Clowsui and Hilt present: RETRIBUTION//Results are up

[Ori_bro]

P1 is in here ofc its gonna suck.

 

[Player-1]

When abbreviated I like to be called "P 1"


Thank you kindly.

 

[Ori_bro]

When abbreviated I like to be called "P 1"


Thank you kindly.

kk P1 .

 

[Player-1]

MI is such a rude state.

Shame.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

I really hope Brinstar is legal. D:

 

[DeLux]

I no longer need a teammate for this

 

[Ori_bro]

MI is such a rude state.

Shame.

P1 I'm playing the world's snallest Violin right now ♪

 

[Ridley Silverlake]

Are you implieing that stages are not part of the game? Knowing the stage is part of the game that should be rewarded, not punished. US for a long time has believed that predictable hazards are an acceptable part of the game, which is still player vs player. Should Frigate be banned because the moving platform can drag you off the stage if you trip? (which has happened to me before, and I blame myself for being on that platform). Should SV be banned because being grabbed on the platform can lead to 0 to deaths with grab realease/ exclusive chaingrabs? As long as the stage isn't a third party that can affect either player randomly that definition of PvPvS is terrible, because the STAGE isn't deciding who wins and who loses. I don't even like brinstar, but your logic is ridiculously stupid if you think acid is the problem with brinstar.

I am implying so such notion. I am however saying that I'm pretty damn sure the platform on smashville, the platform on Frigate, Frigate's flip mechanics, Pokemon Stadium's transformations, and some other things are FAR and AWAY less influencial and intrusive on a Player vs Player match than the acid on Brinstar...or at least MUCH less consistently than the acid. Acid IS the problem with Brinstar and you're just being too stubborn to admit it because you're probably scared of the Ice Climbers or something. Behind every eloquent wall of reasoning lies a person's true motive for wanting something, you included. I highly, HIGHLY doubt that adhering to competitive values or preserving as much of what can be deemed usable in the game is a high priority on your mind. As simpleminded as it sounds, at least I'm being honest...Brinstar should not be in because I'd rather play a match where my opponent and I can place the majority of our focus on EACH OTHER rather than dance around the third party intrusion on that circus of a stage.

Yes, I am a MK main with no previous winnings or anything of the sort offline...but you are a ROB main which is already a mistake and I know I would easily send you packing so your opinion is just as valid as mine if we're basing our 'weight-of-word' off of credentials alone.

 

[sneakytako]

P1 I'm playing the world's snallest Violin right now ♪

Ur using this reference wrong.

You should use it when people are like 'omg life is so unfair poor me'.

In this case the proper response should be something along the lines of 'MI, **** yeah'

I tried looking for a pic, but I couldn't find any pictures that depicted MI pride.

 

[Player-1]

That's because MI shouldn't have any pride.


And wtf is a snall violin?

 

[sneakytako]

I am implying so such notion. I am however saying that I'm pretty damn sure the platform on smashville, the platform on Frigate, Frigate's flip mechanics, Pokemon Stadium's transformations, and some other things are FAR and AWAY less influencial and intrusive on a Player vs Player match than the acid on Brinstar...or at least MUCH less consistently than the acid. Acid IS the problem with Brinstar and you're just being too stubborn to admit it because you're probably scared of the Ice Climbers or something. Behind every eloquent wall of reasoning lies a person's true motive for wanting something, you included. I highly, HIGHLY doubt that adhering to competitive values or preserving as much of what can be deemed usable in the game is a high priority on your mind. As simpleminded as it sounds, at least I'm being honest...Brinstar should not be in because I'd rather play a match where my opponent and I can place the majority of our focus on EACH OTHER rather than dance around the third party intrusion on that circus of a stage.

Yes, I am a MK main with no previous winnings or anything of the sort offline...but you are a ROB main which is already a mistake and I know I would easily send you packing so your opinion is just as valid as mine if we're basing our 'weight-of-word' off of credentials alone.

If you think that knowledge of a stage is not part of player skill then this conversation is pointless. GL at tournies, I hope you don't face sonics of YI lawlawlawl.

Also I'm a D3 main. You would know that if you went to/followed tournaments in your own region.

That's because MI shouldn't have any pride.


And wtf is a snall violin?

Yes that was what I was implying. Or rather MI shouldn't have anything to be proud of, which should have set up an epic zinoto insult from you.

Grammar nazi is a weak comeback dude.

You shame all trolls 1P.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Brinstar rarely makes or breaks a match through the acid. Sharking and platform placement are usually the biggest offenders.

I'd rather see bans of stage where luck is a strong factor in how the game plays out (ban Frigate; sometimes the stage never flips, and sometimes it flips ten times).

 

[Ridley Silverlake]

If you think that knowledge of a stage is not part of player skill then this conversation is pointless. GL at tournies, I hope you don't face sonics of YI lawlawlawl.

Also I'm a D3 main. You would know that if you went to/followed tournaments in your own region.

...Are you that dense? I know knowledge of a stage is part of having player skill but what I'M arguing is that some stages are much more intrusive than others, some to the point where knowledge will only do a player so much service. GL a tournies ROB main who I haven't heard of other than being a translator at Apex, I hope you don't face s on anywhere lawlawlawl....oh wait, word on the street is that you pick and choose what events you go to based on his presence and your only truly notable win is against Diddy Kong. Congratulations?

That's wonderful...you main two characters that get equally slaughtered by one. This self-inflicted, impossible ultimatum coming from a player preaching so much about game knowledge. Oh, the irony.

 

[What's The Point]

Frigate is the least janky of all the CPs (and one Starter with 7 of them). Sure, random flip, but the layout is much better than most other stages. Hell when you CP the stage you don't want flips because the flipped part is generally a great stage for the characters you usually CP there.

Brinstar does suck because it has a ****ty floor, but the acid is still terrible.

Why is CS the 7th Starter? I know once you hit 7 you really have to grasp for that last stage (which is why 7 starters is bad) but CS is terrible in every transformation. First part is tiny and has the worst edge lip, second part is walk off and circle camping, and the third part part is FD combined with Lylat. I'd put most other stages on before this.

 

[Ori_bro]

That's because MI shouldn't have any pride.


And wtf is a snall violin?

I hate typing really fast on my phone. I always misclick.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Frigate is the least janky of all the CPs (and one Starter with 7 of them). Sure, random flip, but the layout is much better than most other stages. Hell when you CP the stage you don't want flips because the flipped part is generally a great stage for the characters you usually CP there.

Right, but, we shouldn't have counterpicks that are effective almost entirely based on luck. You don't see a problem if a person goes there as Olimar, hoping that the stage flips once and stays that way?

The advantages people count on should be predictable and reliable. Most of the advantages on Frigate are neither. The more luck that's involved in a match, the more dissatisfied people will potentially be with the game's outcome. We want things to be as reliable as possible without taking out too much depth. What depth does Frigate Orpheon provide that other stages do not?

 

[What's The Point]

Then that person is dumb. Frigate starts on the CPy side, you can assume you will play on that part more than the flipped one. I can rely on starting the match on the side I like which is usually enough for me.


Both PS stages pick transformation orders at random, Halberd picks obstacles at random, Delfino has at least two transformation orders picked at random, Lylats tilting is random. We accept certain degrees of randomness because it's built into basically any stage with movement.

Note that I don't mean true random when I say random. Bring highly varied or regularly off by seconds still counts. Brinstar, I believe, has several set patterns, picked at random, but the shifts are still off by random seconds even if you get the same pattern. So the acid also counts.

 

[sneakytako]

IDK WTP, CPing Frigate against tether grabs chars and hoping that the majority of the match doesn't stay on the second stage is kinda wack.

Delfino though man, worst stage ever.

 

[Ridley Silverlake]

I agree with WTP on the degrees of randomness being inherent with certain movement based stages and on Brinstar being included with that bunch because of the acid...though included with my original point about the level of intrusion of said randomness or hazards being a big factor in why we tend to deem some stages more viable to play on over others.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Then that person is dumb. Frigate starts on the CPy side, you can assume you will play on that part more than the flipped one. I can rely on starting the match on the side I like which is usually enough for me.


Both PS stages pick transformation orders at random, Halberd picks obstacles at random, Delfino has at least two transformation orders picked at random, Lylats tilting is random. We accept certain degrees of randomness because it's built into basically any stage with movement.

Note that I don't mean true random when I say random. Bring highly varied or regularly off by seconds still counts. Brinstar, I believe, has several set patterns, picked at random, but the shifts are still off by random seconds even if you get the same pattern. So the acid also counts.

The same example is just as strong for people who counterpick for the unflipped side. Stage flips in twenty seconds, stays that way for the rest of the game. Luck plays a huge factor in how favorable or unfavorable the stage is for you.

The difference between Frigate and the rest of the levels you listed is that those stage hazards always happen, and any (dis)advantages are easy to mitigate (camp the Rock on Stadium; acid is really weak and is easy to see coming; Halberd's hazard are really easy to avoid). You can't really do anything to prevent the Olimar from camping the middle of the stage if the stage flips, and you don't even know if that's going to be a factor in the match AT ALL. I don't think "hope the stage flips back soon" is a reasonable strategy to expect competitive players to deal with when it can potentially not flip at all. That's why I consider the stage to have an unacceptable amount of luck involved.

 

[Ridley Silverlake]

Weak and easy to see coming. Free shuttle loop or up-air kill for even the smallest mistake or minimal pressure to force someone off of that top platform. Mmm

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Weak and easy to see coming. Free shuttle loop for even the smallest mistake or minimal pressure to force someone off of that top platform. Mmm

The opponent is moving away from the stage/opponent for all of, like, two-and-a-half seconds. Meta Knight doesn't have the horizontal aerial mobility to cause much pressure in that situation unless he's already in an advantageous position as the acid is rising (hitting with U-Air, edgeguarding, etc.). That's hardly a Meta Knight-exclusive aspect of using the acid to one's advantage.

 

[What's The Point]

I mean, if you can't plan for and fight on both parts of Frigate, you probably shouldn't have picked it. You shouldn't think of the stage as one side or the other. You have to be ready to fight on both. Regardless of stage flippery, both sides are perfectly fine stage layouts. There is nothing terrible about them to make them ban worthy, and the flip is highly telegraphed. And it's still way better than CS.

 

[Ridley Silverlake]

The opponent is moving away from the stage/opponent for all of, like, two-and-a-half seconds. Meta Knight doesn't have the horizontal aerial mobility to cause much pressure in that situation unless he's already in an advantageous position as the acid is rising (hitting with U-Air, edgeguarding, etc.). That's hardly a Meta Knight-exclusive aspect of using the acid to one's advantage.

True, but what character other than Metaknight is going to find themselves in such a position, or better yet...consistently force themselves into such a position as consistently. That is part of the reason why sharking is such a big issue on the stage, it gives him a go-to tactic to exploit and force said advantageous underneath position before or as the acid rises. I realize this is starting to drift towards a "what can MK do in this situation?" direction, but then again what in this game doesn't at some point.

We should just keep Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise banned for the hell of it. Characters still have plenty of options to work with against characters such as Falco, Diddy, Olimar, and the Ice Climbers. We don't need these superpower playgrounds added into the mix when he and others can manage just fine with Delfino, Stadium, frigate, Halberd, Siege, and the other handful of decently varied stages.

 

[Player-1]

Brinstar rarely makes or breaks a match through the acid. Sharking and platform placement are usually the biggest offenders.

I'd rather see bans of stage where luck is a strong factor in how the game plays out (ban Frigate; sometimes the stage never flips, and sometimes it flips ten times).

I disagree about acid, I find it impacts the match by a pretty big margin. But yes frigate should be banned brinstar should be banned. PS2 is debatable, but as long as brinstar is gone abd RC is legal then in happy with the stage list

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I mean, if you can't plan for and fight on both parts of Frigate, you probably shouldn't have picked it. You shouldn't think of the stage as one side or the other. You have to be ready to fight on both. Regardless of stage flippery, both sides are perfectly fine stage layouts. There is nothing terrible about them to make them ban worthy, and the flip is highly telegraphed. And it's still way better than CS.

"If you can't plan for acid and fight adequately on Brinstar regardless of the acid level, you probably shouldn't have picked it." The obvious (and reasonable) response is that other players shouldn't have to deal with other people hoping they're in the right place at the right time when the acid comes up, but, at least you can predict the acid to a degree.

(As an aside, I don't think Brinstar is acceptable for competitive play, either.)

True, but what character other than Metaknight is going to find themselves in such a position, or better yet...consistently force themselves into such a position as consistently. That is part of the reason why sharking is such a big issue on the stage, it gives him a go-to tactic to exploit and force said advantageous underneath position before or as the acid rises. I realize this is starting to drift towards a "what can MK do in this situation?" direction, but then again what in this game doesn't at some point.

Wario's really good at it. Game and Watch is really good at it. Toon Link is really good at it. Again, it is not at all exclusive to Meta Knight. Acid stop sharking nonsense in the first place; it doesn't contribute to its power very much.

Rainbow Cruise is a perfectly fine stage, and I'm not going to argue about that.

 

[What's The Point]

I don't really see why you brought up Brinstar, but the difference is Brinstar is a ****ty stage. Remove the acid and Brinstar is still a ****ty stage.

 

[Keitaro]

Rainbow Cruise is a perfectly fine stage, and I'm not going to argue about that.

0_o

I think the opposite, that Rainbow Cruise is obviously not fine and that there is no reason to argue it. Saying it is perfectly fine sounds insane. Don't mean to single out MK, but fighting one that has no intention on approaching besides the terrible part with the sharkable platforms near the blast zone, moving carpets, and overhead blocks is one of the most stupid tactics in the game.

I got 3 stocked by Esam on Yoshi's then took him to 70% last stock on RC with a terrible pocket MK.

 

[Xatic]

#Randomtopicswitch

but within the next couple weeks, I'll be running a few stream tests and stuff to show off layouts, test things out for myself personally, and a couple other things.

Ori will probably be making my layouts again. If you want to throw some ideas at me or throw your own layout to be taken into consideration, contact me on skype (daywalker562) or send me a PM on SWF.

I'll let you guys know when I start doing them officially, but it'll be in a couple weeks if anyone is interested in taking a look at it.

 

[Ridley Silverlake]

I don't really see why you brought up Brinstar, but the difference is Brinstar is a ****ty stage. Remove the acid and Brinstar is still a ****ty stage.

This.

0_o

I think the opposite, that Rainbow Cruise is obviously not fine and that there is no reason to argue it. Saying it is perfectly fine sounds insane. Don't mean to single out MK, but fighting one that has no intention on approaching besides the terrible part with the sharkable platforms near the blast zone, moving carpets, and overhead blocks is one of the most stupid tactics in the game.

I got 3 stocked by Esam on Yoshi's then took him to 70% last stock on RC with a terrible pocket MK.

And this.

Just keep these two stages out of the mix. I think we're all at the point in the game's life where people are done caring about trying the make the most logical choices regarding stages and stuff. We just don't want to deal with the stupid jank and fight. FIGHT. FIGHT.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I realize this is starting to drift towards a "what can MK do in this situation?" direction, but then again what in this game doesn't at some point.

We don't need these superpower playgrounds added into the mix when he and others can manage just fine with Delfino, Stadium, frigate, Halberd, Siege, and the other handful of decently varied stages.

Don't mean to single out MK, but fighting one that has no intention on approaching besides the terrible part with the sharkable platforms near the blast zone, moving carpets, and overhead blocks is one of the most stupid tactics in the game.

I got 3 stocked by Esam on Yoshi's then took him to 70% last stock on RC with a terrible pocket MK.

...

 

[clowsui]

I believe what Reflex's punchline is

Scumbag Keitaro and Ridley: go into MK banned tournament thread, bring up MK in stagelist discussions

 

[Ridley Silverlake]

I didn't specifically mention Yoshi's Island for a reason...nice try. Fighting the Ice Climbers or Pikachu with Falco which I imagine is what he was doing, is just as much of a challenge as fighting them on any other mostly static stage. Add into the mix that his general phantasm mobility gets cut and I can see why he got three stocked in either matchup...

The part about him beinging ESAM to last stock with his terrible pocket MK on Rainbow Cruise only further reinforces my point about it being a playground...among other stupid factors like having to deliberately chase someone down for 2/3rds of a match.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I believe what Reflex's punchline is

Scumbag Keitaro and Ridley: go into MK banned tournament thread, bring up MK in stagelist discussions

Complain about stages being stupid due to Meta Knight in a discussion involving an MK-banned ruleset.

That's why there are different stages with such a different metagame involved.

I didn't specifically mention Yoshi's Island for a reason...nice try. Fighting the Ice Climbers or Pikachu with Falco which I imagine is what he was doing, is just as much of a challenge as fighting them on any other mostly static stage. Add into the mix that his general phantasm mobility gets cut and I can see why he got three stocked in either matchup...

The part about him beinging ESAM to last stock with his terrible pocket MK on Rainbow Cruise only further reinforces my point about it being a playground...among other stupid factors like having to deliberately chase someone down for 2/3rds of a match.

What do ICs/Pikachu vs. Falco have to do with...anything? Weren't we talking about Brinstar and Frigate?

And I came to an MK-banned thread expecting to avoid talk concerning the banned character. Who cares how dumb MK is if he's not allowed on any stage?

 

[Ridley Silverlake]

No... or not, those stages are still incredibly intrusive and just plain stupid to play a decent match on. Free acid combo to waft or up-air, or someone is shielding on the top platform and Wario bites their shield and forces them off so they go "crap I can't hit the acid"...and it just turns into a really stupid game of ring-around-the-rosey while literally not being crapped on from there.

GamenWatch is just plain bad so he isn't much of an issue. Any decent Marth or something will do.

The stages are just dumb, boys. There are already a healthy number of counterpicks to choose from.

 

[Player-1]

RC is a perfectly fine stage even with MK, it's called a stage ban, use it.

 

[KassandraNova]

Complain about stages being stupid due to Meta Knight in a discussion involving an MK-banned ruleset.

That's why there are different stages with such a different metagame involved.

I was just about to say this.
Yeah, the whole stage discussion involving people using possible metaknight tactics as a valid point for arguing against a stage's legality at a metaknight BANNED tournament is pretty silly, and not relevant to this tournament at all.

It's such a sad thing when even mk banned tournament threads start discussing mks effect on different things. Haha.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The ridiculous advantage the stage creates for some characters is potentially a problem, yes.

However, I would argue that Rainbow Cruise isn't a big deal in an MK-banned environment. No other character has the potential to be nearly as dominant there (though there are obviously some characters that excel, like G&W). Perfectly reasonable counterpick material.

I was just about to say this.
Yeah, the whole stage discussion involving people using possible metaknight tactics as a valid point for arguing against a stage's legality at a metaknight BANNED tournament is pretty silly, and not relevant to this tournament at all.

It's such a sad thing when even mk banned tournament threads start discussing mks effect on different things. Haha.

I knowwwwww. I'm posting in here and going to this tournament because I wouldn't have to deal with it, but, you just can't escape sometimes, I guess.

 

[clowsui]

No... or not, those stages are still incredibly intrusive and just plain stupid to play a decent match on. Free acid combo to waft or up-air, or someone is shielding on the top platform and Wario bites their shield and forces them off so they go "crap I can't hit the acid"...and it just turns into a really stupid game of ring-around-the-rosey while literally not being crapped on from there.

GamenWatch is just plain bad so he isn't much of an issue. Any decent Marth or something will do.

The stages are just dumb, boys. There are already a healthy number of counterpicks to choose from.

Wario's stage control is rewarded by allowing him to take advantage of the (apparently patterned) acid vs DDD's stage control + defense on FD is rewarded by allowing him to easily capitalize on a CG-able character.

Are these different?

GW is amazing on Brinstar.

Also Reflex why do you think Brinstar is bannable despite patterned acid? Sharking?

 

[Keitaro]

Honestly I should have known this was an MK banned event the moment I saw Reflex posting in it :/

RC with MK banned is still very campy and gimmicky. If the players attending this tournament are fine with it then so be it. I'd probably skip out on a tourney with both RC and Delphino legal personally, even with MK banned. Went to a tourney like that before and wanted to rip my hair out.

Life has been so much better without Unity. Less gray hairs.

I also have a personal vendetta against Frigate since no matter what advice I have been given in the past I end up under the stage and losing a match because of it. But I won't argue that.