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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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SKX31

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His results hasn't been very consistent as of late, but there was a time era where he was getting amazing results with solo Duck Hunt.

During most of 2019, he was getting consistent high placements at major events, chief among-them was a 5th placement at EVO 2019. He ended up being ranked as 20th on the Spring 2019 PGRU and 17th on the Fall 2019 PGRU. There was a time period were Duck Hunt was considered much more highly than they are now.

This momentum doesn't seem to be kept in the post-quarantine era though.
Might be partly because he only participated in one tournament - Eastern Powerhouse Invitational - between May 2020 and March 2021, but I'm not going to blame him for that when most Japanese in-person tournaments were rather sporadic due to the states of emergency. Likewise, Abadango only participated in that very same tournament during that span.

While I'm not entirely sure on B-K's viability (to summarize my thoughts: the duo could be very much underrated, but their inconsistencies and the risk of being outdamaged has me a bit cautious), switching to something simpler might be what Raito needs considering the stress. Besides, they have some very interesting shenaningas they could pull off and could potentially do decently-to-well vs. a number of characters that DH might struggle vs. While I'd consider B-K more akin to say the Pits, their similarities to DH might fight Raito's style very well.

While I didn't get to see much of his sets at WINNER! 4, he did beat Hikaru 2-1 and Shky 2-1 before being 2-0'd by Shuton and the red-hot Umeki (who himself was on a 6 set long LB win streak incl. Takera, Kameme and Hikaru before meeting Raito). I should also note that Hikaru (14th) and Shky (19th) are seeded above Raito (29th) at Kagaribi 5, so there's quite a lot of potential upside here. Then again, Japan's scene is extremely volatile and Kagaribi will be a major test for him right from the get go: he's seeded to fight Ly (:ultcorrin: / :ultbyleth: ) and assuming he takes that he'll face Hero (:ultbowser:) . So in the end, this could turn out really well for him, but it's not going to be easy.
 
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Das Koopa

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A preamble on ROB

I recently managed to complete a monthly spread of results from April 2020 to the Present. Some areas were merged (April 2020-April 2021, May/June 2021, then single months onwards) but the gist was to show a map of how character progression went. Prior to this year, I just saved a text capture of the end of each month, but I forgot and had to do the legwork from the last year or so.

I'm doing a lot of stuff & I'm fairly busy but I thought I'd talk about ROB - especially since I think the character hasn't been super well communicated in terms of his results. ROB has consistently been #1 on high data entry sheets since early 2020. After talking with a fellow seeder, I believe the reason is simple - the character isn't dominant, he's simply popular, and this really highlights a need for the stuff I'm doing regarding deeper results analysis.

Interpreting results is a game that's really hard when your expectations are really challenged. I've commented this on various sites where I'm active, but Smash 4 was not much better than Brawl in terms of balancing, so the upper echelon stayed very stable. Once people picked up top tiers - even after nerfs - they found little reason to consider dropping them, because there was a stratification that was embedded with how truly awful the game's first year was in terms of character diversity.

Ultimate - which uses the same scaling for results - doesn't play as well. I may rework the points system to make more blatant flaws less able to bias results, but obvious ones that come to mind are scaling that makes two 33rds at a Category 5 equal to a first placing at a Category 4. This isn't necessarily bad - it just values repetition, which can be valuable at identifying meta threats, but Ultimate has introduced a new caveat that characters who are popular do not necessary equal frequent top 8ers or frequent top 4ers. This was NOT the case in Brawl/Sm4sh.

Point hauls advantage popular characters within a rough top 250-1 frame. This is still way more useful than raw data that hasn't been curated for removing junk, but it has serious flaws if we're talking about discounting characters or crediting them as #1.

Beyond point hauls, the most obvious discrepancy is the fact that most ROB players do not achieve top 8s despite their usage. Zackray is by far the best ROB - it's not even close - and yet he does not, and never has, solo mained the character. The tendency to craft an arsenal of good characters has been true for Zackray as far back as his beginnings, when he used Bayonetta/Corrin/Marth in Smash 4.

Riptide is a fun microcosm of ROB dominating point hauls but not getting that far, relatively speaking. He's really popular, and can garner 6-10% of point hauls at a major without Top 8ing an event. This is true of Riptide, as an example, where the ROB main that got the farthest is now banned FL player Epic_Gabriel. Not only will his banning substantially decline ROB's meta, it's already pretty flimsy as a #1. Now it's doomed to decline, as the character's best mains abroad have all contributed to this, while two won't as much - WaDi, who now may be more of a Mewtwo main, and the aforementioned banned Epic Gabriel.

Basically, there's a grain of salt to using these results I post to find a definitive #1, as it doesn't value peaks as much as it does repetition. While a common argument against Bayonetta was her difficulties winning majors, ROB is not a top 8 insurgent at most major events like Bayonetta was in 4. I don't think these two characters are largely being compared, fwiw, but it's worth noting ROB's upper caps are a lot softer.

I'll be going way more in depth on this soon, but I think the character has reached its limits at most major events, and that his steady #1 lead is fragile under the weight of other ways of results analysis.
 

Cheryl~

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top 8 of Kagaribi 5:

winners side
Kome :ultshulk: vs. Atelier :ultpokemontrainer::ultwolf:
Shuton :ultolimar::ultpyra::ultmythra: vs. Zackray :ultsora:

Losers side
ProtoBanHam :ultminmin:ultlucina: vs. Etsuji :ultdiddy:
Tea:ultpacman::ultkazuya: vs. Yoshidora :ultyoshi:

notably, Kome took out ProtoBanHam (1st seed of the tourney) in winners quarters 3-1, and Zackray has cruised his way comfortably into winners side top 8 with solo Sora, beating Choco, shky, and KEN with the new character. Genuinely, I don't know how he did it with Sora alone, but Zackray's just THAT good.
 

SKX31

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top 8 of Kagaribi 5:

winners side
Kome :ultshulk: vs. Atelier :ultpokemontrainer::ultwolf:
Shuton :ultolimar::ultpyra::ultmythra: vs. Zackray :ultsora:

Losers side
ProtoBanHam :ultminmin:ultlucina: vs. Etsuji :ultdiddy:
Tea:ultpacman::ultkazuya: vs. Yoshidora :ultyoshi:

notably, Kome took out ProtoBanHam (1st seed of the tourney) in winners quarters 3-1, and Zackray has cruised his way comfortably into winners side top 8 with solo Sora, beating Choco, shky, and KEN with the new character. Genuinely, I don't know how he did it with Sora alone, but Zackray's just THAT good.
And the results (top 16):

1st. Zackray :ultsora:
2nd. Shuton :ultolimar: :ultpyra: / :ultmythra:
3rd. Kome :ultshulk:
4th. Atelier :ultpokemontrainer: :ultwolf:
5th. Protobanham :ultminmin :ultlucina:
5th. Yoshidora :ultyoshi:
7th. Etsuji :ultdiddy:
7th. Tea :ultpacman::ultkazuya:
9th. KEN :ultsonic:
9th. Raito :ultbanjokazooie: :ultduckhunt:
9th. Repo :ultmegaman:
9th. Yaura :ultdarksamus:
13th. Higusaki :ultwolf:
13th. Sigma :ulttoonlink:
13th. Shky :ultzss:
13th. Kishiru :ultpikachu:

Some notes:

* Zackray finished the bracket with three straight 3-2 wins vs. Shuton (twice) and Kome. Talk about nerves of steel.

* Feels like the result overall does shake up the general conversation, not just since Zackray took this going solo Sora (making him the second FP2 character to take a supermajor after Proto's Min Min), but also since several players came out of this looking really good. Kome's the standout example, seeded 9th and finishing 3rd after defeating Eim, Munekin, Proto and Atelier.

* Some notable LB runs include Yoshidora's (8 straight set wins after taking the L to Munekin in pools, beating Umeki, Kishiru, KEN and Tea before falling to Atelier) as well as Raito's (who went on a 6 set winstreak after losing to Ly before falling just short of top 8 at the hands of Tea - besting Choco, Hikaru and Munekin in the process).
 
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BlazGreen

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Is this the fastest a DLC character has won a major since their release? Also I find it refreshing that we got a top 16 with no :ultrob: and :ultroy: in sight.
 
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Hydreigonfan01

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Is this the fastest a DLC character has won a major since their release? Also I find it refreshing that we got a top 16 with no :ultrob: and :ultroy: in sight.
Depends, do you count Frostbite 2020 as :ultbyleth: winning a super major? That was a common thing to say at the time.
 

Nekoo

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I think what Help Sora's growth is that, unlike 95% of FP 2, Sora released exactly when Offline tournaments are actively starting.
Minmin, Aegis, Kazuya, Sephiroth, Steve had for them one or two offlines tournaments, with Minmin and Aegis dominating Onlines during Pandemic times, and people consider their lack of results as them struggling, when in reality, we basically just entered for real the "Fighter pass 2 Meta"
 
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Hydreigonfan01

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Not sure what to take of Sora winning a supermajor 2 weeks after his debut. I think the character is rather strong, especially when gimping or edgeguarding opponents offstage but Zackray is on par with Leo and Tweek when it comes to "picking up a new character and bodying people with them" and there was no other Sora which approached top 8, with Lea getting 25th.
 

Nekoo

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Not sure what to take of Sora winning a supermajor 2 weeks after his debut. I think the character is rather strong, especially when gimping or edgeguarding opponents offstage but Zackray is on par with Leo and Tweek when it comes to "picking up a new character and bodying people with them" and there was no other Sora which approached top 8, with Lea getting 25th.
I mean, that's also basically the same for Joker
Either Leo win a tournament/Major with him, or the next one is top25/33 more than half of the time, and doing like more than half of the Point for Joker by himself in the Orionstats
When it's Joker, we put him Top 1 , when it's Byleth taking games and supermajor, it's just Leo's skills and Byleth being a mid-tier character
I'm not sure how we're really supposed to take characters performance anymore, with characters like Byleth/Pikachu having one player wonders, and others character being ultra-widespread, ranking high but failing to win a tournament
 

Iron Maw

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Eh I don't like how often SB often defaults to "x" top player was carrying "x" character to downplay the potential of said character whenever they win a big tournament and beats expectations. Especially in the case of a new one like Sora. No wining something like this does not mean his weakness are nonexistent, only that aren't nearly as much detriment to him succeeding in the meta. Besides its not like everything single top 10 character does not have some kind of significant drawback (i.e Fox=recovery), they just have powerful mitigating factors that allow to deal with those issues. Sora is much the same to me, not that I am saying he's top-tier or anything. I think its way to early be talking that for him or any of FP2 characters at his point, but no way is he going to be bad.

Also think Byleth has been better than people have been giving credit for. There is nothing wrong with re-evaluating characters as the meta continues to grow. You can make as many excuses for Sora and Byleth beating the polished characters of other top players, but doesn't change the fact they did. At one point you might have to admit that you might have been wrong about those charavters on a whole.
 
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Nobie

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The way that Sora straight-up counters all the safe yet predictable ledge-snap recoveries is a game changer. Think about how many characters in top tier we have who fit that bill.

If Sora continues to do well, he might singlehandedly reshape the meta in a way few characters ever could. I could see Byleth's Up-B shenanigans being an issue for him.

On a different note, it's funny to see Raito instantly do better after relegating Duck Hunt to secondary. That said, Duck Hunt might actually do better against Sora (Frame 1 can, no Wonderwing to get Countered).
 

Arthur97

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Yes, tier lists seem far less important than they've ever been in Smash. Most fighters can do reasonably well in the right hands, and the title of best in this game is unlikely to mean as much as it has in the last two or even three as it likely won't be by that wide of a margin if it can ever be generally agreed upon in the first place. At best, general tiers may work, but ordering them within may get iffy and even then, how big of a difference is there between tiers anymore? Clearly, there is a difference, but does it matter as much anymore?
 

Nekoo

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Yes, tier lists seem far less important than they've ever been in Smash. Most fighters can do reasonably well in the right hands, and the title of best in this game is unlikely to mean as much as it has in the last two or even three as it likely won't be by that wide of a margin if it can ever be generally agreed upon in the first place. At best, general tiers may work, but ordering them within may get iffy and even then, how big of a difference is there between tiers anymore? Clearly, there is a difference, but does it matter as much anymore?
Basically.
Like, yeah, there a difference from Joker to Ganon.
But the disparity is much much much compact, compared to others games, and there's no MK/Bayo/Cloud situation in this game at all.
 

BlazGreen

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With enough skill and bracket luck you could win a major with over 1/3 of the cast and even that might be lowballing it. Tiers should only really reflect how little bracket luck you need rather than how strong each character is in a vacuum.
 

The_Bookworm

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I think the whole "one-player carrying a character correlates to player-skill and not the character" thing really correlates only to the context around the character.

For :ultjoker:, between the month of release and MkLeo dominating the month after release, there was a multitude of factors in play.
  1. Arsene was already recognized as very strong, but people didn't think Joker by himself was not all that great, likely due to the lack of seemingly absurd options. It also doesn't help that he was often compared to Sheik, who was very lowly viewed at that time. MkLeo proved that Joker is indeed strong even without Arsene, and that Gun is frankly an absurd tool, especially pre-7.0.0 downwards Guns.
  2. Joker was released only 4 months after the game came out, which is still very early in Ultimate's lifespan. We still didn't have the full picture on what made a character strong or not in this game. Look where characters like Pichu or Inkling is now in comparison to back then.
  3. Even when MkLeo started to dominate tournaments, it was still before patch 3.1.0 would nerf some the early meta superstars like Olimar, Pichu, Peach, and Wolf, so all eyes were still on them. Once they got nerfed over a month after Joker's release, all eyes were off of them (or at least on Olimar and Pichu), which cleared the way for Joker to rise up to the rankings uncontested.
We also need to know about impact on the one-man army player as well.
What happened when MkLeo started dominating tournaments?
Well the answer is simple: Joker then became a very popular character in tournaments. Not R.O.B./Roy levels, but still very popular. While no one reaches the level of MkLeo (in which barely anyone has), new Joker players has achieved very potent success in all levels of play. There is a reason why Joker is #7 in this season's OrionRank, and ranked even higher in pre-quarantine seasons.
If it is only MkLeo getting success with Joker, then his rankings would be comparable to where Byleth is currently (maybe even lower since Leo has been very Byleth focused lately).


:ultbyleth: also had unique circumstances as well.
  1. Byleth wasn't seen as a good character even as far back as the character showcase back at December 2019. Even the most pessimistic views of Joker when he first came out viewed him as mid tier at worst. In comparison, Byleth was considered by most to be mid tier at BEST, and more often than not, low tier. Byleth emerged as an underdog when it comes to public perception.
  2. However, he also came out less than 2 months before quarantine happened, meaning that this is another stop sign to this character's development. While this is also the case for Min Min, Steve, Sephiroth, and the Aegis, being released DURING the quarantine era, those bunch of characters are more overall warmly received at launch, especially the latter two. The only time we get to see Byleth develop before quarantine was when MkLeo was using him in Mexico locals, and when he used the character to slap Maister at the final game of Frostbite 2020 grand finals, which was more of a disrespect slap.
  3. The character eventually found some success online thanks to MkLeo and Pelupelu. However, due to the stigma around online, it wasn't really minded too much, until MkLeo started winning tournaments with primarily Byleth when offline returned.
The biggest comparison is the impact.
While a whole generation of Joker players spawned thanks to MkLeo's dominance with him... Byleth barely has anyone playing him.
As a matter of fact, Byleth has one of the driest/bleakest high level playerbases in the entire game, even in comparison to other DLC characters. Pelupelu is only other real notable high level user of Byleth, but he is purely an online warrior, plus he hasn't participated in any tournaments in a long time.

While MkLeo's success with the character definitely shows off that the character is underestimated, without much success from the nearly non-existent rest of the playerbase, the character isn't going to rise as high as you would think.
 

The_Bookworm

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I didn't notice until I looked at the actual bracket, but we got some other nasty upsets today.

Chronos:ultsnake: 3-2 Kola:ultroy:
Lui$:ultpalutena::ultfox: 3-2 Kola:ultroy: (out at 17th)
Mystery Sol:ultincineroar: 3-2 Javi:ultlucina:
Shoe:ultzss: 2-0 Myran:ultolimar:

Pool X1 has barely started, so we might get more.

Edit:
Annnnd I was right. Skyjay :ultincineroar: 3-2 Elegant:ultluigi:
Mystery Sol:ultincineroar: is out at 9th place, getting completely obliterated by Lui$:ultpalutena:. Regardless, Incineroar players are eating great tonight.

Kurama:ultmario: 0-3 BassMage:ultjigglypuff:
What even are tier lists anymore?
 
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SapphSabre777

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Lots of good things for a lot of low tiers out there.

:ultincineroar:got nice buffs, but the big thing that has propelled the fire cat is that the representation for them has exploded. Combine that with good wins over top players and this is the best scenario that Incin mains could ask for. The general consensus for the character should rise quite a bit.

:ultjigglypuff: is also riding the buff and appearance train in the form of BassMage and the 13.0.0 patch. And it is consistent to boot. A lot of players have been mentioning that, despite having a kryptonite to swords, has ascended a bit in the tier lists. Puff mains are only going to become more prominent as time goes on.

:ultkirby: had a week that was OK, but might've axed him quite a bit. Double representation and double 49th at majors, with Kagaribi having a good upset. Ordinarily, this would be a life-giver; however, he still holds worse results than :ultganondorf:, :ultlittlemac:, :ultjigglypuff:, and now :ultincineroar:, with three of the four being considered lower tier than him. I have to wonder if Kirby will drop to the low or even bottom-tier doldrums as a result of comparative analysis? I'm unsure, but Kirby's lack of representation is now starting to nail his hopes.
 
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The_Bookworm

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ianology:ultsteve: 3-0 Kurama:ultmario:, eliminating him at 25th. This is Dark Wizzy's time to shine for the "best Mario" title.

ianology then lost to Elegant:ultluigi: afterwards, who is now about to have his 3rd set vs Tweek:ultdiddy:.
 
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Ziodyne 21

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Funny thing, despite all these upsets and surprise character results like Inceneroar and Puff. There is Still a R.O.B and 2 Palu's that got into Top 8

The more things change...amirite?


Btw Tweek :ultdiddy: 3-2 Bassmage :ultjigglypuff:in one nail-eating intense close set. BassMase run was still amazing. Hopefully he can continue to do well with the buffed-puff.

Also great :ultincineroar: resutls with Skyjay placing at 13th and MysterySol at 9th
 
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Hydreigonfan01

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Not actually an upset but BassMage came super close to beating Tweek. I think Puff is pretty good in the right hands and I think this might be her second best incarnation so far?
 

NotLiquid

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Tweek vs BassMage's set is probably one of the secretly biggest Ultimate litmus tests in "proving a point". The potential excitement of a Jigglypuff securing top 8 by taking a set from one of this game's best players was pretty counterbalanced by the excitement of seeing Tweek pilot his way through what feels like an absolutely infuriating matchup for Diddy Kong, even when Tweek could've dug into his deep pocket of secondaries. Despite the fact that the character is commonly considered a high tier contender these days, this was a fun reminder of how certain characters at a higher level crumble to some very idiosyncratic things; which is somewhat refreshing in a sense when these days top tier matchup knowledge comes across as so uniform.

It reminds me a bit of how Min Min is considered to have a pretty bad matchup against Sheik, even though you'll rarely see other top tiers say they share that same specific problem.
 
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The_Bookworm

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Top 8


Winner's
MkLeo:ultbyleth: vs BigBoss:ultrob:
LeoN:ultbowser: vs Sparg0:ultmythra::ultcloud:


Loser's
Chag :ultpalutena: vs Tweek:ultdiddy:
Dark Wizzy:ultmario: vs Lui$:ultpalutena::ultfox:


I was half-expecting Tweek to go :ultsephiroth: vs BassMage, but I guess the Dark Wizzy set has shaken up his faith on his Sephiroth to do well.

Either way, rather tame looking top 8 for such as chaotic top 16.
 
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Ziodyne 21

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Top 8


Winner's
MkLeo:ultbyleth: vs BigBoss:ultrob:
LeoN:ultbowser: vs Sparg0:ultmythra::ultcloud:


Loser's
Chag :ultpalutena: vs Tweek:ultdiddy:
Dark Wizzy:ultmario: vs Lui$:ultpalutena::ultfox:


I was half-expecting Tweek to go :ultsephiroth: vs BassMage, but I guess the Dark Wizzy set has shaken up his faith on his Sephiroth to do well.

You know..despite all these talks about big meta changes and charactere considered ince bad now dong very well. There a R.O.B and 2 Palu's that got into top 8. It looks like the old guard is still standing for now.


But in all seriousness we got some great resutls fir both :ultincineroar: and :ultjigglypuff: this tourament. Those buffs seemed to have made a world of difference
 
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Frihetsanka

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The potential excitement of a Jigglypuff securing top 8 by taking a set from one of this game's best players was pretty counterbalanced by the excitement of seeing Tweek pilot his way through what feels like an absolutely infuriating matchup for Diddy Kong, even when Tweek could've dug into his deep pocket of secondarie
As far as I know, many Diddy Kong mains (including Tweek) think it's a very good MUs for Diddy Kong, and BassMage himself put it as a Slight Loss for Jigglypuff (only Lucina, Yoshi, and Sonic being hard losses, and Tweek doesn't play any of them in tournaments as far as I know). So it makes sense for Tweek to go Diddy Kong, given that he thinks it's a very good MU for Diddy.

Fun to see Tweek's Sephiroth again, I wonder if he's going to bring him out more or if it was just a last effort attempt vs Dark Wizzy?

Of course, these MU charts were prior to the Jigglypuff buffs, although I wonder if the buffs would be enough to move Diddy to Even? Probably not.
 
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Aaron1997

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On a different note, it's funny to see Raito instantly do better after relegating Duck Hunt to secondary. That said, Duck Hunt might actually do better against Sora (Frame 1 can, no Wonderwing to get Countered).

Actually I think Raito went back to DH for his losers run. Don't know for sure but imo I don't think he could pull off that losers run with Banjo. Raito's DH has always had this X-factor that his Banjo doesn't have. Watch game 4 vs LY for a good example.

The can/Weight nerfs/changes from smash 4 -> Ultimate was actually a big nerf to their Disadavantge. In Smash 4 he was deceptively heavy and ledge trapping was difficult without massive disjoints with frame 1 can trades sending them back towards the stage allowing you reset Neutral. With their Top tier Neutral the odds were in their favor. Now they can't cheat disadavantge like they could sometimes with can sending them back offstage. The one thing they are better at in this game is they are more explosive. They **** out damage in this game. This creates a extremely volatile character. They are zoner Sheik but trades disadvantge for damage output.
 
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Ziodyne 21

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Top 8


Winner's
MkLeo:ultbyleth: vs BigBoss:ultrob:
LeoN:ultbowser: vs Sparg0:ultmythra::ultcloud:


Loser's
Chag :ultpalutena: vs Tweek:ultdiddy:
Dark Wizzy:ultmario: vs Lui$:ultpalutena::ultfox:


I was half-expecting Tweek to go :ultsephiroth: vs BassMage, but I guess the Dark Wizzy set has shaken up his faith on his Sephiroth to do well.

Either way, rather tame looking top 8 for such as chaotic top 16.


We there are still some things of note his Top 8. Like Dark Wizzy making it and getting the results after starting off the post-pandemic offline in a rough way. Also I think this is. BigBoss first Top8 placing at a Major. Also cannot ignore LeoN's crazy run
 

The_Bookworm

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Port Priority 6

1st: MkLeo:ultbyleth:
2nd: Sparg0:ultpyra::ultcloud:
3rd: Tweek:ultdiddy:
4th: BigBoss:ultrob:
5th: LeoN:ultbowser:
5th: Lui$:ultpalutena:
7th: Dark Wizzy:ultmario:
7th: Chag:ultpalutena:
9th: Ned:ultsephiroth:
9th: BassMage:ultjigglypuff:
9th: Mystery Sol:ultincineroar:
9th: TonyZTank:ultsonic:

13th: Skyjay:ultincineroar:
13th: Fatality:ultfalcon:
13th: Scend:ultness:
13th: Chronos:ultsnake:

17th: Enarmonia:ultrobin:
17th: Myran:ultolimar:
17th: Shoe:ultzss::ultmario:
17th: Elegant:ultluigi:
17th: Kola:ultroy:
17th: MVD:ultsnake:
17th: Javi:ultlucina::ultwolf:
17th: Jumpsteady:ultzss:
25th: Ludo:ultmario:
25th: JoJoDaHoBo:ulttoonlink:
25th: Capsize:ultgreninja::ultrobin:
25th: ianology:ultsteve:
25th: Stroder:ultgreninja::ultsora::ultjoker::ultroy:
25th: pokepen:ultsephiroth::ultjoker:
25th: Klaatu:ultolimar:
25th: Domnique:ultrob:

33rd: Middy:ultpacman:
33rd: Phuzix:ultsheik:
33rd: H4DS:ultpikachu:
33rd: Jcklonk:ultjoker:
33rd: Biggymouth:ultrob:
33rd: Kurama:ultmario:
33rd: Rocke:ultpacman:
33rd: MFA:ultolimar:
33rd: grandmaster:ultpalutena::ultrobin:
33rd: Cattail:ulttoonlink:
33rd: Peacel2:ultwario:
33rd: moxi:ultpokemontrainer:
33rd: Fizzmint:ultshulk:
33rd: JDV:ultpacman:
33rd: varun:ultwiifittrainer:
33rd: Hakii:ultzss::ultsheik:


While no where near as big as the last several major events, this one had some interesting stuff occur. For example:
  1. We have two :ultincineroar: and a :ultjigglypuff: at top 16, both making upsets and the latter catching Tweek off-guard. What kind of timeline we are living in?
  2. I also feel like we always have a random sicko :ultrobin: player placing highly once every few major events.
  3. Tweek:ultdiddy: got an insane loser's run this tournament, ultimately falling to Sparg0:ultpyra: in loser's finals.
  4. MkLeo scores another major win for :ultbyleth:, using him exclusively to win this event.
  5. That is two major events in a row where Sparg0:ultpyra::ultcloud: had a big shot in winning, but just came up just short. Maybe one day....
  6. Ned:ultsephiroth: 9th placement is by far the best placement of Sephiroth yet. We will see if he can continue this momentum. However, it is safe to say that Tweek's Sephiroth, already barely used, may be put in the back for a very long time after that Dark Wizzy set.
  7. Dark Wizzy:ultmario: leveled up this tournament, finally getting some of his pre-quarantine success back.
  8. BigBoss:ultrob: is one of the nuttiest R.O.B.'s I have seen. Despite it being 3-0, he was actually standing toe-to-toe vs Tweek.
  9. While LeoN:ultbowser: is no stranger to placing high in large events, I think this is the first time he emerged from the winner's side top 8 of a major event.
 

blackghost

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
2,249
For :ultbayonetta:, it usually depends on which part you get hit by Witch Twist. For normal circumstances, I actually SDI/DI Witch Twist down and away. This is even more effective pre-8.0.0 before they lowered the SDI multiplier on Witch Twist, but it still works today. If you get hit by the upper portion of Witch Twist, DI/SDI'ing up and away from Bayo is usually the key there. Unlike in SSB4, rage doesn't scale with autolink angle moves, so you are at a much less risk of randomly dying off the top to SDI'ing off of Witch Twist.

It is actually extremely hard for one to legitimately escape Witch Twist in Ultimate with SDI. When people fall of Witch Twist during a combo, it just kinda happens whenever it wants to. SDI/DI does influence her combo routes greatly however, but don't try to break your control stick over it.

For ABK, I actually DI down and towards Bayo's starting position. This is surprisingly effective to disrupt ABK combos I find.

I don't know where you can find comprehensive list on how to DI/SDI Bayo's moves sadly.
ABKL itslef has three hitboxes early, mid, late, early pushes you up and in the direction bayo is going, mid pushes you up in th edirection bayo is going but slightly more upwards than her trajectory, and late pushes you up to be above her.

You do not want to DI down and in on ABK for mid and early ABK when offstage on the FIRST abk because it can lead to bayo comboing into Dabk which can lead to a death combo ending in fair. Bayo can only go for this on a hard read and if she is wrong she will likely die. there are proabbly ten bayo players in the world good enough to routinely go for and get that but the threat is there.

ok your basic Bayo DI guide:
1. when in doubt hold down. if you truly are panicking hold down.
2. SDI/DI Witch twist 1 up it ,makes combos get cut short and forces her to burn a jump or a jump cnacel to chnase effectively. However on town and city you dont want to hold up below the platforms on the sides.
3. SDI/DI witch twist 2 by holding down. second witch tiwst doesnt have the same Knockback as witch twist 1 you want to try and end up below bayonetta. if and when you fall out be aware of witch time and swing when she hits the ground. her only option is to witch time, dair or Dbak away if she still has it.

4. on fair 1 stirngs hold up and away. if you tihnk they wil go for fair 1 into fsmash hold up and in.
5. fair 2 combos into nothing dont fall for fake combos.

its best to just watch lima, mistake or geist or any other legit bayo play you'll start to see the patterns of where to DI, bayo is a very rhythmic character once you disrupt that rhythm as a character she falls apart.


a healthy competitive fighting game has character specialists mastering their characters and forcing revaluation of tier lists. we have had several hig h tier characters suffer the wesker effect which means they are so common everyone has experience with them making their placements that much harder. lucina, inkling, and others all felt this already. pyra may be next.

byleths orignal placement imo has more to do with how mad the community was and hoping he'd suck, and he was overanalyzed similar to the situation with banjo only reversed. byleth at his core is a character that can function at any range and cannot be traditionally edgegaurded. he has confirms from nair and moves that demand respect.he's a good character.

i also think its important to watch the sets not just read the set score on these matches because sometimes people simply play the MU incorrectly. these mu with inceneraor winning I'm skeptical that the match was played well.
 
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Kokiden

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 24, 2019
Messages
782
I mean, that's also basically the same for Joker
Either Leo win a tournament/Major with him, or the next one is top25/33 more than half of the time, and doing like more than half of the Point for Joker by himself in the Orionstats
When it's Joker, we put him Top 1 , when it's Byleth taking games and supermajor, it's just Leo's skills and Byleth being a mid-tier character
I'm not sure how we're really supposed to take characters performance anymore, with characters like Byleth/Pikachu having one player wonders, and others character being ultra-widespread, ranking high but failing to win a tournament
I was just about to say something like this.

I attribute it more to player skill, than the character itself tbh. That's not to say the character choice itself isn't important. It is. They do need to be good, but that is lower on the priority list compared to the player just being excellent. MkLeo with Byleth is an example.

Another example would be many Joker's would be placing quite highly if most of the attribution is to the character, same with Pikachu as well.

Last example is Bayonetta. The only one who actually does well with her is Lima, but I'm not going to be going around saying she's a top tier character. I've yet to see another Bayo of his caliber.

As for Zackray winning with Sora, same thing. Character is good, but the player itself is what won him the victory.

One thing I will say about Sora is, he's not fun to watch.

Unlike Joker, Byleth, or just any of the other characters we see all the time, there's something about watching him floating around and descending slowly that really puts a damper on the fast paced, adrenaline rush, of watching high level matches.
 
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Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,348
CyPhaCon Mini Esports results

1. Cosmos :ultpyra::ultmythra:
2. Niko :ultcloud::ultsephiroth:
3. yonni :ultzombie:
4. LarryLurr :ultwolf::ultfalco:
5. Lima :ultbayonetta:
5. KirbyKid :ultkrool:
7. Goblin :ultroy:
7. Sem :ultbrawler::ultdoc:

With Shuton and Sparg0 getting 2nd at Kagaribi 5 and Port Priority 6 respectively, combined with Cosmos getting 1st here, Pyra/Mythra had a fantastic weekend. I'll be shocked if they don't overtake :ultsnake: on OrionStats this weekend.
 

Kokiden

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 24, 2019
Messages
782
CyPhaCon Mini Esports results

1. Cosmos :ultpyra::ultmythra:
2. Niko :ultcloud::ultsephiroth:
3. yonni :ultzombie:
4. LarryLurr :ultwolf::ultfalco:
5. Lima :ultbayonetta:
5. KirbyKid :ultkrool:
7. Goblin :ultroy:
7. Sem :ultbrawler::ultdoc:

With Shuton and Sparg0 getting 2nd at Kagaribi 5 and Port Priority 6 respectively, combined with Cosmos getting 1st here, Pyra/Mythra had a fantastic weekend. I'll be shocked if they don't overtake :ultsnake: on OrionStats this weekend.
Oh no I really wanted to watch this one! D=

I wanted to see Lima's Bayo and Niko's Sephiroth.

Any idea where I can watch the replay?
 

Sinister Slush

❄ I miss my kind ❄
Moderator
BRoomer
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Messages
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Location
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SinisterSlush
The rise of Pythra is upon us, despite 2 of the 3 that got top 2 at 3 different majors/big regionals, 2nd Shuton with pythra + olimar, Spargo with pythra + cloud and with Cosmos getting 1st at Cyphacon, we're well on the way of Pythra slowly solidifying themselves as a top 3 or possibly even Top 1 character since there's a good amount of people that say they're barely top 5 and even moreso as the main two Jokers, MKleo and Zackray keep hopping around different characters to win with for most of their sets. They could overtake that spot pretty soon from both usage across the globe and general success while doing so.

On another note, couldn't find many matches of Raito at kagaribi outside of one for top 8 entry where he played only DH, sad to see no Banjo-Kazooie play especially since surprisingly this thread was overly positive on the other animal duo when I thought the general consensus was vitriol because "zoning projectile spammers" tends to be on everyone's hate agenda.
Nice sight tbh

edit: completely missed somebody else already mentioning Cyphacon and pythra results being extremely good this weekend. Oh well
 
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