ChronoBound's Thoughts On The Brawl Roster.... (very long read)

[SvartWolf]

dissapointing... i mean, yeah, SEE cool, i really love it how seems o be one of teh best side scrolling games i've ever seen but, in five years more we won't be playing SEE despite all the awesomeness that it could be, we will be playing brawl (i mean multiplayer) and we are going to play that until smash 4 comes out... thats what truly survives the sands of time, and thats the roster is one of the most important things...

I still have a di light of hope that mewtwo is unlockable through some curios way like "have brawl during one month" and thats why he cannot be leaked.. but it's unlikely...

i mean, at least give me ONE reason why the should remove mewtwo from the game??? one! not only original moveset but also UNIQUE... he needed just some buffs... or heck, without buffs i would still find it ok... i mean, he is OUR bottom tier!

Ridley was also a big dissapointment... I was hoping for him in melee.. really. goo dthat DDD, Wario, Diddy and metaknight get in... but hell! why Ridley no? it also dissapoints me since metroid it's still underrepresented! only one rep? since super metroid is a legend and metroid prime it's one masterpiece of game... hell...

also, the Famicom Wars without representation? since it's a series with 20 years of history and 12 games released in almost every nintendo console? popular until now both in japan and the rest of the world...

Which would dissapoint me more of this roster i think it's that ganondorf still seems to be a cap falcon clone.. i mean sure , Fox and Falco i can understand... Wolf i'm expecting him different... but GANONDORF!?
THAT LAZY WAS SAKURAI?!?!?! i really thought that ganondorf was a Cap falcon clone due to matters of time..., but now it seems that while creating Olimar and Pokemon Trainer, the developer team creativity simply dried out....

yep, Wolf is in the game, but it seems that it costed me Ridley, Mewtwo, and an original Ganondorf... and what dissapoints me more is that we are not seeing any smash brother until the next console.... ¬¬

also as someone said in this forums... that i'm dissapointed because I made some unreasoneable and "hyped" predcitions, i don't find nor unreasonable nor hyped to have been waiting for the only extreme popular character that doesn't made in, a veteran with unique moveset and gameplay and a new moveset for ganondorf, that's "Hyped"???

Edit.. at least ganondorf and Capitan falcon Final smashes differs, hope that is a good sign...

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

You'll all get over it, just like you did Melee's roster.

The only thing I don't like is that Ganondorf and Young Link weren't even fixed.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

Sorry, but you failed to make me feel any better.

Sakurai is an incompetent *******.
The roster is the most important aspect of the game right after the engine, and we already had the engine part down. Everyone speculated about characters, everyone hoped for characters, he made it seem like it's a fan's game and then he cracks and makes the worst decisions possible.

Nobody speculated about stickers, much less hoped for them, nobody wanted ATs and many people feel insulted by their presence rather than delighted. Nobody asked for demos. Yet this useless collection of crap seems to have gotten more effort put into it than the most important aspect that everyone hoped for.

I got the character I support and I cannot feel happy about it because his colors are drowned under the grayness of a gray Fox and a gray robot.


What does a game designer do, really? The designer is the one who makes all the design decisions, right? And Sakurai was the game designer. And nothing more.
He didn't program the game, he didn't make the models, he only made several HUNDRED people work on what he wanted them to work on, and at that, he failed.
I'm going to buy the game, but that ******* is not getting any credit from me.

You took each and every word out of my mouth. I'd sig that if it weren't so long... guess I can link to it at least.

 

[Drclaw411]

best post on smashboards ever.

and for the mods: Smash Bros 4 General Discussion and Smash Bros 4 character discussion. jk

 

[sffadsad]

The meaning of the post was get over the crap roster cuz Brawl is still gonna rox anyway, am I correct?


It's not as easy as telling people to get over it even if it is in a nice to read way. The problem is that most of these people have been hyped up to the point of Brawl will not only be a great game, but it will be TEH WINNAR! (If you catch my drift) Nintendo knew what they were doing with the release dates, the numerous hints, and all of the hype. They want to and WILL make tons of cash off this game. They best way to do that was to hype hype hype and to ride on the tail of Melee. Melee was great, and people believed that Brawl would be better, and it is. The problem is that everyone was led to believe it would be more than it IS. Yes content is nice, but what is really the meat of the Smash Bros sandwich? Its the smashing! People wanted to smash with their favs, and some are going to be unable to do that. That is the crushing blow to them, and that is what will take time for them to get over. You said it yourself with no Roy or Ridley, there is not much point for you to be here, to partake in the Smash community and really kind of lose yourself in the game. I just hope IF there is another Smash game they actually learn to hype it the right amount for its actual content.




What? You expected nice organized little paragraphs?

 

[Azureclipse]

Theres a single thing I have a problem with in this roster. 35 isn't a bad number. The character selections could have been better, but it isn't horrible. I mean, after the initial shock wore off, I'm starting to like the idea of ROB. But there are a few things that REALLY grind me, and they all revolve around one thing: clones.

I'll start with the first thing. Ness and Lucas. No, I don't blame them for giving them similar movesets. But they're still clones. I've seen Lucas in action, and his PK Fire is a lot different then Ness', and we still haven't seen what Ness' PK Flash can do now. But they're still clones. Clones that could have POSSIBLY been avoided. But...identical Final Smashes just crosses the line. Before we got this roster, Lucas was thought to have Starstorm because Claus could come in with PK love (sigh..). But no. Lucas AND Ness get Starstorm, and NOT their SIGNATURE ATTACKS, PK Rockin and PK Love. Theres just NO EXCUSE. Oh, and look at my sig, kthxbai.

The second point about clones is Starfox. I myself am not a fan of Starfox (although I do enjoy a few barrel rolls now and then), but I honestly have to admit, this is a bit unfair. Fox who was the original. Falco who's a Fox clone. Wolf who has incredible chances of being a Fox clone. TWO CLONES OF ONE CHARACTER. Just...no. I'd gladly accept Krystal, even though I have basically no idea who the hell she is, just for the sake of an original Starfox representative.

And the last thing, the thing that REALLY pisses me off: Wind Waker Link. For the time being, I hate him. No, Wind Waker isn't a bad game. I own it, and it's a great Zelda game. No, Wind Waker Link isn't a bad idea. He's a great character idea, and he's a completely different spin on good ol Link. But theres one tiny fact that makes me hate and spite him with every bit of my gamer soul: He could be a clone. Not a clone of Link. A clone of YOUNG LINK. YOUNG ******* LINK. A clone of a cut clone of a character. WW Link has POTENTIOL. He has the Skull Hammer. He has the Deku Leaf. He has the WIND WAKER. He has the ****ing GRAPPLING HOOK.

We don't have conformation of WW Link being a Y Link clone, so I'm willing to hold judgment until we get official word. But he's confirmed to have the Bow as his Neutral B special. This could mean nothing, but I'll wait to see. If he gets a unique moveset, I'll gladly accept him as new brawler. But if he's just a ****ty Young Link in fancy next-gen graphics, he's a complete waste of space. I'm sorry if this is offending any WW Link fans, but he should not be in Brawl if he's just going to be a poor excuse to hide Sakurai's laziness. No excuse.

As for non-clone aspects, I'm honestly upset because of all the series that didn't get more representative. Donkey Kong didn't get King K. Rool, and is left villianless, although I don't doubt the King to show up in the Emissary as a boss. MOTHER and Fire Emblem got the same treatment, with the lack of Claus (sigh x2) and the Black Knight, perfectly unique characters. Black Shadow could have inherited Ganonfork's (misspelling intended) SSBM moveset, and given the good Captain a fellow F-Zero representative. The most stunning is Ridley, the most famous Metroid boss, and one of the only other candidates for a playable Metroid spot, alongside Dark Samus. Ridley has become a boss, and Dark Samus is nowhere to be seen.

But the worst are the series that got NO representatives. Ray 01 failed to bring the Custom Robo banner to Brawl. Issac and his Golden Sun franchise were left out. Animal Crossing, despite getting an icon, stage, ATs and items, didn't get a playable Crosser. Megaman didn't even get the fax. Even Sukapon and Takamaru were left out, leaving Lucas with the sole Japanese-Only character slot*.

All in all, the disappointment comes not from the actual roster, but from the characters who DIDN'T make it. All of these characters were excluded from the biggest game of the Wii. R.I.P. Ridley, Claus, K Rool, Black Shadow, Issac, Geno, Sukapon, Black Knight, Dark Samus, Animal Crosser, Ray 01, Sukapon, Takamaru, and every other character who didn't make it into Brawl.

*correct me if I missed any other japanese-only characters

 

[Azureclipse]

ugh double post....stupid lag

 

[ChronoBound]

I take back some of my words in my post. I myself was a big supporter of Wind Waker Link over Midna for two reasons. One was that I enjoyed Wind Waker more than Twilight Princess, and also felt he was more important to the Zelda series than Midna due to starrring in one more game than her. I also saw the amazing amount of moveset potential he had that could set him apart from Young Link. The Deku Leaf, Skull Hammer, Tingle Tuner, and Grappling Hook were all equipment that Wind Waker Link could use that would make him unique. The news that he is nothing more than Young Link with a different style angers me. I also heard that Ganondorf may also still be a Captain Falcon clone. This also increases the chances that Falco is a Fox clone and that Ness is a Lucas clone. Sakurai should not have cut Mewtwo and Roy had he decided to bring back clones. Hell, I think he should have gone as far to bring both Doc and Pichu back. Really, there was no point in cutting characters.

 

[bballstar23]

You read my mind, save for the Roy tidbit.

 

[Zevox]

I take back some of my words in my post. I myself was a big supporter of Wind Waker Link over Midna for two reasons. One was that I enjoyed Wind Waker more than Twilight Princess, and also felt he was more important to the Zelda series than Midna due to starrring in one more game than her. I also saw the amazing amount of moveset potential he had that could set him apart from Young Link. The Deku Leaf, Skull Hammer, Tingle Tuner, and Grappling Hook were all equipment that Wind Waker Link could use that would make him unique. The news that he is nothing more than Young Link with a different style angers me. I also heard that Ganondorf may also still be a Captain Falcon clone. This also increases the chances that Falco is a Fox clone and that Ness is a Lucas clone. Sakurai should not have cut Mewtwo and Roy had he decided to bring back clones. Hell, I think he should have gone as far to bring both Doc and Pichu back. Really, there was no point in cutting characters.

Yeah, the news on the clone front is almost entirely bad. Toon Link is a definite complete clone, and Ganondorf's standard moves remain the same. There is some hope for Ganondorf's B-moves though - here (end of the video) it seems his up-B has become an upward hover that ends in a spinning uppercut. If his other specials have changed too, he'll be alright I think.

Falco though isn't so lucky - this video confirms both his final smash and the Fire Bird special, and his standard moves are likewise still cloned. I see little hope for his other specials.

Based on this video, it seems Ness is completely unchanged as well. However, based on this video (1:37), this includes PK Flash instead of PK Freeze, which is something. Also this video seems to confirm that Sakurai was telling the truth about Lucas' standard moves being fairly different from Ness', so it seems you could call them more so Luigified clones than pure clones (in fact, given it seems only 3 of their specials and their bat smash attacks are similar, I'd hesitate to even call them that).

And speaking of Luigi, he also seems unchanged, though the only special move seen is the super jump punch, so theres still hope for the Poltergust.

I'm mostly now hoping Ganondorf has entirely new special moves (magic-based attacks would be wonderful to see), and that Wolf doesn't turn out to be just Fox clone #2.

Zevox

 

[ChronoBound]

Yeah, the news on the clone front is almost entirely bad. Toon Link is a definite complete clone, and Ganondorf's standard moves remain the same. There is some hope for Ganondorf's B-moves though - here (end of the video) it seems his up-B has become an upward hover that ends in a spinning uppercut. If his other specials have changed too, he'll be alright I think.

Falco though isn't so lucky - this video confirms both his final smash and the Fire Bird special, and his standard moves are likewise still cloned. I see little hope for his other specials.

Based on this video, it seems Ness is completely unchanged as well. However, based on this video (1:37), this includes PK Flash instead of PK Freeze, which is something. Also this video seems to confirm that Sakurai was telling the truth about Lucas' standard moves being fairly different from Ness', so it seems you could call them more so Luigified clones than pure clones (in fact, given it seems only 3 of their specials and their bat smash attacks are similar, I'd hesitate to even call them that).

And speaking of Luigi, he also seems unchanged, though the only special move seen is the super jump punch, so theres still hope for the Poltergust.

I'm mostly now hoping Ganondorf has entirely new special moves (magic-based attacks would be wonderful to see), and that Wolf doesn't turn out to be just Fox clone #2.

Zevox

There is no reason they should not have brought back Roy considering that they are bring back clones, and how an original character such as Mewtwo gets cut. Hell, I think Dr. Mario and Pichu should have been brought back. That would bring us to a 39 character roster, leaving one random icon for the 40th spot. What are your thoughts Zevox on the return of clones? I am very curious as to why nobody has unlocked Wolf yet though.

 

[MechanizedDeviousFox]

Now see, the inclusion of Kyrstal was what was going to sell this game to me. I had waited for this game for such a long time, since before the Dojo came online, hoping that she would be in. It made perfect sense for her to be in. Popular, a female, a Star Fox represenative, original moveset, and did I mention popular? It's not that ROB or any of the others have me pissed, it's they fact he wanted WOLF in over her. Was wolf even requested? And if he was, was he that much popular to over-come Krystal?

Anyway, getting over the QQ, no I probably won't be buying this game... I have no Wii, and I'm already on a severe budget. I'm not going to buy this game now. I'll play it, for sure, at a friend's house or something... but it does NOT give me any reason to buy it... why waste money on a console for one game that doesn't even satisfy you? Ah, oh well, maybe in five to eight years, she might be on the next Nintendo console... lawl.

 

[Zevox]

There is no reason they should not have brought back Roy considering that they are bring back clones, and how an original character such as Mewtwo gets cut. Hell, I think Dr. Mario and Pichu should have been brought back. That would bring us to a 39 character roster, leaving one random icon for the 40th spot. What are your thoughts Zevox on the return of clones? I am very curious as to why nobody has unlocked Wolf yet though.

I'm horribly disappointed, of course - I can't conceive of why Sakurai and the other developers could possibly have thought this was a good idea. Especially with Ganondorf, who isn't even close to being related to the character he was cloned from. Clones were the absolute least popular element in Melee, so I've been thinking this whole time there would be no way they would bring them back. To discover I was wrong is a real blow to my respect for Sakurai and company.

I do agree with you that, if they absolutely had to bring clones back, Roy's return would have been called for (or at least his replacement with another clone, such as Eliwood or Sigurd). I disagree on Doc and Pichu though, since I see any alternate version of an existing character, clone or otherwise, as a waste (hence why I've been opposed to Toon Link this whole time, and why Zero Suit Samus was my least favorite addition to the roster before he came to light).

I agree on Mewtwo as well, there was no reason for him to be cut. Though interestingly, it seems Lucario's neutral B move works similarly to the way his did (its Aura Sphere, I think - its in the movie I linked above that contains what I think is PK flash from Ness), albeit that it moves faster, is larger, and travels in a straight line; which makes me wonder about just how similar they are. If they made Lucario a clone or even just a Luigified clone of Mewtwo.... no, I'm not going to contemplate that one any further until we know more. Hopefully Aura Sphere/Shadow Ball is the only similarity.

On Wolf, I imagine either hes very hard to unlock, or the time zone difference is to blame (its been night over there for most of the day we've been looking for spoilers, so I imagine our leaker got some shut-eye rather than keep playing until he got Wolf).

Zevox

 

[Elysium]

I am very curious as to why nobody has unlocked Wolf yet though.

Hope for Krystal?

Seriously Chrono, you have the right mindset. Melee's roster wasn't great, but we made do with it anyway. Brawl's roster is the same way, and we'll make do with it too.

I think the reason that people are responding more to their favorite character not getting in is because of the wait from Melee to Brawl. I think some feel that over 6 years was enough for Ridley/Krystal/Geno etc...

Even if your character didn't get in, most of us can go back to characters we used in Melee (Go Samus!!!!).

I personally haven't given up hope (mainly for Krystal) but I wont go around saying I wont buy the game or something pathetic like that. Smash is Smash, regardless of the roster.

 

[Chaosblade77]

I do agree with you that, if they absolutely had to bring clones back, Roy's return would have been called for (or at least his replacement with another clone, such as Eliwood or Sigurd). I disagree on Doc and Pichu though, since I see any alternate version of an existing character, clone or otherwise, as a waste (hence why I've been opposed to Toon Link this whole time, and why Zero Suit Samus was my least favorite addition to the roster before he came to light).

I still believe (until proven otherwise) there is a chance that Marth is actually Roy's replacement. Marth needed nerfed, and Roy's playstyle was far more popular than Marth's to the abundance of casual players. Give Marth Roy's playstyle and that basically covers all worlds (more important, popular character in the FE franchise, nerf Marth, keep the more popular playstyle)...

...except we Melee Marth players that would just be out of luck. I have yet to see the video personally, but I have heard there is video evidence Marth is slower than he was in Melee, this might back up my theory, but I hope it turns out to be wrong.

It seems that most of the characters from Melee have gotten boosts in areas though and are generally "better" than they were. So it's possible that Sakurai just took the best of Marth and Roy and found a way to combine them.

I agree on Mewtwo as well, there was no reason for him to be cut. Though interestingly, it seems Lucario's neutral B move works similarly to the way his did (its Aura Sphere, I think - its in the movie I linked above that contains what I think is PK flash from Ness), albeit that it moves faster, is larger, and travels in a straight line; which makes me wonder about just how similar they are. If they made Lucario a clone or even just a Luigified clone of Mewtwo.... no, I'm not going to contemplate that one any further until we know more. Hopefully Aura Sphere/Shadow Ball is the only similarity.

I know you didn't want to take that any further, but have any movesets been "lost" in the transition from Melee to Brawl? I can't think of any off the top of my head, and if all except Mewtwo have been seen in Brawl... well, that would be pretty bad. It's the only moveset that comes to mind that I would really want to see go.

 

[Darkraid]

Chrono, is wolf a clone? I've seen it somewhere that wolf's FS is also a landmaster.

 

[SuperLink9]

I don't think Wolf has been revealed yet...

Roy, Mewtwo, Pichu and Doctor Mario should ALL return, because Sakurai is too incompetant to fix an accidental clone like Ganondorf. I seriously doubt it was to do with game constrictions.

WHY aren't those 4 in it?! There is NO REASON.

 

[Chaosblade77]

There is supposedly that Wolf pic but some people are claiming photoshop on it. (the classic mode, not the landmaster).

There is really no Wolf info yet at all though other than that image, I think people are waiting for the roster pic before they take it as confirmed.

 

[Erimir]

After the Melee roster was revealed, I kept hope that Ridley would be a playable character in the next Smash Bros. Ridley’s popularity got a huge boost between those years thanks to the massive resurrection that the Metroid series got, and also due to a new generation of gamers being able to see the awesome that was Ridley.

I would just point out that the resurrection that Metroid got was not just in North America with Prime - Metroid Fusion and Metroid Zero Mission also came out after SSB64 and did well in Japan too.

We are getting [...] an Adventure Mode that could stand alone as its own game (though I have a really strong feeling that the SSE is the reason why we ended up with a 35-character roster and Ridley and Mewtwo not being playable).

I strongly suspect that to be true as well. After all, so many people argued against Ridley because they wanted him to be a very large and imposing boss.

That's what we got. I'm guessing that Sakurai was too focused on trying to include every character in the SSE - if (regular) Ridley in SSE was simply a larger version of the playable character, then it would be complicated to explain that in the story, and to explain him being playable in the SSE, since Ridley, more so than any of the villains in the 35 roster, seems like he would never cooperate with the good guys.

But if Sakurai had just decided to forgo making every character playable in the SSE... then he could have made Ridley a boss in the SSE (larger than regular Ridley, just like you fight giant versions of other characters in 1P mode) and a playable character who is not playable during the SSE, or at least, not until you replay stages.

Spoiler

Cuz as far as the leaks go, it seems that everyone except Jigglypuff and Wolf has been confirmed to have a role in the SSE. I know other characters have been confirmed to be unlockable without going through the SSE, but I'm assuming that any character playable as part of the SSE can be unlocked through the SSE.

Which is strange, considering Sakurai said that only something like 65% of the characters would be unlockable through the SSE

 

[Layupfreak]

I read everything, nice!!

 

[Zevox]

Aw ****, Wolf's a clone.

http://zip.4chan.org/v/src/1201696688843.jpg

Right down to the **** Landmaster (seriously, couldn't they at least have given him a vehicle he actually uses, like the Wolfen?!)

Fingers crossed for Ganondorf's special moves to be all new, but I'm not betting on it anymore. This is just too much disappointment in that area, even for someone who has managed to be content with the roster otherwise.

Zevox

 

[Erimir]

Falco though isn't so lucky - this video confirms both his final smash and the Fire Bird special, and his standard moves are likewise still cloned. I see little hope for his other specials.

Falco's reflector (or maybe it's not his reflector) is significantly different. It looks like he throws it forward, and then it comes back to him.

 

[hotgarbage]

Ah, good read as always ChronoBound.

 

[PXG]

Speaking from the heart....wow...Well said. I am still pumped for this game. I can't wait! :D

 

[ChronoBound]

Hmmm, another issue I have with Brawl's roster is the number of clones (5). Ganondorf, Ness, Toon Link, Falco, and Wolf are all clones (or maybe some of them have some slight Luigification). If this is really the case there was no excuse for Sakurai to cut Mewtwo and Roy, and maybe any characters at all.

Most of Brawl's stages also don't seem to capture the kind of craziness that Melee's had (though I am glad that they brought back Big Blue). Nevertheless, I think Stage Editor might make up for this. I also don't think it was a good idea only to make only five Target Test levels in the game. I liked it how each Target Test level was tailored to each character's own unique moves in the previous two Smash Bros. Also, there are supposedly only 40 Event Matches in Brawl.

However, I will play Brawl before passing any judgement on it. The gameplay is what is most important about a game. I think it will take about a year before we have any accurate gauge as to how much Brawl was an improvement or setback compared to Melee. When Twilight Princess came out, everyone hailed it as being perfect and attacked anyone who dared say it had flaws. Now everyone realizes the flaws that were in the games (or at least the people who are not total fanboys). I think it will also be the case with Brawl when it comes out. As a matter of fact, when I made a topic about how I would alter Brawl's roster while still staying within 35 characters, somebody told me to go die in a fire since I disagreed with several of the characters on the Brawl roster. Really, the fanboys are just as bad as the crybabies.

 

[Chepe]

Oh, dont leave Chrono, youre one of the best posters around here for sure, loved your Probable Characters analysis thread of course. You even got me back to supporting Roy! I will definitely be vouching for him next time around...

I enjoyed that read too, you will be going down in Brawl leak history for sure.

 

[ChronoBound]

Yeah, I am thinking about asking one of the mods to move the Roy for Brawl topic and placing it on the Roy Melee Board. Though I don't want to spoil anyone there, so this will have to be done after Brawl's North American release (sorry Europe). From there, we can discuss what can be done to reclaim Roy's spot on the roster for Smash 4. I have several ideas, however, they are dependent on several factors that may be out of my control. Hoewever, I will do whay I can.