rules even longer and more complicated?

Because it costs nothing, is trivially easy, and "making it longer and more complicated" is a bit of an overstatement. Honestly, this just seems a little callous. There are people who are colorblind. Demanding that certain colors be used to cater to them is not a big deal.

 

[Hippieslayer]

color blindness is pretty common lol

 

[LiteralGrill]

So KTAR and a customs on Villager seriously has people already talking about a ledge grab limit for Smash 4 now :|

People wanted customs on, gotta take everything that comes with having them on in my opinion.

 

[thehard]

I understand the necessity of LGLs in past games (because the ledge mechanics were poorly designed) but you can't plank in 4... in Nairo vs. ADHD, once Nairo got in he was able to trump -> bair Villager every time. Too early for that shiz

 

[ぱみゅ]

I think I overreacted there about the colorblind people.
I just meant there is no need to add a written rule about it.

 

[smashbro29]

What do you guys think is a good stage list? I had a pretty diverse one but I'm getting some pretty convincing reasons to cut a lot of it.

 

[Pazx]

What do you guys think is a good stage list? I had a pretty diverse one but I'm getting some pretty convincing reasons to cut a lot of it.

Do not under any circumstances cut good stages from your stage list.

We had someone ask the same question a few hours ago here, here is my stage list:

Spoiler

Battlefield
Smashville
Town and City
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Halberd
Skyloft
Wuhu Island
Castle Siege
Duck Hunt
Kongo Jungle
Delfino Plaza
Pokemon Stadium 2 (I played on this in my last tournament, no complaints at all)

"I'm also a fan of Norfair but I'm not entirely sure you'd have much luck convincing your scene (or my scene) to start using it competitively. The next stages I'd consider adding are Norfair, Woolly World, Mario Circuit (although I personally really dislike the latter and I don't think competitive scenes will have a warm reception for any of them. That said, they are valid competitive stages, just very disliked)."

 

[smashbro29]

Do not under any circumstances cut good stages from your stage list.

We had someone ask the same question a few hours ago here, here is my stage list:

Spoiler

Battlefield
Smashville
Town and City
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Halberd
Skyloft
Wuhu Island
Castle Siege
Duck Hunt
Kongo Jungle
Delfino Plaza
Pokemon Stadium 2 (I played on this in my last tournament, no complaints at all)

"I'm also a fan of Norfair but I'm not entirely sure you'd have much luck convincing your scene (or my scene) to start using it competitively. The next stages I'd consider adding are Norfair, Woolly World, Mario Circuit (although I personally really dislike the latter and I don't think competitive scenes will have a warm reception for any of them. That said, they are valid competitive stages, just very disliked)."

I'm more asking what good stages are. My list was:

Spoiler

Neutral:
Battlefield
Final Destination/Ω
Smashville

Ω rule: If FD is agreed upon you can ask your opponent to choose an omega, your opponent has the right to deny you and if no omega is agreed on you just go to FD.

Counter Picks:
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Duck Hunt
Halberd
Kongo Jungle 64
Lylat Cruise
Orbital Gate Assault
Pokemon Stadium 2
Skyloft
Town & City
Wuhu Island

 

[ぱみゅ]

Why did you use the Omega (Ω) symbol upside down?

Orbital Gate Assault is iffy. So is Kongo Jungle, but it's slightly more acceptable.


Also, why do you have only 3 starters and like a million CP's? It0s better not to have a Starter/CP distinction at all

 

[Pazx]

I'm more asking what good stages are. My list was:

Spoiler

Neutral:
Battlefield
Final Destination/Ʊ
Smashville

Ʊ rule: If FD is agreed upon you can ask your opponent to choose an omega, your opponent has the right to deny you and if no omega is agreed on you just go to FD.

Counter Picks:
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Duck Hunt
Halberd
Kongo Jungle 64
Lylat Cruise
Orbital Gate Assault
Pokemon Stadium 2
Skyloft
Town & City
Wuhu Island

Not bad, for the record they're known as "Starters" not "Neutrals" and having 3 starters is typically a bad idea. 5, 9 or 13 are the best options. I really hate Orbital Gate Assault but that's because I'm whiny, the rest of your list is good.

 

[smashbro29]

Why did you use the Omega (Ω) symbol upside down?

Orbital Gate Assault is iffy. So is Kongo Jungle, but it's slightly more acceptable.

Also, why do you have only 3 starters and like a million CP's? It0s better not to have a Starter/CP distinction at all

Ok, why are those 2 iffy?

I wanted to have Town and City Neutral but couldn't find a 5th.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Discussion about stages is being held here: http://smashboards.com/threads/stage-analysis-discussion-thread.367708/page-98

But basically, Orbital Gate Assault pretty much forces players to get hit to keep the cycle (granted, it doesn't deal damage and won't kill (iirc), but it's considered highly obtrusive.
Kongo Jungle 64 has an issue with barrels, in which certain characters can abuse them and potentially circle camp the stage over and over.

Both need a lot of testing, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying your list is bad or those stages deserve to be banned, they're just... iffy.

 

[Pazx]

Ok, why are those 2 iffy?

I wanted to have Town and City Neutral but couldn't find a 5th.

Lylat is a good starter candidate, you could also bump it up to 9 and add 4 of the following: Duck Hunt, Skyloft, Delfino, Wuhu, Castle Siege, KJ64, Halberd (depends how your area feels about hazards). That said, T&C is arguably a better starter stage than Final Destination, so it should be considered a starter in all stage lists.

KJ64's main "issue" is that it might promote runaway play, but it has yet to be seen.

 

[smashbro29]

Lylat is a good starter candidate, you could also bump it up to 9 and add 4 of the following: Duck Hunt, Skyloft, Delfino, Wuhu, Castle Siege, KJ64, Halberd (depends how your area feels about hazards). That said, T&C is arguably a better starter stage than Final Destination, so it should be considered a starter in all stage lists.

KJ64's main "issue" is that it might promote runaway play, but it has yet to be seen.

Neutral, starter, potato chip, whatever the hell you wanna call it.

9 starters is madness. Striking would be a huge chore. 5 is fine. Lylat seems like the best idea but I'm not sure.

Discussion about stages is being held here: http://smashboards.com/threads/stage-analysis-discussion-thread.367708/page-98

But basically, Orbital Gate Assault pretty much forces players to get hit to keep the cycle (granted, it doesn't deal damage and won't kill (iirc), but it's considered highly obtrusive.
Kongo Jungle 64 has an issue with barrels, in which certain characters can abuse them and potentially circle camp the stage over and over.

Both need a lot of testing, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying your list is bad or those stages deserve to be banned, they're just... iffy.

Yeah, I'll go there in a sec but first I'd say how would we test? We know everything about the stages.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Neutral, starter, potato chip, whatever the hell you wanna call it.

9 starters is madness. Striking would be a huge chore. 5 is fine. Lylat seems like the best idea but I'm not sure.


Yeah, I'll go there in a sec but first I'd say how would we test? We know everything about the stages.

I'd say you test by having matches on the stages and see if anyone can abuse it to the point where it trivializes the actual competition.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Neutral, starter, potato chip, whatever the hell you wanna call it.

9 starters is madness. Striking would be a huge chore.

Munich has 13 and we do just fine. It's a lot easier than you might think, and once your player base gets used to it, it goes really fast. The main issue with so few starters is that it throws a huge advantage to characters who favor Flat+Plat stages with no changes or transitions.

 

[Jaxas]

9 starters is madness. Striking would be a huge chore. 5 is fine. Lylat seems like the best idea but I'm not sure.

We run 13 starters here, and it's runs perfectly fine. 9 works just as well, you just strike from the random stage select menu (just like in every other game...)