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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    585

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,202
I saw the weirdest interaction in a tournament last night. :ultike: tried to OoS upB as :ultluigi: tornadoed right by the ledge. Neither took any stun from the armor on both moves but Ike was pushed sideways a good distance while still in his Aether animation off the edge. He shot up then came down into an SD.
You can chalk up that interaction with: Cyclone is jank.

But in real terms, Ike likely got blown off by Cyclone's windboxes, with the armor on both characters allowing the windboxes to come through.
 

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,348
I saw the weirdest interaction in a tournament last night. :ultike: tried to OoS upB as :ultluigi: tornadoed right by the ledge. Neither took any stun from the armor on both moves but Ike was pushed sideways a good distance while still in his Aether animation off the edge. He shot up then came down into an SD.
Luigi's cyclone has a strong windbox.
 

Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
2,240
Location
Sweden
Corrin in top 30 and Sephiroth in top 50 are both very interesting placements. I would argue that Corrin is a tad too high (but maybe I'm underestimating her?) and Sephiroth a tad too low (probably should be in the top 40 tier). Zero Suit Samus in top 50 seems waaaay too low. Some of the top 40 chars seem too low as well, Snake in particular. There are a lot of things that I disagree with here, but props to him for daring to post this.

Edit: Speaking of Corrin, this just dropped:
 
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Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,348
Results for WINNER! -Next Gen-

1. Paseriman :ultfox: :ultwolf:
2. Shuton :ultmythra: :ultolimar:
3. KEN :ultsephiroth: :ultsonic:
4. Akasa :ultcloud: :ultpalutena:
5. Brood :ultpiranha:
5. Across :ultgnw:
7. Umeki :ultdaisy:
7. Abadango :ultsamus::ultpalutena: :ultsephiroth:
9. Akakikusu :ulthero4:
9. chicken :ultdiddy::ultwolf:
9. Taikei :ultsonic:
9. Sunry :ultmythra: :ultzelda:
13. Rinkururu :ultminmin
13. Eim :ultsheik:
13. HIKARU :ultroy: :ultdk: :ultwario:
13. Futari No Kiwami Ah~! :ulticeclimbers:
17. shky :ultzss:
17. Kameme :ultmegaman: :ultsora:
17. Tamakusu :ultshulk:
17. TKM :ultbylethf: :ultdiddy:
17. Wada :ultbowser:
17. yuzu :ultrosalina: :ultminmin
17. yuiton :ultwiifittrainer: :ultmythra:
17. Higusaki :ultwolf:
 
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Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,348
I didn't know KEN uses Sephiroth... interesting considering how different he is to Sonic.
He started playing the character after he lost to Rizeasu's Sephiroth. For a while he was going solo Sephiroth to get better at the character but now he's co-maining :ultsephiroth: and :ultsonic: together. His win with Sephiroth at Sumabato SP 25 is one of the best placements with Sephiroth ever, up there with Ned's 2nd place finishes at InfinityCON Tally 2021 and MSM 240.
 
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Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,348
Initial Seeding for Genesis 8
  1. Mkleo :ultbyleth: :ultcorrinf:
  2. Sparg0 :ultcloud: :ultpyra:
  3. Tweek :ultdiddy:
  4. Light :ultfox:
  5. Dabuz :ultrosalina: :ultalph:
  6. Maister :ultgnw: :ultsora:
  7. Kola :ultroy: :ultcloud:
  8. Cosmos :ultmythra:
  9. Glutonny :ultwario:
  10. ESAM :ultpikachu:
  11. Elegant :ultluigi:
  12. Zomba :ultrob: :ultroy:
  13. Chag :ultpalutena:
  14. LeoN :ultbowser:
  15. MuteAce :ultpeach: :ultpalutena:
  16. Gackt :ultness:
  17. Lui$ :ultpalutena: :ultfox:
  18. Atelier :ultpokemontrainerf::ultwolf:
  19. Lea :ultgreninja:
  20. Riddles :ult_terry:
  21. Goblin :ultroy:
  22. Raflow :ultpalutena:
  23. Marss :ultzss: :ultjoker:
  24. Jake :ultsteve:
  25. Fatality :ultfalcon:
  26. VoiD :ultsheik::ultjoker:
  27. Anathema :ultrob:
  28. BassMage :ultjigglypuff:
  29. Scend :ultness:
  30. sisqui :ultdarksamus:
  31. MVD :ultsnake:
  32. WaDi :ultrob: :ultmewtwo: :ultdarksamus:
 
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Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,348
Results for Keep It REAL: Collegiate

1. Kola :ultroy:
2. DDee :ultenderman: :ultpokemontrainerf:
3. Vendetta :ultken: :ultryu:
4. Teaser :ultsamus:
5. Jahzz0 :ultken:
5. Peabnut :ultmegaman:
7. Sonido :ultsonic:
7. Alting :ultsnake:

Results for Tijuana at War 2022

1. Sparg0 :ultcloud: :ultbylethf:
2. WaKa :ultluigi:
3. AlanDiss :ultsnake:
4. Andrik :ultfalcon:
5. BigBoss :ultrob:
5. Rox :ultsheik: :ultsora: :ultlucina:
7. Leaf :ultpeach: :ultbayonetta: :ultdaisy:
7. Many :ultalex:
9. Nair^ :ultridley:
9. T3 DOM :ultrichter:
9. Pollitopio :ultbowser:
9. Regi Shikimi :ultgnw: :ultpiranha:
13. Bernie :ultlink:
13. Ang :ulttoonlink:
13. CaptainCRUP!!! :ultfalcon:
13. Turtle :ultkazuya:
17. 49 :ultvillager:
17. FuerzaDON :ultshulk:
17. AlexDisC :ultsonic:
17. Quinn :ultpalutena:
17. CK :ultrob:
17. JMV :ultpalutena:
17. Mario :ultroy:
17. Ferolyo :ultzombie:
 
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Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
2,240
Location
Sweden

We're in an interesting part of the meta where MkLeo shows more interest in Corrin than Cosmos does. Although I don't think MkLeo is going to actively keep playing Corrin as a main/prominent secondary for all too long. Maybe she'll be a pocket pick for a handful of matchups?

SHADIC shows great promise though. It wouldn't surprise me at all if SHADIC makes PGR within the next two years. Ly will also get some upsets here and there probably, although he also uses Byleth.
 

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,348
New OrionStats update before four big tournaments in the next upcoming weeks (Genesis 8, Pound, Low Tide City and Kagaribi 7).
 
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Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
2,240
Location
Sweden
Wow, he really put Sephiroth lower than Corrin, huh? The Corrin placement seems reasonable but Sephiroth really that low? Both Cloudy and Tweek seem to have lost most of their faith in the character.

Hero that low, Lucario that high, Kirby that high, Incineroar almost high tier, G&W not top tier also notable. Pikachu outside of top 5, Palutena #2, Roy #3, ROB #4.
 

Arthur97

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
3,463
At least Pika isn't top 5. Though Chrom being that far below Roy seems...odd.

So, are there any fighters people think are just missing a breakout player? With the sheer potential in Ultimate, for all we know there are hidden gems that just don't have the right player to demonstrate what they're capable of.
 

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,348
So, are there any fighters people think are just missing a breakout player? With the sheer potential in Ultimate, for all we know there are hidden gems that just don't have the right player to demonstrate what they're capable of.
Actually, I think Chrom fits that definition. Mr. R is currently inactive, Rivers hasn't played for a while due to dealing with a broken arm and tk3 doesn't travel outside Japan. I think Chrom is really strong and just needs the right player, it's just that most of the right players just play Roy.
 
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Arthur97

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
3,463
Actually, I think Chrom fits that definition. Mr. R is currently inactive, Rivers hasn't played for a while due to dealing with a broken arm and tk3 doesn't travel outside Japan. I think Chrom is really strong and just needs the right player, it's just that most of the right players just play Roy.
Well, the problem of being deemed the inferior version. That said, most can probably agree it is much closer between Roy and Chrom than it is Marth and Lucina. A lot probably also don't want to deal with that recovery. Though, from what I hear, what players he does have are pretty dedicated to figuring out the proper spacing and such for that. Don't get me wrong though, I would love to see him break out. If only they hadn't nerfed Chromicide.
 

Diddy Kong

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Messages
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We're in an interesting part of the meta where MkLeo shows more interest in Corrin than Cosmos does. Although I don't think MkLeo is going to actively keep playing Corrin as a main/prominent secondary for all too long. Maybe she'll be a pocket pick for a handful of matchups?

SHADIC shows great promise though. It wouldn't surprise me at all if SHADIC makes PGR within the next two years. Ly will also get some upsets here and there probably, although he also uses Byleth.
Corrin might simply compliment MK Leo's Byleth for now, a element of surprise pick who's surprisingly good and nobody has real matchup knowledge about. I think during the course of Ultimate's life span, we'll see more of this happening.

Also that Cloudy tier list has Diddy way too low, ignoring how Tweek is putting in major work with the character and how other Diddy's are doing quite well too. Chrom is also way too low.
 

Gleam

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
654
Location
Burlington, NC
G Gleam you can be happy for once. Ridley was put in mid tier.

Oh thank god the world's back to normal!


To be blunt it's easily one of the best lists I've seen so far. And it's mostly because many of the characters, still fall in the lines of what they are actually producing minus a few that I'll get into later. I mean it has :ultdoc: out of Bottom and into Low which is more or less perfect representation of the character. He may not be good, but he still doing better than the Bottom 5 for sure. :ultpikachu: may be still too high, but hey, you didn't shove him as #2 in the "Best of the Best" category. I don't necessarily like :ultdk::ultzelda: in low, but considering their meta has kind of stagnated I can't say they're doing great either.

The most egregious ones on the list are :ultsephiroth::ultmegaman::ultinkling::ultness::ultchrom: imo in Mid Tier. With exception to Chrom who has kind of taken a huge dip, everyone else is easily getting High Tier results and staying within an overall High Tier area. Sephirioth has fallen quite a bit but he's still there and people like Ness are arguably doing better now than they did before. So I"m not sure what the mindset is here.

To me, the idea of putting :ultridley:in "Bottom 10" or :ultsnake: in the Top 40s is similar in saying that Sparg0 is a Bottom 100 player and then trying to name off all the problems Sparg0 has as a player. Maybe there's a grain of truth in those claims but the real truth is, despite whatever flaws Sparg0 may have as a player, he has still fundamentally reached a Top 10 (Top #2 really) status as a professional player.

And just like with the Sparg0 example, whatever flaws Ridley, Snake, Ness, etc. may have, all of them have consistently pushed, not only as individual players but as a community whole, into certain areas. Mid for Ridlley, High/Top for Snake and Ness.

I believe there are two things that players should do when making their list. The first is to look up the data, the placements, the primary players and start placing characters at least in relative placements to what their meta is showing. Even if you don't know about Orion Stats, it's not exactly hard to look up things like character and even player results.

The second is to, evolve with the meta. There's no shame in dropping :ultzss: from Top or Upper High down to Lower High or even Upper Mid. She has fallen considerably. The same has happened with :ultgreninja:and of course :ultincineroar: went from a Bottom 10 character to a borderline high tier monster and has gained the results to prove it. Let your lists evolve. If you think these characters are better or worse than what is being shown, then let that be proven on the field, not necessarily as your theories. Because this meta isn't stagnant nor do I think these lists or placements should be stagnant.
 

NairWizard

Somewhere
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Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,933
I feel like tier lists and people's responses to them are ridiculous lately. What makes a tier list good to someone seems to be how closely the list matches results + the personal opinion of the evaluator.

You have orionrank for results and you know your personal opinion already. What's the value in judging someone else's tier list on those criteria?
 

Arthur97

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
3,463
Well, yeah, these tier lists are largely pointless save for the impact it has on people that just believe them even if there are some glaring issues. But, yes, I do take issue putting results poor Pikachu in the top two. It's just ridiculous at this point. Surely by now there would be significant evidence, but nope.
 

Aaron1997

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 29, 2014
Messages
708
Location
Arkansas
NNID
Aaron1318






Well, this is kind of a big deal.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,202






Well, this is kind of a big deal.
That is actually pretty neat. Does make me wonder if this was possible with Brawl or PM Snake as well (probably not as well for the former cause of the 9 frame jumpsquat, but you get the idea).
 
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Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,348
Results for Genesis 8 pre-local

1. Jake :ultsteve:
2. Riddles :ult_terry: :ultkazuya:
3. spot :ultsteve:
4. moxi :ultwolf:
5. Ogey :ultfalcon:
5. Justice :ultminmin
7. NaetorU :ultpichu:
7. sisqui :ultdarksamus:
9. Chase :ultpalutena:
9. SPARKLE :ulthero:
9. Goblin :ultroy:
9. Kurama :ultmario:
13. Scend :ultness: :ultpiranha:
13. JoJoDaHoBo :ulttoonlink:
13. AndresFN :ultken: :ultryu:
13. Oryon :ultwolf:
17. H.3.K :ultswordfighter: :ultrob:
17. Klaatu :ultolimar:
17. Zen :ultpikachu:
17. TriM :ultmegaman:
17. Mind :ultluigi:
17. Lancelot :ultchrom:
17. Raflow :ultpalutena:
17. Stark :ultike:
 

Aaron1997

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 29, 2014
Messages
708
Location
Arkansas
NNID
Aaron1318



More Advanced tech goodness.
 

Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
2,240
Location
Sweden
Now that some time has passed, do people here still think Pyra/Mythra is overrated? In order to avoid too much vagueness, let's say overrated is "not top 3", and not overrated is top 3. Is Pyra/Mythra top 3, or not?
 

Diddy Kong

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
25,968
Switch FC
SW-1597-979602774
Now that some time has passed, do people here still think Pyra/Mythra is overrated? In order to avoid too much vagueness, let's say overrated is "not top 3", and not overrated is top 3. Is Pyra/Mythra top 3, or not?
They definitely are, still seems like the absolute best characters to me overall. Just not so extremely obvious as with previous Top Tiers.
 

Garo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 26, 2014
Messages
301
NNID
Garomasta
3DS FC
3308-4572-3157



More Advanced tech goodness.
I'm not one to usually take interest in advanced tech, but this looks really cool and makes me want to learn it, even though I don't play :ultrobin: that often.
 

NairWizard

Somewhere
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,933
Now that some time has passed, do people here still think Pyra/Mythra is overrated? In order to avoid too much vagueness, let's say overrated is "not top 3", and not overrated is top 3. Is Pyra/Mythra top 3, or not?
Not in the current top-level meta imo, no. But instead of my analysis, I'll defer to someone actually playing at that level.

Leo and Gluto were talking about this on stream, and Leo was saying that he thinks they're not even as strong as Wario in the current meta. Leo said, "There's a reason both sparg0 and I dropped them. They just aren't as good."

As a bonus, both Leo and Gluto were speaking favorably of Wario, saying that Wario should theoretically beat all of Leo's non-Joker characters (including Corrin; Leo's Corrin was losing most friendlies as Gluto got used to the matchup) and that Wario is particularly strong in today's meta.

I suspect that this trend won't last though; Cosmos will do well again, Shuton will continue to do well, and sparg0 will eventually transition from solo Cloud to Cloud/Aegis again, at which point Aegis will catch up to current top-level meta trends and excel again.

Just a strange character overall, they seem to have periods where they seem completely figured out and periods where they seem utterly dominant in a way that I haven't seen another smash character replicate. That's the power of the Aegis, I guess.
 

Arthur97

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
3,463
Not in the current top-level meta imo, no. But instead of my analysis, I'll defer to someone actually playing at that level.

Leo and Gluto were talking about this on stream, and Leo was saying that he thinks they're not even as strong as Wario in the current meta. Leo said, "There's a reason both sparg0 and I dropped them. They just aren't as good."

As a bonus, both Leo and Gluto were speaking favorably of Wario, saying that Wario should theoretically beat all of Leo's non-Joker characters (including Corrin; Leo's Corrin was losing most friendlies as Gluto got used to the matchup) and that Wario is particularly strong in today's meta.

I suspect that this trend won't last though; Cosmos will do well again, Shuton will continue to do well, and sparg0 will eventually transition from solo Cloud to Cloud/Aegis again, at which point Aegis will catch up to current top-level meta trends and excel again.

Just a strange character overall, they seem to have periods where they seem completely figured out and periods where they seem utterly dominant in a way that I haven't seen another smash character replicate. That's the power of the Aegis, I guess.
I wouldn't guarantee Sparg0 goes back to them. He really seems to like Cloud, and that can be a powerful element.

And when it comes to a game of adaptation, I'm not sure that's good for them in the end. They aren't as overtuned as Smash 4 Cloud, and their simplicity was one of the selling points. That simplicity may make it hard for them to keep up in a play/counterplay arms race.
 

superjm

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 23, 2022
Messages
88
Now that some time has passed, do people here still think Pyra/Mythra is overrated? In order to avoid too much vagueness, let's say overrated is "not top 3", and not overrated is top 3. Is Pyra/Mythra top 3, or not?
I think they're top 1 with their only real rival being Joker.

You can say they're "not top 3" but then you have to justify others filling those spots and you would have a pretty tough time doing so.
 

Diddy Kong

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I think they're top 1 with their only real rival being Joker.

You can say they're "not top 3" but then you have to justify others filling those spots and you would have a pretty tough time doing so.
I'm not sure why people keep insisting Joker is all that, it's like the whole Pikachu situation except Pikachu is actually being played by top players.

No top players playing ZSS is the reason she fell off, but why exactly is Joker excused?

Joker = busted is the new Pikachu = busted.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,907
Location
Colorado
I'm not sure why people keep insisting Joker is all that, it's like the whole Pikachu situation except Pikachu is actually being played by top players.

No top players playing ZSS is the reason she fell off, but why exactly is Joker excused?

Joker = busted is the new Pikachu = busted.
Except Joker's still top 10 in terms of results and Pika's waaaaay down at 33rd on Orion stats. Take that with a grain of salt though. Ultimate is in a weird state where certain characters like ROB are extremely popular but don't get as high of results as characters like Aegis.
 

Nah

Smash Champion
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
2,163



More Advanced tech goodness.
This was a thing in Smash 4 too, though the thing here is that since you can angle Elwind to some degree in Ultimate, you can use it at other spacings than "in your opponent's face".

It's not gonna catch on though, Robin has never been a highly popular or meta character, nevermind that, as the person says more than once and as it was in Smash 4, it's not easy to do.
 

Arthur97

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
3,463
I'm not sure why people keep insisting Joker is all that, it's like the whole Pikachu situation except Pikachu is actually being played by top players.

No top players playing ZSS is the reason she fell off, but why exactly is Joker excused?

Joker = busted is the new Pikachu = busted.
Does Pikachu have any top reps other than ESAM? And lets not forget how inconsistent he is. Now, I do agree Joker has fallen off some, but that tends to be the way of Ultimate it seems. There's a flash of results before they come back down more in line with more normal results.

Of course, as I've said before, best in the game and even top 3 is such a nebulous term in Ultimate, it's hard to really say who they are. Tiers just don't have the same power they may have had in the past games due to everyone being so much closer together.
 

superjm

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 23, 2022
Messages
88
I'm not sure why people keep insisting Joker is all that, it's like the whole Pikachu situation except Pikachu is actually being played by top players.

No top players playing ZSS is the reason she fell off, but why exactly is Joker excused?

Joker = busted is the new Pikachu = busted.
The problem with Pikachu isn't just that he isn't being played now, it's that he never was.

We've already seen first hand what Joker is capable of and how oppressive his tools are. His results and representation are still solid if not at its peak and even if we're talking recent displays of the character, need I remind you of zackray's utterly dominant loser's bracket run at Kagaribi once he switched away from Sheik?
 
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