Clarification on the Wobbles: IT WAS NOT BANNED FOR BEING GOOD

[KishPrime]

I'm not sure why everyone believes that it was agreed to be unfair, but it never was declared broken by any "official" source. At MELEE-FC, it was never banned. At the final FC, FCD, three players tried to use wobbling strats and only one made the bracket (and I don't even think he wobbled as it was Chu). The Smash Back Room took a vote, and it was voted NOT broken by about a 25-4 margin, or some such obscene value.

It was banned for two reasons:
1. The Scrub Mentality. Even though many players developed strategies to beat it, many players with a scrub mentality instead spent their time complaining on the boards about it. As people read the complaints, the opinion that it was broken spread around the boards, while the people who developed strategies to beat it simply and quietly took care of business (and IC players).

2. Frightened TO's. The vast majority of Tournament Organizers were simply scared that their events would be "ruined" by someone coming in and wobbling everyone. This was exemplified by other major tournaments such as OC and Pound. Both of them did not ban the Wobbles because it was too good, but rather because it was either "gay" or because they didn't want it to ruin their events.

As far as Brawl goes, a vast majority of tournaments are not won by Ice Climbers players, even though there are several people around the country maining them. Until this happens, I would not expect to see it banned at any respectable tournaments.

Now that this is clear, no one can use Melee as justification that infinites should be banned in Brawl. Just wanted to get that out there, now have a nice day.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Thank you, Kish. It's nice to get a little knowledge passed around the boards.

 

[memphischains]

EC? We're not like that on the EC.

 

[pockyD]

yeah EC is definitely like that

 

[Kyu Puff]

and massachusetts is the most anti-gay state of all...

 

[memphischains]

Elaborate....

 

[Kyu Puff]

well, y'know, with our anti-gay mentality and banning of anything "gay"

 

[memphischains]

that doesn't explain anything

 

[Kyu Puff]

the banning of anything "gay"... like gay marriage... so characteristic of MA.

It was a vague, stupid joke, shuddup.


Edit -- Alpha, hasn't most of the IC infinite controversy been centered in Texas?

 

[flaco]

good to know my friends good job on clarifying these

 

[AlphaZealot]

In Brawl, yea.

In Melee, Pound 3 and others banned Wobbling, and it was almost banned in an upcoming Florida tournament.

 

[Tom]

good to know my friends good job on clarifying these

flaco strikes again.

 

[UberBlackCleric]

In Brawl, yea.

In Melee, Pound 3 and others banned Wobbling, and it was almost banned in an upcoming Florida tournament.

I liked FAST's(or was it goergia's?) ruling on wobbling on that you could only do it to 150% or else it becomes stalling.

 

[Deleted member]

Tim, this is really surprising even for me. I guess I'll only go at the points I hold relevance to.

I'm not sure why everyone believes that it was agreed to be unfair, but it never was declared broken by any "official" source.

As has been the case in the SBR for about the past year or so, most of the decisions at the ends of the polls have been "left to the tournament organizers". That's the whole reason I wanted a final, standardized rule set from my topic from a few months ago. Since the only "official" source of rulings is completely indecisive at best, the next best "official" source was of course the many tournament organizers. And many of them -did- ban Wobbling, many moreso than did not. You could say that 2 of the 3 largest tournaments from 2007 banned it and that would be correct, but there were several other tournaments that were decently large thatbanned the infinite and they're also important.

1. The Scrub Mentality. Even though many players developed strategies to beat it, many players with a scrub mentality instead spent their time complaining on the boards about it. As people read the complaints, the opinion that it was broken spread around the boards, while the people who developed strategies to beat it simply and quietly took care of business (and IC players).

You'll notice that even now, there is no conclusive "strategy to beat it". The best we have is "don't get grabbed" like we told people vs Sheik in 2003. The only difference is, after 30 seconds and 100 damage, you can play again, it doesn't end the match conclusively at a single err. Even as players figured out that you can mash and get out at 2 reasonable percentages, the infinite was refined so that strategy no longer worked (jab cancel rather than ftilt).

Until this happens, I would not expect to see it banned at any respectable tournaments.

Maybe for Brawl. Brawl wobble mechanics will not allow the wobble to equal a free win as it did in melee, aka a perfect chaingrab that works on any character on any stage at any damage to any damage for any amount of time into any move, or simply until the clock runs out.

 

[takieddine]

This is a dumb argument, Noobs might not get far with it, but if you're on par with a player around the same skill level as you are, and they just happen to have wobbling on their side, guess what happens?

This is pushed mainly by IC's players. Wobbling IS broken because of its simplicity of execution (dont give me "its hard to get a grab" bull****), and the fact that no ammount of DI or wiggling the stick will get you out of it.

This thread is bad and you should feel bad.
/end rant

 

[Hylian]

Something should not be banned unless it hinders the tournament scene/metagame ect.

Wobbling didn't really affect the tournament scene at all. The only two climber players that were winning tournaments were Chu and Wobbles, and both did the same without wobbling. They both placed the same at major tournament no matter if wobbling was allowed or not. It never dominated and there is no reason to ban it until proven game breaking. Does it give IC's huge advantages? Hell yes. Does it make them REALLY hard to beat? Hell yes. Does it dominate tournaments?

No.

 

[Vall3y]

the cries on wobbles will never end.
@takieddine: marth and peach can still beat an IC that play on their same level pretty much. now lets say a fox plays a mario and they're on the same skill level too, who wins? and still, IC are not close to be top tier even with wobbles.
be careful this is becoming another why should wobbles be/not be banned

i believe this wobbles craze is so great because the smash community is so young (relatively, especially in terms of competition) and a lot of players came without background in other games, so its their first time to encounter something so intimidating as the wobbles (when in truth its not much different than fox's shine spikes or falco's lasers)

if it turned out that the ec bans wobbles and the wc doesnt, i believe it could be because the ec has many new-to-competitive-games players and the wc hasnt. i cant see how anyone with more experience in this, and not a complete scrub, wont see how absurd it is banning wobbles

 

[yoshi_fan]

I think wobbles should be banned in low-level tournaments to middle-level tournaments because no everbody is going to have skill enough to avoid a simple grab. In the other side, the greatest tournaments should un-ban it so we can see if it's really game breaking or not (at top level of skill i mean).

 

[WhalesOnStilts]

This is a dumb argument, Noobs might not get far with it, but if you're on par with a player around the same skill level as you are, and they just happen to have wobbling on their side, guess what happens?

This is pushed mainly by IC's players. Wobbling IS broken because of its simplicity of execution (dont give me "its hard to get a grab" bull****), and the fact that no ammount of DI or wiggling the stick will get you out of it.

This thread is bad and you should feel bad.
/end rant

If they can "wobble" in Brawl, then they probably aren't of the same skill level. <_<
It takes skill in Brawl. >_>

 

[Yuna]

I liked FAST's(or was it goergia's?) ruling on wobbling on that you could only do it to 150% or else it becomes stalling.

That's the only thing I wanna change at the moment: the 999% stalling rule. 300% should be the limit, max. Because at 300%, there's no possible way for you to survive.

 

[Deleted member]

unless you're m2k in teams, then you break out at some absurd damage and kill BOTH opponents in the finals.

I have a better solution: no wobbling.

I mean, it clearly has no impact on placings right? Just like everyone has said?

Good. No one will miss it.

 

[KishPrime]

It is true that infinite grabs may become broken in Brawl since there is no more wiggling out under 50%. But I was merely clarifying that it was never banned because it was too good, only because of other reasons.

"No stall" rules were always in effect, and are a separate issue.

 

[flaco]

flaco strikes again.

lol wow long time I see

 

[greenblob]

What's the difference between Wobbling and comboing?

 

[Hylian]

It is true that it may become broken in Brawl since there is no more wiggling out under 50%. But I was merely clarifying that it was never banned because it was too good, only because of other reasons.

"No stall" rules were always in effect, and are a separate issue.

Wobbling isn't even possible in brawl...Being hit does not keep you in a grab.

 

[Sinz]

Hylian, Dugfinn has been telling me that a scrub who is playing IC's was owning tournies with the IC infinite. Is this true?(I am talkin about a guy who she said had just picked up the game like a month ago.)

 

[takieddine]

What's the difference between Wobbling and comboing?

Skill .

Arguing that people are "new to competitive fighters" is really as dumb as wobbling itself. Bottom line, wobbling breaks the game, in that it leads to a kill every time you land a grab with both IC's present (which is not that uncommon) with very minimal skill required, therefore very little room for error. I realize there are other infinites in other fighters, but my main concern is that wobbling is really easy (learned within 5 minutes), and easy to pull off with unfair results.

Thats to say I dont mind their other infinites because they take some skill, and DI can affect them.

 

[KishPrime]

Wobbling isn't even possible in brawl...Being hit does not keep you in a grab.

I edited. Instead of "wobbles in Brawl" I meant "infinite grabs in Brawl," since that's what most people read Wobbles as (an infinite grab 0-death, which was clearly false in Melee). I just helped to perpetuate the rumor by accident.

Nevertheless, I don't believe they will come to be banned, though I could be wrong. There is a logistical problem in banning them anyway because of how many chaingrabs and infinite grabs there actually are.

 

[takieddine]

Its that little error in speech that makes the difference, Kish. Now I agree with you.

I agree with you then infinite grabs (as in trading grabs between IC's) does take skill and has room for error, so i wouldn't mind losing to that.

 

[Hylian]

Hylian, Dugfinn has been telling me that a scrub who is playing IC's was owning tournies with the IC infinite. Is this true?(I am talkin about a guy who she said had just picked up the game like a month ago.)

LOL. She is talking about Melee1. He was a very good melee player, so he isn't just some random scrub. And he isn't even good at the infinites and doesn't chaingrab much. He has a very good IC's. And I played him at a recent tournament and 2 stocked him. I got grabbed once. He is beating people because they don't play smart and he is good. He does chaingrabs that are escapable, but apparently she doesn't know that, which isn't surprising as I doubt DugFinn knows anything about the Ice Climbers aside from the fact that her friends can't beat them.

 

[AlphaZealot]

You could say that 2 of the 3 largest tournaments from 2007 banned it and that would be correct, but there were several other tournaments that were decently large thatbanned the infinite and they're also important.

Pound 2: wobbling banned (and ChuDat won, the irony)
FC: wobbling not banned
SCC: wobbling not banned
OC: ???
EVO: wobbling not banned

Those were the 5 largest tournaments.

 

[Jam Stunna]

I've noticed that the Smash community has been tending towards banning alot of stuff. I was an IC main in Melee, and even though I never actually did it (I sucked at it, haha), I found the ban to be ridiculous. The ICs had so many other weaknesses that anyone with even a little skill could gimp Nana. They were at the mercy of pretty much the entire tier list above them.

What people don't seem to understand is that it's not the ICs that are beating you, it's the player. Chu Dat won tournaments, not the Ice Climbers. The same with Wobbles. If Chu used any other character, he'd still beat 98% of Smashers. Wobbles DID use other characters quite often, and always placed well.

I've said this before: If your opponent devises a tactic or strategy that is successful, then it is incumbent upon you to adjust. It is not incumbent upon the community to level the playing field for you.

 

[Yuna]

Skill .

Arguing that people are "new to competitive fighters" is really as dumb as wobbling itself. Bottom line, wobbling breaks the game, in that it leads to a kill every time you land a grab with both IC's present (which is not that uncommon) with very minimal skill required, therefore very little room for error. I realize there are other infinites in other fighters, but my main concern is that wobbling is really easy (learned within 5 minutes), and easy to pull off with unfair results.

Thats to say I dont mind their other infinites because they take some skill, and DI can affect them.

Ease to do has nothing to do with it. If something is possible, then someone will learn how to do it. Something isn't less bannable just because it's harder to do if it yields the same result as something else that's easier to do.

They're both broken all the same and if one is banned, so should the other and vice versa.

It's not gamebreaking if it's easy to do. Nor is it any more gamebreaking. No matter how hard, someone will learn to do it near-flawlessly. If it breaks the game, we ban it. If it doesn't, we don't, no matter if 10 or 100 people are doing it.

 

[dj_pwn1423]

lawls game breaking... thats the reason we dont get consistent winners and the ICs win most of the tournaments /sarcasm

seriusly people... we shouldnt ban stuff just because its too good. It makes the game even more... not deep. =/

 

[memphischains]

I'm still waiting on the elaboration on the EC comments. We aren't like that.

 

[pockyD]

EC is more ban-happy than WC, that's all

 

[choknater]

Hahah, the only major wobbling blunder was Ken losing to Chu and Wobbles at SCC, YAYUHZZZZ.

 

[slartibartfast42]

At the final FC, FCD

So FCD was the last one? Shoot, I was looking forward to FC8...

I liked FAST's(or was it goergia's?) ruling on wobbling on that you could only do it to 150% or else it becomes stalling.

That's really dumb. If you have them at 150%, they're dead anyway. Of course it would be considered stalling. I don't see why it's practical to ban it at that point though.

 

[Tom]

that must be FAST's rule because the rule at the Georgia tournament was "you can wobble, but then they and their friends get to wobble you with real hammers"

 

[JFox]

If wobbling is allowed, I think we should unban m2's soul stunner. Its clearly just as broken, and he is a low tier.

BTW if it weren't for EC and its "anti-gay" mentality, you west coast mothas would still be catching beam swords