Choosing Your Starter: IKE take TWO

[Steeler]

yeah. ivysaur is definitely more effective in this matchup if you just focus on safe damage instead of trying too hard to get the KO.

also apparently you can just hold up/down and you can easily break out of dk's fthrow grab

and of course you can just tech it normally

 

[PkTrainerCris]

I think ivysaur may be the best starter, play safe, and then swirch to zard to KO and live as long as you can is an interesting plan, but charizard starter us pretty cool too.... he may not KO too well when fatigued, but his gimping game remains almost untouched... i dont see a lot of reasons to start as squirtle .. maybe the only one is that squirtle is better when both are at low percent.. but that scenario can happen anyway if you dont start as him...

 

[Ryusuta]

we should prioritize which ones are the best if your are flexible/good enough to use all three on dk though.

That is the intent of this thread. Naturally, there will be some predisposition based on personal tastes, but we're trying to be as objective as possible, overall.

 

[Bomber7]

yea, I'm pretty understanding when it comes to all 3. I honestly like starting with squirtle, he's fast and agile and he's my best so imo I wouldnt mind starting him against DK. Ivy, from her performance, shows me that heavyweights like DK, she can handle, so starting with her for whatever strategy would be fine. Chrizard is a powerhouse brawler so theres definitely no harm in starting with Charizard.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

...Wow.

Okay.

So, I see this is your first time ever playing as Charizard.

Lol, I was talking about Rocksmash in the pokemon game, silly. Hahaha. =P

 

[Bomber7]

yeah it is kinda bad. Though in Platinum, I've done something a little cliche. this is my party.

Empoleon
Electrode(YES!)
Magby(in training, soon to be magmortar)

Squirtle O->:
>Watergun >Waterfall
>Hydro Pump >Surf

Ivysaur O+ :
>Double edge(dash A) >vine whip
>solar beam >razor leaf

Charizard O-> :
> Rock smash >flamethrower
>fly >fire blast

I kid you not. and Squirtle can take out 3 of birtha's pokemon. lol ^^'

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

I say Ivysaur.
Spacing and racking up the damage is really great. Not to meantion that once he is at a acceptable %, you can Switch to Charizard and procced to kill and **** the second stock.

 

[Bomber7]

I think squirtle is a good choice, he is fast, his tilts are amazing. so he can just bounce off the walls and rack some damage and then leave Ivy for the kill then switch to charz

 

[Ademo]

I say Ivysaur.
Spacing and racking up the damage is really great. Not to meantion that once he is at a acceptable %, you can Switch to Charizard and procced to kill and **** the second stock.

I agree.

And since DK has more range than Squirtle I don't give him much playtime.

 

[Wii4Mii 99]

Isn't Charizard Bair bait though?
Although it is pretty easy to spike DK's Up-B. He's a big target, so a well placed Rock Smash can rack up damage at low percentages.

And also, grab-release tricksies don't work on DK.

 

[Bomber7]

yall have to remember that all 3 can space quite well. Squirtle has water gun, which I found works quite well in most situations. Ivy has razor leaf and good tilts, charizard with his flamethrower and tilts as well and Rock smash has a little reach as well. so its not so much of a matter of spacing. and I have confidense that a good squirtle player could get around DK's longer reach. I play my friend who plays sheik and he's always like "WTF? how does squirtle's short legs over come sheiks long legs" well even though we attack at the same time, squirtle is just faster and better in the air, so a combo of short hops and aerials are great for racking up damage with DK, which is primarily what squirtle would be used for in any basic strategy, then you can switch to ivy and do whatever you want next.

 

[Retro Gaming]

I would definitely consider Ivysaur to be the optimal starter in this match-up. Starting Squirtle is super risky and if you mess up you'll be pretty much forced to get a kill with Ivysaur on DK, which I think is difficult because DK is just as capable as playing a safe damage game until its time to pull out a kill move. His advantage is that he kills with pretty much every move at much lower percentages.

 

[Bomber7]

hmmm, you put up a good point. Racking damage up with ivy and then going to charizard would be a good strategy. lol. this discussion is a little harder than I expected, because when you choose your starter pokemon you want someone you can easily move around with and rack damage up quickly with. Well for all of us it is a different pokemon. then, depending on your strategy, want to either keep that pokemon out for get as many stocks as possible until they die and let the other 2 take out the last stock, or you can start out racking up damage quickly then switching to a pokemon who can kill better than the other and take things from there.

My first basic strategy: Use squirtle to rack up damage quickly then throw opponent away at appropriate %, switch to Ivy, use Ivy to kill opponent and then switch to Charizard. With charizard, fight to the death. Then once he dies, the process starts all over again. If you ask me, it's not a half bad one. however it would take alot of concentration and good judgment and speed to pull it off effectively, cuz there is always a possibility things could go wrong or you may mess up or something. Though I find this strategy basic and pretty effective.

 

[T-block]

Ivy is my choice here, as long as you watch out for that early gimp. DK's bair is too good. Other than that, you've got Razor Leaf and good spacing moves. And Bullet Seed of course.

 

[typh]

this is one of the only matchups i will continue to ivystart as

 

[Bomber7]

I'll keep the DK discussion open for one more day. I'll be at a tournament so tomorrow, I'll change the discussion to our next character.

 

[Vermy]

May I suggest Snake or Ice Climbers for the next discussion?

I seem to have problems against those 2 in particular. Thanks to this thread, I don't have a problem vs Diddy now =D

 

[Bomber7]

Falco Discussion Starts Here

Well I'd like to go in alphabetical order. Most of these discussions are pretty short, only lasting like a day or two. I figure in a couple of weeks we will finish.

Edit: Shall we begin?

 

[Ryusuta]

Of all the ones listed so far, this is te one that is most apt to change. In my experience, Falco is the single worst match-up for Pokemon Trainer in the entire roster. The main problem being that he can CG-to-spike all three Pokemon. Like Meta Knight this is listed as all three not because all three of them are "good" choices to start with, but because they're both about equally bad.

Because of Ivysaur's weakness to early gimps and relative inability to space Falco, though, it's very likely I'll end up dropping him as a recommended starter. Charizard is also somewhat on the bubble, as well. As of now, however...

If he's played very carefully, Squirtle is the one least likely to get CGed out of the gate by Falco. His aerial speed, hydroplaning skills, and relatively safe pokes give him some buffer zone. In addition, his up tilt lock is godly against a low-percent Falco (as Reflex first demonstrated). However, if you're irresponsible and/or impatient, you're going to get shield-grabbed, CGed, and spiked. DON'T PUSH FALCO, and be very cautious against him. Because of Squirtle's diminutive size, Falco's SHDL is really not a huge concern, but be wary of it just the same.

Ivysaur brings to the table, defensively speaking, what he always does. A back air wall to space, and the threat of neutral airs and Bullet Seeds when the pressure's on. Unfortunately, SHDL kills Razor Leaf unless Falco's cornered, and Ivysaur makes a pretty fair target for a CG; even worse for the spike. The upshot is that if Falco messes up his timing, he'll eat a full Bullet Seed to the face, since it's insanely difficult to DI the first hit when you're focusing on the chain grab. However, I wouldn't count on this happening at an expert level, because realistically, a good Falco isn't going to mess up his timing once he catches you.

Charizard is pretty good against Falco when he's got the pressure on. Unfortunately, when Falco's got the momentum, it's insanely difficult to get it back. In addition, his down B is the perfect answer to Flamethrower. The upshot is that it can be baited. So if you can get Falco to incorrectly anticipate your moves, you can do a good job keeping control of the early part of this match-up.

 

[Bomber7]

I like the idea of Squirtle being the best choice to start, then Charizard. Ivy yes, will get CG'd then spiked and a good falco will grab the ledge after that so theres no recovery. I think it would be best to drop. Ivy. There isnt much we can do. we can out camp him, we will get laser ***** and we'd have to fight close range. If we get careless then we will be CG'd to death.

When it comes to Charizard, he's a little on the fair side when it comes to starting, he can take some punishment, however when it would come to the CG to spike, I dont think Charz would have a fun time recovering even if he did keep his last jump or 2. Also when it would come to flamethrower, we cant use it for long or have it reflected. so short bursts of flame might be effective. however like you said when Falco gets his momentum, it will be really hard to land a blow.

It's match ups like these that I'm glad I made this thread. We know falco is one of the worst match ups for Pt so it's best to know who to start with to at least put up a good fight and not waste a precious stock

 

[Megapants]

I agree, Squirtle is probably your best option. More mobility, smaller target, less easily gimped (not to say that it's hard to gimp Squirtle), etc. And you can even gimp Falco's side-B recovery with a well timed water gun if you get him offstage.

I don't really know this match-up so this is all purely from speculation and from Reflex vs. Kismet videos. : P

 

[Bomber7]

Well I think we can all agree to throw Ivy out the window as a starter. Squirtle is definitely one, however it's all the matter of settling, whether or not we should keep Charizard as a possible starter.

 

[Steeler]

imo it's whoever you feel more comfortable in their ability to not die from a cg spike, whether because they are heavy and can recover (charizard) or do a good job of avoiding grabs (squirtle)

get cg spiked and it's a tough struggle to catch up

also orion reflector is actually not that great against flamethrower because the reflected parts will just clash with the flames that are still coming out of charizard's mouth. you'll only get hit if you are really close to him or something.

 

[Bomber7]

so is it basically since PT is going to get owned any way, just go with who is your best? That would make since. Imo if you are good with a character and know them pretty well, your mobility and coordination is better with them as compared to an unfamiliar character.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Flamethower ***** Falco's Recovery.

 

[Kage Me]

Ivy yes, will get CG'd then spiked and a good falco will grab the ledge after that so theres no recovery.

Can't you Meteor Cancel with Vine Whip and beat him to the ledge? I've never used PT against Falco, but it seems like a possibility...

 

[Bomber7]

I don't think so. There have been times where I try to instant tether from off the stage to beat my opponent but it fails or I try to instant tether and they ledge hug. Those two factors, since they beat Ivy's vine whip, lead me to believe that its not possible

 

[Toby.]

I've tethered before falco could grab the edge. Its pretty reliable, since if they are chain grabbing->spike from 0%, you aren't sent that far by the spike anyway. Come to think of it I dont think I've ever been gimped by the spike with ivysaur

Edit: and if you really want to avoid that grab, you could always camp platforms. Briefly drop down to do double jumped rising aerials back onto the platforms, and you are pretty safe from falco. Basically do that until he's put enough damage on you to be out of chain grabbing %, then start playing as normal.

I believe AD used to start with Charizard so as to avoid the spike, then switch to squirtle once he got to about 50%. At such low percents it would be difficult to switch without getting smashed, but it definitely seems like the ideal way to do it if you get the chance.

 

[CHOMPY]

Charizard is an excellent Pokemon to start off with because at lower percentage, you can uthrow Falco and use a couple Uairs since Falco is one of those fast fallers. Charizard doesnt get gimped as easily as you guys think just because hes a big target. Remember he has 3 jumps and a Up B.

Whenever Falco tries to camp by shooting lasers, just go after him and punish him with a shield grab. So you can avoid getting hit by those annoying lasers.

There was a video somewhere where you get chain grabbed from Falco at Final Destination and somehow you were able to DI that. Wish I could find it but it works wonders for Ivysaur since Ivysaur is so easy to gimp.

Squirtle you have to patient with but he can get the job done by racking up damage from a simple Utilt. I believe that Squirtles Dair move outprioritize Falcos Side B but im not positive.

 

[Steeler]

squirtle dair outprioritizes illusion but i'm pretty sure you have to be hitting with the tail

i've only died to the cg spike with squirtle. charizard is too heavy + two jumps and super armor on fly if they try to spike you twice. ivy can meteor cancel tether.

regardless, i still think ivysaur is absolutely horrible in this matchup and you should start with one of the other two. squirtle is risky because of the spike (which will kill you if they do it correctly) but there is a good payoff if you can set up a combo.

start as your best between squirtle and charizard.

 

[Toby.]

CHOMPY, remember that you cant punish lasers with a grab unless they are silly enough to just stand there shooting. Most falcos will be using short hopped double lasers, which have 0 lag. Furthermore, if charizard is dashing at falco the most obvious thing you could be going for is a grab anyway, because charizard has very few viable options out of a dash.

Falcos laser camping cannot simply be solved by running shields and dash grabbing, unfortunately

 

[CHOMPY]

ah you make a good point there Tcranter. Well what about using Charizards back air as a suprise tactic, They think that your going to grab them but really you can just use the back air so you wouldnt have to be so close.

Ivysaur is the absolute worst against Falco so you may as well use him as one of those Pokemon you sacrifice when Squirtles percentage gets really high. Or just stay on the platforms and Falco will have to come get you eventually. Just so you wont get cg'bed all the way across the stage for cheap KO's

 

[Ryusuta]

Yeah, from the looks of things, it's a toss-up between whether it's changed to starting Squirtle only, or starting Squirtle/Charizard.

also orion reflector is actually not that great against flamethrower because the reflected parts will just clash with the flames that are still coming out of charizard's mouth. you'll only get hit if you are really close to him or something.

It outranges Flamethrower, which deteriorates with time. Falco can cut through the fire and trip Charizard with his Reflector.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

I dont think falcos reflector outranges full lenght flamethrower, and its not that a big deal if it outranges a deteriorated flamethower, because if you didnt hit falco at the begining of the flames you dont want to just sit there thowing flames.... and flamethower ***** falco offstage... so i call it a good deal....
Anyway, i think squirtle is better for starter, he can do the utilt ****, wins in the air, and he doesnt have too much trouble gimping falco (that makes up for the lack of killing power).. and you can sacrifice ivy at high percents.... the problem is that if your squirtle gets killed when falco is at low percent you are stuck with an ivy vulnerable to chaingrab to spike on a bad matchup that cant make easily the opening to switch.

 

[Bomber7]

In the matter of charizard, is he really capable of even fighting off falco once he gains momentum? theres alot of things we have to take into consideration, like his laser canceling out jumps and attacks. not to mention on the right stage like FD, he can out camp Charz and if we try to jump then it get canceled with a SHDL. I know eventually Charz can break through though can he really take falco on at mid-close range w/o getting ***** or taken off the stage and ***** there?

 

[Retro Gaming]

I remember one game I started as Charizard and did not aproach the Falco at all. He just sat around where he spawned and just kept sniping me with his lasers, which I did not try to avoid. After I hit ~40% I started playing. It kind of worked? I got the first kill.

I don't really know what that has to do with Falco starter.

I've considered every Pokemon at one point. I find living the spike is easiest with Ivysaur, for some reason. You just need to play near the ledge until after you're past CG percentages.

On the other hand, Charizard pretty much is the only one I feel legitametly comfortable with in this match-up.

I kind of like the Squirtle start, except that he dies so early. That's not even from the spike, that's just in general. Plus he's outranged.

I really hate Falco.

 

[Bomber7]

well I really am trying to look at this from all points, but so far I'm being sent around in circles. This match up is just plain bad for PT so in retrospect, why should it matter who we play as because move wise they all have a capability to do something in some way against Falco, however the CG issue is basically what is determining who will or wont start, which has led to the toss up either just squirtle or squirtle + charizard.

Imo, you can at least do something with all 3, Ivy can at least approach with razor leafs, or try to, at least that would break up his laser fire. once in range, you just have to keep Falco in with whatever you think is best depending on how the person plays. Charizard I know takes a bit of work to approach but since he can take some punishment he will be good once he gets in range of Falco, as for squirtle, he's tiny , fast a agile so making the first stock count in what ever way you can put it will be easy.

also, referring to the CG, if you play your spacing right and taking your damage right you most of the time will not get the CG to spike combo, I've played a few good falco players and even though they will always go for the CG, since I like to move around alot, especially as squirtle, they really cant do that so at most I'll get grabbed twice and then they will d-smash me but I will still be on stage because of my %. so it's not like the falco will be god and the moment you take a step on that field you will find yourself CG to spike.

Thats really all I can say for now.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Squirtle doesn't get 0-to-deathed by the spike if you properly Meteor Cancel the spike.

Just jumped in to say that. I'll probably talk more about it in general later.

 

[CO18]

I personally think squirtle is Falco's 2nd worst matchup behind IC's lol.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I learned on Saturday that if you stay in a crouch until you want to do something, Falco can't do anything to Squirtle safely.