Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[SiO2]

Link is cool but I’m still not sure if he’s really that good as of now. YL seems to be doing much better in tournaments also.

As for cloud, he does seem to be a solid character but zero’s showing against two peaches looked concerning lol.

Peach is undeniably S tier. I think she was in Smash 4 as well, but no one could tap into her potential until last year. Also Zero had to contend with two skilled Peaches back-to-back, no doubt even he had his nerves shot after that.

 

[NotLiquid]

On the topic of Cloud, while he looked really good this tournament, Anti had this to say about the character.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

It tends to be easy to get caught up in the optics of how good a character is once you set aside how much is demanded from them.

 

[Minordeth]

“Ike’s Nair is overturned.”

Man, everything looks overtuned when it gets wide exposure from one of the best players in the world in a month old meta with 74 characters.

Like, yeah, if Ike’s Nair resists legit counterplay and he turns into Ultimate ZSS - with a sword - in a year, yeah, okay, it’s an over centralizing move.

You wanna know what else looks over centralizing? Float.

Peach gets that fullhop damage at short hop levels.

Btw, Leo’s movement made wave landing look legit. I almost thought I was watching Bizarro Melee for a split second.

Then I remembered I was just watching a Brawl port.

 

[Nate1080]

Then I remembered I was just watching a Brawl port.

Port memes stopped being funny around the last Smash Direct. Its time to stop.

 

[NotLiquid]

You wanna know what else looks over centralizing? Float.

Peach gets that fullhop damage at short hop levels.

To be honest, I wouldn't be against rectifying this either. I wouldn't be surprised if the multiplier is an oversight on their part given the insane amounts of damage she gets off of one combo.

 

[Ajani]

Link is cool but I’m still not sure if he’s really that good as of now. YL seems to be doing much better in tournaments also.

As for cloud, he does seem to be a solid character but zero’s showing against two peaches looked concerning lol.

To his respect, those were the best peaches in the world. Despite him getting 3-0 by Samsora he was still able to take it to G5 versus Trueace. I'm actually a bit surprised theres sp much discussion around Ike. Not that there shouldn't be but youd think 2 Olimar and 2 Peach showing were the great factors. We also are only talking about the NAir and doing no real analysis on anything else. From what I saw it seems like MKLeo amazing game sense is what enabled Ike to that level. I

 

[Kellojolly]

On the topic of Cloud, while he looked really good this tournament, Anti had this to say about the character.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

It tends to be easy to get caught up in the optics of how good a character is once you set aside how much is demanded from them.

Probably true. Zero, after the tournament, said he felt powerless against Peach to a certain degree and knew he just didn't know the matchup enough and started to essentially panic after MuteAce. He said he knew he didn't stand a chance against Samora's Peach once he lost to MuteAce's and that he will practice Cloud more. I think when his Cloud was working, it was working really well but he progressivly played worse as time went on, noticeably. Also, even though he has been practicing Cloud nonstop in his stream, he has like a week of practice of Cloud ultimate.

As for Ike, Void said that he thinks Ike will just be a mid tier character in the long run due to his linearity (I don't know if I agree with that) and that he sees MkLeo as the main threat. However, he did say he will be preparing for Ike matchups a lot in the near future since he projects to see a substantial spike in Ike player population now.

To his respect, those were the best peaches in the world. Despite him getting 3-0 by Samsora he was still able to take it to G5 versus Trueace. I'm actually a bit surprised theres sp much discussion around Ike. Not that there shouldn't be but youd think 2 Olimar and 2 Peach showing were the great factors. We also are only talking about the NAir and doing no real analysis on anything else. From what I saw it seems like MKLeo amazing game sense is what enabled Ike to that level. I

I agree. MkLeo is just an amazing player who really focuses on fundamentals. He is just so very effective and calculative throughout matches. I do think, however, if he went up against something like YL pro player he would've had some difficulty. I did really enjoy Salem's Link, which really surprised me in terms of how good it was, even though i really wished he used his bombs more effectively. Still, it was an awesome tournament.

 

[LightLV]

I just don't understand why some people are so quick to say characters like Ridley or Bowser, or even characters like Link wont be able to pull results just because there are characters faster than them.

The heavies are solid on this game and people actually die when they're supposed to. It doesn't matter how fast you can combo them to 120%, they can all CLEANLY murder you sub 60% and this is completely independent of their own % because no rage.

I'd be genuinely interested to read someone's writeup on why one would gravitate towards the different Links. It's not as if the difference can be as easily encapsulated as the differences between Marth and Lucina for instance. Personally I think there'd already been a fair share of decent Links in Smash 4 as a niche. He wasn't that bad of a character in the previous game and certain players like T already put in work. What I'm curious to know is whether or not he actually has any sort of notable game up against his clones. I have to assume there is, seeing how Salem and his years of research is confident that Link alone is a better character than Inkling for instance.

I'm also curious whether opinions on Young Link seem to be deteriorating a bit. I feel like the real notable advantage he has is his arrows, but on top of mobility, does Toon Link have any advantage with his buttons and normals?

They all play a bit different.

Link is more of a mid-range fighter, he can set up traps but he's also got a ridiculous amount of easy kill moves to choose from, i.e. almost all of his tilts. So he's also extremely dangerous up close and highly damaging. You just have to learn to space him correctly. Most netplay Links just do the typical Smash 4 toss-n-roll but you get blown up for that on this game. He does **** on people who have trouble dealing with projectiles, but i'd say his ability to do that has actually been nerfed because he no longer has Hookshot.

YLink is straight rushdown, you use his projectiles to open people up but once you get in, you just push your advantage until you knock them off. Typical issue with characters like Ylink on this game is that he lacks hard, single-strike kill options that aren't unsafe, and he's light so you have to REALLY push your advantage against heavies/hard hitters.

TLink is alot more campy, his kit seems a bit better suited for run-n-gun than anyone elses and he's got some decent setups. He's got the best projectiles of the bunch (IMO) and he's pretty agile too. I'd say he's pretty gimmick oriented because his best kill options are setups but the one thing he has over the other links is that signature back throw kill, so he's always got an easy way to seal the deal if you can land that throw.


I think all opinions on characters with Young Link's archetype are going to deteroriate over time. People look at characters like Young Link and see "TOP 5" because he's literally everything that comprised an SSS-tier character in the last 2 previous smash games -- high speed with no landing lag. But the gap between "high speed" and "low speed" on Ultimate is lower than it's ever been, and kill potential across the board hasn't been this high since Melee.

So the "lightweight and speedy" archetype I feel is just inevitably going to be overestimated on this game. But we'll have to see.

As for Ike, Void said that he thinks Ike will just be a mid tier character in the long run due to his linearity (I don't know if I agree with that) and that he sees MkLeo as the main threat. However, he did say he will be preparing for Ike matchups a lot in the near future since he projects to see a substantial spike in Ike player population now.

People are complaining about Ike way too much right now. He's the new Chrom, people are crying about how overwhelming his strengths are but just seem to be glossing over his weaknesses.

I think the biggest one being that yes, he's a pretty linear character, and Ultimate included a mechanic in this game that directly addresses linear approaches.

Now, Peach on the other hand i'm not so sure about. That character has been looking dumb since the game dropped but for some reason nobody has been complaining about her.

 

[Minordeth]

Port memes stopped being funny around the last Smash Direct. Its time to stop.

Hi Nate1080,

You see that end bit there was a reference to a previous post I made which, itself, was a jab at the “it’s a port lol” memes.

I made a meta joke with my own post history because it amused me. Now, Nate1080, you’ve given me the opportunity to explain my meta joke in a meta thread. I’m having a sensible chuckle to myself right now, so, thanks!

Yours truly,

Minordeth.

To be honest, I wouldn't be against rectifying this either. I wouldn't be surprised if the multiplier is an oversight on their part given the insane amounts of damage she gets off of one combo.

Even if the bypassing of the SH penalty got rectified, Peach’s combos would drop to a still monstrous 50% or so. She’s a crazy strong character.

- also, real, legit kill confirms are solid gold in this game. If Ike retains his, I doubt he would ever go lower than high tier, barring engine changes.

 

[Kellojolly]

I just don't understand why some people are so quick to say characters like Ridley or Bowser, or even characters like Link wont be able to pull results just because there are characters faster than them.

The heavies are solid on this game and people actually die when they're supposed to. It doesn't matter how fast you can combo them to 120%, they can all CLEANLY murder you sub 60% and this is completely independent of their own % because no rage.




They all play a bit different.

Link is more of a mid-range fighter, he can set up traps but he's also got a ridiculous amount of easy kill moves to choose from, i.e. almost all of his tilts. So he's also extremely dangerous up close and highly damaging. You just have to learn to space him correctly. Most netplay Links just do the typical Smash 4 toss-n-roll but you get blown up for that on this game. He does **** on people who have trouble dealing with projectiles, but i'd say his ability to do that has actually been nerfed because he no longer has Hookshot.

YLink is straight rushdown, you use his projectiles to open people up but once you get in, you just push your advantage until you knock them off. Typical issue with characters like Ylink on this game is that he lacks hard, single-strike kill options that aren't unsafe, and he's light so you have to REALLY push your advantage against heavies/hard hitters.

TLink is alot more campy, his kit seems a bit better suited for run-n-gun than anyone elses and he's got some decent setups. He's got the best projectiles of the bunch (IMO) and he's pretty agile too. I'd say he's pretty gimmick oriented because his best kill options are setups but the one thing he has over the other links is that signature back throw kill, so he's always got an easy way to seal the deal if you can land that throw.


I think all opinions on characters with Young Link's archetype are going to deteroriate over time. People look at characters like Young Link and see "TOP 5" because he's literally everything that comprised an SSS-tier character in the last 2 previous smash games -- high speed with no landing lag. But the gap between "high speed" and "low speed" on Ultimate is lower than it's ever been, and kill potential across the board hasn't been this high since Melee.

So the "lightweight and speedy" archetype I feel is just inevitably going to be overestimated on this game. But we'll have to see.





People are complaining about Ike way too much right now. He's the new Chrom, people are crying about how overwhelming his strengths are but just seem to be glossing over his weaknesses.

I think the biggest one being that yes, he's a pretty linear character, and Ultimate included a mechanic in this game that directly addresses linear approaches.

Now, Peach on the other hand i'm not so sure about. That character has been looking dumb since the game dropped but for some reason nobody has been complaining about her.

We will have to see but I do think Link's bombs when used properly creates some intersting scenarios and some mental pressure against opponents. As for Ike, I simply don't know enough about him other than his aerial combo potential looked really good and simple enough, which is perfect for someone like MkLeo who revolves his plays around fundamental mechanics. I don't know if Ike is top tier worthy at this point but it'd be cool to see some heavies in top and high tier for sure. As for Peach, I do find her immensely annoying...esp her float. There are quite a few incidents, especially in ZeRo vs MuteAce, where Zero took Peach to like 150% every stock and was somehow losing (via getting gimped and what not). It was awesome to see lol.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Peach is not complained about because she takes intense training and dedication.

There will be no Peach/Daisy bandwagon.

Most humans are too lazy and infected with the instant gratification virus.

 

[Kellojolly]

Peach is not complained about because she takes intense training and dedication.

There will be no Peach/Daisy bandwagon.

Most humans are too lazy and infected with the instant gratification virus.

I also rarely see her in elite smash which doesn't mean much on how good/hard she is to play. I'm very much interested in seeing how Cloud and Ike evolve in the competitive scene. I do hope ZeRo comes back to the scene and stays active in the tournaments, which I am not sure about since he probably wants the stream income.

 

[LightLV]

We will have to see but I do think Link's bombs when used properly creates some intersting scenarios and some mental pressure against opponents. As for Ike, I simply don't know enough about him other than his aerial combo potential looked really good and simple enough, which is perfect for someone like MkLeo who revolves his plays around fundamental mechanics. I don't know if Ike is top tier worthy at this point but it'd be cool to see some heavies in top and high tier for sure. As for Peach, I do find her immensely annoying...esp her float. There are quite a few incidents, especially in ZeRo vs MuteAce, where Zero took Peach to like 150% every stock and was somehow losing (via getting gimped and what not). It was awesome to see lol.

Peach just feels like she didn't receive appropriate nerfs to her kit in line with the mechanic changes to the game. The thing that bothers me most about Peach is that she's still got some Smash4-tier hitbox sizes, on top of float, zero lag, and high kill strength.

I don't feel like these are insurmountable issues because there are alot of matchups to consider, but we'll see how it plays out.

The discussion about "high tier" is premature right now, and the only reason i'm saying that is because the game is fresh and there's more to understand than there was in Smash 4, and more characters are seeming viable than before.

Ike might not get away with Nair walling in the future, what happens when people start parrying it, i mean it's not like Marth/lucina/Chrom speed or anything and he doesn't necessarily have the aerial speed to get away with it. Characters like Kirby are either really bad or pretty damn good depending entirely on who he's fighting. I feel like characters are going to rise and fall as general mechanic and matchup knowledge grows.

 

[BunbUn129]

Some complaints about Ike's nair and the way he's being ridiculed for it seem legit...until you step back and realize in just one month talk has shifted from MK's monkey bars combo, to Inkling being broken, to Chrom's up b jank, and now to Ike and a lesser extent, Peach. I don't like discussions surrounding theoretical nerfs. It's harmless on the small scale but when the entire community on different sites gets on the bandwagon, I'm sure it gets on the balance team's radar.

Saying this because I really don't trust the balance team. They've shown multiple times that they don't properly play-test changes before implementing them, both during S4 patching and in the transition to this game. Sheik's d throw 50/50 still worked on some characters even after it was nerfed (eg. DK), MK's up air continued to work on roughly 1/3 of the cast, Bowser's up throw had to be dialed back some way after the buff, and they dropped the ball hard on Bayonetta...

Even when they buffed characters, those were largely bandage-fixes, mainly silly grab confirms that made characters more viable but one-trick-ponies. Some exceptions like Mewtwo and Marth.

Coming into Ultimate they also gave Fox some suspicious buffs, and that's before you consider how much this game's environment benefits him. But overall though the balance is looking exceptionally good. This is the first Smash game where I don't feel tempted to skip matches involving zoning characters. I used to hate watching Mega Man, Peach, Villager, and the like, but this time I'm perfectly fine with it. And I'm not sure why exactly. Probably because finding that one opening now yields more reward against them, and projectile edge-guarding is also way stronger. Before these matches were a slug-fest of neutral resets.

Edit:

Then I remembered I was just watching a Brawl port.

Hey at least this is an actual Smash game.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Are we really complaining about peach? She's the same dumb **** she's been in every game.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Peach just feels like she didn't receive appropriate nerfs to her kit in line with the mechanic changes to the game. The thing that bothers me most about Peach is that she's still got some Smash4-tier hitbox sizes, on top of float, zero lag, and high kill strength.
.

Peach didnt have anything busted in smash4. Her hitboxes are the same roughly, but without timing or just having more reach her moves can still get beat by a variety of characters who have either more reach or more priority than her. She does have some endlag and its not too out of line with other combo characters, she's always been fast.

Without the old rage her kill strength is weaker, it takes longer to kill directly not counting a gimp compared to smash 4. peach just does more damage now(like everyone) so people get to those later kill percents at just about the same time give or take.

 

[Kellojolly]

Are we really complaining about peach? She's the same dumb **** she's been in every game.

Samsora in particular was amazing with peach and honestly thought he should've won, not MkLeo, or so I thought. Both MuteAce and Samsora's Peaches against ZeRo's cloud (albeit Zero's short practice time) were amazing.

 

[MG_3989]

With a lot of this Ike talk I don’t think we’re giving MkLeo the respect he deserves by asking for nerfs so fast. He played 3 perfect games in a row spacing wise and movement wise

 

[Minordeth]

Fun fact: a lot of moves people thought were strictly safe on shield actually aren’t. Pikachu’s almost everything is one example.

Funner Fact: Wolf’s Bair is kinda slow at frame 13-15. But, it autocancels after frame 18. Yeah. Three frames after the hit box ends.

What does this mean? Well, at best, it’s +1 on shield. Even if you suck at fast falling, and land on frame 25, you are still at a crisp -6. It’s uh, it’s pretty good.

 

[AxelVDP]

by the way, just wanted to point out a little "buff" that heavies got that get almost overlooked:
they are very hard to cross up (making their defenses slightly better)

(cross ups in general are a thing I think should get explored more in this game, just food for thought)

 

[Scarlet Spyder]

With a lot of this Ike talk I don’t think we’re giving MkLeo the respect he deserves by asking for nerfs so fast. He played 3 perfect games in a row spacing wise and movement wise

I agree. People seem to have forgotten how good this man is with a Fire Emblem swordy. His Smash 4 Marth was super good and it is not surprising to see him take the whole tournament with Ike. If anything, MKLeo has mastered the fundamentals (like you mentioned) and Ike is clearly a good character with a ridiculously good nair.

However, I think it is way too early to talk about nerfs. There's plenty of character diversity on a weekly basis and next week people will be complaining about another character (Inkling Roller anyone?). I think the metagame is developing well and players will continue to adapt to things like Ike's nair. My only fear is that the balance team jumps the gun (with nerfs) before the metagame is able to settle. I think it would be better to continue the trend they started in Ultimate and buff weaker characters. Also, I can't wait to see Pirahna Plant make his debut!

 

[MG_3989]

I agree. People seem to have forgotten how good this man is with a Fire Emblem swordy. His Smash 4 Marth was super good and it is not surprising to see him take the whole tournament with Ike. If anything, MKLeo has mastered the fundamentals (like you mentioned) and Ike is clearly a good character with a ridiculously good nair.

However, I think it is way too early to talk about nerfs. There's plenty of character diversity on a weekly basis and next week people will be complaining about another character (Inkling Roller anyone?). I think the metagame is developing well and players will continue to adapt to things like Ike's nair. My only fear is that the balance team jumps the gun (with nerfs) before the metagame is able to settle. I think it would be better to continue the trend they started in Ultimate and buff weaker characters. Also, I can't wait to see Pirahna Plant make his debut!

I would assume (hopefully) Nintendo is listening to pro players and not the community on issues like this because I haven’t heard one pro player say that Ike needs a nerf

 

[Rocketjay8]

by the way, just wanted to point out a little "buff" that heavies got that get almost overlooked:
they are very hard to cross up (making their defenses slightly better)

(cross ups in general are a thing I think should get explored more in this game, just food for thought)

Is it because running through opponents is no longer a thing?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I would assume (hopefully) Nintendo is listening to pro players and not the community on issues like this because I haven’t heard one pro player say that Ike needs a nerf

Na they shouldn't listen to pros.

 

[MG_3989]

Na they shouldn't listen to pros.

I mean the pros would want to swing things in their favor but they certainly know more about the game than we do here. I didn’t think of bias being an issues though

 

[Ffamran]

Is it because running through opponents is no longer a thing?

That, and frame 3 jumps. The most extreme cases being Bowser and Snake. Bowser used to have frame 8 jumps and Snake had frame 9 jumps, the highest in the series. Granted, Snake isn't a superheavy. The rest of the heavies clocked around frame 6 to 7 for their jump. Halving to dropping it to two thirds it takes for the heavyweights and other characters with high jump frames like Corrin, Falco, Jigglypuff, and Zelda to jump really helps out. Many of the heavyweights actually have fast aerials. Ganondorf is the easiest example since he's based on Captain Falcon and more or less shares the same startup frames for his aerials as Captain Falcon.

So, now you can't just run past them, but you also can't jump over them or anyone else really when they can jump just fast and maybe even put out an aerial faster than you can.

Jump frames for the series: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Jump.

 

[KakuCP9]

I mean the pros would want to swing things in their favor but they certainly know more about the game than we do here. I didn’t think of bias being an issues though

Daily reminder that just because someone is really really good at a game doesn't mean they know what is good for it ( I can count on one hand the pro players I'd trust balance the game. Hell, I'd sooner trust some folks here more than the pros). Also, I don't think people here are calling for nerfs, most of us just feel that Ike's n-air is super centralizing/unhealthy in the long run and would genuinely want a more well rounded and strong character (for what its worth, I think Chrom/Roy are still better than current Ike). If you want to yell at people crying for nerfs, go on leddit or Twitter where people actually ***** about that stuff.

 

[MG_3989]

Daily reminder that just because someone is really really good at a game doesn't mean they know what is good for it ( I can count on one hand the pro players I'd trust balance the game. Hell, I'd sooner trust some folks here more than the pros). Also, I don't think people here are calling for nerfs, most of us just feel that Ike's n-air is super centralizing/unhealthy in the long run and would genuinely want a more well rounded and strong character (for what its worth, I think Chrom/Roy are still better than current Ike). If you want to yell at people crying for nerfs, go on leddit or Twitter where people actually ***** about that stuff.

I wasn’t trying to yell at anybody, there was a discussion going on. And yeah I realized that about pros after I posted it

 

[LightLV]

Peach didnt have anything busted in smash4. Her hitboxes are the same roughly

Well that's really what i meant. Most characters in this game have had their hitboxes very drastically toned down. In Smash4, everyone had really stupid range for some reason....Sheik, Mario, Falcon, ect. I get hit by peach at times where it feels like i really shouldn't be getting hit by Peach.

With a lot of this Ike talk I don’t think we’re giving MkLeo the respect he deserves by asking for nerfs so fast. He played 3 perfect games in a row spacing wise and movement wise

Well i mean yeah, nobody knew how to deal with his crap. That happens in every fighting game....especially one that hasn't even been out for 2 months yet. Still too early to call for nerfs.

That, and frame 3 jumps. The most extreme cases being Bowser and Snake. Bowser used to have frame 8 jumps and Snake had frame 9 jumps, the highest in the series. Granted, Snake isn't a superheavy. The rest of the heavies clocked around frame 6 to 7 for their jump. Halving to dropping it to two thirds it takes for the heavyweights and other characters with high jump frames like Corrin, Falco, Jigglypuff, and Zelda to jump really helps out. Many of the heavyweights actually have fast aerials. Ganondorf is the easiest example since he's based on Captain Falcon and more or less shares the same startup frames for his aerials as Captain Falcon.

So, now you can't just run past them, but you also can't jump over them or anyone else really when they can jump just fast and maybe even put out an aerial faster than you can.

Jump frames for the series: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Jump.

I must be like one of the only people who enjoys the no crossup change. Anything that helps strengthen the concept of stage control.

Coming into Ultimate they also gave Fox some suspicious buffs, and that's before you consider how much this game's environment benefits him. But overall though the balance is looking exceptionally good. This is the first Smash game where I don't feel tempted to skip matches involving zoning characters. I used to hate watching Mega Man, Peach, Villager, and the like, but this time I'm perfectly fine with it. And I'm not sure why exactly. Probably because finding that one opening now yields more reward against them, and projectile edge-guarding is also way stronger. Before these matches were a slug-fest of neutral resets.

I think it's because the momentum properly shifts in this game. Since generally everyone has a decent "turn" when they're on advantage now, fighting zoners is less frustrating because you can properly drill them over once you finally catch them now.

Before it was just, catch them, get your hit, go back to netural. Everyone recovered so damn easily in Smash 4, but in Ultimate, if you're off the stage you're (FINALLY) in real danger of not making it back.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

With a lot of this Ike talk I don’t think we’re giving MkLeo the respect he deserves by asking for nerfs so fast. He played 3 perfect games in a row spacing wise and movement wise

Yeah, I feel like people are forgetting MKLeo is just really good. Ryo got 33rd using Ike, and he's an Ike veteran, so it's not like the character is a problem.

 

[Kellojolly]

Yeah, I feel like people are forgetting MKLeo is just really good. Ryo got 33rd using Ike, and he's an Ike veteran, so it's not like the character is a problem.

I agree. Ike looks very powerful but he also seems extremely linear in his play style since his gameplay is centralized solely on his NAIR to start anything. MkLeo really is truly amazing in his fundamental skills. He's so good at spacing and punishing. It's crazy! I may also start playing Cloud since he seems cool and he doesn't seem to be too easy to play even though I still don't know what tier he will be in in the long run lol.

 

[Tesh]

On the subject of Ike, people once again saying "this is overpowered and needs a nerf" when they are actually feeling "i didn't have fun playing or watching this.

It was the same with Inkling Roller.

I'm not saying MKLeo has picked the worst character in the game, but Ike is being overrated because he is repetitive and frustrating.

 

[Rizen]

YLink is straight rushdown, you use his projectiles to open people up but once you get in, you just push your advantage until you knock them off. Typical issue with characters like Ylink on this game is that he lacks hard, single-strike kill options that aren't unsafe, and he's light so you have to REALLY push your advantage against heavies/hard hitters.

This I disagree with. YL has tons of kill confirms like bomb>Usmash, Dtilt>Dair, early boomerang>Dair, Bair1>Usmash, Fair1>Dsmash. If you were talking about T's GFs vs Ken, T got downloaded hard that set. Sonic got to high %s and T ended up fishing for Usmashes. To be fair T beat Ken in the winner's finals. A much better example is T vs Fatality. T does a good job showing off YL's kill confirms, especially the last 2 games.


I agree heavies do better in this game; although part of that is people aren't great at parrying and recognizing punish opportunities yet.

 

[KakuCP9]

I fail to see how parrying will stop Bowser, Ridley and DK from beating you up and stealing your lunch money (K.Rool and Ganon still struggle with/without parries).

 

[williamsga555]

(stuff about TL setups)

You're right, YL has loads of kill confirms in his kit from a variety of different starters, most of which are completely non-committal and are flexible enough to account for different DI patterns. He's quite blessed with setup potential across the board.

...that being said, LightLV's main point was he lacks good raw killing options, much akin to Sheik or Diddy in 4. YL's stock closing is almost entirely reliant on setups because his raw options are either too weak or far too unsafe to throw out. Whether or not that really matters is a different story, however.

 

[Heracr055]

I'm glad that Salem did as well as he did despite his recent controversy and using Link; that should definitely shush his critics who complain he was carried in 4 by Bayo (any anyone calling him washed at this point is an idiot).

 

[Rizen]

You're right, TL has loads of kill confirms in his kit from a variety of different starters, most of which are completely non-committal and are flexible enough to account for different DI patterns. He's quite blessed with setup potential across the board.

...that being said, LightLV's main point was he lacks good raw killing options, much akin to Sheik or Diddy in 4. TL's stock closing is almost entirely reliant on setups because his raw options are either too weak or far too unsafe to throw out. Whether or not that really matters is a different story, however.

You mean YL? Even in terms of raw options, YL's not too bad off. Fair and Dair are hard to punish and Dsmash is f9, only 1 frame later than Dtilt (but laggier).

 

[AxelVDP]

Is it because running through opponents is no longer a thing?

that's not really what I was referring to, I mean that's also true but it's a universal thing
what heavies have is (I guess I should have called them "biggies") a very large hurtbox, which is usually just a bad thing BUT it makes corossing them up with dash attacks and aerials much harder, if not impossible in some cases (conversely, small characters are much easier to cross up)

not having to deal with crossup mixups makes it much harder for the opponent to space their moves in a way they can't be punished (and, as Ffamran said, they now have access to quicker OoS option compared to the past) and makes it harder to open up their defenses

 

[Ziodyne 21]

On the topic of Cloud, while he looked really good this tournament, Anti had this to say about the character.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

It tends to be easy to get caught up in the optics of how good a character is once you set aside how much is demanded from them.

Well technically the same thing goes for Chrom, and he most likely has a worse recovery than Cloud. Start making mistakes as Chrom offstage, you are not going to have a good time.

I am starting to think Chrom may be just the teeniest bit overrated. but he is still very very good .Not sure about Cloud at this point, but I cant see him being worse than upper-mid tier even adding nerves and human error into to equation

 

[Gladiat0r]

So you basically just completely ignored what Ryu and Ken want to do and then randomly name dropped a strong character.

I will not get into how good either character might be because honestly, I have no idea. But what you said made no sense what so ever.

Ryu was never good at edge guarding and his recovery was always linear.

So are you saying it's better to play a character that is good at those things or?

The way you worded this sounds silly.

"Pichu is bad at zoning out characters with buttons even though that is not actually his game, so just play Chrom."

You read that? Sounds silly right?

Saying they suck was too far but have they had any results? I think with a ton of work and tech, Ken can be above average but hardly seems worth it at the competitive level.