Charizard Tactical Discussion

[Canvasofgrey]

*Shrug* Does that matter?

Really, Rock Smash's Knockback applies only to the Headbutt. If you don't get hit by the head butt, you don't get knockback. That's the general key into scoring the 45% Rock smash because you can't hit the enemy with the headbutt else they don't get hit by all the rock shards.

 

[Kinzer]

Kind of does to me, just so I know who to credit.

Nothing more though.

 

[Eljin]

yo charz head go all thru that sonic body... its in slow mo, u gotta see that it should have more knock back than it did. I just think it was that move sonic did to kill his momentum thats all cuz thats a gd clean rock smash that should have had knockback ITS ALL IN SLO MO JUST LOOK AT IT.

 

[Steeler]

did you release your spin charge before you were hit, kinzer? that may have something to do with it.

 

[CoonTail]

One more question... how do you people already know this before I came in here, was there another video/person who got everybody else aware of it before I did?

We all know this already because just playing charizard alot of odd things happen with rocksmash and all of its weird properties. It can become a counter attack if the rock is still being pulled up in the animation phase and the opponents attack strikes the rock before Zard does, along with zard NOT getting hit. If zard is struck during the pull up animation it will cancel the rock smash resulting in the rock being dropped and having no hitbox. The "counter" is the most oddly noted fact about rocksmash. There are quite a few other properties as far as knowing the hitboxes, the shards only deal damage no knockback, the area between zards's head and the rock has notable properties that at the time i cant remember but someone should, and lastly the outside edge of the rock deals a high high content of knockback. In short everything to know about rock smash is the contact point between the opponent is the determining factor in what hitboxes will strike. Opp strikes rock not you results in negated attack no max damage, low knockback. Opp hits outer edge results in high knockback not full damage. Opp approaches too slow and is only struck by shard hitboxes results in no knockback and moderate damage. Opp hit between zard and rock results in max damage and high knockback.

did you release your spin charge before you were hit, kinzer? that may have something to do with it.

Yea kinzer, that makes a big difference because if you released the attack you could have caused whats known as "rocksmash counter" which causes less damage and WAY less knockback. If you attacked you would have cancelled shards of the rock resulting in less than the max 45% it can deal, and since you caused the counter the knockback hitboxes get cancelled, thus a counter. So in short if you released the attack and attacked the rock it would have caused a counter and resulted in the 30% you recieved along with the minor knockback that landed you back on the level. Overall tho it really DIDNT look like a counter at all it looked like he hit you with the outer edge and you did SDI to more or less ignore the big knockback hitbox and just get mainly get struck by the only damaging shard hitboxes.

 

[Charizard92]

Look, Rock smash has weird properties. It can be a lot of things, just not something to spam. It is, however, something that should get it's own internet meme by now.

 

[gantrain05]

Look, Rock smash has weird properties. It can be a lot of things, just not something to spam. It is, however, something that should get it's own internet meme by now.

huh? i spam it all the time. its the only way to play charizard

 

[Eljin]

^ this right here

now you guys know why i'm his cheerleaders

XD 2 gd steeler

 

[Miles.]

lolz at all the talk about that rocksmash.

 

[Ulevo]

huh? i spam it all the time. its the only way to play charizard

Or you could. You know. Actually be good at playing Charizard and not spam Rock Smash.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Rock Smash is not particularly spammable except against a few characters, none of which are very good.

I've found that unless you're going for the kill, nine times out of ten, Flamethrower is a better choice.

Neutral-B is spammable, certainly. Forward-B only hits in front of you, lags after the attack, and doesn't push opponents back on shield.

You can use them in tandem, for sure. Rock Smash -is- a good move. It's just not something you want to rely on that often.

In Doubles, though, you can spam it and yell, "ROCK SMASHHHHH, FUUUUUUUUUUCK, WHY WOULD YOU USE ANY OTHER MOOOOOVE?!" <3

Well, you can. It might not be as effective as generally-smart play, but it'll work better than it would in Singles, especially if you have a partner that's good at disrupting...then again, just about any good/powerful move can be used more efficiently when spammed in Teams.

 

[Ulevo]

I tend to use Rock Smash out of tech chases or predictions, or when I see that my opponents shield is worn down. Then I'll chase them with it until I break their shield or get a combo off. I'll also space Rock Smash in the air if I feel it is safe to do so.

Reflex is right though, Flamethrower is the safer move of choice, and does very good damage. It's also not wasting the potential you have to KO opponents with Rock Smash.

On another note, Reflex's sig is golden.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Depending on the opponent, Rock Smash can make for a good "panic button", as the rock shards can disrupt, or at least reliably trade hits at some points. Charizard wishes that he had a universally-fast aerial, so sometimes sticking the rock out and hoping for the best really is the most logical choice.

One good thing about Rock Smash that Flamethrower cannot boast is that you can still change your movement in mid-air while using it, so the unpredictability helps you stay safe. Moving backwards for defense and anticipating various dodges work well because of this.

Still, if you're at high percentage and the opponent is not in killing range, I seriously must recommend Flamethrower for its wonderful range rather than putting yourself unnecessarily close.

 

[Steeler]

flamethrower shield eat -> rock smash **** low shield imo

 

[Syrus_Draco]

huh? i spam it all the time. its the only way to play charizard

Sounds like my H E R O !

 

[Charizard92]

Sounds like my H E R O !

Find a new one.

Anyway, On all aspects of a move that make it spammable, Rock smash fails, on practically all accounts. it doesn't have a ton of range, it executes slowly, and it leaves you vulnerable in multiple Directions. Really, want to get PT higher up on the tier list so people stop badmouthing him, start with stopping the Rock smash spam.

 

[gantrain05]

Find a new one.

Anyway, On all aspects of a move that make it spammable, Rock smash fails, on practically all accounts. it doesn't have a ton of range, it executes slowly, and it leaves you vulnerable in multiple Directions. Really, want to get PT higher up on the tier list so people stop badmouthing him, start with stopping the Rock smash spam.

take a joke? wow lol.

 

[Syrus_Draco]

Find a new one.

Fine let's make you my H-E-R-O-!

Really, want to get PT higher up on the tier list so people stop badmouthing him, start with stopping the Rock smash spam.

Why would I badmouth a character I main?

PT isn't going up in the tier list as much as we all would love to wet our pants over it. The highest he could probably achieve is Mid-Tier and that's pushing a boulder up a mountain. So if you wanna get that boulder up there, you need to give it a good ROCK SMASH!

 

[Steeler]

who cares about where he ends up on the tier list? he has pretty **** decent matchups for the sixth worst character in the game.

 

[Ulevo]

I personally see Pokemon Trainer as a very underrated character, both on the Tier List and in general opinion of the community.

That really isn't important though. You should play Pokemon Trainer because you enjoy him, and play to win. It's that simple.

 

[Zephramrill]

lol charizard92 with the rock smash on syrus

 

[Pichu Sensei]

I use Flamethrower at the side of an edge, forcing most opponents to go right into it when they use up B, Falco being a very good example of this.

As for rock smash... I use it for up close charizard luvin.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

I love rock smash personally, Neutral B is a bit slow on start up for me, but then again, I might be hitting it too late.

 

[Syrus_Draco]

I love rock smash personally, Neutral B is a bit slow on start up for me, but then again, I might be hitting it too late.

Short hop forward to Flamethrower is a great approach. You're spitting flames before you land and you're backing your opponent further to the ledge.

Also good for shielding yourself from approaches such as Peach floating to you for aerials. When coming back on stage, spit out a Flamethrower for a second or two. Your opponent will try to jump toward you to push you away and hit the flame's needing to back out.

 

[Kinzer]

Funny how one video sparks a page-worthy discussion on one move.

Regardless though.

Post

Well with Sonic, I had to release it into the air to get the properties of an ASC (Aerial SpinCharge (Sonic's Down-B)), otherwise I won't get that chance to get a double strike if I release the SpinCharge on the ground, so I had to let go of it in the air, and rush against Charizard since that's the other requirement of getting off the two-hit ASC. Thus the video.

BTW PT is ballin' he's too low on that lost compared to some other characters, and sadly since other low tier characters also have potential he might not rise too much because he has to compete with the other characters whose metagames aren't stagnate.

...Just thought since I read some other posts before posting concerning PT on the tier list and all that jazz.

 

[Steeler]

hey kinzer

i'm mexican too

 

[Miles.]

you would be

 

[TheReflexWonder]

How plausible is using Charizard's Fly as a Counter-like move of sorts?

Also, do you get more distance (when recovering to the edge, that is) by angling Charizard up or forward?

 

[zeta]

i'm also smexy

i was thinking maybe charizard should be played facing backwards. thoughts?

 

[Miles.]

How plausible is using Charizard's Fly as a Counter-like move of sorts?

Also, do you get more distance (when recovering to the edge, that is) by angling Charizard up or forward?

angle affects distance.

i used fly to stage spike people a lot.

its a good get off the ledge move.

 

[Ulevo]

How plausible is using Charizard's Fly as a Counter-like move of sorts?

Also, do you get more distance (when recovering to the edge, that is) by angling Charizard up or forward?

OoS is works well, but you need to know when to use it and how to time it. I tend to find that because of how upwards Charizard moves when using fly as oppose to horizontal, I don't often catch the opponent properly. This can leave you exposed. Mind you, I haven't done it extensively. But it is a good idea from time to time when an enemy is above you. Actually, this would be useful against Dair camping Meta Knights and the like.

If by distance you mean horizontal distance, it all depends on whether or not you angle the stick forward. If you push it towards the way you face, you'll get the maximum horizontal distance possible. To get the best vertical distance, hold back after Fly initiates.

 

[Steeler]

holding back after Fly is just the same as holding forward but going the other way, isn't it?

zeta i'm gonna assume you mean in the air. when you are facing backwards you have a more damaging and more powerful (i think) aerial at your disposal with bair, although fair has more overall range. rock smash is still an option, b-reversal flamethrower (although difficult to execute) is cool. if you can b-reversal flamethrower then i think playing backwards is more beneficial but it's difficult. i do it on accident sometimes. otherwise flamethrower is too important in most matchups to play facing the other way most of the time...what do you think?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

holding back after Fly is just the same as holding forward but going the other way, isn't it?

zeta i'm gonna assume you mean in the air. when you are facing backwards you have a more damaging and more powerful (i think) aerial at your disposal with bair, although fair has more overall range. rock smash is still an option, b-reversal flamethrower (although difficult to execute) is cool. if you can b-reversal flamethrower then i think playing backwards is more beneficial but it's difficult. i do it on accident sometimes. otherwise flamethrower is too important in most matchups to play facing the other way most of the time...what do you think?

What I meant about Fly's distance is, you can control it like most diagonal recoveries (think Roy from Melee). I was wondering if it might be better to grab while moving straight up. Roy gets better overall distance by holding forward, but that's mostly because he's a fast-faller.

It just depends on the matchup. You have an instant standing grab while facing the opponent, just like you have a virtually instant B-Air while facing away. Both of these can be fixed with a shieldgrab after dashing forwards and a RAR'd B-Air. I don't think it's that big of a deal either way; you can pretty much change to the other direction in a couple of frames, so I don't think it's worth racking your brain about.

 

[Elliot Gale]

How plausible is using Charizard's Fly as a Counter-like move of sorts?

Not at all.

I thought we figured out a long time ago that Fly is obscenely easy to DI even if you didn't see it coming.

 

[Retro Gaming]

What I meant about Fly's distance is, you can control it like most diagonal recoveries (think Roy from Melee). I was wondering if it might be better to grab while moving straight up. Roy gets better overall distance by holding forward, but that's mostly because he's a fast-faller.

Horizontal or vertical? Horizontal I think you will get the best distance by holding it at a 45 degree angle, which is what I typically do. I think it matters more with Squirtle than it does Charizard. I will almost never use Squirtle's side version and will almost always use 45 degrees or straight up.

On the topic of Charizard and Squirtle's recoveries, there is one thing that bothers me immensely, and that is that if you sweet-spot the ledge with them, the next time you're going to land while not already in the lag of an aerial or special you will suffer the recovery special lag you get when you land. Squirtle's lag isn't so intolerable, but Charizard is really laggy after Fly, so I've been trying to reach the ledge without using it whenever possible. I typically land with Flamethrower lag if I am still carrying recovery lag, and try to make an opening to get rid of it as soon as possible.

Also, I've been using Fair, Uair, and Nair from the ledge to clear space to get back on sometimes.

 

[Ulevo]

Horizontal or vertical? Horizontal I think you will get the best distance by holding it at a 45 degree angle, which is what I typically do. I think it matters more with Squirtle than it does Charizard. I will almost never use Squirtle's side version and will almost always use 45 degrees or straight up.

On the topic of Charizard and Squirtle's recoveries, there is one thing that bothers me immensely, and that is that if you sweet-spot the ledge with them, the next time you're going to land while not already in the lag of an aerial or special you will suffer the recovery special lag you get when you land. Squirtle's lag isn't so intolerable, but Charizard is really laggy after Fly, so I've been trying to reach the ledge without using it whenever possible. I typically land with Flamethrower lag if I am still carrying recovery lag, and try to make an opening to get rid of it as soon as possible.

Also, I've been using Fair, Uair, and Nair from the ledge to clear space to get back on sometimes.

This was one of the main reasons I stopped using Marth. Charizard has an easier time with it though, because he has ways to cover himself. Flamethrower, Rock Smash, Bair, Nair all act as defensive measures to prevent being punished from this. Also, Charizard has multiple jumps, and can fly. He isn't in a situation where has to use fly very often if you DI properly. It is a very terrible design flaw though, even if it can be counteracted.

 

[Kinzer]

Back here, one more time.

I'll make it short and straight to the point since I'm lazy. Simply put, if you have some extra free time on your hand, I need your help...

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6691983#post6691983

...There.

Done this as well in the Squirtle/Ivysaur tactical threads, yes.

 

[Bomber7]

You guys got tips on moving well with Charz? Charz was suffering last night at a tourny I went to cuz for some reason I just wasnt able to run around like I usually can when I'm having a good day with him. It could just be that cuz I'm getting quite decent with PT and Charz I am decent at, I managed to pull off quite a few grabs with him, could have done a little more of them, I did decently with rock smash and his other smahes, however I still was bothered by me taking alot of combo's and damage before I could even hit my opponent.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

I don't really see how people think Charizard is a fast mover. Sure, he has a fast dash speed, but his air speed, glide speed, and most of all, his turn-around speed is slow as heck. Anyway, There isn't really a way to move fast with Charizard except to really use his fast moves to your advantage including grabs, jabs, Dtilt, Utilt, Fair, Bair, etc.

 

[DemonFart]

exactly,<3 though.