Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Frihetsanka

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Yeah but it will probably be distributed to those at highest risk first like healthcare workers and the elderly.
Might be a bit off-topic but quick comment: I read that it might not be until 2022 before most people have been vaccinated, since mostly healthcare workers and risk groups will be vaccinated early on.

Locals exists in many places right now but I don't think offline majors will be a thing before 2021 at the earliest.

Going more on-topic: Seems many people think Steve struggles vs swords, rushdown, and camping. Given what the meta looks like that does not bode well for his viability.
 

SwagGuy99

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Going more on-topic: Seems many people think Steve struggles vs swords, rushdown, and camping. Given what the meta looks like that does not bode well for his viability.
I agree. I'll give a quick list of who I can most likely see him struggling against based on what we currently know about him.

Characters who can disrupt his ability to collect materials from a distance which can leave him in a bad position
:ultyounglink::ultsimon::ultzelda::ultsnake:

Characters who can play rushdown against him and get in his face to pressure him at mid or close range
:ultmario::ultluigi::ultpichu::ultpikachu::ultroy::ultzss::ultchrom::ultsheik:

Fast characters with disjoints who are mobile enough to be able to maneuver around his setups and traps
:ultmarth::ultlucina::ultcloud::ultchrom::ultroy:

They can pocket his some of his moves and can force Steve to approach or approach him themselves and corner him. They also can't really be edgeguarded easily by Steve either:
:ultvillager::ultisabelle:

IMO probably his worst matchup
:ultfalco:
 
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Gleam

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Personally, TNT continues to be one of my personal favorite tools of Steve. I've already mentioned it's applicability on people like Chrom and Ike, but even then, it's just an overall great deterrent and KO option against people. Let's say you're facing someone and you get them in the air, set a piece of TNT down and perhaps for good measure, light the fuse a bit.

Your opponent suddenly has to make a very quick, perhaps even very risky decision now. If they try to attack, 95% of the time, they will detonate that TNT, assuming Steve doesn't do it first. In such a case, best case scenario, you both die, and even then, you will definitely die before Steve. Let's say you try to dodge, you can't dodge towards the TNT, you'll get blown up. And if you try to dodge away (even worse, dodge away off stage) then you simply put yourself into another precarious situation.

This is also another reason why I think "rushdown" characters aren't nearly going to be as effective against Steve. Firstly, it is not nearly as difficult to mine for materials with Steve, but once I set TNT down, I've set a very risky obstacle. Now Steve can survive his own TNT with proper DI and things like Anvil, to about 120% Most characters will die between 70-100%, with only the superheavies having a better survival chance, percentage wise.

Unless you're willing to take the risk, anyone who can't rightfully attack beyond the range of the TNT detonation (and even projectiles can be deterred somewhat by blocks) I feel would rightfully want to make space. Steve is like a rattlesnake, he's telling if you don't back off, he'll bite, and when he bites, it hurts.
 

SapphSabre777

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One thing that will be interesting to see from players versus Steve is "defusing the TNT" play. TNT can be "defused" from the panel if it is sent high enough into the air or sent away from the redstone trail.

For a perspective in regards to a sample character, in this case, Kirby's most practical moves to defused is strong N-Air and U-Air from ledge, so it would mean any decently strong move that sends the TNT upwards would naturally defuse it.

A warning though, TNT won't be as easily defused if trying to horizontally defuse it, since you have to send the TNT away from the redstone trail to actually defuse it, else you are still creating a connection and can still be smacked around with it. But I digress.

As for the Blockman himself, he is a very...interesting character.

At his highest, he can become a contender for one of the best, if not the best in the game due to the ungodly amounts of setups, some of the best damage output and KO potential that is on par and can even beat that of Arsene Joker, and advantage he can put on the opponent while simultaneously being able to be one of the most efficient campers in the game, one that we haven't seen since Sonic in the last few games, thanks to his Mining and Create Block specials.

At his lowest, he becomes very mediocre, as his middling range and very slow mobility stats means that if a character has Steve in disadvantage, they can't simply "move away" from disadvantage thanks to the low ground and air speed. There's also his recovery that relies on his Minecart, and recovering against certain characters that force him low or characters that require Steve to pass through them and they have KO moves all around them, like Ike, make getting back to neutral pure misery for this character.

Watching the friendlies between Fatality and Dabuz, the latter of which is a major player that is very interested in Steve and has posted that he will test the character for a month, the duality is there for all to see. At some moments, Dabuz walls and obliterates stocks with Alex versus Captain Falcon, on others, Fatality keeps Dabuz's Alex in a painful disadvantage that erases the long, damaging combos in the first place.

I'll have to opt with Thinkaman Thinkaman 's wary outlook for the character for the time being, but I have no doubt that every character must be alert for Steve. Honestly speaking, he might be a "Jack-O" (from Guilty Gear Xrd) MU style of character in that their own crazy tools in comparison to the game they were in allowed really REALLY good MUs and really REALLY bad ones. We'll have to wait and see.
 

StrangeKitten

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At his lowest, he becomes very mediocre, as his middling range and very slow mobility stats means that if a character has Steve in disadvantage, they can't simply "move away" from disadvantage thanks to the low ground and air speed. There's also his recovery that relies on his Minecart, and recovering against certain characters that force him low or characters that require Steve to pass through them and they have KO moves all around them, like Ike, make getting back to neutral pure misery for this character.
This! I don't agree with others in this thread saying rushdowns aren't a problem for him. They felt extremely rough to face. What does Steve even do against a character who is just keeping him in disadvantage? If they stay on you, you can't mine. You're gonna go through your resources pretty quickly, and then be left with nothing. Opponents can break through dirt blocks very quickly, which are going to be what you lay down first. They don't slow approaches that well. I play characters that have a very rough disadvantage. Steve's felt even worse. And it's not like his range issues disappear against rushdowns, either. The moves that protect him well in such situations, Minecart and down air, use iron. He doesn't have much else - fair, nair and up air don't cover him from underneath or from the back. Back air doesn't protect much beneath him and leaves him exposed in the front. Steve can use Create Block I guess... so congrats, you made a block. You're still in disadvantage. Your opponent has options to attack you while you're on your block, or can wait till you come down. It wouldn't be as big of an issue if he had decent mobility stats, but therein lies the problem. Jumping and air dodging away, something that works well enough with other characters not named Little Mac, gets Steve nowhere.

I agree that rushdowns aren't the only bad matchups for Steve. Disjoints and characters who can outcamp him seem like they'll also be rough. But rushdowns certainly do not feel like a fun time.
 

StoicPhantom

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What does Steve even do against a character who is just keeping him in disadvantage?
Survive mostly. Create Block is ultimately the key to stopping rushdown I believe. I don't have a winning formula on hand, but even just jumping and putting a block under you slows down your opponent enough to chain a block path away from them. From there you can decide if you want to jump down or create a second block path above/below you or utilize the stage platforms to make your escape. Add in TNT or the anvil here and there and you can sufficiently confuse your opponent.

You of course need a solid understanding of spacing and your opponent's character as well as the execution to pull of these block creations quickly while still keeping a general sense of what's going on. And I think that this is where the learning curve for Steve is going to get really steep. But Create Block can shutdown rushdown characters that don't have significant disjoints pretty effectively. And then diamond weapons can pretty quickly make up any lost ground.

But you're probably SOL with characters that have large disjoints like :ultzss::ultmarth::ultlucina: or have strong projectiles like :ultzelda::ultkrool::ultrichter::ultsimon: or certain playstyles like :ultsnake::ultminmin. You would need to have some really fancy movement to deal with the disjoints and really good spacing and shield game to dealt with the projectiles; all of which aren't easy to do consistently online.

As far as finding time to mine goes I find that eschewing juggles and edgeguards in favor of getting resources seems to be the best option. Steve doesn't have much in the way of approach tools, so mining whenever the opponent is at a safe distance seems to be the best bet. I don't think you will need to worry so much about iron so long as you keep a healthy supply of block resources.

I think this character is going to have a really weird MU spread in general. He can shutdown characters like :ultsonic::ultpichu::ultpikachu: well enough with clever block placement, but then seemingly gets bodied by the likes of :ultkrool:. I think projectile zoners and those who can out camp him are what his actual archetype struggles are.
 

SwagGuy99

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Dabuz and Izaw's current impressions of Steve:


So I might be onto something with Falco being his worst matchup. Dabuz saying Shulk is really hard as well is interesting to me as he's not that fast and I can see Steve maybe being able to use blocks in order to stall against Monado Arts, but maybe Shulk's range is too good to allow Steve to do that.
 
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StrangeKitten

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Survive mostly. Create Block is ultimately the key to stopping rushdown I believe. I don't have a winning formula on hand, but even just jumping and putting a block under you slows down your opponent enough to chain a block path away from them. From there you can decide if you want to jump down or create a second block path above/below you or utilize the stage platforms to make your escape. Add in TNT or the anvil here and there and you can sufficiently confuse your opponent.

You of course need a solid understanding of spacing and your opponent's character as well as the execution to pull of these block creations quickly while still keeping a general sense of what's going on. And I think that this is where the learning curve for Steve is going to get really steep. But Create Block can shutdown rushdown characters that don't have significant disjoints pretty effectively. And then diamond weapons can pretty quickly make up any lost ground.

But you're probably SOL with characters that have large disjoints like :ultzss::ultmarth::ultlucina: or have strong projectiles like :ultzelda::ultkrool::ultrichter::ultsimon: or certain playstyles like :ultsnake::ultminmin. You would need to have some really fancy movement to deal with the disjoints and really good spacing and shield game to dealt with the projectiles; all of which aren't easy to do consistently online.

As far as finding time to mine goes I find that eschewing juggles and edgeguards in favor of getting resources seems to be the best option. Steve doesn't have much in the way of approach tools, so mining whenever the opponent is at a safe distance seems to be the best bet. I don't think you will need to worry so much about iron so long as you keep a healthy supply of block resources.

I think this character is going to have a really weird MU spread in general. He can shutdown characters like :ultsonic::ultpichu::ultpikachu: well enough with clever block placement, but then seemingly gets bodied by the likes of :ultkrool:. I think projectile zoners and those who can out camp him are what his actual archetype struggles are.
I'm not all that certain on Create Block shutting down rushdowns, at least consistently. It sounds like you'd have to make an awful lot of blocks just to keep them out, while they have speed and mobility on their side. :ultsonic: also has Homing Attack as a gap closer, while :ultpikachu:has t-jolts that won't lose it anything if they hit a block and will win it % and potential gap closing if they hit Steve. Also wouldn't surprise me if Thunder can hit Steve while he's standing on an aerial block. :ultpichu:can't freely t-jolt or Thunder, so I can see Pichu struggling here.

It may also be worth noting that rushdowns are usually much worse online, so if you're an online player, that could be where the discrepancy lies. I played offline, where their oppressiveness shines. Once in-person majors are a thing again, Steve will be facing the full brunt of things like ESAM's :ultpikachu:, Fatality's :ultfalcon:, Dark Wizzy and Prodigy's :ultmario:s, Light's :ultfox:, MkLeo's :ultjoker:, all of whom aren't currently doing as well as they usually do because lag nerfs their characters.
 
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StoicPhantom

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It sounds like you'd have to make an awful lot of blocks just to keep them out,
That's why I tend to make mining a top priority when I play. Even just doing little things like putting blocks under a platform and then mining that platform until your opponent tries to jump towards you helps. Dirt isn't too difficult to get so you can just burn through those without too much worry and just save your iron for quick escapes.

Keep moving when you're creating too. Blocks don't offer much cover so you need to use them as a means to slow down movement rather than a shield. If you placed them correctly a lot of opponents won't be able to DI and hit you without running into a block. Once you've built enough space you can start using as a means to trap in tandem with your specials and the like.

I also feel like there's more advanced tactics such as creating diagonal blocks that conserves resources and confuses the opponent, quickly creating multiple layers of blocks, and using blocks to combo off of that we still haven't explored as well. This characters feels like he's going to be as character specific and execution heavy as Snake if not more, so I'm not going to count him out yet.


I think mixing up block placement and understanding how to place them in a way that will maximize space and minimize resources will ultimately be the key to playing this character effectively and learning that won't be for a while probably. He feels like he'll join characters like :ultzelda: :ultsnake::ultminmin in being radically different from the mainstream, so I fully expect it to be a while before anyone is any good with Steve and he will require significant investment.


I haven't really played him enough to comment on individual MUs but I was mostly talking about using blocks to limit the mobility of those characters you mentioned. It's kind of difficult for Sonic to spin dash or Pikachu/Pichu to quick attack or hop around in there when there is a sufficient amount of blocks in the way. I'm finding concrete blocks particularly effective at being general nuisances in that regard. Though stage selection will play a significant role in this. FD is really difficult to keep this up and manage resources while Battlefield seems to lend really well in platform play.


Of course this all my initial impressions and speculation based on what I see is his potential so take it with a grain of salt.
 

StrangeKitten

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Let's be honest, how many people think :ultpikachu: isn't their worst matchup in the game?

Steve may not like Pikachu, heck it may even seriously by severely in Pika's favor. But by goodness, you'd think Pikachu was the second coming of Brawl MK with how people treat this character.
Yeah, I honestly think :ultpikachu:is pretty overrated. More players are considering Pika to not be such a bad MU, such as Tweek. I think as time goes on, players will realize Pika isn't quite the menace it's been made out to be, though it's still a very good character, of course.
 

Ziodyne 21

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Let's be honest, how many people think :ultpikachu: isn't their worst matchup in the game?

Steve may not like Pikachu, heck it may even seriously by severely in Pika's favor. But by goodness, you'd think Pikachu was the second coming of Brawl MK with how people treat this character.
0
Umm :ultgnw:and maybe :ultmario:mains. Those are MU's people dare to saythat the allmighty Pikachu may , not actullay completley dominate and say the shocking , scandalous thought that Pikachu may not win them.
 
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StrangeKitten

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I strongly disagree with Izaw's opinion that Steve is the worst character in the game. I'll watch his video on it when it comes out, but I doubt it'll sway me. We'll look at some other contenders:
:ultganondorf: is a huge target, terrible disadvantage state that doesn't have as much hope of improving as Steve's does. Kill power supposedly a strength, but Steve kills sooner anyway when we discount Ganondorf's smash attacks, Warlock Punch, and Volcano Kick (all of which aren't great options, while Steve's up and forward smashes are better and don't kill that much later). Worst recovery in the game, while Steve has many options.

:ultlittlemac:pretty much has the same weaknesses as Ganondorf. Is a smaller target, and much faster, but still has atrocious disadvantage due to effectively no aerials. KO Punch is the only thing Mac has over Steve, and it is simply not a good move.

Neither of these two can deal with projectiles well at all. Steve at least has some things.

:ultdoc: has worse range than Steve, and a very worse recovery. Pills are strong, and kill confirms are strong, but I feel like Steve edges him out.

:ultisabelle: shares Steve's range issue, but lacks kill power, unlike Steve.

I feel like Steve is a good bit better than bottom 5, but at the very least, he is better than these 4.
 
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Minordeth

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Steve is interesting. Any trap and setup based character is going to take a while to get a real handle on, but he at least feels competitive. How competitive, of course, is an open question.


Let's be honest, how many people think :ultpikachu: isn't their worst matchup in the game?

Steve may not like Pikachu, heck it may even seriously by severely in Pika's favor. But by goodness, you'd think Pikachu was the second coming of Brawl MK with how people treat this character.
Pikachu being “the worst MU for every character,” is both a meme and self-fulfilling prophecy. ESAM’s masterful demonstration of “community anchoring” aside, Pikachu is a good character with flaws that have been occasionally picked apart (summoning @SolidSense).

That said, of the characters I play, he is not Terry, Samus, or Chrom’s worst MU. So 🤷‍♂️
 

Nathan Richardson

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I've played against a few elite Steves and what surprises me is how quickly his smashes come out. I once had Steve cornered with my Charizard and went for an up smash. He simply shielded it and then took me out with a forward smash before I could get my shield up. Also Steve's materials carry over from stock to stock. He took advantage of the mercy invincibility offered after he lost a stock to upgrade to a diamond pickax and sword. On the other hand his minecart burns through resources at a ridiculous rate. I won some matches but he gets rewarded for simply sitting in shield then shield punishing anyone who gets too close with an attack.
 

KirbySquad101

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In Dabuz's defense, he's stated that he thinks Olimar goes even or beats Pikachu, a character a he's always held in negative light as a "mid tier gimmick". Pika being "Steve's toughest MU" could very well be a ripple effect of the global "Pika is OP against nearly everyone" mentality, but this is the same player who was willing to put Mario, G&W, and ROB over Pika in his top 5 on his tier list, something he would've most definitely been crucified for had not everyone been fixated on things like Kirby being ranked above Bowser/Ness or Pichu being in low tier.

That said, I'm a bit skeptic on Pika being extremely tough for Steve, or rushdown CQC characters like Mario/Fox for that matter. You definitely want to stop Steve from getting carried away with his mining, but Steve's also got frame data/reward that arguably rivals or exceeds said characters on top of having disjoints as an added benefit. Letting Steve get an opening is the last thing you want to do, and you're putting yourself at a greater risk the closer you get to him. I think the Pika-Steve MU would depend a lot on how Steve can deal with T-Jolt harassment as well as if Steve's OoS can cover Pika's aerial landings.

Maister and Mew2King also believe the Falco MU to be very tough for Steve.

Curious to see how smaller disjoint characters like :ultness::ultlucas::ultgnw::ultbowserjr::ultmetaknight::ulttoonlink: would fare against Steve compared to traditional swordies.
 

SapphSabre777

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In Dabuz's defense, he's stated that he thinks Olimar goes even or beats Pikachu, a character a he's always held in negative light as a "mid tier gimmick". Pika being "Steve's toughest MU" could very well be a ripple effect of the global "Pika is OP against nearly everyone" mentality, but this is the same player who was willing to put Mario, G&W, and ROB over Pika in his top 5 on his tier list, something he would've most definitely been crucified for had not everyone been fixated on things like Kirby being ranked above Bowser/Ness or Pichu being in low tier.

That said, I'm a bit skeptic on Pika being extremely tough for Steve, or rushdown CQC characters like Mario/Fox for that matter. You definitely want to stop Steve from getting carried away with his mining, but Steve's also got frame data/reward that arguably rivals or exceeds said characters on top of having disjoints as an added benefit. Letting Steve get an opening is the last thing you want to do, and you're putting yourself at a greater risk the closer you get to him. I think the Pika-Steve MU would depend a lot on how Steve can deal with T-Jolt harassment as well as if Steve's OoS can cover Pika's aerial landings.

Maister and Mew2King also believe the Falco MU to be very tough for Steve.

Curious to see how smaller disjoint characters like :ultness::ultlucas::ultgnw::ultbowserjr::ultmetaknight::ulttoonlink: would fare against Steve compared to traditional swordies.
This ends up becoming the crux of the matter of Steve's uncertainty. Sure, Steve's great frame data and reward are there to scare off rushdown in theory, but the issues with him versus rushdown and range stem from one of his biggest weaknesses in range, which has terrible repercussions with the limited disjoint he has. Less range ends up meaning that you are more susceptible to whiff punishes because the opponent can afford to get closer to you without getting hit, and the allure of using Steve's moves to get that juicy reward or stock can come back to hurt him instead by leading to fish out those moves, and thanks to Steve's low jump height, using moves like F-Air and B-Air to space becomes much more committal on a character that cannot afford mistakes against certain characters. Combined with my previous post about Steve not liking disadvantage whatsoever, regardless of his block placement, and CQC/ranged/combo-centric characters like Mario, Shulk, and Falco, respectively, become a bane for Steve, no matter how much his mechanics can alter their strategies.

In regards to Pikachu, if findings from Kirby crouch data are to go by along with the above statements, it sounds abhorrent for Steve. Steve loathes low-profilers. The issue with low-profilers is that the ends of his sword-related moves will whiff unless he gets closer, which all but helps short characters weasel hits in against Steve and allow them to get close while forcing some sort of commitment by Steve to combat the approach, whether it is block-building or expending resources with Anvils or Minecarts. His OoS will also be tampered with, since if Kirby's crouch is anything to go by (and Pikachu's landing pancakes are infamous and on that same basis), he cannot do immediate aerials OoS lest he whiffs or commits to landing lag by fastfalling, and with frame data that Pikachu has, it is asking for it. Combined with Pikachu's amazing combo game and advantage that can choke out attempts of escape easily, and Steve has to ride on his advantage to win the match, which all relies on overcoming those notable weaknesses that a majority of the roster can exploit.

The more I watch Dabuz play against players like Fatality and Nicko, the more Steve's issues become apparent and exploitable to even characters like Ganondorf (Nicko played Ganon for a bit before playing Shulk). He's definitely shaping up to be a character that either has to play very camp/zone based to garner any real neutral control, or a character that has a character-to-character MU chart that is, again, very polarizing due to how "x character" interacts with Steve's strengths and weaknesses, for better or worse.
 

Wigglerman

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That sweet hyperbole that Steve is worst in the game when Mac exists. Please, I look forward to a video that explains how a character with a massive tool kit is worse than Mac. Enlighten me, Smash Daddy. XD

Edit: We'll also see how these statements hold up when locals are able to be held again. Watch the character perform better outside of the online environment. That'll be my prediction.
 
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Lacrimosa

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Yeah, I honestly think :ultpikachu:is pretty overrated. More players are considering Pika to not be such a bad MU, such as Tweek. I think as time goes on, players will realize Pika isn't quite the menace it's been made out to be, though it's still a very good character, of course.
?
The game is out for nearly 2 years now and Pika is still thought to be a menace.
Didn't win anything big aside from one A-tier if I'm not mistaken.
And if that's for Steve only: Well, don't expect that to xhange anytime soon.

You need to have one imaginary number 1 even though Joker has more going for him in that regard.
 

blackghost

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If Steve ends up the worst in the game it would be quit the feat. Having all those tools just to equal no gameplan for most of the cast would be super funny to me.

As for Steve gameplan or formula honestly he doesn't seem like a character that can consistently come up with one. His resources arent even the same from stage to stage.

I'm gonna need video proof and explanation about why Steve doesn't hate getting rushdown. He has the same.e issue hero has but hero at least has the scare factor Steve doesn't even get that
 

Wigglerman

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?
The game is out for nearly 2 years now and Pika is still thought to be a menace.
Didn't win anything big aside from one A-tier if I'm not mistaken.
And if that's for Steve only: Well, don't expect that to xhange anytime soon.

You need to have one imaginary number 1 even though Joker has more going for him in that regard.
I think Pika is still that character who has everything they need to be the best in the game, just no one is piloting the character who can tap fully into it. Not even Esam (And Pika doesn't have a really big player base from what I've seen, so fewer people are actually trying to break through the ceiling with the mouse). But I'm still in the camp Palu is best in game even with her mild nerfs early on. But the trifecta of her, Pika and Joker...really, the three are insane characters so it's really anyone's guess as to which is the best.
 

Rizen

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Dabuz and Izaw's current impressions of Steve:


So I might be onto something with Falco being his worst matchup. Dabuz saying Shulk is really hard as well is interesting to me as he's not that fast and I can see Steve maybe being able to use blocks in order to stall against Monado Arts, but maybe Shulk's range is too good to allow Steve to do that.
The less people listen to Izaw the better.

Debuz actually played Steve exclusively in one of the juice box tournaments and got top 8 so he has a pretty good early impression of Steve. Of course it will take time before anyone gets a good understanding of the character. That said he does seem underwhelming however it's possible he'll end up like Luigi with some powerful 0-death tech. We've already found an instant shield break>grab and fall on the anvil offstage, which will likely be patched. As of now I'd say Steve is mid tier. I'm keeping an open mind.
 

StrangeKitten

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?
The game is out for nearly 2 years now and Pika is still thought to be a menace.
Didn't win anything big aside from one A-tier if I'm not mistaken.
And if that's for Steve only: Well, don't expect that to xhange anytime soon.

You need to have one imaginary number 1 even though Joker has more going for him in that regard.
So do we agree that Pikachu is a little overrated? I wasn't saying that I personally think Pika is a menace. I meant that he's still perceived as one by a majority of players, and I disagree a little with that. You pointing out his lack of results is why I think Pikachu is a bit overrated. He's a hard character? Okay, but ESAM has been playing him for over a decade and is good at lightning loops (I know :pikachu2:and :4pikachu:are different from :ultpikachu:, but would it really take so long to adjust to a slightly different version of the character?). Still didn't place as well as most top tiers with the year and change he had to do so before covid. Note that I say a little overrated. His lack of results is why I'm doubtful on Pika being the best character in the game, but he's still top tier. And I'm also a bit doubtful of Pikachu being the worst matchup for nearly every character. More high-skill players have been viewing their mains as having an even MU with Pika as time has gone on, as opposed to Pika being one of their worst. I was also speaking generally. I wouldn't disagree with Pika being Steve's worst matchup. He still could be, for sure.

Lol, was gonna post ESAM's video here but Hydreigonfan01 beat me to it! ESAM saying Steve is gonna have trouble with rushdowns makes me feel a little vindicated since I've been saying the same. He demonstrates pretty well how Pika can smother Steve in the video. I also just talked about how Steve's completely different from any other character, and how he's hard to get into, and ESAM says the same here.
 
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Ziodyne 21

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So do we agree that Pikachu is a little overrated? I wasn't saying that I personally think Pika is a menace. I meant that he's still perceived as one by a majority of players, and I disagree a little with that. You pointing out his lack of results is why I think Pikachu is a bit overrated. He's a hard character? Okay, but ESAM has been playing him for over a decade and is good at lightning loops (I know :pikachu2:and :4pikachu:are different from :ultpikachu:, but would it really take so long to adjust to a slightly different version of the character?). Still didn't place as well as most top tiers with the year and change he had to do so before covid. Note that I say a little overrated. His lack of results is why I'm doubtful on Pika being the best character in the game, but he's still top tier. And I'm also a bit doubtful of Pikachu being the worst matchup for nearly every character. More high-skill players have been viewing their mains as having an even MU with Pika as time has gone on, as opposed to Pika being one of their worst. I was also speaking generally. I wouldn't disagree with Pika being Steve's worst matchup. He still could be, for sure.

Lol, was gonna post ESAM's video here but Hydreigonfan01 beat me to it! ESAM saying Steve is gonna have trouble with rushdowns makes me feel a little vindicated since I've been saying the same. He demonstrates pretty well how Pika can smother Steve in the video. I also just talked about how Steve's completely different from any other character, and how he's hard to get into, and ESAM says the same here.
Okay , Pikachu MU or anything Pikachu related ESAM says with a grain of salt too as he does not even really hide his bias towards his main lol..He probably will say :ultpikachu: is the worst MU of every other character in the game.

It's almost kinda ..endearing to see.
Thought the entire history of Smash 4 never stopped saying Pikachu was the best character in the game with unshaken belief. Now In ln Ultimate he believes Pikachu is the best in the game and likely will for the rest of this games competive life.

I mean in Smash 4 and Ultimate when so many notable pro players who mained character ever considered one of "the best" had the habit of downplaying them in various degrees .
 
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StrangeKitten

Smash Ace
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Okay , Pikachu MU or anything Pikachu related ESAM says with a grain of salt too as he does not even really hide his bias towards his main lol..He probably will say :ultpikachu: is the worst MU of every other character in the game.

It's almost kinda ..endearing to see.
Thought the entire history of Smash 4 never stopped saying Pikachu was the best character in the game with unshaken belief. Now In ln Ultimate he believes Pikachu is the best in the game and likely will for the rest of this games competive life.

I mean in Smash 4 and Ultimate when so many notable pro players who mained character ever considered one of "the best" had the habit of downplaying them in various degrees .
I didn't mean to address just ESAM's opinion that Pika is the best. I too find it endearing how much he loves his main. I meant to address the larger consensus that Pikachu is the best, since ESAM is far from the only one saying the character is the best. I don't mind people holding the opinion that Pika is the best. I merely sought to tell why I disagree.
 

Gleam

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I saw it in Hungrybox's clips of Steve, but one thing that really stood out, and very easy to do was the fact that you can detonate TNT with D-Smash and dodge immediately during the moment to avoid damage. Like just imagine being at the ledge, and now not only do I have this massive box of KO explosion, I can casually detonate it without causing me any damage and put more setups with D-Smash.

You guys better be darn happy this guy's got the disadvantages he does.
 

StrangeKitten

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The less people listen to Izaw the better.

Debuz actually played Steve exclusively in one of the juice box tournaments and got top 8 so he has a pretty good early impression of Steve. Of course it will take time before anyone gets a good understanding of the character. That said he does seem underwhelming however it's possible he'll end up like Luigi with some powerful 0-death tech. We've already found an instant shield break>grab and fall on the anvil offstage, which will likely be patched. As of now I'd say Steve is mid tier. I'm keeping an open mind.
Apparently I missed this post about Steve zero-to-deaths

Works on a few characters:

There is a one-frame window to escape this. I have a feeling this one will get patched out:
 

Terotrous

Smash Champion
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Played a ton of matches tonight, here are my thoughts on some aspects of the patch.

Obviously, most of my time was spent on Steve. I actually played him in almost every game tonight, and actually, he's very fun. Tons of stuff about him has already been said so I'll try to stick to stuff that people haven't gone over a ton already.

- I feel like stage selection matters a lot to Steve due to the differing mining rates. In particular, I felt like I was at a pretty significant disadvantage on the iron-based stages where you mine slower and can't get dirt or wood, as this significantly restricts your ability to use the minecart and TNT.

- Steve's recovery is pretty fantastic. Everyone already knows about using blocks to get your jump back, but minecart also allows for another midair jump, and is actually a bit threatening if you get caught in it.

- Gold sword is indeed pretty good. It feels quite a bit safer than the other swords, and I highly suspect there will be matchups where this matters. I wouldn't say it's necessarily better than Diamond Sword, but you get it a lot earlier and it's pretty decent.

- Anvil is way better than I expected. It comes out pretty fast, Steve can act fairly quickly afterwards, and the Anvil itself can also block certain attacks since it also has a hitbox. Oh, and it hits super hard too.

Overall, he has such a wealth of options that I'm not willing to say too much about his overall viability at this point. I feel like he might have the tools to play around almost any matchup, but time will tell.


I also played some of :ultlucario: , though I feel he's very disappointing. The aura changes really don't seem too powerful, I kept landing command grabs expecting they were going to kill but it still seems not to kill until like120% near ledge, which is way too high. This should be killing around 80% with max aura. He really needs that move to be at least somewhat scary to be a good character IMO.
 

Swamp Sensei

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I'm actually going to say a bit of a hot take.

Steve is just okay...

He has a wealth of zany options and can seem unpredictable at first.

But his range and his movement is actually awful.

A real character of extremes. Honestly he's almost as volatile as Little Mac.
 

rigmac97

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 18, 2020
Messages
12
Bingo. A decent grab game is a requirement for a good ground game, and as I mentioned before, he punches during his throws.

Instead:
-Forward & Up-Throw are mediocre positioning tools.
-D-Throw doesn't combo unless the opponent screws up.
-B-Throw doesn't kill until around 150% by the ledge, which isn't terrible but that's pretty below average compare to other kill-throws.

He could put up with a poor grab if he actually got anything off his throws.
So where's the logic there.
Bruh, I think Inceneroar has better stats in that. In my opinion, he has some of the best kill throws in the game. Many fighters surprisingly don't have great kill throws, that's why I did the dirty work in researching which fighters have the best potential. The list has been updated for version 9.0.0. Check it out
 

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Ace
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blackghost

Smash Lord
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i expect steve to just strike yoshis moving forward almost automatically almost on the level of Bayonetta striking FD in smash 4. if steve cannot easily access metal he loses minecart and dair setups.
 

Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
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One one hand. In Smash 4 and in Ultaimte characters that have both very poor mobilty and very stubby range have always suffered abd never could escape lower-tier I.e Kirby and Doc..

UNLESS the character, despite those flaws has some nutty combos and jank that could allow them to basically steal stocks when they actullay could get in i.e Luigi.

Steve does look like he can fit into the latter category from what we have seen. With soek examples looking at least somewhat practical. But so far I think we have to see one player really be able to fully Grasp Steve and use him to his full potential to see how good he is
 
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Phosphophyllite

Smash Cadet
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Dec 4, 2018
Messages
27
Remembering the kinds of matches I've had with :ultdoc: against the likes of :ultpalutena: and :ultwario: where I'd get circle camped on Battlefield due to the mix of poor range and mobility makes me worry for Steve in these kinds of situations. I don't know where he'll be considered in the long run, but I doubt he'll be top tier considering we've already figured out how many characters will give him a lot of trouble.
 
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