Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Garo]

I can at least somewhat understand the rest, butand in the yuck-tier of down specials seems questionable. Does someone have any insight?

 

[blackghost]

Little is going to change in perspective. People are still going to treat as the literal garbage dumpster of Smash Ultimate who should be lucky he's even considered to get out of the same garbage tier as someone like Ganondorf, Mac or Dr. Mario. But Kazuya will always be this awesome, epic, insane High Tier beast of a monster even though his best players couldn't get higher than 33rd and his second best player 49th.

And don't get me wrong, 33rd is a solid placement, but it's amazing how much leeway Kazuya gets. People either need to get this inconsistent S.O.B out of High Tier, or we need to push 90% of the cast in so called Mid , up a tier.

i thought someone was going to argue this really no one?

ok.

Besides the fact that we have already discussed that this games chaarcters are MUCH closer in strength than any other game DK still belongs near the bottom. you cannot judge a character by their advantage state strictly dk disadvantage is so bad that it drags him to the lower ends of the game. Kazuya doesn get leeway we've seen what kazuya does when he gets MUs in his favor and even when he doesnt the character is so scary and explosive he demands repect at all times. not to be blunt but dk doesnt. kazuya electric is better than dk entire kit.

kazuya has placed in top 8 in a major. dk hasnt.

calling riddles the second best kazuya at this point is not accurate he has chosen to go the easier route and just play roy pretty much. it kinda reflects how his popularity and viewership went down.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I can at least somewhat understand the rest, butand in the yuck-tier of down specials seems questionable. Does someone have any insight?

Even after the buffs to make the strike hit faster, 's Long-Stem Strike is very slow and easy to avoid. Additionally, Plant's hurtbox is out for the whole stem, meaning you can even get hit for going for it. I'll give that it can work at times, but I agree with Esam's opinion that it belongs in yuck. Just too darn slow to be any good.

 

[Gleam]

FIrstly, Kazuya really only gets Top 8's in regionals and his best only stands around the Top 16's in majors. To act like Kazuya is this Top 8 monster in majors is just plain false. Not to mention the sporadic and inconsistent nature of his playerbase as a whole, with numbers ranging from Top 16 to Top 64 or higher.

But hey, even Top 16 is good, and being consistent in both regionals and majors is still something to be proud of. The problem is that Kazuya (and others) are given a leeyway due to perception and apparently theory that is not given to others. Even when their very numbers are similar if not superior in nature.

How many people are willing to give that same level of attention to characters like Ridley, who also gets Top 8's in several regionals and Top 16s in several majors?

How many have times does Fatality have to get Top 8 in regionals, majors and nationals who, along with a few other players, has pushed Falcon to be a Top 10 character in Orion before people finally call him Top Tier?

How many (bare) Top 16s to 24s does Naskino need to make before people can at least call Zelda mid tier?

How many times does KirbyKid need to get Top 24s or higher before people can admit that Rool might be a Mid Tier?

There are plenty of characters who perform in the same vein as Kazuya, sometimes of greater results, sometimes of equal and sometimes of lower. But are not given the same level of perception and respect they would, whatever tier their specific results might usually match up to.

But hey, I guess when Brr gets his results with Kazuya, it's a notion of just how good the character is. But when Mezcaul does the same with Ridley, I feel people have to push themselves just to get him into the bare minimum of Mid Tier.

Also, we're not talking about Donkey Kong getting Top 8. Nobody here is saying Donkey Kong should be high tier. In fact I wouldn't hold it against anyone if their initial impression of Kong may have waned from the past to now. It's the fact that Donkey Kong has, from my perceptional, ALWAYS been treated as this incredibly inferior character even back when he was producing decent results that would at least met him as a common Mid Tier.

 

[Arthur97]

Sucks to be unpopular. lol

But seriously, results in this game aren't that important for judging tiers.

Then how would you rank them? Subjective theory crafting alone which without evidence to back it up is pretty meaningless? Much like in science, you can come up with all the theories you want, but you're supposed to eventually back it up with evidence if possible.

FIrstly, Kazuya really only gets Top 8's in regionals and his best only stands around the Top 16's in majors. To act like Kazuya is this Top 8 monster in majors is just plain false. Not to mention the sporadic and inconsistent nature of his playerbase as a whole, with numbers ranging from Top 16 to Top 64 or higher.

But hey, even Top 16 is good, and being consistent in both regionals and majors is still something to be proud of. The problem is that Kazuya (and others) are given a leeyway due to perception and apparently theory that is not given to others. Even when their very numbers are similar if not superior in nature.

How many people are willing to give that same level of attention to characters like Ridley, who also gets Top 8's in several regionals and Top 16s in several majors?

How many have times does Fatality have to get Top 8 in regionals, majors and nationals who, along with a few other players, has pushed Falcon to be a Top 10 character in Orion before people finally call him Top Tier?

How many (bare) Top 16s to 24s does Naskino need to make before people can at least call Zelda mid tier?

How many times does KirbyKid need to get Top 24s or higher before people can admit that Rool might be a Mid Tier?

There are plenty of characters who perform in the same vein as Kazuya, sometimes of greater results, sometimes of equal and sometimes of lower. But are not given the same level of perception and respect they would, whatever tier their specific results might usually match up to.

But hey, I guess when Brr gets his results with Kazuya, it's a notion of just how good the character is. But when Mezcaul does the same with Ridley, I feel people have to push themselves just to get him into the bare minimum of Mid Tier.

Also, we're not talking about Donkey Kong getting Top 8. Nobody here is saying Donkey Kong should be high tier. In fact I wouldn't hold it against anyone if their initial impression of Kong may have waned from the past to now. It's the fact that Donkey Kong has, from my perceptional, ALWAYS been treated as this incredibly inferior character even back when he was producing decent results that would at least met him as a common Mid Tier.

DK may also suffer from the loss of the Ding Dong so people just kinda...assume he's awful in combination with something I've mentioned before in that people generally don't seem to like to change any long held notions be those about specific fighters or archtypes in general. Then there's also somehow still apparently this notion that DLC in this game is busted. Despite most of them not making much of a splash.

 

[blackghost]

FIrstly, Kazuya really only gets Top 8's in regionals and his best only stands around the Top 16's in majors. To act like Kazuya is this Top 8 monster in majors is just plain false. Not to mention the sporadic and inconsistent nature of his playerbase as a whole, with numbers ranging from Top 16 to Top 64 or higher.

But hey, even Top 16 is good, and being consistent in both regionals and majors is still something to be proud of. The problem is that Kazuya (and others) are given a leeyway due to perception and apparently theory that is not given to others. Even when their very numbers are similar if not superior in nature.

How many people are willing to give that same level of attention to characters like Ridley, who also gets Top 8's in several regionals and Top 16s in several majors?

How many have times does Fatality have to get Top 8 in regionals, majors and nationals who, along with a few other players, has pushed Falcon to be a Top 10 character in Orion before people finally call him Top Tier?

How many (bare) Top 16s to 24s does Naskino need to make before people can at least call Zelda mid tier?

How many times does KirbyKid need to get Top 24s or higher before people can admit that Rool might be a Mid Tier?

There are plenty of characters who perform in the same vein as Kazuya, sometimes of greater results, sometimes of equal and sometimes of lower. But are not given the same level of perception and respect they would, whatever tier their specific results might usually match up to.

But hey, I guess when Brr gets his results with Kazuya, it's a notion of just how good the character is. But when Mezcaul does the same with Ridley, I feel people have to push themselves just to get him into the bare minimum of Mid Tier.

Also, we're not talking about Donkey Kong getting Top 8. Nobody here is saying Donkey Kong should be high tier. In fact I wouldn't hold it against anyone if their initial impression of Kong may have waned from the past to now. It's the fact that Donkey Kong has, from my perceptional, ALWAYS been treated as this incredibly inferior character even back when he was producing decent results that would at least met him as a common Mid Tier.

Fatality is a case of the player who's flaws and playstyle prevent him from winning. It's not falcon it's fatality. He makes bad decisions (more accurately he's too aggressive and top players prey on that and smoke him for it)

If a charcater is consitently placing in regionals then that character should be looked at as high tier.. the problem is character have vastly different number of players. How many falcons, kirbys, and ddd players are there vs how many Top? There may be one Kazuya player in any given event.

Next if dk had results in the past (like ike did) it's mainly viewed as us not understanding the game early on. Could be right could be wrong but thats how it is.
And as we have seen with byleth produce enough results or dominate well enough and people will eventually reconsider thier placements.
The thing with Kazuya vs all these other characters you named (especially falcon) is they have playerbases that dwarf Kazuya so anything Kazuya mainly comes down to 3 to 5 players. So we aren't even guaranteed to get footage of matches from Kazuya and then we get a high level showing and it feels like the character came from no where.

Kazuya mainly floats in the high tier area becuase when you go down the list of tools and options the character is just absurd. Far more tools thanRidley, Kirby, klk, and many others. Personally I think peoppe really don't understand how many options he has in any given moment. Especially if people are gonna try and compare him with dk.

 

[Djmarcus44]

blackghost Thanks for saving me some time by bringing up playerbase size, but Kazuya's high tier status could be in question if his results don't pick up. He currently 75th on OrionStats with fewer points than Mii Swordfighter.

A Arthur97 I already broke down how to make good theoretical assessments in my previous post. Some of the key points are assessing strengths relative to the cast and assessing how these tools interact with each other with matchups. While DK has had some mid tier level placements in the past, he is currently 68th on OrionStats behind Lucario and tied with Bowser Jr. The character also has a decent amount of popularity as an exciting character that has been in every Smash Bros game. His results could pick up later, but he is also off to a slow start.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1gRlzy4z_dpqb2ZRhGoqtbDcuvUKz_ROsMZHGegon53M/htmlview#

 

[Arthur97]

blackghost Thanks for saving me some time by bringing up playerbase size, but Kazuya's high tier status could be in question if his results don't pick up. He currently 75th on OrionStats with fewer points than Mii Swordfighter.

A Arthur97 I already broke down how to make good theoretical assessments in my previous post. Some of the key points are assessing strengths relative to the cast and assessing how these tools interact with each other with matchups. While DK has had some mid tier level placements in the past, he is currently 68th on OrionStats behind Lucario and tied with Bowser Jr. The character also has a decent amount of popularity as an exciting character that has been in every Smash Bros game. His results could pick up later, but he is also off to a slow start.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1gRlzy4z_dpqb2ZRhGoqtbDcuvUKz_ROsMZHGegon53M/htmlview#

You can make good theoretical assessments, but, again, if they are never really backed up, it doesn't mean much. Theory on its own is more a fun exercise than anything concrete. Yes, pure results has its problems too, but at least it is concrete and substantial. Both have their place, but somehow people seem to be valuing theory for certain fighters far too heavily. If you had to pick only one to base it off of, for all its faults, results are at least proof of concept.

 

[Sucumbio]

I think each character ends up being placed in similar tiers but for different reasons and this leads to ambiguity which is something people don't want so it ends up feeling contrived.

Aegis for example is either THE best character or top 3, top 5 etc because their kit is incredible, easier to learn and win with in terms of learning curve and execution, and they're winning majors consistently.

Pikachu on the other hand is considered top 3, top 5 but for far fewer of those reasons. They don't have many major 1st place placements, have a steep learning curve and are difficult to execute consistently... Pikachu's kit is powerful indeed but if that's the only reason to place them so high it's no wonder so many people think it's not even true he's a top 3 character any more or if he ever was.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Spoiler

But no, no chance DK could be a decent mid tier, right?

 

[Rizen]

Spoiler

But no, no chance DK could be a decent mid tier, right?

Super heavies can have surprisingly good MUs against Wolf, although I doubt any of them win. They like to play at the same range as he does and often have good movement speed. Wolf out-damages them but they're a lot heavier and that makes up for it.

 

[F4lcoMain]

On the subject of super heavyweights, is D3's ledge trapping really as oppressive as it was in D3 Will & Leon's match is that just a matchup inexperience / a character specific issue?

 

[The_Bookworm]

On the subject of super heavyweights, is D3's ledge trapping really as oppressive as it was in D3 Will & Leon's match is that just a matchup inexperience / a character specific issue?

It was definitely inexperience. LeoN literally choose the one option that would get him hit by the Gordo each time, instead of fighting back (ledge attack or ledge drop forward air), ledge jump, or literally anything else expect for the one option that would result in him getting hit.

Larger characters does have more issues escaping the ledge trap than most other characters, but LeoN definitely had options.

 

[F4lcoMain]

It was definitely inexperience. LeoN literally choose the one option that would get him hit by the Gordo each time, instead of fighting back (ledge attack or ledge drop forward air), ledge jump, or literally anything else expect for the one option that would result in him getting hit.

Larger characters does have more issues escaping the ledge trap than most other characters, but LeoN definitely had options.

To be fair, D3 WIll spaced the Gordo move so he would never get hit by Bowser's getup attack. I also believe that the Gordo would have caught his double jump, though I might wrong.

I do understand why Leon was scared of choosing any other option since he is more likely to lose his stock if he gets hit by the Gordo than the F-tilt.

 

[StrangeKitten]

On the subject of super heavyweights, is D3's ledge trapping really as oppressive as it was in D3 Will & Leon's match is that just a matchup inexperience / a character specific issue?

I'd say a bit of both. There were options LeoN had to mitigate the ledgetrapping at least somewhat, but, as a Bowser main, it's difficult to get around Gordos. They just interact kinda funky with Bowser, in the sense that they are difficult to swat away more often than not. I think it's Bowser's large hurtbox that makes it kinda easy to misjudge exactly how Gordos will hit you. Misspace you fair, nair, ftilt, what have you, and big ol Bowser gets bonked. Combine that with Flame Breath actually not deflecting Gordos (it pulls Gordos in and you get hit by them), and you get a matchup that is imo +1 for Dedede. I'd say it might just be a me issue with Gordos, but considering LeoN also had trouble in that department, perhaps not.

 

[Frihetsanka]

But no, no chance DK could be a decent mid tier, right?

I looked at my tier list, and in order for Donkey Kong to not be bottom 17 he'd have to be better than 6 of the following characters:

Is it possible? I suppose, although you could probably argue results for most of these to some extent as well. At the end of the day, some characters will have to be bottom 17, some will be bottom 5, etc etc. You could, I suppose, draw the line between mid tier and low tier earlier, though I don't know how strong a bottom 17 mid tier would be.

Big D has some results with Ice Climbers. Who is better, Ice Climbers or Donkey Kong? Raito has some results with Duck Hunt. Who is better, Duck Hunt or Donkey Kong? Incineroar is starting to see some results, etc etc. At the end of the day, some characters will end up being not as strong as other characters, especially in a game with 80+ characters. Even bottom 17 characters in this game should not be slept on, though.

Am I saying that Donkey Kong is definitely low tier? Eh, not really. Aside from a few obvious cases, like Ganondorf, Little Mac, and Isabelle, it's fairly hard to properly access the low tiers in this game. Even someone like Dr. Mario has some pretty decent results in Japan, and characters like Kirby and Piranha Plant and Bowser Jr. etc get results here and there. I bet you could find someone arguing for each of them being mid tier as well.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

The true reality is that everyone bar Little Mac and Ganon in this game can do well. DK IMO is bottom 15-bottom 10, not because he's necessarily bad and can't get results, just that there's better characters.

In any case results for a Japanese offline invitational that happened.

1. Shuton
2. acola
3. Yaura
4. HERO
5. Luminous
5. Kome
7. Rarukun
7. Raito

is continuing to do really well. I'm glad I put this character recently in my top 20.

 

[Arthur97]

I agree with that to a degree, but there does seem to be an issue with consistency in that theory is more heavily weighted for some. Like the example of Aegis girls vs Pikachu. The girls have a lot going for them. Pikachu has...mostly just theory yet a not insignificant amount of people parrot Pikachu as the best or at least top 3. Why? Well, other than gotta get views/not thinking it through. And that's just perhaps the worst example. This kind of thing can potentially happen across the tiers.

Speaking of tiers, they may genuinely be somewhat outdated since, yes, most can do good things. Even Mac has seen more success than most probably thought he'd ever see. At the very least "low" tier doesn't seem to mean what it used to. It's a relative thing, I get that, but not everyone may.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Something I want to bring up is the presence of low mobility : high reward characters in the current meta.
Ever since quarantine ended, we have began to see increased success for characters with low mobility, but high reward up close, such as .

While Kazuya's success is a fairly sparse right now (and Luigi's until Elegant starts going to big tournaments again), the other three has been put in a bigger spotlight thanks to MkLeo, Skyjay, and recently Jake with his Glitch performance.

While having low mobility is not neccessarily the death sentence for a character, it is usually a flaw big enough that many low mobility characters in past Smash entries just simply flop in terms of viability.
Smash Ultimate, especially in the post-quarantine meta, seems to be the game where low mobility characters seem to have the most success in.

Has certain trends in the meta favor these characters, or do you guys think players are simply not approaching these matchups correctly?

 

[Frihetsanka]

I think Pikachu's main issue is a lack of top players. It seems to me that he has fewer top players compared to many other characters. It's not like a ton of top players are playing Pikachu and failing to get results. But if Pikachu is top 3, why aren't more people playing him? Well, ESAM seems to think it has to do with two things: Firstly, this game is somewhat balanced and you can get pretty good results with top 30, even top 40 characters, and there is therefore less incentive to switch to Pikachu when they can just continue playing their Smash 4 main, or an Ultimate newcomer, etc. Secondly, Pikachu is very demanding to play as well as one of the most technical characters in the game. It would be easier to learn someone like Pyra/Mythra, Roy, ROB, Palutena, Wolf, etc.

We should keep in mind that it took years for Melee to cement Fox as the #1 character, so it's not unprecedented that a technical character eventually is perceived as #1. I personally think it's Pyra & Mythra but they've been out for less than a year (and with a lack of tournaments due to covid) so it's hard to say.

Regarding low mobility characters, there have been two podcasts recently talking about this subject, and they do seem to be leaning towards mobility not being as important as it used to be. Personally I think having good burst options often makes up for having meh mobility (such as Corrin).

Podcast with Tweek, Charles, Pink Fresh, Hazmatt: https://youtu.be/DpLYjqmtueo?t=3231

Podcast with Cosmos, MkLeo, Charles (parts of it are about mobility): https://youtu.be/6z17as4rd80

Speaking of the latter video, more and more people seem to be thinking Corrin lower high tier, and I think they may be right. I imagine she could be in a similar situation as Byleth if Pyra/Mythra hadn't been released (Cosmos Corrin would've likely gotten good results with her, although probably not as good as with Pyra/Mythra, potential #1 character vs low high tier is still significantly higher).

Will MkLeo ever use Corrin in a tournament? Based on the way he's talked about it, it seems a bit unlikely, since he already has a solid core with Byleth (his favorite character) and Pyra/Mythra (arguably the best character in the game). If he does use her it's probably either because he wants to prove that she's solid, or because he wants to try it for some specific matchup.

Will Cosmos use Corrin? I don't think he will, because he's usually a solo main kind of player, and Pyra/Mythra is one of the best, if not the best, solo main character in the game. He did consider it at the end of the Corrin-talk video so there's a possibility, but I remain doubtful.

Ly seems to use Corrin still but seems to be using Byleth a bit more, so we'll see what happens there. Pink Fresh has been using some Corrin lately, I'm not sure how serious he is about her but he thinks she's high tier. My gut feeling is he won't play her for too long, she's not better than the top tiers he used to play. And there's SHADIC, of course, the #1 solo main. SHADIC is a very young player (born 2007, turning 15 in a few months) but he's shown some promise, with good wins vs players like MuteAce and Scend, and ranked #3 in Texas (under MuteAce and Lima).

Will Corrin ever get the results she "deserves"? Probably not. Losing her best Smash 4 players (Cosmos, Zackray, Frozen, Ryuga, Space) hurts. Facing competition from Pyra/Mythra, Sephiroth, Lucina, Roy, Chrom, Shulk, even Byleth, also hurts. This game is not lacking in strong sword characters, and Corrin, while solid, doesn't stand out as much as most other sword fighters (arguably only Lucina is more vanilla, but she's also stronger). It doesn't help that Corrin started Ultimate with one of the worst recoveries in the game, making her fairly unviable. The early buffs helped but few people picked her up. The 8.0.0 buffs are what really helped her push into high tier (I don't think she quite was before, her numbers were a bit lacking), but at that point it was probably too late, most players already had their mains, and even with her buffs Corrin is only better than a few other sword fighters (such as Robin and Ike, maybe Sora, and those characters have a more loyal playerbase). It probably doesn't help that Corrin wasn't a very popular character in Smash 4 either (a game where she was either lower top tier or upper high tier), and that many people dislike Fire Emblem Fates and dislike Corrin as a character in that game (interestingly enough, Cosmos never played Fates).

Speaking on a personal level, why did I drop Corrin? Well... Sephiroth was released, and he was clearly a better character, while also being very fun. I also like having players to watch, and at the time Cosmos had stopped streaming, so I didn't have much Corrin footage to watch.

I could go into more depth on why I think Corrin is high tier rather than mid tier, low tier, or top tier, but this post is getting long enough. Perhaps at a later date.

 

[F4lcoMain]

Something I want to bring up is the presence of low mobility : high reward characters in the current meta.
Ever since quarantine ended, we have began to see increased success for characters with low mobility, but high reward up close, such as .

While Kazuya's success is a fairly sparse right now (and Luigi's until Elegant starts going to big tournaments again), the other three has been put in a bigger spotlight thanks to MkLeo, Skyjay, and recently Jake with his Glitch performance.

While having low mobility is not neccessarily the death sentence for a character, it is usually a flaw big enough that many low mobility characters in past Smash entries just simply flop in terms of viability.
Smash Ultimate, especially in the post-quarantine meta, seems to be the game where low mobility characters seem to have the most success in.

Has certain trends in the meta favor these characters, or do you guys think players are simply not approaching these matchups correctly?

Another character to mention here is Falco, who has been seeing greater success lately w/ Tilde and Masa.

That being said, I don't think mobility in this game is that important except at high level play when the opponent is willing to camp. And even then, low mobility characters usually have the tools to deal with that either with an explosive punish game, good range, good frame data, burst options or lame projectiles of their own. In Steve's case, camping against him is arguably bad since he can just mine for resources.

Something important to consider is that Wolf has been one of the popular in this game since launch. While his air mobility is good, his dashing speed is not that much better than the characters you listed, yet he still is able to achieve good results in spite of this.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Something I want to bring up is the presence of low mobility : high reward characters in the current meta.
Ever since quarantine ended, we have began to see increased success for characters with low mobility, but high reward up close, such as .

While Kazuya's success is a fairly sparse right now (and Luigi's until Elegant starts going to big tournaments again), the other three has been put in a bigger spotlight thanks to MkLeo, Skyjay, and recently Jake with his Glitch performance.

While having low mobility is not neccessarily the death sentence for a character, it is usually a flaw big enough that many low mobility characters in past Smash entries just simply flop in terms of viability.
Smash Ultimate, especially in the post-quarantine meta, seems to be the game where low mobility characters seem to have the most success in.

Has certain trends in the meta favor these characters, or do you guys think players are simply not approaching these matchups correctly?

I simply think we got better at overcoming our downside of low mobility. When I think back to the beginning of 2020 compared to now, the strides I've made as an Incin main are staggering. I don't think I could quite place a finger on what it is exactly, I guess just developing a better sense of how to move and what attacks to use where (important in the case of Incin, as dash attack and Side B are moves that get you further than your slow run).

While I can't speak much for the other characters as the only one I dabble in is Byleth and it's been some time since I've worked on my Byleth, I will say that Byleth is pretty intimidating to face as most characters simply due to the range on their moves.

Steve forces you to approach simply by design, which is not something I'd say is true of many characters, if any others. You wanna prevent him from mining, which he's in a favorable position to do from the word GO! because you spawn pretty far apart. Blocks and minecart only make approaching him trickier, and Sakurai was lying when he said Steve lacked range. His disjointed tools do well enough against all but the most extreme range. I think that's why he's really strong in the meta right now, and I'm very curious to see more counterplay develop and how much that will affect him.

 

[superjm]

Something I want to bring up is the presence of low mobility : high reward characters in the current meta.
Ever since quarantine ended, we have began to see increased success for characters with low mobility, but high reward up close, such as .

While Kazuya's success is a fairly sparse right now (and Luigi's until Elegant starts going to big tournaments again), the other three has been put in a bigger spotlight thanks to MkLeo, Skyjay, and recently Jake with his Glitch performance.

While having low mobility is not neccessarily the death sentence for a character, it is usually a flaw big enough that many low mobility characters in past Smash entries just simply flop in terms of viability.
Smash Ultimate, especially in the post-quarantine meta, seems to be the game where low mobility characters seem to have the most success in.

Has certain trends in the meta favor these characters, or do you guys think players are simply not approaching these matchups correctly?

I think calling Steve a "low mobility" character is slightly misleading. Yes, his general mobility stats are very bad and no one will mistake him for being quick and evasive but his access to minecart, dair, and blocks gives him deceptively high control of his own movement in a way that a lot of characters simply can't match. He has an extremely potent horizontal burst option that moves him across the stage very quickly. One that he can just jump out of whenever. His dair cancels his aerial momentum completely and gives him a pseudo dive kick that allows him to reach the ground quickly... and he can also just jump out of that whenever as well. And his blocks are pretty self-explanatory. Heck, Steves are even using up-B onstage as a secondary low-profile burst option in situations where minecart would be stuffed, and seeing that in action is very scary since it can combo into up smash for some dumb reason.

The important part about those options is that, up-B aside, Steve doesn't have to commit beyond the initial startup. Blocks require no investment in the first place beyond resources. Minecart is a Wonderwing-esque burst option that Steve can just bail out of if they so please (and suddenly turn it into a command grab because Sakurai is a mad man, but that's a different topic). Dair is a stall-then-fall aerial that completely circumvents the primary weakness of those class of moves because, again, Steve can just bail out with a jump at any time. Or, crucially, he can also let those two options ride if he so pleases, taking advantage of the mobility those two moves afford them. It's the best of both worlds and being able to control his movement in this way makes up a lot for his other movement deficiencies.

I think as far as his success goes, my reckoning is that it was theorized that Steve would simply not have the resources to make use of these options as the meta developed. He was too slow, characters would swarm him and prevent him from mining, it wouldn't hold up over the course of the match was what was thought. And it really hasn't developed that way at all so what we're seeing is a character that, for the most part, has access to all of his strongest options throughout the match. And we're seeing the results of that play out.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Thinking more about it, most low-mobility characters have things to help them out a lot in neutral. has zair that can lead to his lethal grab game, fireballs, green missile (committal but I'm sure it has its uses, including early kills if you get a misfire and your opponent doesn't/can't react fast enough), and cyclone. has pills, cape to deflect projectiles, and tornado. has flame choke and wizard's foot for what they're worth. has, as I mentioned, dash attack and alolan whip, in addition to arm intangibility on darkest lariat and revenge being a frame three counter. has a couple projectiles so he can just stand back and toss em out from time to time, in addition to an armored nair for landing and an armored dash attack. likewise has pot armor on its dash attack, armor on long-stem strike, and doesn't mind sitting back and throwing out a ptooie and/or poison cloud from time to time. has probably the best range of anyone not named Min Min or Sephiroth, which includes an fsmash that kills mad early if tippered at ledge, good burst options in nair and dash attack, and you'll catch people with your slow arrow on rare occasion. has his dash shenanigans, a dumb amount of armor on moves, a command grab, and zany EWGF combos. , as mentioned, is hard to even consider him a low-mobility character because he doesn't mind chilling in the corner and mining, and can put his strong burst options to use when the need arises.

I think it's pretty easy to see why high-mobility characters were and still are very strong. Overwhelming your opponent with speed is a fairly solid and effective gameplan. But, it's a gameplan that mains of low-mobility characters have had time to perfect how to deal with. So, now we're seeing the fruits of their labor, at least for the better of the characters mentioned here.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Then how would you rank them? Subjective theory crafting alone which without evidence to back it up is pretty meaningless? Much like in science, you can come up with all the theories you want, but you're supposed to eventually back it up with evidence if possible.

Later reply, but this video covers it.

To put it simply, it's just luck if a character happens to consistently place well.

If X has a great player who can attend many tournaments, they're gonna get more impressive placements more often.
If not, then they very likely won't.

Results are of course perfect for accounting players' power levels and can likely have much more say for games with smaller rosters & more similar characters.
But this is Ultimate.

It's easy to forget that competing in a meta with 80+, diverse, balanced fighters while likey in a process of suffering many hours of travel fatigue & lack of sleep, stuck in a setting with a possibly excitable audience & or extra stress, & at a pace where one wrong mistake could cost your run... (Also your opponent/s might have just been doing better.)

While yes, a character choice can be a notable factor in why you win or lose, they're not the full package, I.E. skill > tiers.

Results aren't the evidence. They don't detail what happened in the set, how close it was, what went where, or even outside elements like controller disconnects. They just list the placements, what does that speak more about.


Also, I wasn't arguing in favor of theory-crafting. Though I know many tend to whittle it down to just "Labbing for Meta Defining Techs/Strats". There are many smaller factors that can push a character for the better.

Honestly, I think overall case-by-case evaluations of your practical options and weighed match-up charts are much more on-point.



TLDR: Results determine a player's viability, not so much a character's.

 

[Arthur97]

Yeah, sure there may be fighters that are secretly great and need a break out player to show that who don't have it, but at the same time, Pikachu has a top player who has rather inconsistent results at that. Plus, all that in depth case by case analysis is rather dependent on having people who know both sides of the problem, which pretty much leads you back to the player issue. It is part of the problem with so many pro tier lists. Quite frankly, the don't know what they're talking about with several of the match ups cause they rarely interact with them. And, sure, they may know their mains really well, but that doesn't mean they know the other side at all. And how do you even weight it without using results to determine which fighters should be weighted more heavily?

 

[NairWizard]

Skill obviously matters more than character strength in determining outcome, but character strength does matter, and results do reflect character strength to some extent. It's just common sense that better characters tend to perform better over a large enough sample size. Single-tournament results aren't very meaningful, but you can't dismiss aggregate data. If Roy or ROB are #1 and #2 on OrionStats, well, that may not mean that they're actually the best characters in the game--but they aren't that far off, either. They certainly won't be in the bottom 20.

The better a character's results, the more unlikely it is that the theoretical potential of that character is bottom-half.
That isn't to say that such anomalies can't happen (they do), but for every character whose results are dramatically under- or overinflated, there are five characters whose theoretical caps fall in line with the band of their results (top 15, top 30, top 50, etc).

 

[Djmarcus44]

I looked at my tier list, and in order for Donkey Kong to not be bottom 17 he'd have to be better than 6 of the following characters:

Is it possible? I suppose, although you could probably argue results for most of these to some extent as well. At the end of the day, some characters will have to be bottom 17, some will be bottom 5, etc etc. You could, I suppose, draw the line between mid tier and low tier earlier, though I don't know how strong a bottom 17 mid tier would be.

Big D has some results with Ice Climbers. Who is better, Ice Climbers or Donkey Kong? Raito has some results with Duck Hunt. Who is better, Duck Hunt or Donkey Kong? Incineroar is starting to see some results, etc etc. At the end of the day, some characters will end up being not as strong as other characters, especially in a game with 80+ characters. Even bottom 17 characters in this game should not be slept on, though.

Am I saying that Donkey Kong is definitely low tier? Eh, not really. Aside from a few obvious cases, like Ganondorf, Little Mac, and Isabelle, it's fairly hard to properly access the low tiers in this game. Even someone like Dr. Mario has some pretty decent results in Japan, and characters like Kirby and Piranha Plant and Bowser Jr. etc get results here and there. I bet you could find someone arguing for each of them being mid tier as well.

Why do you have gunner in the bottom 20 range? The character is 47th on orionstats right now despite a small playerbase. The character has a strong neutral, good advantage and decent disadvantage. While matchup charts vary greatly depending on the player, the recent matchup charts by notable players have had more winning matchups than losing matchups.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Why do you have gunner in the bottom 20 range? The character is 47th on orionstats right now despite a small playerbase.

47th in OrionStats doesn't really mean much since it is only 12.5 points.

It is a bit hard to judge stuff on OrionRank as a whole right now since it is still very early in the season, and half of the cast hasn't broken 20 points yet.
The max points right now is 119 points, but that is because Roy has a huge lead on everyone (Roy is now to what R.O.B. was in the previous season), and everything else is 87.5 points or lower.

 

[Arthur97]

And I do think it's a fair point that Roy may be artificially inflated due to being fairly prominent in Georgia. He may not be so extreme if things normalize.

 

[Djmarcus44]

47th in OrionStats doesn't really mean much since it is only 12.5 points.

It is a bit hard to judge stuff on OrionRank as a whole right now since it is still very early in the season, and half of the cast hasn't broken 20 points yet.
The max points right now is 119 points, but that is because Roy has a huge lead on everyone (Roy is now to what R.O.B. was in the previous season), and everything else is 87.5 points or lower.

I know it is pretty early. I added in "right now" for my last post and used the phrase "off to a slow start" for my post about DK a Kazuya. My main point is the information about Gunner's tools that I have posted several times along with how Gunner's results stacks up compared to the other miis.

 

[Sucumbio]

Later reply, but this video covers it.

To put it simply, it's just luck if a character happens to consistently place well.

If X has a great player who can attend many tournaments, they're gonna get more impressive placements more often.
If not, then they very likely won't.

Results are of course perfect for accounting players' power levels and can likely have much more say for games with smaller rosters & more similar characters.
But this is Ultimate.

It's easy to forget that competing in a meta with 80+, diverse, balanced fighters while likey in a process of suffering many hours of travel fatigue & lack of sleep, stuck in a setting with a possibly excitable audience & or extra stress, & at a pace where one wrong mistake could cost your run... (Also your opponent/s might have just been doing better.)

While yes, a character choice can be a notable factor in why you win or lose, they're not the full package, I.E. skill > tiers.

Results aren't the evidence. They don't detail what happened in the set, how close it was, what went where, or even outside elements like controller disconnects. They just list the placements, what does that speak more about.


Also, I wasn't arguing in favor of theory-crafting. Though I know many tend to whittle it down to just "Labbing for Meta Defining Techs/Strats". There are many smaller factors that can push a character for the better.

Honestly, I think overall case-by-case evaluations of your practical options and weighed match-up charts are much more on-point.



TLDR: Results determine a player's viability, not so much a character's.

This is fascinating to me, it's an interesting take. However I must admit I'm having difficulty with the notion of player specific shortcomings that aren't necessarily a result of uncontrollable measurements.

Ugh that's worded oddly...

What I mean is a few of those examples read like.. johns ... The crowd was too loud, I was sleepy, .... It's like, can we really use that as a reason to support or deny a character's results? Not a player's results that's clearly several reasons to explain why some players are better than others regardless of which character they pick.

I also think tier lists should be thought of as being everything else equal such n such character is more likely to be easier to win with than another. So setting, fatigue, being mentally off game, having sweaty hands etc, shouldn't matter. This may make theory more relevant than results but I don't believe that's actually true. But I do agree that results definitely go towards rating player strength which is why power rankings are separate from tier lists.

So anyway when looking at a tier list I don't really believe they are made with a significant amount of ignorance towards most of the roster. I think pros definitely skew heavily towards how their character feels vs the cast and then incorporate what they've witnessed other players are doing and with which characters.

This to me is the only way to explain why so many players rank the same top characters in the same way even if they don't main any of them.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

SNIP

I was expecting responses like this.

It is much easier to just point at numbers on a board and say that's why X is 'this viable' rather than properly deconstructing the ins & outs of why.

As I said, they're not the full package.

Also, no offensive, but that "johns" comment really sounds like you've never traveled outside your hometown to compete, or even thought about the process. Long trips can wear on you more than you may think. lol

But regardless, they are many reasons why a character does/doesn't place well that they can't determine even when the results speak otherwise. (This video goes into more detail, I recommend you watch it)

 

[Sucumbio]

I was expecting responses like this.

It is much easier to just point at numbers on a board and say that's why X is 'this viable' rather than properly deconstructing the ins & outs of why.

As I said, they're not the full package.

Also, no offensive, but that "johns" comment really sounds like you've never traveled outside your hometown to compete, or even thought about the process. Long trips can wear on you more than you may think. lol

But regardless, they are many reasons why a character does/doesn't place well that they can't determine even when the results speak otherwise. (This video goes into more detail, I recommend you watch it)

I get that, I just don't see why it matters in tier list creating. Player ranking, absolutely it matters, but as I said a good tier list should not be taking into account player-specific variables. Otherwise we'd have to qualify general tier lists as When X player is your opponent This is the tier list. It's way too specific... Like when you have a tier list it should be a reflection of all players of each character and their inherited habits. So for example, essentially it should go without saying that Aegis is number 1 right now regardless of how you may be feeling physically or if you're at a noisy venue. Everything else being equal, if you use Aegis you're more likely to win your set than if you use anyone else. At least that's what I've always seen Tiers meaning.

 

[superjm]

In every competitive scene of every fighting game the cream rises to the top, and rather quickly at that. Players who are heavily invested in attending and trying to win tournaments aren't in the business of denying themselves the best chance to win in their eyes. I certainly have no reason to believe that Ultimate is in any way unique in this regard, and in fact the swift proliferation of characters in their heyday like Wolf, Palutena, ROB, Roy, Aegis, Joker and others is only confirmation of that. It's only because Pikachu is not one of those characters and may never be that all this talk of "results don't matter" is showing up. I don't buy it for a second.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Why do you have gunner in the bottom 20 range? The character is 47th on orionstats right now despite a small playerbase. The character has a strong neutral, good advantage and decent disadvantage. While matchup charts vary greatly depending on the player, the recent matchup charts by notable players have had more winning matchups than losing matchups.

I won't pretend to be an expert at Miis, but from what I've seen other characters seem more impressive than Mii Gunner, such as Wii Fit Trainer, Ken/Ryu, Jigglypuff (see BassMage), Richter/Simon Belmont (see T3 DOM and some other players), Falco, all the Links, etc.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Results for LVL UP EXPO 2022

1. Sonix
2. Scend
3. MVD
4. Larry Lurr
5. frawg
5. Lui$
7. Klaatu
7. Zenyou
9. Chase
9. Floppeh
9. ven
9. Snoop
13. Nexus
13. Caius
13. Blues
13. Splash Daddy

 

[Djmarcus44]

Frihetsanka Gunner has shown the ability to compete with those characters with Capitancito having a close set with Bassmage and beating Tilde. Gunner also has a higher ranked main than WFT (and Link due to T's inactivity). Tsumusuto also has a strong Gunner that has beaten Kome.

This video has ESAM's reasonings for his down special tier list. While he has started doing better for rating Gunner's moves in his recent lists, he still has some misinformed takes. For his down tilt list, Gunner's down tilt is actually stronger than Samus's. It is difficult to punish Gunner's down tilt on block because of the shield pushback. Gunner's down special is actually underrated because the move is very versatile. In neutral, it can get grabs on shield with good spacing, control platforms, and block a good number of projectiles with its hurtbox property. In advantage, it is a great ledgetrapping tool and it combos into most of Gunner's kit. In disadvantage, it can cover Gunner while Gunner is still free to act. While it can be hit back at Gunner, Gunner can detonate the bomb early or space the bomb in ways where it won't hit Gunner.
https://youtu.be/Q9Tmtn1BzXw

 

[The_Bookworm]

OrionStats updated today.

There isn't really much noteworthy of this update as far as I can tell. Only things I can see is that:

• is now #2 underneath Roy.
• There is a fairly notable point gap between the top 8 characters and everything else.
• is definitely as the highest he has been throughout Ultimate's lifetime.
• Only notable drop from my memory is dropping all the way from top 20 to #27.
• Every character in the game now has at least 1 point, with being at the bottom with exactly 1 point.

However, each of the things listed above is rather minor overall.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Crashboards moment.