COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Shell]

Vids pleezz!

That sounds really intense. I think it would be a little much for me, but I respect you for playing at mach speed.

I'm at 1.25 down, 1.15 dash speed, .9 shorthops

 

[spunit262]

In the powershield modifier, would I just replace the 8 in the yellow with another number to change the amount of powershield frames or do I change everything in the yellow? It doesn't seem clear how to change that.

You could change the 0s but that would dramatically increase the frames you can PS, so just change the 8.

 

[InvincibleAgent]

Any codes to allow up to 8 players? 4 GCN pads and 4 Classic controllers, anyone?

 

[Revven]

Any codes to allow up to 8 players? 4 GCN pads and 4 Classic controllers, anyone?

Phantom Wings mentioned something about getting 7 players working but, he hasn't released the code yet (or I'm completely mistaken, spunit? Igglyboo? Clarification plz).

 

[CountKaiser]

Bees, what version of Gecko OS are you using? That may be it.

Also, definitive universal codeset needs to be thought up of now. We can't honestly go on to specific buffs/nerfs unless we have a constant environment to work on.

So how about this?

Up grav: 0.95-1.1
Down grav: 1.1-1.25
Short hop: 0.9-1
Fast fall: 1.1-1.3
Dash Speed: 1-1.2
Model size: 0.9
Hitstun: 0.48-0.49

These seem to be the most common values among everyone. We should choose some hard values to use as a standard, mainly if we want this to appear in tournaments.

 

[spunit262]

Phantom Wings mentioned something about getting 7 players working but, he hasn't released the code yet (or I'm completely mistaken, spunit? Igglyboo? Clarification plz).

That's about all I've heard too. That and he's having problems with it crashing.

 

[goodoldganon]

A 5 player code would be sweet. Since that's the number of us living together and all.

 

[Osi]

I've moved to .8 SH and 1.4 Dash speed, and I am really enjoying it. I can post up some vids against some lv6 CPUs, but I wont have human competition until Tuesday. I'm spending today and tomorrow testing the larger speed changes because if it doesn't break anything than that's what I'll push for.

 

[leafgreen386]

A 1.4 dash speed doesn't break anything? See: Techchasing. I already fear sonic's techchasing as it is. That would give a ton of fast characters sonic level techchasing, and possibly break sonic's own techchasing =/

If you can techchase a player based on reaction, then we have a problem. And with brawl's slower techs, there's a chance we already do.

 

[Osi]

You are very correct leaf, that is the only thing I am worried about on 1.4 right now. Falcon and fox can tech chase way too easy, and their dash attack sets up most their combos. I still have issues tech chasing if I guess the wrong way, but I can react to the roll pretty fast. It actually feels about the same as when people rolled out of fox's down throw on melee. There is a slight window where if you react fast enough to their roll direction it's easy to follow up.

I have been wondering for a while now if there is a way to speed up the tech roll animation. Outside of the dash speed code, I still would like to see this animation sped up. Teching isn't all that rough right now, but it is definitely harder. I think the largest issue is the positive reward for a tech roll is too small.

I really thought 1.4 would feel more intense to be honest. It doesn't feel that out of place at all to me. I barely even noticed 1.2, but I do notice 1.4 a bit.

 

[goodoldganon]

A 1.4 dash speed doesn't break anything? See: Techchasing. I already fear sonic's techchasing as it is. That would give a ton of fast characters sonic level techchasing, and possibly break sonic's own techchasing =/

If you can techchase a player based on reaction, then we have a problem. And with brawl's slower techs, there's a chance we already do.

I agree. It looks **** cool and it's really fun to string those combos together but anything that high is really gonna start to cause some more balance issues.

 

[matt4300]

I haven't started on it yet, but I'm pretty sure that the first window is the buffer window.

As for the voice pitch, it's already on my todo list, but really low priority.

God bless you sir T_T your doing Gods work

hope your todo list isent extremely long >_>' but im grateful regardless

 

[CountKaiser]

It seems as though people want to make the game faster and faster. We have to put a limit on this somewhere. After all, Brawl+ should not be recreating melee here.

1.4 dash speed, frankly, sounds ridiculous. As was already mentioned, it makes tech chasing too easy. And having once experimented with 0.8 shorthop, it makes some characters short hops almost non-existent.

 

[MuBa]

We can always increase the teching window to make things like tech-chasing less prominent.

 

[Deleted member]

Phantom Wings mentioned something about getting 7 players working but, he hasn't released the code yet (or I'm completely mistaken, spunit? Igglyboo? Clarification plz).

Wouldn't the limit be 6? since that's the number of players in multi-man Brawl.

 

[kupo15]

We can always increase the teching window to make things like tech-chasing less prominent.

that makes no sense. When you increase the tech window, teching is a little thus making tech chasing more prominent

 

[Wavedash Master]

It seems as though people want to make the game faster and faster. We have to put a limit on this somewhere. After all, Brawl+ should not be recreating melee here.

1.4 dash speed, frankly, sounds ridiculous. As was already mentioned, it makes tech chasing too easy. And having once experimented with 0.8 shorthop, it makes some characters short hops almost non-existent.

What's wrong with recreating Melee?

 

[Osi]

that makes no sense. When you increase the tech window, teching is a little thus making tech chasing more prominent

I agree, increasing the window to tech will not do anything to help tech chasing. I could see the animation for tech roll being faster making tech chasing a bit harder.

Also I do not see speed increases as "recreating melee". Brawl feels too slow to me regardless. The amount of time for reaction and to think between inputs is too large IMO.

 

[Revven]

Wouldn't the limit be 6? since that's the number of players in multi-man Brawl.

No, it's 7. When there's two players in Multi-man Brawl (Co-op) it makes 7 spaces.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

the size changing idea is the worst one yet.

i'm 100% certain some moves don't scale, the death barriers would be too far out to kill, making vertical kills even worse, jumps don't scale, among other animations which they probably didn't bother scaling.

horrible idea. you can do it in your free time but certainly not something to interrupt the attention of the brawl+ hackers. you'd have to accommodate for it in a dozen different ways... and for WHAT reason, exactly??? wouldn't combos be harder because the knockback would be out of wack?

oh wait matt doesn't use hitstun...

can we discuss things of relevance here? like ones in regard to brawl+? this place is getting cluttered with stupid ideas. 8 player brawl? complaining about squeaky voices? shield colors? (to be fair i know its on kupos code agenda but then again that doesn't make sense either) WTF

 

[Deleted member]

No, it's 7. When there's two players in Multi-man Brawl (Co-op) it makes 7 spaces.

Ah, yes I forgot.

 

[MuBa]

that makes no sense. When you increase the tech window, teching is a little thus making tech chasing more prominent

You need good timing to be able to tech chase combo. With a better window you will have the options to be able to tech more efficiently. At least you won't get ***** by jab locks.

This is how it worked in Melee and I hardly got screwed over from tech chasing.

 

[BEES]

Got it to work finally. It was the GeckoOS. I had 1.07beta, upgraded to 1.07 and voila!

 

[cobaltblue]

You guys aren't really getting hung up on character balance right now are you? That part of the project alone would take awhile. Just look at SF2 remix for how long they were at it and that game had the full support of programmers and gamers.

Anyways any plans to release a new possible code set using the agreed on values?

 

[kupo15]

You need good timing to be able to tech chase combo. With a better window you will have the options to be able to tech more efficiently. At least you won't get ***** by jab locks.

This is how it worked in Melee and I hardly got screwed over from tech chasing.

tech chasing does not occur unless you tech. Not if you miss a tech then chase after..


Updated shield stun codes btw

Something really weird. I can AC ganons dair at 0 buffering now. Idk if it has to do with the updated shield stun code. I need confirmation.

 

[Osi]

I jumped on marth because I noticed a lot of people had reservations about lower jumps due to his double fair combos. .8 SH does indeed kill off the double fair in a short hop. He has a ton of new options with the dash speed at .8 though. I'm able to nair most the cast across the stage from any %. At the mid % ranges like 30-60 you can SH nair juggle across the stage without them touching the ground to tech. His fair can be replaced with SH side B to fair in many instances.

I'll edit this post in a bit with more character info on these settings. I am trying out DK/Ganon on them. I'll also be posting vids against CPUs to show these attributes.

I would consider brawl+ characters to be separate from brawl in minor areas. We would have issues changing brawl+ for the better if we put limits on changes according to only 2 or 3 moves that work different with new speeds and gravity.


Edit: Ok at .8 with DK I can not double SH bair. This would have a little impact on his gameplay. He still has awesome combo ability on brawl+, but this will affect him a bit.

He still has combos like SH uair -> neutral combo -> downsmash -> up tilt -> grab -> up throw -> up air -> Back air
This works on characters like ganon/marth/D3. The first 4 hits work on light/short characters too, but they fly too high from the up tilt to grab them. Floaty characters get out at the up tilt also. These characters can obviously have altered versions on them to keep it going.

I think DK still has plenty of combos to use. I can still land a few ones for 40 to 90% dmg at a range of % starters. The loss of double bair SH will not affect his edge game as much because you can do it off stage 3 times and still return fine. His ground game will likely need to be played a little different. He gains a lot from the dash speed and SH though. I'll post a vid of one of these juggle combos on him in a bit.

 

[kupo15]

osi can you confirm the weirdness? I can AC ganon and falcons dair at 0 buffering now when i could not before. Maybe its the updated shield stun code

 

[Alopex]

And btw a temp fix to the FF on the c stick. If you hold down on the joystick then the cstick FF will not occur. So just hold down after you jump

Uh, what? When did FF'ing with the C-stick become a problem?

Personally, I use it often as it allows me to maintain my directional momentum with the control stick.

It's not broken and, as you said, it can be avoided.

What exactly is the point of removing this feature?

What's wrong with recreating Melee?

Everything and nothing.

If you just want to do it for fun, then nothing.
If you want to have Brawl+ be a recreated Melee, then everything.

There's a reason this is not called the Melee 2.0 Project and why a lot of us here get defensive when someone suggests a code is made to make something "like Melee".

 

[gnosis]

This may have been answered somewhere, but with the buffer modifier, changing both the X's to zeros should eliminate any buffer right? Because that's how I understood it, so I did that and there's still a very noticeable amount of buffer frames.

What am I doing wrong and how do I fix it?

edit: nope still not working

 

[kupo15]

Uh, what? When did FF'ing with the C-stick become a problem?

Personally, I use it often as it allows me to maintain my directional momentum with the control stick.

It's not broken and, as you said, it can be avoided.

What exactly is the point of removing this feature?defensive when someone suggests a code is made to make something "like Melee".

Dairs on the c stick suck now. You jump off to do a dair to someone and you kill yourself because you FF when you shouldn't. Thats the point of a c stick

 

[GPDP]

osi can you confirm the weirdness? I can AC ganon and falcons dair at 0 buffering now when i could not before. Maybe its the updated shield stun code

I would really love to help confirm this, but due to my drunken stupor from last night, I left my Wii, Brawl, and my controllers at my cousin's house, and probably won't be getting them until tomorrow.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

the problem with calling it melee is that if you want this to appeal to an audience that hasn't played melee you will need to focus on making this game feel like brawl as much as possible but with some subtleties that make it competitive. by adding things like MAD you alienate 80% of the people you are trying to get to play it. MAD caters to those of you who have played melee but not to those who haven't and they'll be ****ed if they have to learn such a wierdf*ck 'advanced technique'. MAD is an extreme example, but this can apply to all kinds of augments we add to the game just to make it feel like melee. we don't want that. we want it to feel like brawl but awesomer.

 

[MuBa]

tech chasing does not occur unless you tech. Not if you miss a tech then chase after..

......what? I'm just saying tech chasing wouldn't be much of an issue if we had a bigger window for it (and perhaps a longer/farther tech) and I'm sure as hell not going to play at such low dash speed settings.

 

[cAm8ooo]

Uh, what? When did FF'ing with the C-stick become a problem?

Personally, I use it often as it allows me to maintain my directional momentum with the control stick.

It's not broken and, as you said, it can be avoided.

What exactly is the point of removing this feature?

Taking away the FF on C-stick would be wonderful. I can't wait. I can actually down air with kirby more freely of stage without worry of killing my self.

 

[WeirdoZ Inc.]

I think people need to realise the difference between Personal/Private and Competitive use. People are gonna have clashing views on which codes should be on what value, and which codes should even be included at all.

We should be aiming at this; Overall improving and balancing the mechanics of the game, then settling on a standard codeset for Brawl+ tournaments, while giving people options to use at home on their own settings.

Eg. The "standard" codeset may include ALC and No Ledge Sweetspots, but not everyone will want it in their own personal codeset at home. As long as the Personal and Competitive codesets are fairly similar, it'll be mostly interchangable.

We also need to keep this whole thread to codes that are actually useful/beneficial to IMPROVING the game. None of this extra, dare I say, useless crap, like character size mods and whatnot.

 

[Alopex]

kupo, I just tried 0 buffer and the new shieldstun code (the one without the break line), and I still can't do instant aerials.

So... I don't know how you're getting it...

 

[Wavedash Master]

Everything and nothing.

If you just want to do it for fun, then nothing.
If you want to have Brawl+ be a recreated Melee, then everything.

There's a reason this is not called the Melee 2.0 Project and why a lot of us here get defensive when someone suggests a code is made to make something "like Melee".

the problem with calling it melee is that if you want this to appeal to an audience that hasn't played melee you will need to focus on making this game feel like brawl as much as possible but with some subtleties that make it competitive. by adding things like MAD you alienate 80% of the people you are trying to get to play it. MAD caters to those of you who have played melee but not to those who haven't and they'll be ****ed if they have to learn such a wierdf*ck 'advanced technique'. MAD is an extreme example, but this can apply to all kinds of augments we add to the game just to make it feel like melee. we don't want that. we want it to feel like brawl but awesomer.

Very well. I put that out there to see if you guys were still intent in making a Brawl+ and not a second Melee. As of now, Brawl+ is definitely a lot more fast paced, but it still feels like Brawl. The way I see it, we're just making Brawl into what it should've been. I feel this project is going in the right direction and may very be successful among everybody, including Melee veterans. I hope good luck to the people working hard to make Brawl+.

 

[matt4300]

the size changing idea is the worst one yet.

i'm 100% certain some moves don't scale, the death barriers would be too far out to kill, making vertical kills even worse, jumps don't scale, among other animations which they probably didn't bother scaling.

horrible idea. you can do it in your free time but certainly not something to interrupt the attention of the brawl+ hackers. you'd have to accommodate for it in a dozen different ways... and for WHAT reason, exactly??? wouldn't combos be harder because the knockback would be out of wack?

oh wait matt doesn't use hitstun...

can we discuss things of relevance here? like ones in regard to brawl+? this place is getting cluttered with stupid ideas. 8 player brawl? complaining about squeaky voices? shield colors? (to be fair i know its on kupos code agenda but then again that doesn't make sense either) WTF

wth is your problem man? -.- i know its not going to be used and i know that its not a priority.. i simply said i like it and since we have the size code it would be nice to have it fixed...

also where did you get the idea i dont use hitstun? i use the same codeset as kupo just with a differnt CSS and 9.5 hitstun instead of 9... when did i ever say that didnet use it? chill out its just for fun... like the colored shields, 7 player code, and custom stage codes. i will keep this in PMs if it makes you feel better... >_>

 

[BEES]

The ideal game is easy to learn, hard to master, and rewarding at all points along the learning curve.

I still think adding more movements would make the game deeper and more enjoyable. Extending the fastfall window earlier, lowering the friction on a dash cancel to make it a 'slide'....

I'm really just tossing ideas out here. Jump canceling down specials? Maybe it would kill the game balance, but it's a thing. If any options we add make the offense too powerful, hitstun can always be decreased to compensate.

 

[Alopex]

Wow Bees... umm... there's a lot wrong with that mindset.

Make sweeping changes and then modify core mechanics to cater to those sweeping changes?

That's... reckless. And unnecessary.