Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Frihetsanka]

This is either a really good or terrible idea, but I think it is good.

It's a terrible idea. Most players haven't spend much time developing counter-play yet, but some of those that did (like MkLeo) are doing well into Steve. Without Onin and acola Steve wouldn't even make top 8 at most majors.

 

[Aligo]

Oh yeah, I meant not immediately, but if the problems persist in the future. It is too early to have that kind of restriction. However it would be somewhat ironic to say that mains of character that have bad mus Vs the problem characters should go get a secondary, but then turn around and say it would be problematic for the mains of said problem characters to have to have secondaries due to set limits.

It is also telling that Mkleo, who is pretty much the Goku of smash ultimate, is the only example used for effective Steve counterplay. If the advice is learn the matchup/counterplay is given without actually talking about any useful strategies or weaknesses of the character, it is pretty much no advice at all.

 

[Frihetsanka]

However it would be somewhat ironic to say that mains of character that have bad mus Vs the problem characters should go get a secondary, but then turn around and say it would be problematic for the mains of said problem characters to have to have secondaries due to set limits.

Not really? If you want to put character limits in a set it should probably for every character, so maybe "If you've won a game with a character you cannot use that character for the rest of the set", but singling out one or two specific characters seems odd. I don't think it would be a good idea though, if they're going to be banned, it'd probably better to ban them entirely rather than "once per set". I don't think anyone is getting banned though, and most likely no one should get banned.

If the advice is learn the matchup/counterplay is given without actually talking about any useful strategies or weaknesses of the character, it is pretty much no advice at all.

Learning a matchup takes time, you'd want to actually play the matchup a bunch. Find a Steve player to grind with, look at various sets, ask questions in the Steve Discord/your character's Discord, look at counter-play videos (like this: https://youtu.be/t2PkUp57I2I)

Learning a matchup takes time. Steve and Kazuya are probably here to stay, so spending time to learn the matchups might be a good investment.

 

[StoicPhantom]

It's a little late to make an All Hallows Steve pun, but it looks like this talk is back again. Not just talk but action towards this as well. Allow me to pontificate on why this is a horrible idea.

First, let's get one thing straight here. Steve is hard. Like very hard. Steve is hard and that's why nobody wants to adopt him. If you don't think Steve is hard try actually playing him. Try quickly making a block wall with horizontal blocks without accidentally buffering Minecart thanks to this game's awful buffer system. And that's just basic movement with the character.

I've seen a lot of crazy talk like Steve is MU agnostic and is really easy to play. I've not seen a lot of talk about Steve's unique disadvantage in that his resources are not timer-based and require active gathering. Even Hero has his MP slowly charge and has strong defensive tools to help further that. Robin's spent resources automatically charge and Robin still has things like Bronze Sword to fall back on. Steve completely loses utility when he's low on resources.

And it isn't just that he loses utility when he's low on resources. He has to spend resources in order to gain resources and is the only character in Smash history to be subject to the laws of thermodynamics. His opponents won't allow him to just casually mine so he has to erect barriers in order to protect his operation. He can't do that if he lacks resources in the first place.

And it isn't just his mining operations but every single facet of his play relies on resources. Other resource characters have things that aren't tied to resources to fall back on like Robin's strong jumps or Hero's strong defensive tools (e.g. Up-Tilt). Steve is completely helpless without a sufficient number of resources in any state. Can't Dair or Minecart without iron, can't construct strong walls without stone, and he can't block without anything. A Steve without a sufficient amount of ALL resources is a Steve with major holes in his defense.

He can't mine without resources, he can't escape disadvantage without resources, he can't maintain a strong advantage without resources, and he can't play neutral without resources. Exactly how is this character so super duper broken that he needs to banned? Some characters may struggle to pressure his mining operation sure, but other characters like can easily ensure he is always playing with a limited deck. Resource gathering is not about player skill but about MU and playing Steve at top level requires the ability to play without fundamental tools other characters take for granted. It isn't that Steve has to fall back on less good tools like Robin does with Bronze/Levin Sword, he loses those tools entirely. Steve's position on the tier list rises and falls based on how many resources he has. You don't see other top players flocking to Steve because the investment in playing the character even moderately well is insane. Top players are the first to pickup "broken" characters when they are easy and require low investment. Ban talk comes when the character is strong and requires high investment.


But this isn't about the players or about maintaining competitive balance. This is about player attendance and audience viewership. AKA revenue generation. See this tweet for example:

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The problem I see in these types of discussions is that players keep assuming that this is being done solely for their consideration and benefit. They don't realize they were dropped as a consideration a long time ago and it is all about corporate profits now. eSports is not about competition but about turning players into commodities for audience consumption. TOs and their corporate masters make their money from entry fees and audience attendance/viewership. What actually happens in the matches themselves is of no concern to them unless it bores the casual observers in the audience. If a bracket full of Rob and Sonic generated the most revenue you can bet that every other character would be banned if they could get away with it.

And that is really all that is going on with this. If this were taken solely as a competitive balancing maneuver, it would require us to ignore top 16 being inundated with Sonic and Rob because of the one time Kazuya managed to win a major. You would have to ignore that Aegis has been tried by the cream of the crop and was either dropped or relegated to secondary because no one could make those two work consistently. You would have to ignore that the two Steve players that won a major are leagues above the rest of the rather middling high level Steve players.

Speaking of Rob and Sonic, has anyone realized that nothing was ever said about stopping at FP2? All the morons out there currently gloating at Steve and Kazuya players don't seem to realize that this is an experiment in seeing what combinations of characters generate greater or less revenue. That means that their characters might be on the chopping block in the future if they are determined to be a detriment to profits. You're probably not going to see a permanent ban on wildly popular characters like Pyra and Mythra, but you better be playing a character with strong popular support among the audience.

Because this is a classic case of "They came for the Jews..." in that a slippery slope is gently being tested here and FP2 haters think this isn't going to eventually affect them. They're going to start with the least popular and most complained about characters and then slowly poke and prod at others to see which generate the most resistance among those that matter (to their profits). You can be like a previous poster that tried to ridicule people and say that this is only one local. But others are watching and if this generates significant amount of profit that temptation is always going to be there. There's also the fact that isolated bans are only going to deprive the players of those locals of valuable MU experience if they travel to others. These types of bans aren't really effective unless they are universally applied from a player perspective.

So if we're going to continue engaging in ban talk we should shift the focus to whether we should allow external factors like the profits of corporate middlemen or audience enjoyment dictate how we play our game. If we can't even agree on who the best character is there is no need for banning characters based solely on balance reasons. The actual given reasons for this experiment are not about competitive balance but for corporate profits. They'll spin this as being for the players, but they're just looking for quantity over quality and trying to attract mediocrities that would refuse to attend because of a single character.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I just wondered what happened in between creating characters for FP1 than FP2.

In FP1 Nintendo seemed to really not want to repeat the Smash 4 Bayo and to a lesser extent Cloud by balancing many of the characters with very clear weakness or flaws to go with thier strengths to keep the from being too powerful. More example most of the FP1 bass either had below average mobility/frame data to keep them in relative check. Even Joker who quickly was considered very strong and potentially #1 his release was still not overwhelmingly strong and mostly manageable even before his nerfs.

Then came FP2 where it seemed the design philosophy from FP1 was thrown out the window and created many characters with "toxic" playstyles and strengths that very very overcentralizing and overturned compared to any weaknesses they had.

First was Min-Min who quickly become extremely disliked due to her keep away and edgeguarding which have many characters with low mobility and/or explotable recoveries a very hard time. Min-Min was especially reviled and actively complained about in Japan which likey combined with being the First character in FP2 where she did get a fair amount of nerfs to make her more manageable.

Skipping ahead a bit to taking about the Aegis since they next character to really raise concerns that they seems very strong and overturned. People were fearing they would be the Next Smash 4 Bayo even before Steve to to how clearly strong and straightforward thier playstyle was. Indeed they did get very strong results at first thanks top level players like MKLeo, Sparg0 and Shuton picking them up. Plus the nefs they got were Basically slaps on the wrist.

But fast forward now and said players only seem to Co-Main them or switch to them for Matchups there preferred character struggles with. While they are still very strong and likey Top 3-5 but they really have not really been as dominant as people feared. Maybe it's due to the fact the Aegis are so straightforward and simple that it seems they have already peaked potential wise. This is it kid of raiser to deal with the MU and develop counterplay. It can also seem that MKLeo and Spargo say they have more fun with using their other swordies of choice.

Then finally we come to Steve and Kazuya. When both of them first relased the options of them were Prerty mixed overall. Yes they had high strengths but they seemed to have very big weakness to balance them out somewhat. Indeed at first thier results were decent but nothing too much to worry about.

But Steve and Kazuya by their designs had lots of potential tech and combos that would take time and practice to fully being out thier potential and once dedicated players started figuring out all their options and optimal playstyles it became apparent how good they would be. Suddenly they spiked in results and then they became the new enemies of the smash community. With people wishing for Balance patches that would never come.

The primary thing that changed about FP1 to FP2 is that they tried to make a lot the FP2 characters a little TOO faithful to their source material, and despite them add debilitating weaknesses to counterbalance their strengths, the tools and playstyle from their source material is too game-breaking to even counterbalance that.

Why is Aegis so fundamentally strong, yet are the ones to be more "figured out" than other newly introduced top tiers?
Answer: they are strong not because they play Xenoblade 2 in Smash, but because they play Smash Bros better than most characters. Same thing with Joker.
They are great characters all-around with not that much glaring weaknesses, but they play same game as everyone else in the end. It is why Aegis was seen as a strong character immediately after release. They fit into the archetype that makes top tiers in Smash Bros strong: great speed, frame data, disjoint, and KO power, yet lacks anything that is too foreign in Smash either. I guess that is also why they give off a "boring" feeling to a general audience.

Min Min, Steve, and Kazuya are strong because they play ARMS, Minecraft, and Tekken (respectively) in Smash Bros.

Very long analysis on:

Spoiler: Min Min

Min Min is interesting/unique, as having an ARMS rep in Smash is a tough sell to begin with.
The entire premise of ARMS is to fight across the stage with the ARMS attacks and react to the opponent's actions accordingly.
This kind of thing will inevitably have issues translating into Smash, as the entire concept of Min Min's design and gameplan breaks the mold of how Smash is played. She will inevitably be an extremely frustrating and debilitating character to fight against for lower-tiered/slower/poor-recovery characters, unless she is deliberately made a terrible character.
She is thankfully held back by committal attacks with areas where it hard for her to cover (leading her to have problematic matchups against rushdown) and has a poor disadvantage.

Spoiler: Steve

Now Steve and Kazuya are both interesting in the fact they have very polarizing weaknesses WHILE being very complex characters.

To put in perspective on how slow Steve is, he possesses: the 11th slowest dash speed, the SLOWEST initial dash in the game, the 12-14th slowest walk speed, the 7th worst air speed, the WORST jump height in the game, the 3rd worst double jump height (with only Kirby and Puff being lower), and a lower than average airdodge (only 3 other characters share this distinction).
As a matter of fact, Steve by far the slowest top tier in Smash history.
Apply this, alongside linear approach options, reliance on a resource mechanic, and not-so-great range, these weaknesses would make any normal character a low/bottom tier character. As such, once you consider this alongside on how complex the character is, it is quite understandable why perceptions on this character was so mixed for so long and why it took so long for the character to take off. It certainly didn't help that he was released in the middle of the online era, with online buffing him, and thus was written off as an online character.

However, you consider that Steve brings Minecraft to Smash Bros.
Unfortunately for us, Steve's gameplan, attributes, and tools from Minecraft are fundamentally game breaking for Smash.
Why does Steve have lightning fast frame data? Because that is how his attacks work in Minecraft.
Why is his forward smash so strong, have good reach, and decent speed for these traits? Because that is how his swipe attack works in Minecraft: Java Edition.
Why is Steve forced to camp for materials and draw the pace of the match to a halt? Because that is what you do in Minecraft; you gather materials and use them to create weapons and other tools.
Why is diamond so strong? Cause diamond is freakishly strong in Minecraft and is the ultimate reward for finding one of the game's rarest materials.

And then there is the entire existence of Blocks, a move seen to be Monado Art tier of game-breaking. The ability to create terrain and walls for the opponent is such a game-breaking power of the character. It is a move that singlehandely fixes most of the drawbacks that comes with his terrible mobility.
The worst jumps in the game? Create create a block to adjust the height.
Run out of iron so you essentially have no down air with poor air mobility in disadvantage? Place a block.
Have trouble dealing with zoners and rushdown that barely give you room to breath when mining? Create a wall.

The worst part about this move is this simple question: how exactly do you nerf this move?
The way the move works and why it is as game-breaking as it is, is that blocks acts like actual stage terrain. It is the reason why they remade all the stages in the game in order to implement Steve into the game: it is the only way blocks is able to function as a move in Smash.
Outside of that, what do you do?
The move is so fundamentally busted that no amount of nerfs can fix it, with certain ideas for nerfs also buffing the move in other areas since both Steve AND the opponent has access to them.
It is also not like he cannot have the move either. The ability to place blocks IS Minecraft.

His gameplay design around Anvil and Minecart is also with the assumption that iron is a valuable material used sparingly. A large part of why Minecart is as strong as it is, is that it is the move that burns the most resources using: iron for the cart and lesser materials for the rails. Anvil is strong because without it, Steve has no down air, and combined with his terrible air speed and jumps, will have an abysmal disadvantage on paper.
However there are two problems with this:
1) Steve gains resources too quickly for iron conservation to be an actual issue. Same thing applies when mining for gold and diamond.
2) Blocks fixes his disadvantage issues and makes it among the best in the game despite his abysmal mobility stats.

Spoiler: Kazuya

Now for Kazuya, it is again interesting, as he is a character that actual needs all the BS in his toolkit in order to even be a remotely viable character.
Like in Tekken, Kazuya is a character with extremely high damage combos thanks to EWGF, and he carries along the Tekken series tradition of generally very high damage in his toolkit.
However like in Tekken, his frames are not very good, especially in terms of startup. If you look at the other FGC characters, they possess some of the best frame data in the game. Kazuya.... not so much. Frame data in 3D fighting games are known to be a lot higher in terms of startup frame data in comparison to most other fighters. Sakurai even stated during Kazuya's presentation showcase that it needed to be sped up from Tekken to make Kazuya not a terrible character.
However even in his current state, his startup frame data is very lacking. His fastest grounded button is his frame 6 jab, and the vast majority of his other moves (particularly his tilts) have double digit startup. Similar case with Bowser and DK, but those two are helped compensated with high mobility and reach. His mobility, while not quite as egregiously bad as Steve, is still very lacking across the board, which includes second worse walk speed, 4th worst initial dash speed, and the second worst jump height in the game, with his double jump also being among the slowest in the game. He also has the unfortunate depiction of having a 7 frame jumpsquat, which is not only not great to have in general, but especially bad in a game where everyone else has a frame 3 one.

So without all of his invincibility to help land his moves and make up for his lacking reach and frame data, and the current state of EWGF being a death combo machine like in Tekken, he just turns into an awkward hybrid of Little Mac and Ganondorf, with a scent of FGC influence (auto-turnaround and complex inputs). He would be the ultimate noob smasher character that falls apart fighting any remotely viable character, while also being extremely execution heavy at the same time. Characters that are bad but noob stompers are arguably even more difficult to balance, which is part of why Ganondorf is left relatively alone throughout the game's life despite how unviable he is.
Kazuya is an example where he is both enhanced and brought down heavily in order to make him viable. Despite his polarizing terrible traits, it is brought up extremely thanks to the fact that EWGF is indeed an invincible, fast, death combo machine. Without this move, Kazuya would teleport all the way down in the tier list. It a move so unbelievably busted that it would give the large portion of the cast true death combos that is safe to throw out, or at the very least, true KO confirms.
Unfortunately, and this is kind of part of why Kazuya can be a rather shaky choice when it comes to choosing a character to rep Tekken, Kazuya in Tekken is also very EWGF reliant. Part of what makes Kazuya high tier in Tekken 7 is that EWGF in its state in that game is also extremely busted. However, it is busted in a game that is designed around it and the character. EWGF in Smash? Welp...

By making Kazuya fundamentally faithful to Tekken, the Smash team put themselves in an extremely uncomfortable position when it comes designing and working around his fundamental strengths and weaknesses, ultimately leading to his current state.

So tl:Dr, it is not that the Smash team "threw their balance principles out of the window" when designing most of FP2. It is that they try to make the characters too faithful to their original source material while applying extreme counterbalances to offset it, counterbalances that would make normal characters low/bottom tier if they have their traits. It is that their source material traits/attributes don't exactly fit well in Smash, leading to the current mess.

 

[Aligo]

The problem with Steve and Kaz is not their unique aspects, its the fact that they do exorbitant amount of damage per hit. I would also say that smash Steve is a lot stronger than his canon self, as most Minecraft weapons swing slowly as of combat update, takes lots of fall damage, has to craft anvils and minecarts before using them, and does not keep their inventory after death, nevermind the fact that without armour he is very fragile. Min min is not seen as a problem as she has damage more in line with the rest of the cast.

Aegis takes a bit more effort than other top swordies as it is hard to kill (Pyra may just be the worst character in the game frame data wise) making stocks last longer and reversals more likely. This is why she is generally related to difficult matchups such as sonic. At least it gives a bunch of folks good reason to play them, I suppose.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

New tier list coming from r/smashbros for September - October 2022

For the first time, Steve is considered #1 on r/smashbros. Last time he was considered either #2 or #3.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Some notable placements: Joker at #2 (I wonder why, maybe because MkLeo used to dominate so much with him in the past? Or maybe because few people voted him Top tier -?). ROB #4 is interesting as well (and fairly justified). Pikachu #5 is surprising, I thought he would've dropped to Top tier - by now, but seems some people still think he belongs in Top tier +. Sonic at #6 is noteworthy as well, as is Kazuya at #8. Corrin making it to High Tier - is cool (and accurate, in my opinion). Hero making it to High tier - is a bit surprising though, I feel like we haven't seen that character much lately? It's a character I myself overrated in the past, but I think his poor frame data is keeping him from being a high tier. He's the second lowest in High tier - so I suppose he's almost Mid.

Dr. Mario in Bottom tier is surprising and questionable. His results seem too good for bottom 3. Overall the tier list doesn't look too strange though.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Pikachu #5 is surprising, I thought he would've dropped to Top tier - by now, but seems some people still think he belongs in Top tier +.

Apparently, Pikachu is treading on thin ice rn, the person who complies the scores thought he did get put into Top Tier -, but he missed some scores.

 

[Rocketjay8]

New tier list coming from r/smashbros for September - October 2022

For the first time, Steve is considered #1 on r/smashbros. Last time he was considered either #2 or #3.

Hm, Incineroar should be at the top of Mid +, Hero and Pichu should be at Mid +, Sonic and Pika should switch places, Kazuya and Fox should switch places, and Doc should be in mid -. Dk and Krool I know are better than Zelda, Bowser jr, and Banjo.

 

[blackghost]

thinking your personal main is safe when all these others go on the chopping block is not a smart play.

truth be told i don't think most of the smash community even really likes actual competitive play. when I see complaints that my low tier cant beat a high tier and i need a secondary I want to bang my head against a wall.

next are we gonna kee this pattern up? are we just gonna ban whatever the popular strong character is in any region? does georgia lose its roys? does the NE lose palutena?

does japan lose (Lucina?) not a fan of the slippery slope argument but this is the most possible case ive seen in a while. DFW got a bunch of players back. and that means more fees collected and even viewership was up. dont see any reason to think these players will stay long-term.

America is not the center of the smash scene steve is not producing anywhere else. and part of smash beauty is how different regions develop their own metas then nationals combine those metas exposing and introducing hidden bosses.

i dont think its a matter of being too faithful to outside games smash is a video game celebration and these characters existing in their state is part of that. imo the majo issues has to do with stage selection. all these characters have weaknesses we have modified the game to the point where they simply dont matter.

 

[Aligo]

I'm pretty sure most stages would benefit Steve and sonic due to being larger than the ones currently used, unfortunately.

 

[st0pnsw0p]

Unless there's a historical example of a character ban in a competitive game opening the floodgates to banning every unpopular character in the game, all this talk of a slippery slope sounds baseless. Same with the hypothetical scenario that in case of a ban the Steve and Kazuya players will all as a hivemind choose to switch to Sonic, ROB, Min Min, or some other unpopular character. If Steve and Kazuya get banned, that's likely to be the full extent of the bans.

 

[Arthur97]

Seriously, of those the only one that might see widespread adoption would probably be R.O.B., but he's already really popular to use. Remember when people thought he was bad cause big?

 

[Aligo]

Unless there's a historical example of a character ban in a competitive game opening the floodgates to banning every unpopular character in the game, all this talk of a slippery slope sounds baseless. Same with the hypothetical scenario that in case of a ban the Steve and Kazuya players will all as a hivemind choose to switch to Sonic, ROB, Min Min, or some other unpopular character. If Steve and Kazuya get banned, that's likely to be the full extent of the bans.

I would agree with that. Steve has multiple legitimate factors warranting a ban. Stalling due to planking. Meteor and hitstun cancelling. Slows games down substantially. Very high winrates and fastest gain of orionrank, being +100 points ahead of even Rob. Multiple fast and extremely similar looking moves that allow for simple stings to do 50% damage and multiple easy kill confirms below 100. Extremely good recovery, moderately high weight, has an excellent burst option in minecrart that can both kill and act as a projectile command grab that leads into kill confirms. Dependant on keep away and stalling due to a dependance on mining, slowing down games and making the viewer experience worse. Then you have blocks, which promotes passive play and can make recovering straight up impossible for many members of the cast. The only contribution the character has ever had is the ability to make rude shapes on the stage.

Kazuya is basically a heavy little Mac that can kill off of a single interaction and has a overpowerd input move that will be spammed. He has the tf2 sniper problem where he limits player interaction as the majority of kazuya matchup depends on whether he drops his combos. Certainly not as bad as Steve but not good either.

No other character has anything to warrant a ban like this. The idea of Lucina being banned is rather absurd. It is better to lose one or two characters rather than an entire game.

I would rather have the characters be fun and playable in the meta, hence my desire to try and get a balance patch, but if such a thing can't happen, partial or full bans would be the next best thing.

 

[Rocketjay8]

I would agree with that. Steve has multiple legitimate factors warranting a ban. Stalling due to planking. Meteor and hitstun cancelling. Slows games down substantially. Very high winrates and fastest gain of orionrank, being +100 points ahead of even Rob. Multiple fast and extremely similar looking moves that allow for simple stings to do 50% damage and multiple easy kill confirms below 100. Extremely good recovery, moderately high weight, has an excellent burst option in minecrart that can both kill and act as a projectile command grab that leads into kill confirms. Dependant on keep away and stalling due to a dependance on mining, slowing down games and making the viewer experience worse. Then you have blocks, which promotes passive play and can make recovering straight up impossible for many members of the cast. The only contribution the character has ever had is the ability to make rude shapes on the stage.

Kazuya is basically a heavy little Mac that can kill off of a single interaction and has a overpowerd input move that will be spammed. He has the tf2 sniper problem where he limits player interaction as the majority of kazuya matchup depends on whether he drops his combos. Certainly not as bad as Steve but not good either.

No other character has anything to warrant a ban like this. The idea of Lucina being banned is rather absurd. It is better to lose one or two characters rather than an entire game.

I would rather have the characters be fun and playable in the meta, hence my desire to try and get a balance patch, but if such a thing can't happen, partial or full bans would be the next best thing.

Honestly, so what if Steve is the best character in the game? There is always going to be someone to be the best character in the game man. We can just ban the use of these techniques of Planking and Meteor canceling if they get too problematic.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I'm pretty sure most stages would benefit Steve and sonic due to being larger than the ones currently used, unfortunately.

Lylat would be the main candidate in order to nerf Steve and Kazuya, and removing Kalos would help too. The former will be tricky to push since so many players dislike Lylat, the latter should be easier given that Kalos has so many issues (overlap with FD, timeouts being easier than on other stages, and it's really easy for Steve to drop anvils on Kalos compared to other stages, to name a few).

I've posted this a few times already but it's relevant and maybe some people didn't watch it yet so I might as well post it again:

Steve has multiple legitimate factors warranting a ban. Stalling due to planking. Meteor and hitstun cancelling. Slows games down substantially. Very high winrates and fastest gain of orionrank, being +100 points ahead of even Rob. Multiple fast and extremely similar looking moves that allow for simple stings to do 50% damage and multiple easy kill confirms below 100. Extremely good recovery, moderately high weight, has an excellent burst option in minecrart that can both kill and act as a projectile command grab that leads into kill confirms. Dependant on keep away and stalling due to a dependance on mining, slowing down games and making the viewer experience worse. Then you have blocks, which promotes passive play and can make recovering straight up impossible for many members of the cast. The only contribution the character has ever had is the ability to make rude shapes on the stage.

In order to be ban worthy in a fighting game, it has to be really, really, really, really strong. I recommend reading this: https://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned

Many of the things you mentioned aren't really used much by Steve-players. Will they be eventually? Who knows, but right they're not. Planking is not an issue right now. Meteor/hitstun cancelling doesn't seem to be as good as some people seem to think it is. "Slows games down substantially" is not even true, many Steve sets are quite fast. His OrionRank rating isn't that impressive, Wolf had 780.25 points in 2019 (Snake at 715.5, Palutena 646).

Making the viewer experience worse I strongly disagree with. Many people, me included, think he's quite fun to watch, and regardless that's not a good reason to ban a character and it shouldn't be part of your argument when arguing for a ban. Right now, Steve isn't close to being ban worthy. The concern is that he'll one day develop enough to be, but right now he's not close. If you look at other fighting game characters that were banned you'll see that they were way more dominant than Steve is right now.

All of this applies to Kazuya as well (and Sonic, ROB, or whoever else people might want to ban). Banning a character in a fighting game is quite difficult to do, for good reason. Steve is not close to being banworthy yet, and probably never will be (though "Steve gets buffed every 48 hours" could be an issue in the long term, hah).

 

[Rocketjay8]

Lylat would be the main candidate in order to nerf Steve and Kazuya, and removing Kalos would help too. The former will be tricky to push since so many players dislike Lylat, the latter should be easier given that Kalos has so many issues (overlap with FD, timeouts being easier than on other stages, and it's really easy for Steve to drop anvils on Kalos compared to other stages, to name a few).

I've posted this a few times already but it's relevant and maybe some people didn't watch it yet so I might as well post it again:

In ordet to be ban worthy in a fighting game, it has to be really, really, really, really strong. I recommend reading this: https://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned

Many of the things you mentioned aren't really used much by Steve-players. Will they be eventually? Who knows, but right they're not. Planking is not an issue right now. Meteor/hitstun cancelling doesn't seem to be as good as some people seem to think it is. "Slows games down substantially" is not even true, many Steve sets are quite fast. His OrionRank rating isn't that impressive, Wolf had 780.25 points in 2019 (Snake at 715.5, Palutena 646).

Making the viewer experience worse I strongly disagree with. Many people, me included, think he's quite fun to watch, and regardless that's not a good reason to ban a character and it shouldn't be part of your argument when arguing for a ban. Right now, Steve isn't close to being ban worthy. The concern is that he'll one day develop enough to be, but right now he's not close. If you look at other fighting game characters that were banned you'll see that they were way more dominant than Steve is right now.

All of this applies to Kazuya as well (and Sonic, ROB, or whoever else people might want to ban). Banning a character in a fighting game is quite difficult to do, for good reason. Steve is not close to being banworthy yet, and probably never will be (though "Steve gets buffed every 48 hours" could be an issue in the long term, hah).

I think that steve is a really fun top-tier to see in competitive. There has been some really cool tech for some characters in the Mu.

Aerial Falcon kick on dirt cancels the moves' landing lag and goes through Magma block.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I think that steve is a really fun top-tier to see in competitive.

I actually think he can be one of the most fun characters to watch in the game. People should look up some acola sets aside from just those played at majors. He does so many small things/techs that might be easy to miss if you don't know what you're looking for (like reversing his direction out of a Minecart in order to do a bair, using NIL2 for ladders, or dropping a TNT off-stage in order to get rid of dirt). Also keep an eye out for how Steves use material: When do they craft tools and why? How are they using blocks? In what situations are they using anvil/minecart etc? There's a lot to process with Steve, he's a very deep character.

 

[blackghost]

I actually think he can be one of the most fun characters to watch in the game. People should look up some acola sets aside from just those played at majors. He does so many small things/techs that might be easy to miss if you don't know what you're looking for (like reversing his direction out of a Minecart in order to do a bair, using NIL2 for ladders, or dropping a TNT off-stage in order to get rid of dirt). Also keep an eye out for how Steves use material: When do they craft tools and why? How are they using blocks? In what situations are they using anvil/minecart etc? There's a lot to process with Steve, he's a very deep character.

Id rather watch steve and kazuya fight than watch ROB, minmin, or sonic. but we are in pure subjective takes at that point.

i havent seen it in the fighting game but in pokemon when the top tiers in singles get removed in any particular tier all it does is create a power vocuum for another pokemon to fill. pokemon singles like smash isn't the way pokemon is designed to be played. Pokemon is designed for doubles

only recent banning of a character in fgc was android 21 because hse made games take too long. shes now been nerfed and is back in play.

given the fact this is the smash game we will likely be with for a LONG time (Sakurai seems to be truly done) we should be very careful of what we do moving forward. also with what looks like a second genesis of fighting games on the horizon (project L, the universally loved SF6, tekken 8, kof already id back) and more) if smash doesnt take care of its scene it will lose serious competitive players.

even multiversus is as well but i have my own takes on that game. that dont really mater here.

 

[Cheryl~]

I find it funny whenever Steve's planking is mentioned as reasoning for a ban. Have we ever seen a set where a Steve player actually commits to planking for more than like, 5-10 seconds in a match and actually benefits off of it? Half the time I see them plank for very short amounts of time just to gain some resources before getting back on stage, and even then the planking isn't that unpunishable. I've seen a ton of scenarios where the Steve tries to plank to be cheeky, and then the other player punishes them for it (Ex. p sure Riddles D-Aired a Steve for doing it once) Of course the strength for Steve is that he has fast options to counteract the attempts to punish the planking but I've never actually seen it be that beneficial in a match, certainly not enough to be problematic. Honestly doesn't even seem as good as Sephiroth's planking, and nowhere near as good as Brawl MK planking as I've seen some compare it to. Just seems like a reach for people wanting Steve to be banned or people too scared of a mechanic that just isn't that good in Ultimate compared to other games in the series.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I would agree with that. Steve has multiple legitimate factors warranting a ban. Stalling due to planking. Meteor and hitstun cancelling. Slows games down substantially. Very high winrates and fastest gain of orionrank, being +100 points ahead of even Rob. Multiple fast and extremely similar looking moves that allow for simple stings to do 50% damage and multiple easy kill confirms below 100. Extremely good recovery, moderately high weight, has an excellent burst option in minecrart that can both kill and act as a projectile command grab that leads into kill confirms. Dependant on keep away and stalling due to a dependance on mining, slowing down games and making the viewer experience worse. Then you have blocks, which promotes passive play and can make recovering straight up impossible for many members of the cast. The only contribution the character has ever had is the ability to make rude shapes on the stage.

Kazuya is basically a heavy little Mac that can kill off of a single interaction and has a overpowerd input move that will be spammed. He has the tf2 sniper problem where he limits player interaction as the majority of kazuya matchup depends on whether he drops his combos. Certainly not as bad as Steve but not good either.

No other character has anything to warrant a ban like this. The idea of Lucina being banned is rather absurd. It is better to lose one or two characters rather than an entire game.

I would rather have the characters be fun and playable in the meta, hence my desire to try and get a balance patch, but if such a thing can't happen, partial or full bans would be the next best thing.

Find me a set where Steve stalled for a long period of time.

Because I'm not aware of time outs with Steve being common. If that was an issue then why aren't you arguing for Sonic's ban? He's MORE passive and stally than Steve ever was. Sonic certainly isn't fun for anyone.

Gonna be real with you Cheif. You're buying into the Steve bogeyman more than the game itself.

 

[Aligo]

Find me a set where Steve stalled for a long period of time.

Because I'm not aware of time outs with Steve being common. If that was an issue then why aren't you arguing for Sonic's ban? He's MORE passive and stally than Steve ever was. Sonic certainly isn't fun for anyone.

Gonna be real with you Cheif. You're buying into the Steve bogeyman more than the game itself.

Good point. The thing with sonic though is that he gets utterly wrecked by aegis and any other characters that can get close, basically being useless outside of running away. I also know kaz suffers against samus, min min and any stage with platforms, but I can't think of any particular counterpicks for Steve. Am I missing something critical here?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Steve probably has a good amount of Even matchups and maybe even a few slightly loosng matchups. Characters like Sonic, Min Min, Robin, Sephiroth, Hero, Pokémon Trainer, Aegis could be Even, some might be slightly losing. Regardless, it's not like we ban characters just because they don't lose any matchups. Picking Steve into Steve is always an option, or going one of the even matchup (Steve doesn't win every matchup in the game).

I've been looking into why other fighting games ban characters and generally it's because of reasons such as "This character is several times stronger than everyone else", "This character gets to revive a life bar by using a super meter", "This character is console exclusive" (for SoulCalibur games, like Link cannot be played on Xbox consoles), etc. Steve and Kazuya? Neither of them seem to be close to that.

At the end of the day, I think the ban talk is doing the game a disservice. The bar for banning a character in a fighting game is really high.

Steve is probably the best character in the game (although I don't think he's as good as Smash 4 Bayonetta). There's a good chance Kazuya is the #2 char, and his design is quite annoying to play against (get hit once and you might die). Even so, neither character seems to break the game, and while they are overpowered, merely being somewhat overpowered isn't enough to warrant a ban. And people were talking about a Steve ban 10 months ago. I would say that there's pretty clear that there is some bias in play here, 10 months ago Steve didn't have nearly the results to warrant a ban.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Good point. The thing with sonic though is that he gets utterly wrecked by aegis and any other characters that can get close, basically being useless outside of running away. I also know kaz suffers against samus, min min and any stage with platforms, but I can't think of any particular counterpicks for Steve. Am I missing something critical here?

Characters with disjoints. That stubby range really does affect Steve and we can see that with players like MKLeo and Proto choosing characters like Byleth or Min Min and winning.

Byleth, Min Min, Sephiroth and the like aren't automatic win buttons, but they do make Steve work harder.

That aside, the stage list needs reworking. I can't imagine Steve being able to play a stall game on Wario Ware for example. From what I hear, Lylat is hard too.

 

[Arthur97]

Kazuya as second best? Really?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Kazuya as second best? Really?

I honestly do feel that Kazuya and Ice Climbers are gonna be real scary when the game is fully developed.

They're like "Shulk potential" but like I actually believe it this time.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Kazuya as second best? Really?

Not sure if you've missed it but a lot of people want Kazuya banned as well. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they think Kazuya is top 2 (since it would be really silly to ban a character that isn't top 2 unless you have some really good reason for it). Dabuz seems to think Kazuya might be top 2 as well, and some other top players. The character has a surprising amount of depth. Riddles made a MU chart and it only had 4 slightly losing matchups on it (Riddles could overestimate Kazuya, of course).

 

[Arthur97]

Not sure if you've missed it but a lot of people want Kazuya banned as well. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they think Kazuya is top 2 (since it would be really silly to ban a character that isn't top 2 unless you have some really good reason for it). Dabuz seems to think Kazuya might be top 2 as well, and some other top players. The character has a surprising amount of depth. Riddles made a MU chart and it only had 4 slightly losing matchups on it (Riddles could overestimate Kazuya, of course).

Would be hard to miss it on this thread. Just doesn't seem as noteworthy. The Kazuya ban talk seems more about design, and frankly, not liking fighting him. I'm not sure there's anything about Kazuya or his inclusion I like, but game breaking? Frustrating, sure, but number 2 is quite a claim for someone whose results are pretty in line with others.

As for Riddles, again, he's clearly the best with him, and subconscious bias can play a factor. Like, he may win those matchups, but does Kazuya? He seems largely relegated to secondary status. He doesn't seem to be anywhere near a world breaker no matter how frustrating to fight and potentially poorly designed he may be.

 

[Aligo]

Not sure if you've missed it but a lot of people want Kazuya banned as well. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they think Kazuya is top 2 (since it would be really silly to ban a character that isn't top 2 unless you have some really good reason for it). Dabuz seems to think Kazuya might be top 2 as well, and some other top players. The character has a surprising amount of depth. Riddles made a MU chart and it only had 4 slightly losing matchups on it (Riddles could overestimate Kazuya, of course).

Yeah, that seems rather suspect to me. Kazuya has multiple terrible matchups and can be counterpicked by stage. He also can't do much about passive play either. He is not well designed by any means but I don't believe he is in the top 5. I still remember the pained tweets riddles made in the first 6 months or so of him playing kazuya, the man sounded super depressed. I doubt most people are willing to go through that much hardship for the sake of winning.

In fact I have witnessed with my own eyes all the happiness leave a kazuya player's body upon seeing their next set was against dark samus.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Frustrating, sure, but number 2 is quite a claim for someone whose results are pretty in line with others.

This raises an interesting question: Then who is #2? If results are what sets them apart, I suppose we should look at the top 5 characters on OrionStats: Steve, ROB, Aegis, Palutena, Snake. If we assume that Steve is #1, then that leaves the other four. I haven't seen many people say Palutena or Snake lately, so... ROB #2?

If we go a bit further back, we have Wolf, Roy, and Samus. None of them seem like very likely #2 contenders. Joker is at #9, but if Kazuya is held back by results, shouldn't Joker be as well? Alternatively, it is Aegis, although many people now believe that Aegis is falling off.

The Kazuya ban talk seems more about design, and frankly, not liking fighting him.

The Smash community has a fairly questionable track record when it comes to ban discussions. These are not good reasons for wanting to ban a character (although I'm not entirely sure people genuinely want to ban Kazuya, it kind of feels like a meme, then again, so does banning Steve at times, although some people are certainly serious). I feel like a good amount of people that are serious about a Steve ban want him banned because they dislike his design, not because he's gamebreakingly overpowered.

Kazuya has multiple terrible matchups and can be counterpicked by stage.

I think most of those matchups aren't that bad since Kazuya can do Kazuya things and still win. As for stages, the current NA stagelist tends to benefit Steve and Kazuya so that's another issue. Getting rid of Yoshi's Story and Lylat Cruise while keeping Final Destination and Kalos is quite good for both Steve and Kazuya.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Umm can you say the Aegis are falling off?As mentioned unlike say Steve or Kazuya what makes them strong is that they just play Smash super well with many strengths and abilities that make up a Top-Tier in Smash and can be played well enough going by fundamentals. But also that means they were much easier to figure out and thier potential likey peaked pretty soon after they came out .




. Players have seems to have developed counterplay against them and learned how to exploit them offstage where they are most vulnerable but that really does not take too much away from how good they are at everything else

As for why they are dropping off. It seems just a matter of player preference. MKLeo and Sparg0 seem to just like playing Byleth and Cloud respectively and only seem to use Ageis against Matchups those characters can struggle with.

Shuton essentially co mains them with Olimar and the notable Solo Cosmos results are extremely inconsistent. I think Sparg0 actually said that the Aegis despite being having a pretty simple and straightforward playstyle can be surprisingly mentally taxing and stressful to play in repeated sets in long top-level tournaments. I guess it does have to do with thier poor recoveries. I guess they get hit once offstage with no jump they are dead no matter what percent they are .

So yeah I Prerty sure they are not #1 or even #2 now, but I still can see them be lower than Top 5 unless we REALLY see them drop off

 

[Arthur97]

This raises an interesting question: Then who is #2? If results are what sets them apart, I suppose we should look at the top 5 characters on OrionStats: Steve, ROB, Aegis, Palutena, Snake. If we assume that Steve is #1, then that leaves the other four. I haven't seen many people say Palutena or Snake lately, so... ROB #2?

If we go a bit further back, we have Wolf, Roy, and Samus. None of them seem like very likely #2 contenders. Joker is at #9, but if Kazuya is held back by results, shouldn't Joker be as well? Alternatively, it is Aegis, although many people now believe that Aegis is falling off.

The Smash community has a fairly questionable track record when it comes to ban discussions. These are not good reasons for wanting to ban a character (although I'm not entirely sure people genuinely want to ban Kazuya, it kind of feels like a meme, then again, so does banning Steve at times, although some people are certainly serious). I feel like a good amount of people that are serious about a Steve ban want him banned because they dislike his design, not because he's gamebreakingly overpowered.

I think most of those matchups aren't that bad since Kazuya can do Kazuya things and still win. As for stages, the current NA stagelist tends to benefit Steve and Kazuya so that's another issue. Getting rid of Yoshi's Story and Lylat Cruise while keeping Final Destination and Kalos is quite good for both Steve and Kazuya.

Well, can you really say the Minecraft crew is number one? Remember, they are generally a uniquely NA threat even with Acola out there, and Acola is a really good player in his own right so you can't chalk that up to purely fighter choice. Also, there is the weird factor, but people may be learning how to fight them better.

And Ultimate is balanced enough that do we have to label them by specific number? Seems general tiers may be about the best you can get generally. Does it matter who is number one or two if five, ten, fifteen, etc. can still win?

Shuton essentially co mains them with Olimar and the notable Solo Cosmos results are extremely inconsistent. I think Sparg0 actually said that the Aegis despite being having a pretty simple and straightforward playstyle can be surprisingly mentally taxing and stressful to play in repeated sets in long top-level tournaments. I guess it does have to do with thier poor recoveries. I guess they get hit once offstage with no jump they are dead no matter what percent they are .

I may have heard that Mythra's neutral may not be as free as people claim and needing decent precision or something to that effect.

 

[blackghost]

idk about kazuya vs samus. but kazuya vs sonic is absolutely miserable. dont think riddles has beaten a single noteworthy sonic.
ive never seen kazuya fight minmin
and tht peach mu looked very doable for peach.

 

[Rocketjay8]

idk about kazuya vs samus. but kazuya vs sonic is absolutely miserable. dont think riddles has beaten a single noteworthy sonic.
ive never seen kazuya fight minmin
and tht peach mu looked very doable for peach.

I think Kazuya vs Samus is bad cause of how much pressure her midrange game causes. Her Weight makes it so that He can't cheese her by killing her early.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

The closest thing I could say to a Kazuya ban is the ban on Wobbling.

A ban that took almost a decade to implement, had plenty of debate in it, and also involved a zero to death. I think given the nature of Kazuya’s ZTD, it would be much harder to try and implement a Kazuya ZTD ban than a wobbling ban.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

If Chrom had a better recovery, would he be the best character in the game?

 

[Aligo]

If Chrom had a better recovery, would he be the best character in the game?

Image chrom with minecart.

 

[NotLiquid]

Kazuya is the only character I can see in Ultimate where the politics of how we play the game makes counterplay a particularly muddy subject.

I’ve never seen an Ultimate character collapse as hard in a competitive set as Kazuya did when Riddles went up against Big D’s Ice Climbers, and several players have suggested this isn’t the only MU where this happens (Min Min perhaps being more relevant in frequency). Kazuya at the end of a bad matchup doesn’t just lose, he explodes. The problem is that factors like stage bans and character counterpick rules is going to prevent a lot of people from truly taking advantage of counterpicking against him considering a lot of Kazuya mains aren’t even full Kazuya mains and can often double back on a backup character. For as strong as Kazuya is, and he may well be top 5, I feel like he could be the one character who might wind up needing a secondary just because of the pure extremity of his hot-and-cold moments. It’s going to depend a lot on whether players will feel compelled to pursue any anti-Kazuya specific picks, which could go either way.

 

[Frihetsanka]

The closest thing I could say to a Kazuya ban is the ban on Wobbling.

A ban that took almost a decade to implement, had plenty of debate in it, and also involved a zero to death. I think given the nature of Kazuya’s ZTD, it would be much harder to try and implement a Kazuya ZTD ban than a wobbling ban.

I think it would be virtually impossible to implement a Kazuya ZTD ban.

Image chrom with minecart.

Losing his side-B would hurt though. Maybe give him Bouncing FIsh or Flip Jump? Losing his counter for a better recovery would be a better trade than losing his side-B. Maybe give him Mach Tornado as well.

I don't think it would make him the best character in the game but it would make him a whole lot stronger, most likely top tier, maybe top 5.

The problem is that factors like stage bans and character counterpick rules is going to prevent a lot of people from truly taking advantage of counterpicking against him considering a lot of Kazuya mains aren’t even full Kazuya mains and can often double back on a backup character.

I feel like switching to character before stage (like most of Europe has done) is a no-brainer at this point. A Kazuya with a Lucina secondary would be near impossible to counter-pick stages versus, as an example. I also think getting rid of Kalos (since we have a lot of similar stages right now and Kalos is the most problematic one) would be a good idea. Adding Lylat would probably be good for balance but likely won't happen due to it being the most disliked legal stage aside from Yoshi's Island.