Competitive Mii Fighter: How this character should be allowed(Custom: Off)

[19_]

This is a terrible idea. What if someone from other cities want to participate but play other sets?
Free Mii is the only good solution tbh.

Emphasis on short term. Stubborn TOs won't realize that issue till it actually happens. Maybe something will come of it if said incident occurs enough.
The progress might might be worth it, but we won't know until we try.

 

[Respect38]

Why allow a Custom™ character in a "customs : off" meta tho ? Why not allow custom stages while we're at it ?

Why not? It seems that once one realizes that Miis can use their customs even when "customs: off" [by nature, or else Nintendo would have no doubt patched it by now] that it seems like there would have to be a good argument as to why Miis using their customs is competitively problematic rather than the Mii side having the burden of proof.

 

[allshort17]

So here my take on why miis legal on 1111 is the most popular, but maybe not the most correct choice today.

First, we have to assess why we ban or regulate content in games in the first place. There are three reasons. Something is gamebreaking, degenerate, or a logistical issue. For gamebreaking content, these are things that literally break the rules of the game and either give a player an extreme advantage or render the game in an unplayable state. Game freezing glitches or god-mode characters are an example of this. Degenerate content are things that reduce the meta-game into only a select few viable options. Although degenerate content may not be technically broken, it is usually agreed that the health of the competitive scene would be better off without this content. An example of degenerate content would be how walk-offs promote walk-off camping. Characters can be gamebreaking or degenerate as well, but can be harder to distinguish between the two. Perfect examples are Akuma and O.Sagat in Street Fighter 2. Akuma is banned because he is gamebreaking. He can consistent unblockable set-ups that no character can beat, which breaks a fundamental rule of the game. On the other hand, O.Sagat is sometimes banned because he is degenerate. While not Akuma levels of broken, when legal, the game usually revolves around O.Sagat and the characters that can keep up with O.Sagat, severely limiting the viable character roster. It is important to note that although a character may be degenerate, the game as a whole may not. Lastly, logistics are the last reason bans or regulation may be in place. Time is usually the most prominent issue, which is why we have a timer on matches. Other logistically issues include set-up issues, physical space issues, and conflicts with other rules.

Now that it has been explained why bans and regulations are set in place, let's see if Mii and their movesets present any issues. Since the legality of Mii of a character and what movesets should they use are two different arguments I will look at each separately.

Should Miis be legal?
*Gamebreaking content?: Miis present no glitches or exploits that would render the game unplayable or give an extreme advantage to a player, so this is not a concern.
*Degenerate content?: Hardly. Currently, Miis set to 1111 have nearly negligible impact on the meta-game. Even with all moves legal, the only character that comes close to representing a game-defining strategy is Mii Brawler. Even then, it's hard to argue that he'll dominate the meta-game over characters like Shiek, ZSS, Rosalina, Cloud, and Ryu.
*Logistical issues?: It has been proven that creating guest Miis consumes little time, so time issues can be ruled out. Outside of time concerns, Miis represent no other logistical issues.

Looking at the guidelines for bans, there is no strong reason why Miis as a whole should be banned. However, if Miis are legal, their movesets provide different problems.

Should Miis be able to use all their moves?
*Gamebreaking content?: Still none.
*Degenerate content?: Again, even though Mii Brawler would come the closest to this, it has still not been proven that he would lead to a Mii Brawler-centric meta.
*Logistically issues?: The additional time in picking a moveset for Miis is negligible. It may be a bit more time consuming to search for a loadout after multiple have been created, but this problem can be circumvented by pre-making popular loadouts. The bigger logistic issue, and why Miis have been discussed in legality debates, his the question of whether or not their unique moves can be considered customs, which would be a conflict in rule since customs for other characters are banned.

-"Miis were designed with these moves in mind, thus they should be legal": This is an argument for why Miis alternate moves may be balanced, but not why they should not be considered customs or why they should be legal regardless of being customs. There are plenty of balanced and useful customs, but as of now customs are banned. So if you believe that Miis alternate moves are balanced customs and should be legal, you should be arguing why all customs are banned.

-"Miis' alternate moves can be selected without turning on customs, thus they are not customs and should be legal": This is false because Miis' alternate moves are functionally identical to customs. They all are alternate moves a character can choose that change the properties of the character's special attacks. Just because the game does not explicitly label them as customs, does not mean they are not customs in practice.

-"It's arbitrary to designate 1111 as the default loadout. Miis should be given access to their best loadout, if not access to all their moves": For Miis to be legal without alternate movesets, one loadout hasto designated as default. 1111 is just the easiest one to justify. It is true that it is arbitrary that 1111 is chosen as the default, but it is equally as arbitrary that Mii should be given access to their best loadout. First, the community has to decide what the best single loadout, which would cause division between different TOs and community leaders. Second, it is arbitrary to give only Miis access to their best set of customs and not all the other characters. If Miis should be give access to all their moves instead, again it would be arbitrary to give this privilege only to Miis and then we're debating whether or not customs should be legal.

So, the reason why 1111 Miis are the default Mii today is because the community as a whole would rather preserve the integrate of its custom-ban rather than re-analyze whether customs should be legal or not. Legalizing customs would present large logistical issues due to ensuring all set-ups have all the customs unlocked and may create a degenerate meta-game, which are valid concerns. This is not to be pro or anti-customs. However, if you believe Miis should be legal with their alternate moves, you have to judge whether customs as a whole should be legal again or customs should stay banned and Miis take a hit because of it.

 

[wizrad]

Why allow a Custom™ character in a "customs : off" meta tho ? Why not allow custom stages while we're at it ?

Because that's the game's ruling. And no, this isn't like items, there's no way to turn Miis off. You can not make them, but that's the same as not unlocking a character.

Because the game says that Miis are legal, you must tell us why Miis should be restricted, and not the other way around.

 

[19_]

Listen. Mii players. Make a single moveset. With your community. We can use that one. I'll push for you super hard if you do that.

— ESAM (@imESAM) February 25, 2016

I know it is lame but why not right.

 

[T4ylor]

I'd much rather see them completely banned than limited to a single moveset. Either default size and any moves or that.

 

[teluoborg]

Listen. Mii players. Make a single moveset. With your community. We can use that one. I'll push for you super hard if you do that.

— ESAM (@imESAM) February 25, 2016

I know it is lame but why not right.

Mii players are too entitled to compromise. They would rather have their character banned than not be able to play with their favorite moveset AND be able to switch from it during a set. The post above me is a perfect example, the legion of "1111 is an insult" posts is another.

Because that's the game's ruling. And no, this isn't like items, there's no way to turn Miis off. You can not make them, but that's the same as not unlocking a character.

Because the game says that Miis are legal, you must tell us why Miis should be restricted, and not the other way around.

I know that's just an argument about semantics and that you don't really care about "the game's ruling" but even there you're wrong.
Mii fighters do not exist in the game by default. Just like custom stages there is a tool to make them but they have to be created for their character slot to appear in the select screen (and btw doing so screws the character repartition).
And as far as I know it has never been about banning or allowing Miis, but only about the community trying to find a compromise and the Mii players refusing any and all discussion outside of their echo chamber.

 

[san.]

Mii players are too entitled to compromise. They would rather have their character banned than not be able to play with their favorite moveset AND be able to switch from it during a set. The post above me is a perfect example, the legion of "1111 is an insult" posts is another.

False. Back then, Mii players were struggling to get anything other than 1111 rules allowed. Settling on a single set wasn't too appropriate back then, either, because a single patch would likely switch everything around. Mii players are generally aware of what the most popular sets are.

No one likes sweeping, trivializing statements either.

I know that's just an argument about semantics and that you don't really care about "the game's ruling" but even there you're wrong.
Mii fighters do not exist in the game by default. Just like custom stages there is a tool to make them but they have to be created for their character slot to appear in the select screen (and btw doing so screws the character repartition).
And as far as I know it has never been about banning or allowing Miis, but only about the community trying to find a compromise and the Mii players refusing any and all discussion outside of their echo chamber.

They are in the game by default. I can go online and play a mii player despite never creating a mii. Same logic applies for all DLC characters, unless they don't exist until you throw money at your screen. You're really reaching there.

Compromises also aren't too appealing when it's like 30:70 odds against you, but when you have no choice...?

 

[wizrad]

I would say something, but @San has it covered. Also, why should we be compromising when we disagree? It's not about what we want, it's about what we think is right.

Also, you never game me a reason that is actually sound (:

And you say I won't have a discussion, when I'm trying to have a civilized discussion with you right now, and you're trying to fling insulting generalizations at me because I disagreed with you (:

Mii players are too entitled to compromise. They would rather have their character banned than not be able to play with their favorite moveset AND be able to switch from it during a set. The post above me is a perfect example, the legion of "1111 is an insult" posts is another.

I know that's just an argument about semantics and that you don't really care about "the game's ruling" but even there you're wrong.
Mii fighters do not exist in the game by default. Just like custom stages there is a tool to make them but they have to be created for their character slot to appear in the select screen (and btw doing so screws the character repartition).
And as far as I know it has never been about banning or allowing Miis, but only about the community trying to find a compromise and the Mii players refusing any and all discussion outside of their echo chamber.

 

[Yikarur]

(and btw doing so fixes the character repartition).

Fixed for you

 

[T4ylor]

Mii players are too entitled to compromise. They would rather have their character banned than not be able to play with their favorite moveset AND be able to switch from it during a set. The post above me is a perfect example, the legion of "1111 is an insult" posts is another.

Except that I'm not a Mii player nor will I ever be in the future. It's just better to ban them entirely than to restrict them to 1111 and give them false hope that one day they can use their character the way they believe should be allowed in a competitive setting. Because, let's face it, who's using a 1111 Mii fighter?

 

[GeneralLedge]

Mii players are too entitled to compromise.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth. I see you know a lot about me as a contributor, and I appreciate your understanding.

But I wanted to say, I've tried very hard to take the bullet and try to sway as many players in the Mii community in favor of a singular moveset, or even so far as to just fold and learn 1111. In fact, whether coincidentally or through my conversations in the Mii group, quite a few players are trying to learn how to play as 1111 as a part of the lop-sided "we lose" compromise.

There are a few players in our community who find 1111 legitimately fun to play, and are trying to push the meta forward with this niche and lop-sided 'characters'. Whether I had a hand in this personally or not holds however much value you'd like to warrant it.

I've also said "screw it, let's deal with it" in the chat since the EVO ruling to appeal to ESAM and seek at least a little representation to the positive light, however underhanded it may be. Presently, people have begun to make a frantic decision on a singular moveset since I made this blunt statement to a lot of them.

Whether we come to a conclusion or not is yet to be seen, but a lot of us almost certainly don't appreciate the light many contributors in the community paint us with. Are we entitled because we love our characters? I'll leave that question for you to inevitably ignore.


We're doing as you ask. I don't endorse spreading lies to shame us.

 

[CT Chia]

Everyone who wants to see Miis unrestricted at Evo should sign this petition and share it with their friends!

https://www.change.org/p/free-miis-at-evo-2016

 

[teluoborg]

False. Back then, Mii players were struggling to get anything other than 1111 rules allowed. Settling on a single set wasn't too appropriate back then, either, because a single patch would likely switch everything around. Mii players are generally aware of what the most popular sets are.

No one likes sweeping, trivializing statements either.

They are in the game by default. I can go online and play a mii player despite never creating a mii. Same logic applies for all DLC characters, unless they don't exist until you throw money at your screen. You're really reaching there.

Compromises also aren't too appealing when it's like 30:70 odds against you, but when you have no choice...?

You can also go online and have to play with items even though you have them turned to off. My point is that using "it's (/not) meant to be like that in the game" as an argument is completely irrelevant to the debate and only leads to sterile discussions.
An analogy would be in the 2/3 stocks debate using the argument "when you turn the game mode to stocks it is on 3 by default therefore we should play with 3 stocks".

And it's true that people have been fighting for Mii rights since the beginning of the game, but if you compare it to customs there is no Mii equivalent to AAmpharos' initiative.
What he did was propose a community approved, tournament ready set for TOs that would want to implement customs in their ruleset.
The same has yet to be proposed by anyone in the pro Mii movement. And no, "let people do their own moveset however they want" does not appeal to TOs.
This stands for wizrad too. It's been 6 months with no changes in the situation, so at this point I don't think it's about agreeing or disagreeing but rather the way of doing things. Complaining for 6 months hasn't changed a thing, and the only major tournament with Mii completely legal was EVO, where they were included in AAmpharos' custom project. If you think repeating the same modus operanti for will lead to different results then sure go ahead and keep your method.

Fixed for you

Humm
4 lines of 14 characters
vs
2 lines of 12 and 3 lines of 11 characters

Yeah no thanks.

Except that I'm not a Mii player nor will I ever be in the future. It's just better to ban them entirely than to restrict them to 1111 and give them false hope that one day they can use their character the way they believe should be allowed in a competitive setting. Because, let's face it, who's using a 1111 Mii fighter?

I don't know, who uses Ganon ? Who uses Palutena ? Who uses Lucina ? What's the viability of a character to do with anything ? Oh wait : entitlement.
We all know that 1111, custom and small Miis are different character like clones and semi clones. It's obvious people like winning and will prefer to use the most viable of all the variations. I don't think anyone will ever argue against that.

 

[san.]

You can also go online and have to play with items even though you have them turned to off. My point is that using "it's (/not) meant to be like that in the game" as an argument is completely irrelevant to the debate and only leads to sterile discussions.
An analogy would be in the 2/3 stocks debate using the argument "when you turn the game mode to stocks it is on 3 by default therefore we should play with 3 stocks".

You stated "Mii fighters do not exist in the game by default" then proceeded to make weak arguments, comparing them to custom stages and items. You can turn off items and it's much tougher to regulate custom stages (but likely can be done in small scenes). You're not leading to any meaningful discussion going down this road.

And it's true that people have been fighting for Mii rights since the beginning of the game, but if you compare it to customs there is no Mii equivalent to AAmpharos' initiative.
What he did was propose a community approved, tournament ready set for TOs that would want to implement customs in their ruleset.
The same has yet to be proposed by anyone in the pro Mii movement. And no, "let people do their own moveset however they want" does not appeal to TOs.
This stands for wizrad too. It's been 6 months with no changes in the situation, so at this point I don't think it's about agreeing or disagreeing but rather the way of doing things. Complaining for 6 months hasn't changed a thing, and the only major tournament with Mii completely legal was EVO, where they were included in AAmpharos' custom project. If you think repeating the same modus operanti for will lead to different results then sure go ahead and keep your method.

There is no equivalent to AAmpharos' initiative since Miis are included in that initiative. You can click on the link and see any of the relevant specials they have. Problem with making a list 6 months back was that a patch could switch around all the relevant specials. For instance, Gunner's missile was reduced by 10 frames of lag, while Swordifghter's slash launcher also received lag reductions. There were too many patches to force people to use a set that early.

It's also useless to set up all the systems with specials when you can easily make one from scratch in 30 seconds to a minute. The TOs against this just aren't knowledgeable of that fact. It takes more time to set up my controls.

I don't know, who uses Ganon ? Who uses Palutena ? Who uses Lucina ? What's the viability of a character to do with anything ? Oh wait : entitlement.
We all know that 1111, custom and small Miis are different character like clones and semi clones. It's obvious people like winning and will prefer to use the most viable of all the variations. I don't think anyone will ever argue against that.

That's true, it's not about viability at all, but what the game allows us to do; however, other players pull the "it's not fair" card concerning multiple specials, bringing viability into the mix. If Miis couldn't use their specials without turning on customs, even if they were useless, I wouldn't be behind it. There are concrete reasons for why they were programmed to work that way.

 

[teluoborg]

You stated "Mii fighters do not exist in the game by default" then proceeded to make weak arguments, comparing them to custom stages and items. You can turn off items and it's much tougher to regulate custom stages (but likely can be done in small scenes). You're not leading to any meaningful discussion going down this road.

But that is my point entirely : those arguments make no sense and hold no value.
Even my own first statement of "Miis do not exist in the game by default" is flawed and irrelevant. I was just responding to wizrad's own attempt to justify his views with those kind of arguments.

There is no equivalent to AAmpharos' initiative since Miis are included in that initiative. You can click on the link and see any of the relevant specials they have. Problem with making a list 6 months back was that a patch could switch around all the relevant specials. For instance, Gunner's missile was reduced by 10 frames of lag, while Swordifghter's slash launcher also received lag reductions. There were too many patches to force people to use a set that early.

That was then, and in that project the Miis were intimately linked to the use of customs. As long as you rely on this project people will relate miis with customs.

It's also useless to set up all the systems with specials when you can easily make one from scratch in 30 seconds to a minute. The TOs against this just aren't knowledgeable of that fact. It takes more time to set up my controls.

Every Brawler main has been repeating this here and in every forum and social media for the last 6 months. If ignorance was the main issue at some point then I'm pretty sure this isn't the case anymore.

That's true, it's not about viability at all, but what the game allows us to do; however, other players pull the "it's not fair" card concerning multiple specials, bringing viability into the mix. If Miis couldn't use their specials without turning on customs, even if they were useless, I wouldn't be behind it. There are concrete reasons for why they were programmed to work that way.

See the sentence in bold is the kind of bs I'm talking about in the beginning of my post.
What are those concrete reasons ?
That the game was made to be played that way ?
That it is Sakurai's will to have you set up your Mii moveset individually every time you have to play on a new wii u ?
That it is because of Sakurai's Holy Word that you guys should not come up as a community and decide on 1-3 defined movesets for each Mii fighter in order to make the TO's life easier ?

I don't have anything against Miis as characters but that's the kind of behaviour (to not say entitlement lmao) that makes me understand why TOs don't allow them.

 

[Yikarur]

How are TOs life hard in the first place if you create the Mii yourself?
It's much harder for a TO to collect the data to make a "best set" than just allowing them free.

 

[Thinkaman]

TBQH, there's no polite way to say this...

...but if 8 extra special options being added to a (crappy) character is too overwhelming for someone, competitive gaming probably isn't for them.

 

[Unknownkid]

See the sentence in bold is the kind of bs I'm talking about in the beginning of my post.
What are those concrete reasons ?
That the game was made to be played that way ?
That it is Sakurai's will to have you set up your Mii moveset individually every time you have to play on a new wii u ?
That it is because of Sakurai's Holy Word that you guys should not come up as a community and decide on 1-3 defined movesets for each Mii fighter in order to make the TO's life easier ?

Pardon my ignorance but can you explain how is any different from creating nametag and your unique controls on a new system? Heck, sometimes, that unique name with controls get delete and you have recreate it again.

 

[san.]

Pardon my ignorance but can you explain how is any different from creating nametag and your unique controls on a new system? Heck, sometimes, that unique name with controls get delete and you have recreate it again.

I created over 12 Miis and 40 sets. I'm familiar with how long it takes to create each and it's not much at all for both, perhaps even under a minute for both if you skip unneeded aspects.

But that is my point entirely : those arguments make no sense and hold no value.
Even my own first statement of "Miis do not exist in the game by default" is flawed and irrelevant. I was just responding to wizrad's own attempt to justify his views with those kind of arguments.

It's flawed because it's incorrect. The game allowing you to use Miis when customs are turned off is correct. Sounds like a strawman if you're trying to apply your weak argument to his. He originally replied to your odd comparison to custom stages and pretty much destroyed it.

That was then, and in that project the Miis were intimately linked to the use of customs. As long as you rely on this project people will relate miis with customs.

Not many mii players felt they were completely analogous to customs back then, either, but we gave them a list + the optimal size. You just made it sound like such a list never existed. I don't give a crap about customs and can adapt whether they're on or not. Fortunately, the game lets us turn them on or off.

Every Brawler main has been repeating this here and in every forum and social media for the last 6 months. If ignorance was the main issue at some point then I'm pretty sure this isn't the case anymore.

If the concern is time, that concern is unfounded. I do see that reason pointed out at times. Another (from what I read) is a perception of fairness, etc. Those kinds of things can also be debated.

See the sentence in bold is the kind of bs I'm talking about in the beginning of my post.
What are those concrete reasons ?
That the game was made to be played that way ?

Someone specifically coded in the ability for Miis to be chosen with specials intact. If you work in software, you know that every little thing gets documented and for a reason. I don't care why, but it must exist, and it likely wasn't Sakurai either. I can make assumptions or just accept that they can be used and deal with it.

That it is Sakurai's will to have you set up your Mii moveset individually every time you have to play on a new wii u ?
That it is because of Sakurai's Holy Word that you guys should not come up as a community and decide on 1-3 defined movesets for each Mii fighter in order to make the TO's life easier ?

I don't have anything against Miis as characters but that's the kind of behaviour (to not say entitlement lmao) that makes me understand why TOs don't allow them.

Seems like I set off a fuse here. You're starting to rant now. We already know the best sets and players have been polled for what set they use. 23-30% for the most popular set on each, ~40 for the top 2. Doesn't sound good.

 

[Jams.]

san. how have your efforts to talk to players about Mii legality at tournaments gone? I feel like at this point discussion has gone around in circles for quite a while, and anyone invested in this issue knows all the arguments from both sides. People might feel differently if you talk to them in person though.

 

[san.]

san. how have your efforts to talk to players about Mii legality at tournaments gone? I feel like at this point discussion has gone around in circles for quite a while, and anyone invested in this issue knows all the arguments from both sides. People might feel differently if you talk to them in person though.

My local region has guest miis with specials. I avoided traveling to those that only had 1111 outside of Canadian tournaments and TBH5, though I admittedly never pressed the issue when I traveled. I did want to talk to a few players about it at TBH5 but wasn't able to find the time.

 

[wizrad]

teluoborg , I agree with you that, right now, some compromise needs to be made, but it just won't last. Take ESAM's single set compromise. Most people either want complete move freedom or 1111 only. Things won't stay in the middle for long because it just makes everyone unhappy. Still, many of us Mii mains support it for the moment because at least it's something, and that's the best we can get right now. A temporary compromise.

 

[GFD]

I'm mostly an outsider to the competitive Smash community, but I thought I'd drop my thoughts on this somewhere, since I haven't seen anyone else with exactly the same philosophy about this as me.

What makes Mii Fighters unique is that they are customizable in more ways than any other fighter. I don't just mean visually, either. They have an additional customizable aspect that impacts gameplay: their height/weight.
The implication of this is that Miis can have one customizable aspect legal in "customizations off" rulesets, and still gain another customizable aspect in "customizations on" rulesets. So, Miis gain only one aspect of customization in "customizations on" rulesets compared to "customizations off" rulesets, just like every other fighter.
If you ask me, the only question that can be asked about Miis is, which customizable aspect should be permitted in "customizations off" rulesets? The answer should be obvious.

An important point about this philosophy is that Palutena's customs are logically excluded from "customizations off" rulesets, as she doesn't have an additional customizable aspect like Miis do. Thus, she would not have one more customizable aspect in "customizations on" rulesets like every other fighter.

This philosophy could also be used to promote only 1111 Mii Fighters in "customizations off" rulesets, and only allow them one of their two customizable aspects in "customizations on" rulesets. This philosophy can't really be modified to prevent this by itself, but there are still other points that remain applicable. I won't go over all of them, but here are some of my thoughts.
You all know that the game allows both customizable aspects of Miis to be used even when customizations are turned off, so their customizable aspects are considered unique from other fighters. However, both of their customizable aspects don't logically need to be legal, similar to how "customizations on" rulesets do not legalize both customizable aspects for other fighters (custom specials and equipment), despite the game permitting them both when customizations are turned on.
Besides, it's undeniable that Miis are supposed to be customizable characters. It's their shtick, just like how other fighters have completely unique gameplay mechanics (egg shield, cargo throw, copy abilities, Pikmin, Bat Within, etc.). Their unique gameplay mechanics just necessitate a unique implementation that reaches outside of pure gameplay. Customization is where Miis draw their strength from, which is why they have one more customizable aspect than any other fighter.

(I could've sworn that, in a previous version of Smash 3DS, I tested it out and Miis with custom heights/weights acted like Guest Miis when customizations were turned off, but still had access to their customized special moves. I'm unable to confirm this, however.)

 

[wizrad]

(I could've sworn that, in a previous version of Smash 3DS, I tested it out and Miis with custom heights/weights acted like Guest Miis when customizations were turned off, but still had access to their customized special moves. I'm unable to confirm this, however.)

Nah. Tiny Miis are still faster with customs off.

 

[B-Black]

I agree with ESAM's choice, as the best moveset of each mii covers most of their MU against certain characters, with an optimal height/weight.
I understand that most of you doesn't like it because we are locked like '1111', but for me, it's a good thing to have at least a moveset that we will choose for the community.

 

[wizrad]

It makes us viable, yes, but this isn't about making the characters viable. It's about enforcing the basic idea that a suspect is innocent until proven guilty, which was never applied to Miis. All of a sudden and without warning, TOs forced Miis to 1111 after Evo and refused to listen or do anything to fix their rash decision. That's not how things are supposed to work in a competitive community. But maybe anyone from another game in the FGC is right and Smash isn't competitive. But that's only true if we make it non competitive through non competitive thinking.

 

[Yikarur]

I'm absolutely against a fixed set with optimal height/weight..

but please make it happen so I can play my most favorite character again 8)

 

[wizrad]

Wait… we're including sizes? … I'm against this. Guest Miis only. That way, there's no chance that someone will forget and we'll have to leave Smash to make a Mii.

 

[WritersBlah]

Wait… we're including sizes? … I'm against this. Guest Miis only. That way, there's no chance that someone will forget and we'll have to leave Smash to make a Mii.

As originally posted by @Amazing Ampharos :
Mii Brawler (Smallest, Thinnest):

Swordfighter (1/4 Height, Thinnest):

Gunner (1/4 Height, Thinnest):

There, here's the QR codes. The same way tournament rules are posted prior to an event, you can't make excuses about being unprepared for a tournament if you make this a widespread ruling like Dave's Stupid Rule or the gentlemen's clause. If you didn't already load these on your Wii U prior to the event, you're accountable, not the TO or Mii players. If you make it widespread on resources like the Smash Wiki or Smash Corner app, people will have no excuse for not having it on their Wii U before an event. I understand you're concerned about convenience, but there's no reason something this quick should be seen as a point against having sizes included in a universal Mii set.

 

[Thinkaman]

I sympathize, but you can't seriously compare preloading Miis to knowing DSR.

The fault resolution for someone failing to know DSR is... you tell them what DSR is.

The fault resolution for someone failing to load approved Miis onto their console is delaying tournament setup.

It's also unclear who is going to be verifying that Miis match community standards, and how/when.

 

[Ajimi]

This whole situation is insane.

Let's take the game as-is: Miis can be used in-game with any size, any weight, any moveset at anytime. There is no way to change that from the game ever ; to do that you need to add external rules, and any of those has to be thoroughly justified with precise competitive reasoning and proofs behind (ex: sudden death not played).

Most people agree for various reasons (mainly logistics) that size and weight should be standardized. Guests Miis are generally accepted for that. That's already a major loss of flexibility and liberty compared to what the game has to offer, but it's mostly fine.
Then it can be argued that being able to counterpick moves between matches is a supplemental/"unfair" advantage to Miis, since with only one character a player has a lot more flexibility against various MUs. Fine, MLG provided a simple but efficient solution to this problem by limiting only one moveset (per type of Mii) per set. Nobody complained.

Point is : we are already talking about a compromise. Don't act as if Mii players don't want to let go anything related to their character, because that's not the case. Yeah they don't want to let go the choice of moveset, because you know that's about the main reason the character was designed in the first place, and his main specificity built in the game core. But they are ready to drop literally everything else for that.
MLG rules (1 moveset per set standard size/weight) were great, because it was a real and comprehensive middle-ground, providing a good sentiment of "fairness" while still being in line with how the game works. Problems were solved with just what was needed, no more, no less. (Note that even when everyone seemed happy with their rules and the event itself ran fine, no other major did the same thing after that. Biais anyone ?)

So with the MLG restrictions in mind, let's try to decrypt what different people really want with all those "meta" thing.

Some people want a "custom: off" meta.
Aka "unless proven necessary [which requires testing], we only use ingame settings and turn customs to off, and thus Miis can choose their moveset". Aka "Miis do not have regular customs, because the game itself says so". Aka "we do not want special treatment by tournament rules, but the exact opposite". Aka "turn the game on and leave us f*cking alone".
I do not think any competitive problem has arisen from such a ruleset (see MLG), and it produces nothing buggy, time-consuming or over-centralizing that could hamper a tournament. Consequently, there is no need for an additional rule. Simpler is better.

Some people want a "no customization" meta.
Aka "Miis are custom characters that require to go to a customization menu to be created, and thus are completely banned". Obviously that's not what the vast majority of people want (removing three whole characters from a competitive fighting game is huge), but at least there is some logical reasoning as to why one can want that. No customization and that's all, no exception.


Some people want a "1111 only" meta.

Now is where it gets tricky. First things first : it makes absolutely no sense to talk about a "1111 character" when the custom setting is set to off. We never talk about a 1111 Mario in Melee or Brawl, simply because there isn't any possible alternative. The same way when customs are turned off, it makes no sense to talk about a "1111 Mario", because any other option (ex: 3212 Mario) doesn't even exist in the first place. It's just Mario. The one time we can legitimately talk about a 1111 character is for Miis, because again, they are a built-in special case. But I guess you will simply relegate that to semantics with a wave of your hand, so oh well.

Next, the big question : which need exactly required to add such a restriction ? Just because it's pretty visually ? To piss off Sakurai ? Or an actual, major problem at a national tournament ? How is the simple fact to be able to "not be 1111" an actual polarizing advantage ? How can you even pretend that this is the "default" when you already went by the general customization menus, are in this particular Mii customization sub-menu, the option to modify his special moves is displayed on-screen, and you have to confirm and save all of those for the Mii to even be created ? Including the fact that the game itself doesn't even care about that in the CSS (a Mii is a Mii), and that Miis have a separate customization sub-menu from other characters, further confirming that they are not the same ?

Even a 100%-free-Mii never proved to be problematic, so with MLG rules added I doubt it will ever happen (let's try). We are a competitive community (growing e-sport) driven by competitive values, and the inner workings of the game we are playing have a greater level of authority than your personal opinion. Prove with actual data that your rule is truly necessary to the competitive future of the game, and that you don't just want it because of a misguided and illusory sentiment of fairness due to 4 digits.

[Edit: As pointed by 19_, maybe you deem "unfair" the fact that a Mii player can still create a tailored moveset after the first match, thus providing both an advantage for the Mii player (greater adaptation) and a disadvantage for the opponent (not knowing in advance what the opponent can choose) ? Well, I do not necessarily agree, but even then we can state that "if a Mii is to be used, it should be created at the beginning of the set only". Problem solved, still without the need of restricting the moves themselves.]


And, some people want a "only one pre-determined set" meta.

Technically, maybe this rule will lead to less complains than a "1111 only" one, but logically speaking that's truly awful. Last year with AA's custom project, it took months of discussions to determine the best sets for each character, and in the end there was still upsets. There was ten sets. And now we're supposed to come up with a universally agreed solution with only one ? That's ridiculous.

But even then, do you include size and weight in this unique set ? This will cause more debates (on both sides). What will be the frequency of future updates (if there are any), monitored by which authority (if there are any) ? Who is in charge of creating/transferring them on each and every tournament setup, TOs ? I doubt any of them would be happy to. It's way simpler to let players create their Mii as they play, but if you do that you win 0 second compared to a free moveset. A 3DS = potential delays + who will verify if the uploaded Mii is really "legal" ? Not to mention that a lambda local Mii player will basically be unable to play the character he wants, possibly forever, with no other reason that "some guys on the other side of the world decided you have to play that way" (because let's be realistic, such a rule will be mindlessly copy-pasted everywhere). You will gain complaints for sure, and maybe lose players.

But the best part is that by that rule, you're implying that "special number 1" is not necessarily the default anymore. Which in itself is good and all, but even when admitting that there is no default value, you still want to arbitrarily impose one, for no other reason than… For what already ? It's not for the simplicity of logistics, as demonstrated. If you are afraid of the "unfair" advantage of a greater flexibility of Miis against MUs between matches, then MLG resolved the problem much more simply. If you are afraid of learning more potential (but rare) matchups yourself, then this is a sh*tty reason : it's a competition with money on the line. If you do not want to learn, someone else will, and he will have rightfully earned his advantage against you. So again, why is that rule necessary, and what are its benefits except for shutting up (a little) Mii players by throwing a bone at them ?


TL;DR
Miis do not have regular customs ; they are intended fully-customizable characters and you should deal with it. We are a competitive community, the law is dictated by the game unless we have a valid reason to go against it. Learn to know what meta you really want, and more importantly why you want it. MLG rules were great for everyone because they were a real comprehensive middle-ground, and not an arbitrary one-sided decision. And the event ran fine. The problem is not what the Mii players want, but the unneeded rules that others/influential members of the community/those in power want to impose to them.

 

[19_]

Technically, maybe this rule will lead to less complains than a "1111 only" one, but logically speaking that's truly awful. Last year with AA's custom project, it took months of discussions to determine the best sets for each character, and in the end there was still upsets. There was ten sets. And now we're supposed to come up with a universally agreed solution with only one ? That's ridiculous.

I am willing to try the one set compromise, but this is the reason why I know it will only work short term.

The fairness argument is something I'm trying to understand and I think it has to do with counerpicking. Even with the mlg rules the you still don't know what mii set could be pulled out.

I still don't think that matters though but people are just stubborn :\

I'm just lucky miis are free in my area I guess, south jersey being young and lively as it is.

 

[WritersBlah]

I sympathize, but you can't seriously compare preloading Miis to knowing DSR.

The fault resolution for someone failing to know DSR is... you tell them what DSR is.

The fault resolution for someone failing to load approved Miis onto their console is delaying tournament setup.

A fair enough assessment, I'll admit to that. I suppose the DSR comparison was inherently flawed. It was meant to be used as an example of looking up rules before an event, but since you pointed out the flaw in that argument, I'll provide a better one.

Not having the required weight/size Miis installed on the Wii U prior to an event would be like not unlocking Smashville or all of the characters prior to an event. There is clearly a precedent to what kind of set-up is tournament-ready, and if the set-up fails that evaluation, then that only ends in potential tournament time wasted rectifying the issue. I'd venture to say the time difference between scanning the QR codes in Mii Maker, reloading Smash, and creating the preset Miis is approximately equivalent to the time it would take to go into event mode and unlock Smashville, if not just slightly longer, but nevertheless, it is a problem of the set-up provider in not containing a complete set-up prior to the event.

It's also unclear who is going to be verifying that Miis match community standards, and how/when.

In an ideal world, this verification would be handled by the TO, but if not, it would most certainly be handled by any Mii mains, who would recognize what the character should feel like at the standard weight/size, unless you're asserting that the size might purposefully be changed by a Mii main salty about the standardization process, which is definitely understandable, but I suppose would simply have to be left up to the players' own integrity and trustworthiness to provide the standard Mii size chosen by the community. That's probably the biggest flaw with this system overall.

 

[Ajimi]

The fairness argument is something I'm trying to understand and I think it has to do with counerpicking. Even with the mlg rules the you still don't know what mii set could be pulled out.

The same way an opponent can pull out any potential character Mii or not. But even if this is considered to be a problem (I think not), a rule stating that "if a Mii is to be used, it should be created at the beginning of the set only" would solve it. That way no surprise, and still no need to restrict the special moves themselves.

(Edit: added that to my big post since this is relevant.)

 

[wizrad]

The thing is, you should know what Mii set your opponent is going to pull out. If you don't, then they're probably not a threat anyways. Like, everyone knows Nairo plays ZSS and everyone knows Mew2King plays Cloud (and sometimes DK) because those are their mains. Anyone who has played me even once could probably tell you that I play 2222 Brawler. That's just how mains work.

 

[teluoborg]

And, some people want a "only one pre-determined set" meta.

Technically, maybe this rule will lead to less complains than a "1111 only" one, but logically speaking that's truly awful. Last year with AA's custom project, it took months of discussions to determine the best sets for each character, and in the end there was still upsets. There was ten sets. And now we're supposed to come up with a universally agreed solution with only one ? That's ridiculous.

But even then, do you include size and weight in this unique set ? This will cause more debates (on both sides). What will be the frequency of future updates (if there are any), monitored by which authority (if there are any) ? Who is in charge of creating/transferring them on each and every tournament setup, TOs ? I doubt any of them would be happy to. It's way simpler to let players create their Mii as they play, but if you do that you win 0 second compared to a free moveset. A 3DS = potential delays + who will verify if the uploaded Mii is really "legal" ? Not to mention that a lambda local Mii player will basically be unable to play the character he wants, possibly forever, with no other reason that "some guys on the other side of the world decided you have to play that way" (because let's be realistic, such a rule will be mindlessly copy-pasted everywhere). You will gain complaints for sure, and maybe lose players.

But the best part is that by that rule, you're implying that "special number 1" is not necessarily the default anymore. Which in itself is good and all, but even when admitting that there is no default value, you still want to arbitrarily impose one, for no other reason than… For what already ? It's not for the simplicity of logistics, as demonstrated. If you are afraid of the "unfair" advantage of a greater flexibility of Miis against MUs between matches, then MLG resolved the problem much more simply. If you are afraid of learning more potential (but rare) matchups yourself, then this is a sh*tty reason : it's a competition with money on the line. If you do not want to learn, someone else will, and he will have rightfully earned his advantage against you. So again, why is that rule necessary, and what are its benefits except for shutting up (a little) Mii players by throwing a bone at them ?

I don't see the issue there.
One of the specials is buffed/nerfed because of a patch ? Change the sets.
We somehow find out that Mii Brawler is definitely broken and have to ban one of his moves ? Change the sets.
The meta shifts too far away from the existing sets and some options become clearly better ? Change the sets.

Everything would be possible IF there was an initiative from the Mii players to publish something easy to set up and comprehend. But no all that has been done is repeat ad infinitum that the movesets can be used with customs off (there's even a GIMR video published repeating the exact same 3 arguments).
God fortbid the poor Mii players couldn't choose from their 81 different sets. Each.

Also : we're playing a game where the decision on the number of stocks (one of the most influential factors in the meta) hasn't been settled, the very existence of the FriiMii movement is to promote change and you guys worry that if you decide on a moveset it will NEVER EVER change ? Get real.

 

[Unknownkid]

I don't see the issue there.
One of the specials is buffed/nerfed because of a patch ? Change the sets.
We somehow find out that Mii Brawler is definitely broken and have to ban one of his moves ? Change the sets.
The meta shifts too far away from the existing sets and some options become clearly better ? Change the sets.

Everything would be possible IF there was an initiative from the Mii players to publish something easy to set up and comprehend. But no all that has been done is repeat ad infinitum that the movesets can be used with customs off (there's even a GIMR video published repeating the exact same 3 arguments).
God fortbid the poor Mii players couldn't choose from their 81 different sets. Each.

Also : we're playing a game where the decision on the number of stocks (one of the most influential factors in the meta) hasn't been settled, the very existence of the FriiMii movement is to promote change and you guys worry that if you decide on a moveset it will NEVER EVER change ? Get real.

An easy to set up and comprehend is the MLG Rule Set (One Set per Mii type per Player - Default Height and Weight). It was established by Chibo a ROB/Mii Gunner main and TO for his region. First, used in MLG Major. It has been used in the last (?) KTar and now this week Shot Fired 2. Majority of players (mii users and non mii users) are or should be satisfied with this rule set.

-Mii players need to register their set when signing up for the tournament,
-They get to create their miis before the match (if it isn't there initially) just like creating your nametag or configure your controls.
-Showcase their set to the opponent if ask
-However, they are not allow to change their set (they are stuck with that set for rest of the tournament).
-They are using Default Size so anyone can practice against them.
-If someone new joins the scene, he/she doesn't have to forced themselves to use a "Golden Set" but rather use what works for his or her playstyle.
-Best of all, the TO doesn't have to premade the set like Customs. Everything is right there - right out of the box. No grinds for special, no paying 5.99 for top tier characters, no playing the game or event mode to unlock them. They are the fastest characters to unlock in the game.

So what is the problem?

 

[B-Black]

Do you think they have a "default" h/w?
Is medium h/w considered as default?
Because I play a small thin mii in tournaments, with an optimal h/w for a set such as 3312 gunner.
Why can't we let the height/weight option free?

 

[Unknownkid]

Do you think they have a "default" h/w?
Is medium h/w considered as default?
Because I play a small thin mii in tournaments, with an optimal h/w for a set such as 3312 gunner.
Why can't we let the height/weight option free?

Well, there are already Miis implement in the game or else you will not have "Fight the Mii Team" in Single Player Mode.The height and weight of those Miis are supposedly 50:50~
1) Because players don't want to practice, memorize, and play against exaggerated amount of Miis with vary sizes with sets
2) To create optimal size/desire size it requires either close the Smash software or using an external device (3ds) which most players seem to lack of or choose not to assist the needed individual (Yeah, some community we have here).
3) Apparently, the optimal size seem to be too powerful for the community to handle. (Tiny Brawler's HK combination, Tiny Gunner's Movements, Tiny Swordfighter's Chakram Infinity)

I am sure there is more "reasons" but the MLG rules set is best compromise for everyone - For Miis, for Players, for TOs and for Spectators.