Coaching

[X1-12]

Its a test of the player to know, and more importantly remember while in a tournament setting, that they need to space their fairs.. If they really need reminding then they can find their own time to do so

And I think the use of the word textbook is quite fitting, for example if you haven't done your revision and read your textbook (knowing the counter-pick) then its your lack of knowledge (skill) and you will do worse (which is your own fault) does this not show that knowing which stage to CP does require skill? -even if it can be somewhat basic


CPs can go beyond that though, for example some foxes work really well on platforms, so I may chose not to CP FoD when I otherwise would, however I would need to notice their playstyle for me to realise this, if a coach did it for me I'd be at an unfair advantage again

 

[Nihonjin]

I may have missed some but you get the point. the underlined are all fantastic players who can compete at or near the top level. your argument holds no weight and you are trying to be an elitist when the elite mostly don't agree with you.

The poll does not tell the whole story.

- HugS has a completely different definition of coaching and doesn't actually know whether he's for or against what we're currently discussing.

- Zgetto simply voted in favor of coaching without thinking about it at all. When I asked him why he's in favor of it his main argument was 'who cares?' and when I explained to him how it can actually affect a game, he ran away..-_-' (figuratively speaking)

- Vanityangel was in favor of coaching but changed his mind after a short debate in this thread.

- PockyD who was the main spokes person for your side of the argument on the earlier pages of this thread, talked himself into a corner and admitted he's only interested in the theory of coaching and not actually the practicality of it.


Taking that into account, I'm not entirely sure if your side really disagrees with us or simply voted without actually thinking about it or reading our arguments. Or like in HugS' case, simply have a different definition of coaching.

 

[Zgetto]

LOl amsah thats not how it went at all..
You *****es were discussing this and all i said i dont wanna hear it so i left right away without hearing all the bull****..
And yes i dont really care about that cause coaching doesnt do **** so i really dont care if its allowed or not but i wouldnt ban it cause i dont think its gonna help someone actuelly win.. the only one who seem to care is you somehow...(and noo im not gonna read the thread for all ur silly arguments and comparisons cause in theory coaching is not gonna help someone during a match)

 

[Purple]

What's HugS's definition of coaching?

lol

 

[Nihonjin]

^Something along the lines of motivating someone to play to their true potential. I don't really remember, all I know is that it did not include telling your friend about his opponents habits or anything similar.

LOl amsah thats not how it went at all..
You *****es were discussing this and all i said i dont wanna hear it so i left right away without hearing all the bull****..

I had already posted my arguments and all you said was "lalalalalaala I can't hear you *leaves*" lol

And yes i dont really care about that cause coaching doesnt do **** so i really dont care if its allowed or not but i wouldnt ban it cause i dont think its gonna help someone actuelly win.. the only one who seem to care is you somehow...(and noo im not gonna read the thread for all ur silly arguments and comparisons cause in theory coaching is not gonna help someone during a match)

Regardless of how things actually went on MSN, my point was that you're arguing from ignorance. And you're pretty much admitting it.

Because if you're unwilling to listen to how it can affect a game (and ignore the fact that it has already happened), how can you vote in favor of coaching claiming it doesn't affect games at all?

 

[Purple]

Whaddya know, me and Hugs have the same view of coaching. :/

 

[X1-12]

IIRC, Hugs' argument was that coaching doesn't help you play better at all...

 

[Nihonjin]

Whaddya know, me and Hugs have the same view of coaching. :/

Your definition is wrong.

Just because you think that's how coaching should be, doesn't change how it's currently being used.

 

[Purple]

It's currently being used that way? Where?

 

[Zgetto]

^Something along the lines of motivating someone to play to their true potential. I don't really remember, all I know is that it did not include telling your friend about his opponents habits or anything similar.



I had already posted my arguments and all you said was "lalalalalaala I can't hear you *leaves*" lol



Regardless of how things actually went on MSN, my point was that you're arguing from ignorance. And you're pretty much admitting it.

Because if you're unwilling to listen to how it can affect a game (and ignore the fact that it has already happened), how can you vote in favor of coaching claiming it doesn't affect games at all?

You can say w/e u want but simply it just doesnt affect games... ur defenition of coaching has been done for years.. even you have done it Amsah, honestly it seems a litle hypocrite to me.. I've seen you give advice during and before matches how is that different then coaching? And really it didnt help a player at all, in the end its all about the player himself.

edit: also ima stop discussing this cause i dont know why ur making such a big deal out of this... cause really its not at all, unless crappy players suddenly starting to win tournaments with coaches bring this up again..

 

[X1-12]

You can say w/e u want but simply it just doesnt affect games... ur defenition of coaching has been done for years.. even you have done it Amsah, honestly it seems a litle hypocrite to me.. I've seen you give advice during and before matches how is that different then coaching? And really it didnt help a player at all, in the end its all about the player himself.

edit: also ima stop discussing this cause i dont know why ur making such a big deal out of this... cause really its not at all, unless crappy players suddenly starting to win tournaments with coaches bring this up again..

cool story, got any sorta evidence for that? how about what if someone told JMan how to stop Amsah's camping? would it have still 'all about the player himself'

EDIT: yeah whatever leave..

 

[Smasher89]

Then if Jman had won, would there be any evidence that Amsah should have won?, none from earlier results atleast...

 

[Zgetto]

cool story, got any sorta evidence for that? how about what if someone told JMan how to stop Amsah's camping? would it have still 'all about the player himself'

EDIT: yeah whatever leave..

okay heres the thing.. who says if someone told him what to do its istant win for him?
He still has to perform it himself. And its not like jman doesnt know that already he plays with m2k for godsake.. and dont give me those bull**** with what ifs.. show me actuel results

And this is also where it becomes hypocrite cause Amsah dont tell me you havent helped out someone in a kind of situation like that.. Your prolly one of the people i've seen coach the most.. its pretty ridicilous.

And **** you for making me post again

 

[A-D]

Ok. so this was the situation : amsah was camping Jman and Jman was in a situation that he has never been in before ( which i think he has been before) but lets say he's not ... Im gonna tell Jman how to stop it . yea Jman you have to do this this and this . then Jman should have to completely change his own playingstyle ( that's one thing that won't work) and he would easier mess up so i don't think that has that much effect , and anyways this is a wrong example using Jman . It's Like your in a situation where you have never wavedashed, and someone tells you how to do it , you won't be able to perform it. so i think coaching makes you play worse

edit:Just look @ my face while posting this

 

[Nihonjin]

It's currently being used that way? Where?

Unless you're trying to argue it's not happening anywhere, what's the point in asking this question?

You can say w/e u want but simply it just doesnt affect games...

I actually remember a recent case where I got coached and won because of it. (Granted, it was a low tier tournament, but still).

ur defenition of coaching has been done for years.. even you have done it Amsah, honestly it seems a litle hypocrite to me..

I don't remember that, but even if I did, how is changing my opinion on something hypocrite?

I've seen you give advice during and before matches how is that different then coaching?

Whether or not I've did that in the past does not change the fact that I'm completely against it now.

And really it didnt help a player at all, in the end its all about the player himself.

When I went to Berlin, I played this guy Reaper in low tier.

He played Young Link (or whatever) and I wasn't sure what character to pick so I asked Nizro, he told me to go Pikachu (I would've gone Luigi otherwise, but apparently that's a really bad matchup). I played the first game and won by a hairs length, then played the second game and lost. Then Nizro told me to use nairs instead of uairs. I followed his advice and absolutely ***** Reaper. If Nizro hadn't told me to:

1) Use Pikachu and not Luigi
2) Use nairs instead of uairs

I would have have lost.

edit: also ima stop discussing this cause i dont know why ur making such a big deal out of this... cause really its not at all, unless crappy players suddenly starting to win tournaments with coaches bring this up again..

Strawman much..?

Ok. so this was the situation : amsah was camping Jman and Jman was in a situation that he has never been in before ( which i think he has been before) but lets say he's not ... Im gonna tell Jman how to stop it . yea Jman you have to do this this and this . then Jman should have to completely change his own playingstyle ( that's one thing that won't work) and he would easier mess up so i don't think that has that much effect , and anyways this is a wrong example using Jman . It's Like your in a situation where you have never wavedashed, and someone tells you how to do it , you won't be able to perform it. so i think coaching makes you play worse

edit:Just look @ my face while posting this

So you're saying people can't properly follow advice..?

What if it's something that I'm technically able to do, but never thought of using that way..?

 

[X1-12]

@smasher: What do you mean by should have won?

@Zgetto: yeah Jman still has to beat Amsah, but he now can beat Amsah on his own terms, on the stage without ledge-camping which means he's in a much better position than he was before being coached.. (still "all bout the player himself"?)

If you want another example take Amsah vs HBox

- listen: "yeah I heard shroomed just telling him to back air all the time" (44 seconds)


Even though Amsah did it only really for the first stock, he was definately dominating that stock, if shroomed was there next to him constantly reminding him he would have dominated the whole match instead of SH fairiing and crap



@A-D its not like being taught to waveland mid-match, its simple things like "Spam bairs" that can make a massive difference,


CBA with quotes so each of you are coloured different..

 

[Faab]

- listen: "yeah I heard shroomed just telling him to back air all the time" (44 seconds)


Even though Amsah did it only really for the first stock, he was definately dominating that stock, if shroomed was there next to him constantly reminding him he would have dominated the whole match instead of SH fairiing and crap
[/COLOR]

So right now you're actually claiming we should ban crowds, since it has the same effect as coaches. VERY NICE

 

[Nihonjin]

Screaming and yelling (Crowd) =/= Screaming and yelling advice (Coach)

It's similar to how we're allowed to exercise freedom of speech, but aren't allowed to incite violence, etc.

 

[X1-12]

So right now you're actually claiming we should ban crowds, since it has the same effect as coaches. VERY NICE

Nooo.. Then I was talking about how between games shroomed was coaching him.. and should have he been there coaching mid-match amsah could have kept it up and won.. I didn't ever claim we should ban crowds, but crowds shouldn't shout advice, in the same way they shouldn't shout abuse

 

[A-D]

So you're saying people can't properly follow advice..?

What if it's something that I'm technically able to do, but never thought of using that way..?

Well then you have learned something and you should be happy with that and it is fair[you played and won][nobody else]. People are being asked things on smashboards all day and are being helped with match ups and everything, how is that any different from your situation with reaper, or any situation on a tournament. ok so he told you to play something else because you didnt know the matchup, alright so he learned you something and you were the winner[again you had to do this yourself], so next time they will tell reaper to play something to counter your character/change his playing style on you. if you are the better player you WILL win EVENTUALLY .

Coaching is overrated and again here i say i dont care at all if it gets banned or not. as a matter of fact i would want it to stay actually cause it has always been that way. it's not such a biggie

Im done in this discussion

 

[Zgetto]

So all he did was help u learn the matchup better... Isnt this why people go to character specifics to learn stuff like this.. dont say thats actuelly different then on a tournament.
Thats why i think its weird cause you been doing that too and now suddenly cause you lost to pasi cause u say he was being coached it shouldnt be alowed? How is that not hypocrite..

And wow at whethe or not you did it.. thats such a bull**** u know **** well u've done it.

And btw nice example of that low tier.. that just tells me the better player has won instead of almost lost cause he didnt know the matchup.. What the hell is wrong with that infact i think its a good thing all this does is make the tournament level higher. Is that what ur scared of people learning how to play and beat you?

 

[Faab]

"shroomed is in the background telling him to backair" this was in the middle of the match.
If amsah was smart and just listened he could've won from hungrybox!

Since the advice came from the crowd i'd say we're gonna have to limit crowds to 10 people at a time and a TO at every set. /obvious sarcasm

You guys just made a stupid point that turned against you, coaching and crowds are linked. So ban both or leave both alone.

 

[Dark Hart]

whoa whoa whoa, Euro rage

 

[Purple]

Where did all the raging anti-bans come from? :o

 

[Nihonjin]

Well then you have learned something and you should be happy with that and it is fair[you played and won][nobody else]. People are being asked things on smashboards all day and are being helped with match ups and everything, how is that any different from your situation with reaper, or any situation on a tournament. ok so he told you to play something else because you didnt know the matchup, alright so he learned you something and you were the winner[again you had to do this yourself], so next time they will tell reaper to play something to counter your character/change his playing style on you. if you are the better player you WILL win EVENTUALLY.

Except, I wasn't the better player until Nizro taught me something crucial during the match. That's the whole point.

Coaching is overrated

Irrelevant.

and again here i say i dont care at all if it gets banned or not. as a matter of fact i would want it to stay actually cause it has always been that way. it's not such a biggie

You're contradicting yourself..

 

[X1-12]

I will explain again, being taught things beforehand is just like learning at school, the tournament is like the test where you have to prove yourself vs other players. Its a test of your ability. If you do badly at a tournament you go and think about what you did wrong and learn how to overcome it.


Also Zgetto, I don't even know who Pasi is but its a fallacy to disbelieve someone's argument based on their reasons for arguing, even IF it was because he lost to said person, his points are no less valid..

 

[Faab]

Where did all the raging anti-bans come from? :o

Cause i want the best coach to sit next to me and learn me how to spam bairs so i can win some bigass tourneys.

 

[Zgetto]

@smasher: What do you mean by should have won?

@Zgetto: yeah Jman still has to beat Amsah, but he now can beat Amsah on his own terms, on the stage without ledge-camping which means he's in a much better position than he was before being coached.. (still "all bout the player himself"?)

If you want another example take Amsah vs HBox

- listen: "yeah I heard shroomed just telling him to back air all the time" (44 seconds)


Even though Amsah did it only really for the first stock, he was definately dominating that stock, if shroomed was there next to him constantly reminding him he would have dominated the whole match instead of SH fairiing and crap



@A-D its not like being taught to waveland mid-match, its simple things like "Spam bairs" that can make a massive difference,


CBA with quotes so each of you are coloured different..

Aahaha you really think he would suddenly beat hungrybox?

Hey amsah i have some advice: keep spamming back air and you will beat hungrybox!

Is that alowed? i actuelly coached amsah right there u think hes suddenly gonna beat hungrybox now?

This is pretty interesting right cause first i didnt really care but now i feel like coaching is a good thing.
If someone learns amsah the matchup that would actuelly make amsah better in the long run.. WTF is wrong with that! It makes tournaments even more professional isnt that why we go to tournaments for?

 

[Jessup124]

o_O errr

 

[Zgetto]

I will explain again, being taught things beforehand is just like learning at school, the tournament is like the test where you have to prove yourself vs other players. Its a test of your ability. If you do badly at a tournament you go and think about what you did wrong and learn how to overcome it.


Also Zgetto, I don't even know who Pasi is but its a fallacy to disbelieve someone's argument based on their reasons for arguing, even IF it was because he lost to said person, his points are no less valid..

Wtf school is not smash Dont even compare that ****.
If you really wanna compare smash its prolly closest to boxing wich is were coaching is alowed to.

 

[Purple]

The idea is this Zgetto.

Pro-coaching usually supports the idea of players getting better and learning things immediately from their coach, instead of learning things from their own will power. The problem with this is that people don't like the idea of losing to a person because of their coach. Generally speaking, there's no reason (if coaching is allowed) for a player to NOT have a coach, because choosing to not have one is a disadvantage. If tournaments were pro-coaching, everyone would be entitled to one coach, and no more. In the situation you fight your coach, you have to play your coach by yourself, plain and simple. Only the crowd would be allowed to affect your gameplay.I feel with pro-coaching, you are sacrificing a bit of a fair/unfair game. Just as low skilled players lose to high skilled players, the same with happen with coaches. Coaches will generally coach lower skilled players if they're in the same level, while higher skilled players will do the same thing since they will be able to learn about their later opponent.

Pro Coaching

• 
  Pros
• Faster Growth in Skill for players
• Helps give unity between two players (i guess..?)
• Further extends the gap between high level and low level players.
  
  Cons
• Sacrifices fair play. (potential skewed brackets)
• Time is sacrificed for coaching.

Anti-Coaching is entirely different, the only thing that matters when it comes to anti-coaching is the fact that players get an 'unfair' skill boost inbetween matches. This is considered unfair. Also, even if both players have a coach, which would make the situation fair, it's felt that it isn't a battle of singles anymore, but instead a battle of singles, and the coach's influence. Also, even if people are okay with this, coaching would feel bad in their eyes for tournament organization purposes such as..

• it requires people to sign up for coaches.
• it requires players to wait on coaches during matches
• it requires there to be a time where coaches can discuss with their players in between sets (or, they could just talk during matches)

Anti Coaching

• 
  Pros
• Games are more fair; Truly 1v1
• Sets take shorter amounts of time.
  
  Cons
• Skill level increases much slower. (wait time on match recordings, IF they're recorded, studying matches on their own, waiting for smashboards responses, etc.)
• Gap between high-level and low-level is much smaller. Gimmicks are much easier to implement.

 

[X1-12]

Is that alowed? i actuelly coached amsah right there u think hes suddenly gonna beat hungrybox now?

Its giving him an unfair advantage over hungrybox.. even if the skill gap was too large for it to mean amsah would win, it still gives him an unfair advantage

This is pretty interesting right cause first i didnt really care but now i feel like coaching is a good thing.
If someone learns amsah the matchup that would actuelly make amsah better in the long run.. ?

Regardless, after losing the match Amsah was going to learn that match-up better anyway

WTF is wrong with that! It makes tournaments even more professional isnt that why we go to tournaments for

No. We go to tournaments to test our skill vs other players. If the fairness of the tournament is called into question, then how can we say its a true test of who is the best?

Since the advice came from the crowd i'd say we're gonna have to limit crowds to 10 people at a time and a TO at every set. /obvious sarcasm

You guys just made a stupid point that turned against you, coaching and crowds are linked. So ban both or leave both alone.

Cheering =/= coaching If the If the crowd were shouting that out TO can punish them, or they can just stick to cheering and anyway shroomed wouldn't have shouted that if he knew it was against the rules


So many posts so fast you may have missed by last post so plz read it

 

[Faab]

I will explain again, being taught things beforehand is just like learning at school.

How is school the same as melee. I've heard amsah using this strawman before:
"Having a coach is like somebody helping on a schooltest"

Comparing somebody helping you with a test is the same as somebody coaching you against a cpu. Impossible to compare since in smash you have a living opponent and a test is just a piece of paper unable to learn/adapt/think and whatnot.

Also Zgetto, I don't even know who Pasi is but its a fallacy to disbelieve someone's argument based on their reasons for arguing, even IF it was because he lost to said person, his points are no less valid..

It just show's what a cute reason amsah has for this debate

 

[A-D]

I wasnt gonna post anymore but people leave me no choice

Except, I wasn't the better player until Nizro taught me something crucial during the match. That's the whole point.

You were the better player because you won . Period.


Irrelevant.
It's not irrelevant. it's reasoning for not banning it .


You're contradicting yourself..

I'm not contradicting myself ; at first i didn't care but after actually giving it a good look i changed my opinion in don't caring to allow Coaching.

 

[Faab]

Cheering =/= coaching If the If the crowd were shouting that out TO can punish them, or they can just stick to cheering and anyway shroomed wouldn't have shouted that if he knew it was against the rules

Oh yeah let's have the TO pick the 1 guy out of the 100 man crowd, grow some brains and be realistic here =/

 

[Purple]

Actually X1. If Amsah lost, I don't think he would've bothered learning that MU. Notice his quick change from Luigi to Pikachu, I could assume he doesn't but hardcore time in both characters. :/

 

[X1-12]

How is school the same as melee. I've heard amsah using this strawman before:
"Having a coach is like somebody helping on a schooltest"

Comparing somebody helping you with a test is the same as somebody coaching you against a cpu. Impossible to compare since in smash you have a living opponent and a test is just a piece of paper unable to learn/adapt/think and whatnot.

It just show's what a cute reason amsah has for this debate

but you surely can't deny that a tournament is a place where you test your skills? I shan't compare this to school but still, the 'slogan' of my local ranbats is:

Want to find competition? Want to prove whos boss?
Then this is the thread for you, London Bi-Weeklies Tournaments start NOW!

You go to a tournament to prove your worth, friendlies and practise at home are ways you improve, although you may improve from playing a tourney, thats not its main function

Oh yeah let's have the TO pick the 1 guy out of the 100 man crowd, grow some brains and be realistic here =/

If the TO tells people to stop doing something, they stop doing something


Even if they don't its gonna be one person shouting louder than everyone to get heard, or someone sitting right next to them. Even if the TO only hears them do it once thats enough, Eject them or DQ them from the next tourney and I bet you no-one else will try to coach.

 

[Nihonjin]

So all he did was help u learn the matchup better... Isnt this why people go to character specifics to learn stuff like this.. dont say thats actuelly different then on a tournament.

This doesn't have anything to do with anything.

Thats why i think its weird cause you been doing that too and now suddenly cause you lost to pasi cause u say he was being coached it shouldnt be alowed? How is that not hypocrite..

You could have asked me this before I went to Berlin and I would have told you the exact same thing. It's mere coincidence that someone happened to create this thread right after the Pasi incident.

And wow at whethe or not you did it.. thats such a bull**** u know **** well u've done it.

It's irrelevant.

And btw nice example of that low tier.. that just tells me the better player has won instead of almost lost cause he didnt know the matchup..

Character knowledge is part of your skill. I didn't know it, so I didn't have the required skills to beat Reaper, until Nizro handed it to me on a silver plater.

What the hell is wrong with that infact i think its a good thing all this does is make the tournament level higher.

The part where I received help to beat my opponent.

Is that what ur scared of people learning how to play and beat you?

"shroomed is in the background telling him to backair" this was in the middle of the match.
If amsah was smart and just listened he could've won from hungrybox!

That's the problem.

Since the advice came from the crowd i'd say we're gonna have to limit crowds to 10 people at a time and a TO at every set. /obvious sarcasm

Or we could just ban giving advice and leave the crowd as is.

You guys just made a stupid point that turned against you, coaching and crowds are linked. So ban both or leave both alone.

I've already explained to you multiple times in this thread and on MSN that coaching and crowds are not the same thing.

How is school the same as melee. I've heard amsah using this strawman before:
"Having a coach is like somebody helping on a schooltest"

You clearly have no idea what a strawman is. And explain to me why it's different from being helped on a test.

Comparing somebody helping you with a test is the same as somebody coaching you against a cpu. Impossible to compare since in smash you have a living opponent and a test is just a piece of paper unable to learn/adapt/think and whatnot.

Would you allow coaching in a Chess match..?

 

[Zgetto]

So pretty much its turned into a matter of opinion now...
If u want to limit Yourself u should ban it.
If u want to improve ur skills to the max u should allow it.
And in the end no matter what u say, its all about the player himself and the ability to perform to the max.

And random guy what you say about tournaments are for testing ur skills.. Not its not at all, tournaments is about 1 thing and thats about doing the best u can do with no limitations.

 

[Purple]

Melee is a freelance game, unlike chess Amsah. If someone tells your opponent to make a move, that's it, you're ****ed. Because each move you make is countered by another move, in chess. You can't change your strategy or gambit on the fly. That's not the case in melee or boxing for that matter.