Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[KirbySquad101]

When you say no one enjoys the counterplay of camping characters with extreme close combat power, is that supposed to mean the grappler archetype is inherently toxic?

I think Luigi is the worst case scenario, but as a whole, I don't find grapplers to be inherently toxic. Stuff like DK, Incineroar, or Bowser is generally fine in my opinion.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I think Luigi is the worst case scenario (though my problems with Luigi have to deal less with his archetype and moreso his linearity), but as a whole, I don't find grapplers to be inherently toxic. Stuff like DK, Incineroar, or Bowser is generally fine in my opinion.

Then what exactly are you saying? What do you consider toxic when it comes to character design? I'm just going to go right out there and ask it.

 

[Cheryl~]

Then what exactly are you saying? What do you consider toxic when it comes to character design? I'm just going to go right out there and ask it.

If you’re talking about Luigi, the toxic parts of his design are pretty simple: if he grabs you, he has multiple ways to secure a 0-death on you even if you SDI correctly, he has an invincible option to break out of combos that Luigi players can and will spam, and also if you get too close and whiff something at say, 60%, you just died because they Up-Bed you. Combine all of this along with Luigi being bad at approaching and you get the best game plan against Luigi: camping him the hell out so he can’t grab you and combo you to death, or kill you off of one mistake.

 

[meleebrawler]

If you’re talking about Luigi, the toxic parts of his design are pretty simple: if he grabs you, he has multiple ways to secure a 0-death on you even if you SDI correctly, he has an invincible option to break out of combos that Luigi players can and will spam, and also if you get too close and whiff something at say, 60%, you just died because they Up-Bed you. Combine all of this along with Luigi being bad at approaching and you get the best game plan against Luigi: camping him the hell out so he can’t grab you and combo you to death, or kill you off of one mistake.

OK, but the exact amount the grapplers do isn't really the point. We may cite Luigi as a particular example but that doesn't make the counterplay different for the less extreme ones, assuming your character isn't as melee-inclined.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Grappler counterplay doesn’t change but the other grapplers aren’t such extreme cases like Luigi. Getting grabbed at zero by another grappler does not lead to an stock. Other grapplers have tools to play around typical grappler counter play of being camped and their grab reward is not so strong that being laser focused on only trying to land a grab is not their only goal. If Incineroar grabs me on my last stock at zero I know I’m eating a big punish but it’s not likely I’m losing the game because of it. If Luigi does the same I probably just lost, why risk that?

With such a skewed reward as well as Luigi’s general inability to deal with being camped particularly on platforms being completely in avoidant of interaction with Luigi until you out of zero to death range is the only smart play and that isn’t fun for the Luigi or the other player. I recognize the need to give Luigi a strong reward for grabbing due to his other attributes, just not a zero to death that just creates problems.

 

[blackghost]

Another tournament done, The Box: Juice Box #10. Some interesting notes:

Mew2King 9th place primarily with Mr. Game & Watch, beating players like Sharp and Enzo and taking a game off of Cosmos. Comos 3rd place, again with solo Corrin, losing to MkLeo and Tweek. The Tweek set was very interesting since he won a game and almost won game 3 as well, but ultimately he ended up 1-3 versus Tweek's Diddy Kong. Still, it seems like he's doing better versus Tweek's Diddy, especially compared to the FT10 they played some weeks ago. Perhaps the Aaron practice is paying off?

MkLeo had a dominant run, not dropping a single set and 3-0:ing both Cosmos in Winners Finals and Tweek in Grand Finals. MkLeo mostly played Byleth, although apparently he used some Cloud in top 64 and Wolf versus Ned in top 8 (and Wolf/Cloud once in pools).

Samsora out at 13th, which, given the tournament, seems a little disappointing. Then again, he was seeded 18th so I guess 13th isn't too bad. He lost to MiLe, the Yoshi, and Regi Shikimi, the Mr. Game & Watch. MiLe did out rank Samsora in the Wi-Fi ranking (#40 vs Samsora's #49), so I guess it's not too surprising.

After watching MkLeo's Byleth, I've come to the following conclusion: Byleth isn't a secret top 25 character or anything, MkLeo is just incredibly skilled and many people don't know the matchup. Remember early Smash Ultimate, when people thought Ike might be top tier because of MkLeo? Yeah, I suspect Byleth might be in a similar situation. Maybe I'll change my mind later, but I don't think she's even top 40 right now. MkLeo is very skilled though, and he can make -1 MUs look like winning MUs.

Tournament: https://smash.gg/tournament/the-box-juice-box-10/details

mk leo is just playing a fundamental solid game with byleth. his spacing and punish game are on point. he does a great job playing the characters strengths. he is the first smash player to remind me of watch diago play street fighter in the sense its not flashy but if you wanted to teach someone how to play compeitive smash you'd show them mk leo using byleth.

 

[The_Bookworm]

So the The 8.0 Gimvitational is going on right now. It is an 8-man invitational, where each player represents a character that got buffed in 8.0.

We are now in top 4.

Winner's: Tweek vs MkLeo
Loser's: Dabuz vs Cosmos

5th: Marss
5th: Larry Lurr
7th: VoiD
7th: Fatality


Edit:
Tweek 3-2 MkLeo (very close set)
Cosmos 3-2 Dabuz (very close set)
Cosmos 3-0 MkLeo
Tweek 3-1 Cosmos


1st: Tweek
2nd: Cosmos
3rd: MkLeo
4th: Dabuz


Edit 2:
Something to note, is that this tournament was played with hazards on.
This means no PS2, no Lylat, no Kalos League, and no Yoshi's Story.
However, this also means that we have hazardless Smashville with the moving platform (and balloon).

 

[Frihetsanka]

Seems like something people might be interested in watching.

Man, i thought it was my imagination but byleth is indeed better than marth, being inconsistent is not helping lol and one of the things i hate the most is having hope for marth and then just realizing lucina could’ve won for free. Not online, applies to offline too.

— LG | MkLeo (@Mkleosb) August 24, 2020

Seems MkLeo doesn't have much faith in Marth anymore. I think Byleth being better than Marth does sound like a bit much (though MkLeo is very optimistic in regards to Byleth) but it does seem like Marth is still noticeably worse than in 4 and still several spots worse than Lucina. I still think he's a pretty good character but probably not top 15.

 

[The_Bookworm]

This is probably my favorite set of the tournament.

This set went down to the wire. Either of them could've easily advanced, but one emerged victorious.
Dabuz still has some areas to improve on in terms of the Pits, especially in terms of arrow accuracy with normal Pit, but he is progressing very nicely lately.

Seems like something people might be interested in watching.

Man, i thought it was my imagination but byleth is indeed better than marth, being inconsistent is not helping lol and one of the things i hate the most is having hope for marth and then just realizing lucina could’ve won for free. Not online, applies to offline too.

— LG | MkLeo (@Mkleosb) August 24, 2020

Seems MkLeo doesn't have much faith in Marth anymore. I think Byleth being better than Marth does sound like a bit much (though MkLeo is very optimistic in regards to Byleth) but it does seem like Marth is still noticeably worse than in 4 and still several spots worse than Lucina. I still think he's a pretty good character but probably not top 15.

Considering how incredibly close Cosmos' set against Dabuz went, I was surprised on how much Cosmos blew up MkLeo.

But yeah, Marth is still a very inconsistent character despite the buffs. MkLeo told ESAM in his comment thread that he thinks Marth is a lower mid-tier character due to this.

I am personally still optimistic on Byleth, so we will see how this develops.

Either way, Tweek pretty much swept through the tournament rather easily, aside from a close game 5 set against MkLeo.

 

[Game7a1]

Name of the tech could use some work, but the video, mainly about , shows of some applications for cancelling some landing aerial animations into crouch by pivoting or walking. Pretty much a continuation of using crouch to avoid and punish OOS options.

EDIT: Tech has been renamed from "Procedurally Generated Animation" to "Animtation Interpolation", which is a better interpretation of what's going on.

 

[Thinkaman]

With respect: this answer is ridiculous and you know it. You're smart enough to know that. We already know why heavies have the stuff that they have. The weaknesses of large-framed heavy characters have been litigated countless times on Smashboards over the many, many years it's been around. We know why they are the way they are in Ultimate.

Saying "this was the wrong way to balance them" is not scrubby nor is it an insult to players who enjoy heavyweights, and I even stated that my intention wasn't to come for heavyweight players in the post that started this debate. Literally calling me a scrub for having that opinion is an insult, however, so maybe check yourself there.

I'm sorry if I projected different long-running attitudes that exist within the community into your posts, and made them into a strawman proxy for me to grumble at. Your posts are high-quality and don't deserve that.

I mean I'll grant you that "complaining about" Bowser dair alongside DK side-b looks weird, but the point I wanted to make is that "heavies" are designed in a way that rewards "fishing" for moves because they don't really have other tools in most cases. It's not an issue that they have to be respected, it's an issue that many of them have the potential to instantly take stocks at very low percents disproportionate to the risk given their weight.

But I do disagree a non-zero amount here, this brush is way too thick to describe the scope of the problem or at least how I would define it.

I love Incineroar. I think Incineroar is one of the best designed characters in the game. He kills people off 2-3 precision reads all the time. Maybe I'm biased, but it never feels unfair or cheesy, never feels like I'm throwing stuff out. (It feels like I'm sticking my arm through the eye of the needle and grabbing them by the throat)

Chaingrabbing ICs was not like this. And I agree with you that DK is more like old ICs than Incineroar, and is one of the more pooly designed characters in the game. Playing against DK feels like it turns every matchup into something of an endurance contest where DK himself is sort of impotent and just hoping you make a mistake. And, like ICs, the cost of single mistakes means that the matchup is an unusually skewed when played between skill/experience levels.

I think the same charges could have been leveled at King K Rool, who I considered at launch to be the #1 worst designed character in the game. But nair and now armored crown majorly patched his low-level-play-only neutral game, and he has a handful of Incineroar-style "narrow counter" options that keep things more engaging than a DK abuse-or-be-abused slugfest. (I would give the patch team a gold star for K Rool, in that his changes affected my enjoyment of the K Rool matchup(s) to an extent I never would have predicted. (Now do DK!))

I don't really have any problem with Bowser at all in this game. (Note that this was NOT true in Smash 4!) I think he's interesting to play against, has interesting if unexciting armor pathways, the absolute minimum amount of disadvantage tools (bouyed by his weight + floatiness), and don't have an objection to his (probably overtuned) side-b. Ditto for Ridley. Ditto for Terry if you want to include him here. Mac is great, like Incineroar.

I think DDD has some dubious design (probably makes bottom 10), but it's stuff that's kind of orthogonal to what's being discussed here. (When is DDD killing people in 2 hits with YOLO moves?) The only overlap is some of the DK disadvantage stuff.

I think Min Min is a blast, and she very much can kill people off a single situation. But at this point we're starting to feel less like a heavy and almost more like Mario. Which, speaking of YOLO moves? There's nothing more "Eh, I'll throw this out and maybe I win" than Mario u-smash. When I think of "braindead fishing that's not fun", that's honestly the very first move my mind jumps to lol.

Zelda is a perennial contender for worst-designed character, but I'm not sure her problems are actually ICs/DK syndrome either. The sort of mistake you need to make for Zelda to melt you is not this broad "oops you got grabbed", but more of the sort of specific mistakes that various members of the cast can punish severely. Zelda just manages to have a bad+dull neutral (Phantom at least helps) combined with a weird disadvantage state that sort of maximizes the boring parts and minimizes engagement.

The shotos can feel like "just waiting for that one mistake", but this was much more true with Smash 4 Ryu. In Ultimate, the shotos feel more well-rounded, and I wish the same sort of transition happened to DK.

Wario isn't the best designed. Lucario is mostly fine, just for narrow tastes. (And weak atm) Sonic is mostly a problem of the community's own creation.

Again, the thought experiment I posted above here is relevant: Kirby's super bad right now. There are good ways to buff him. You can increase his air speed, increase the range of his attacks, give him better ways to maintain control after a hit so that he doesn't have to contend in neutral as often, etc. There are a lot of very smart ways to buff Kirby that could make him a better character.

Or, you could like, keep buffing his special moves and dash attack over and over again so that they do more shield damage, more damage, more knockback, etc. encouraging Kirby players to hail mary more than they actually do, encouraging playstyles that don't feel deliberate and rewarding desperation and habits that have been universally called "bad" across every other Smash game.

I think this is apt. Kirby is actually the character (imo) whose design status quo is most similar to DK, not any (super)heavy.

Though, I'm going to quibble on the characterization of the Kirby patch changes. I wouldn't equate QoL changes to moves that definitely deserved them to some misguided philosophy on the patching team's part. It's possible for all of the following to be true:

• Kirby is poorly designed
• Certain Kirby moves are overused by new players
• Those moves objectively don't hit correctly and should be fixed

While I wouldn't characterize them as particularly effective or brilliant, the actual meaningful changes to Kirby have been the aerial buffs and frame 2 jab. (And maybe d-smash? I still don't know how relevant that is, even though it's big on paper.) All the QoL stuff on U-smash, dash attack, Inhale, and Stone should be appreciated for what they are, and is stuff that should have happened regardless of Kirby's other issues.


But, bottom line is, I don't really see this "pigeonholed into excessive punish options" as a chronic or structural problem, especially attached to superheavies as originally expressed. The biggest offenders in my mind are characters as diverse as DK, Kirby, Wario, old ICs, and old Ryu. It seems like just another generic category of concern affecting various characters, like "limited neutral" or "unengaging disadvantage".

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Got nailed by MU unfamiliarity a couple days ago. A Belmont 3-stocked me with barely any damage taken on his part. Apparently holy water bnb's into his upb uppercut. It's pretty damn potent if you're not ready for it and his nair is a drag down too. Not exactly easy to get out of.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Got nailed by MU unfamiliarity a couple days ago. A Belmont 3-stocked me with barely any damage taken on his part. Apparently holy water bnb's into his upb uppercut. It's pretty damn potent if you're not ready for it and his nair is a drag down too. Not exactly easy to get out of.

Belmonts have great tools, especially if you're unprepared for them. Their biggest issues are lack of KO power, a poor recovery, and narrow hitboxes on fair, bair, and up air. They're among the next in line for buffs imo. Make a couple moves kill sooner, make their up B go a bit further, and maybe increase some hitboxes a little, and we'll be back to regarding them as strong characters.

 

[Nobie]

Only MKLeo could get 3rd, after getting to Winner's Finals, and still feel his character didn't have what it takes. I also wonder why people see Marth and Lucina as separate entities, when using both could probably be an asset, like Pit+Dark Pit.

Incidentally, Rizeasu just got 2nd at a 256-entrant Tamisuma going all Marth, losing to a Zelda in the end of all things. https://twitter.com/VGBootCamp/status/1298262424328396808?s=19

 

[Arthur97]

There generally seems to be less reason to ever use Marth over Lucina though except, ironically enough, against Lucina. Which I think some may switch in that case, but overall...why bother? Learning Marth's spacing is probably a bit more involved than knowing that two or three moves work slightly differently. Effort that just may not always even pay off.

 

[Idon]

Only MKLeo could get 3rd, after getting to Winner's Finals, and still feel his character didn't have what it takes. I also wonder why people see Marth and Lucina as separate entities, when using both could probably be an asset, like Pit+Dark Pit.

Incidentally, Rizeasu just got 2nd at a 256-entrant Tamisuma going all Marth, losing to a Zelda in the end of all things. https://twitter.com/VGBootCamp/status/1298262424328396808?s=19

There IS no asset. You are trading away consistency for at BEST having a side B that kills inconsistently and an ftilt that might kill depending on if the game randomly decides it is a tip or not. Absolutely no one would go "damn, I would've done better if I was Marth that game."

 

[StrangeKitten]

How odd that Leo considers Byleth better. My opinion on Byleth has been lessening over the past few months, and I'd have thought the Marth buffs would have brought him up a good bit. Guess I should have trusted my gut on Byleth being decent. Feel kinda sorry for Marth and Leo. Here's hoping for more Marth buffs/fixes

 

[Krysco]

I've got a rather optimistic view on Marth but then my sparring buddy co-mains him with Falco and I also see the value of tippers consistently as a Chrom main given that I do take a lot of stocks with parts of moves that would be weak tippers for Roy. Even looking past all of that, I always find it hard to understand how some people will put Lucina in the highest tier possible on tier lists and then put Marth in mid tier when the 2 share the exact same weight, frame data, movement specs and range. I understand Lucina's consistency and how her attacks are closer to Marth's tipper power than his hilt power and how Marth can have trouble killing if he doesn't land a tipper but I still don't find the characters different enough to be 2 or more whole tiers apart. I agree Lucina is better and I can believe by 1 whole tier but no more than that. I'm willing to believe Lucina is top tier and Marth is high tier or that Lucina is high tier and Marth is mid tier, but not Lucina being top tier and Marth being mid.

I also don't believe the 'inconsistency' or 'randomness' people claim regarding Marth's tippers. First of all because you can literally look at the hitboxes and see where the tipper hitboxes are and if you have Marth do an attack at tipper range twice and the situations (like what the opponent is doing animation-wise) are the exact same, it will either tipper in both situations or won't in both. You will never have one be a tipper and one not. His attacks aren't Hero smash attacks, there's no actual randomness to them. Plus I've gotten to see thanks to my sparring buddy that you can learn how to more reliably get tippers. It's not always guaranteed since players don't stay perfectly still and from a competitive standpoint, it's not worth it when Lucina is an option but it is possible to learn how to more reliably get tippers.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Only MKLeo could get 3rd, after getting to Winner's Finals, and still feel his character didn't have what it takes. I also wonder why people see Marth and Lucina as separate entities, when using both could probably be an asset, like Pit+Dark Pit.

Incidentally, Rizeasu just got 2nd at a 256-entrant Tamisuma going all Marth, losing to a Zelda in the end of all things. https://twitter.com/VGBootCamp/status/1298262424328396808?s=19

Yn is a really good Zelda who has improved a lot during the course of Ultimate.
At least that's my impression of him.

Still, Zelda is still very inconsistent and Japan is a very strong region, so it really surprises me that he won with her but can't complain about that.

 

[The_Bookworm]

A tournament called Frame Perfect Series Online took place, which is a singles event for Ultimate and RoA.

1st: MkLeo
2nd: BestNess
3rd: Salem
4th: Sonix
5th: SKITTLES!! (DQ'ed in loser's)
5th: DKwill
7th: Loaf
7th: Epic_Gabriel
9th: Benny&TheJets
9th: Hungrybox
9th: Sparg0
9th: Kofi
13th: LeoN
13th: ChaseMe
13th: Owo_Lute
13th: The6Master
17th: RatedRudy
17th: GUMMY
17th: ISuck
17th: Ayygent (DQ'ed in loser's)
17th: Sharp
17th: SONIC4EVER (DQ'ed)
17th: Uncivil ninja
17th: colinies

Leo spent the first half of the tournament with , but then completed the second half (winner's quarterfinals to grand finals) with .
It was a rather dominating tournament for him.

 

[toonito]

what are everyone's thoughts on the roster online play vs win rates?

Clickbait part 2

Smash Ultimate Online Tournament Tier List/Popularity List

Initially based on 625,000 tournament matches, then filtered to only include decent or better players

Higher up = better winrate
More to the right = more common pic.twitter.com/XSRyYAkWj1

— Andrew Nestico (@PracticalTAS) August 24, 2020

 

[Frihetsanka]

I guess the Peach mains were right all along: Peach is significantly better than Daisy. Either that or that chart cannot be trusted.

 

[B_Burg]

In that last tweet there they say "... then filtered to only include decent or better players." I'd like to know by what metric they gauge "decent or better players" to be.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Cosmos and Light played FT10, this time Light won 10-6. Then they played a FT5 which Cosmos won 5-2, and a final FT5 which Light won 5-4. In total, 17 wins for Light, 15 for Cosmos, quite close overall! They played with hazards on, which does not seem worth giving up several good stages for.

 

[DJ3DS]

RE: The online win rates stuff. Whilst it's not 100% clear to me exactly which data has been compiled, it is worth noting that there is a gulf of difference between the representatives for different characters. As an easy example, compare ROB and Joker.

ROB has several of his top offline representatives entering the majority of online tournaments and making deep runs. Epic_Gabriel, Raffi-X, Bennyandthejets, Grayson, 8Bitman - these have all continued to do things online and we can see that reflected in his win rate.

Joker, meanwhile, is really suffering here. But how much of that is a surprise? MKLeo is playing different characters. Wishes is not entering things to the best of my knowledge. I've no idea what Zackray and Eim are doing.

One outlier to me is Ken having the highest win rate overall. This surprised me because I am not entirely sure who has been playing him in these tournaments and making the deep runs. For the other characters with high win rates I can point to specific player(s) making deep runs in multiple tourneys; T3 DOM for Richter, Enarmoria's Robin, Sonix, and so on.

 

[StrangeKitten]

People just don't really play Daisy. I don't know if Peach's hurtbox is overall better (Daisy is taller but thinner, though the difference is very minuscule) or if it's just a case of all the former Peach players sticking with Peach. But there's no reason to pick one over the other. I hope they get some meaningful differences someday

 

[Arthur97]

People just don't really play Daisy. I don't know if Peach's hurtbox is overall better (Daisy is taller but thinner, though the difference is very minuscule) or if it's just a case of all the former Peach players sticking with Peach. But there's no reason to pick one over the other. I hope they get some meaningful differences someday

Well, they had a difference...then they patched it out.

 

[Nobie]

Salem makes a case for Hero being good against Sonic (or at the very least, campy Sonics).

You might not think that given Hero's mediocre frame data, but as Mew2King points out, camping Hero just gives him more time to fish for spells. Combined with multiple high-damage, huge coverage projectiles, and it makes for someone Sonic needs to approach. Perhaps a more balanced Sonic like KEN could do better.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

RE: The online win rates stuff. Whilst it's not 100% clear to me exactly which data has been compiled, it is worth noting that there is a gulf of difference between the representatives for different characters. As an easy example, compare ROB and Joker.

ROB has several of his top offline representatives entering the majority of online tournaments and making deep runs. Epic_Gabriel, Raffi-X, Bennyandthejets, Grayson, 8Bitman - these have all continued to do things online and we can see that reflected in his win rate.

Joker, meanwhile, is really suffering here. But how much of that is a surprise? MKLeo is playing different characters. Wishes is not entering things to the best of my knowledge. I've no idea what Zackray and Eim are doing.

One outlier to me is Ken having the highest win rate overall. This surprised me because I am not entirely sure who has been playing him in these tournaments and making the deep runs. For the other characters with high win rates I can point to specific player(s) making deep runs in multiple tourneys; T3 DOM for Richter, Enarmoria's Robin, Sonix, and so on.

Vendetta and Syntonix main Ken (Vendetta also uses Ryu) and Riddles occasionally uses Ken.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Salem makes a case for Hero being good against Sonic (or at the very least, campy Sonics).

You might not think that given Hero's mediocre frame data, but as Mew2King points out, camping Hero just gives him more time to fish for spells. Combined with multiple high-damage, huge coverage projectiles, and it makes for someone Sonic needs to approach. Perhaps a more balanced Sonic like KEN could do better.

Hero still has big disjoints despite the poor frame data. And projectiles that come out so fast, it's hard to react sometimes offline. Sonic doesn't really have disjoints and his means of dealing with projectiles are running away and homing attack. Not the worst, but also not the best when Hero's projectiles are the size of Texas. I doubt he wins the Sonic MU, but he probably doesn't lose to Sonic that badly

 

[DougEfresh]

That actually had some of the wildest Hero plays I've ever seen, lol. Always knew Salem was proficient with him, but I hadn't seen Hero be played quite like that before. Good stuff (plus, I can't help but enjoy watching Hero RNG completely snuff out Sonic's degenerate time out strategy haha).

Somewhat related, I don't think is the only character that can deal with Sonic's camping. Though he doesn't get the power ups or buffs that Hero does, also benefits from Sonic not interacting and cornering himself as a result. From mid range, he can use grenegg to bounce toward , forcing him to deal with it in one way or another and limit his approach options. Grenegg in conjuction with egg shots help to cover a decent chunk of space that he likes to commonly approach from. Nair is active for a very long time, and WILL stuff out homing attack when timed properly if Sonic tries to use that to get in and convert off of hitting HA. Bair also does this job well, but to a slightly lesser extent and uair can cover the HA if he tries to use it as an aggressive landing option (and should a homing attack ever miss, that's a free wonderwing punish due to its 70-something frames of landing lag).

Other factors that I feel work in Banjo's favor in the match up is that his solid ground speed is good for staying underneath Sonic and capitalizing on his poor landing options (and Banjo has very good ways of punishing bad landings), plus his weight should make it pretty dang hard for Sonic to kill Banjo if the Banjo player is playing a bit more non-commital and focuses on getting Sonic to approach around his projectiles as much as possible. The ledge trapping should really thrive for Banjo here as well.

Not saying Banjo is a hard counter to Sonic or anything; he still has the insane mobility to maneauver around the telegraphed and rather slow-moving projectiles Banjo has in neutral. But the fact that he can use them to occupy space and cut off approach options from Sonic (if implemented properly) is a big strength and advantage that few characters have the luxury of doing with consistent efficacy against Sonic. While I'm kind of relying on the theory of what I just posted here, I'd say the match up is even, though I could see it going somewhat in's favor over time if Banjo mains really take the time to optimize the match up.

 

[Game7a1]

17th: SONIC4EVER (DQ'ed)

This is Maister. I have no idea why he changed his tag, but yeah.

 

[The_Bookworm]

This is Maister. I have no idea why he changed his tag, but yeah.

Got gifted 25 subs to do this, and I’m proud of saying that Sonic is a lifestyle to me. He is more than just a blue hedgehog, he is love, he is life, he is my partner in time.

I dont know where I would be without him, he has taught me so many things during these hard times. pic.twitter.com/uZDvCo3fMv

— LG | Maister (@Maister_SSB) August 25, 2020

This is quite a way to one-up Kola's PIKAPIZZA07 tag.

 

[Rizen]

IMO goes even with but IDK what it's like on Wifi. YL has the tools in projectiles to make Sonic's approaches hard but Sonic's also one of the better zone breakers.
Edit, Skittles beat Sonix on wifi recently.

Mega Man is pretty good, but he kinda fell off a bit this year, even prior to the switch to online. His main representatives hasn't really done too much lately, and Kameme was actually using more and more Wario in tournaments than Mega Man. At the same time, characters like Sonic, Cloud, Young Link, Ness, and Samus have rose in metagame presence since then, when Mega Man kinda stagnated.

Again, he is still pretty good, but the competition gets even more fierce as time goes on, especially after all the crazy stuff mid tiers have been getting at 7.0 and 8.0.

This is a pretty good example of how the powercreep manifests in Ultimate. It doesn't creep past top tier but the tiers under it are certainly more powerful. We're seeing buffed characters like Diddy and Corrin all over with a dab of my boy YL. Buffs are very relevant.

I also don't believe the 'inconsistency' or 'randomness' people claim regarding Marth's tippers. First of all because you can literally look at the hitboxes and see where the tipper hitboxes are and if you have Marth do an attack at tipper range twice and the situations (like what the opponent is doing animation-wise) are the exact same, it will either tipper in both situations or won't in both. You will never have one be a tipper and one not. His attacks aren't Hero smash attacks, there's no actual randomness to them. Plus I've gotten to see thanks to my sparring buddy that you can learn how to more reliably get tippers. It's not always guaranteed since players don't stay perfectly still and from a competitive standpoint, it's not worth it when Lucina is an option but it is possible to learn how to more reliably get tippers.

Thank you.

Cosmos and Light played FT10, this time Light won 10-6. Then they played a FT5 which Cosmos won 5-2, and a final FT5 which Light won 5-4. In total, 17 wins for Light, 15 for Cosmos, quite close overall! They played with hazards on, which does not seem worth giving up several good stages for.

Are there videos of this?

_________
This thread has some good posts but I'm just not able to type walls of text like I used to. I use my wrists a lot for typing a book and messaging my GF and can only do so much with them or they start to hurt. I don't want to get carpal tunnel syndrome. So I'm cutting back on online stuff.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Are there videos of this?

Here's a VOD of Cosmos's stream, I timestamped game 1: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/721469953?t=0h11m40s

 

[The_Bookworm]

I have been watching around Smash Bros videos lately, and watching PKBeat's recent Smash Facts video brought up something that I think not many people know.

Apparently, 's up B completely ignores the ledge grab limit. After he uses up all of his 6 ledge grabs, he can still grab the ledge easily with up B, and it works infinitely.

This is definitely an oversight, as no other up B in the game does this, but this is not going to affect anything as you are not going to regrab the ledge 6 times in a real match.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I have been watching around Smash Bros videos lately, and watching PKBeat's recent Smash Facts video brought up something that I think not many people know.

Apparently, 's up B completely ignores the ledge grab limit. After he uses up all of his 6 ledge grabs, he can still grab the ledge easily with up B, and it works infinitely.

This is definitely an oversight, as no other up B in the game does this, but this is not going to affect anything as you are not going to regrab the ledge 6 times in a real match.

Planking is the new Lucario meta!

Before anyone responds to this, I'm joking. His Up B pops him above ledge for a bit, so I don't think this would actually work

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Planking is the new Lucario meta!

Before anyone responds to this, I'm joking. His Up B pops him above ledge for a bit, so I don't think this would actually work

Also he'd be too vulnerable to getting hit from his recovery whenever you'd go up.

 

[DougEfresh]

So I finally got to watching pkbeat's video on the extreme speed infinite ledge regrab. I agree that it's highly doubtful (at best) this will see use in actual matches, but theoretically, if the wanted to troll and camp by the ledge, he could keep using the bonk tech to at least avoid popping up high above the ledge before regrabbing it (and it's a great way to significantly reduce the risk of getting 2-framed under normal circumstances where you get some ledge invulnerability). Doesn't mean much for his actual meta advancement, but might be worth exploiting to torture fools on wifi with lol. Especially teabaggers....

Edit: Forgot that the 5 limit ledge regrab rule still applies if you try to bonk (that sucks). Oh well. Still might be fun to mess with while it lasts.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Tea released his Pac-Man matchup chart

てぃーぎんこいぶべじちょんれんでパックマンパーフエクトなキャラダイヤ作りました！！
永久保存版です！！！@ginkopacman @japaneserz
@Evepacman @SJimp01 pic.twitter.com/0nJ0XYnc54

— てぃー｜Tea (@chibiT2169) August 28, 2020