Charizard Moveset Discussion (Currently: Utilt)

[Onxy]

PM me if you want me to add something to a move that was already discussed or other ideas.


Basically, we discuss moves.

Is there anything we can do with this move? Any AT's or other usage for the move?

I'll need:

Uses:
DMG:
Frames:
AT:
Autocancel:
Special Properties:
Followups and Usage:

Sorry, no pretty pictures, I want to save space xD

I'll update every week.



Rocksmash

Uses: Attacking.

Frame: 24 to hit the rock, 5 to pull out the rock.

Damage 18 sweet spotted (massive knockback), 45 with the debris (little knockback), 35 when fatigued.

Autocancel: No

Super Armor: When Charizard's bringing his head down to smash the rock.

Follow ups and Usage: Rocksmash is a powerful move with many uses, but it depends on the user on how they wish to use it. If you hit the full Rocksmash, you can follow up with an Usmash, grab, jab, or even a Fsmash if lucky.

Rocksmash can be a great offensive move as it is great to use on worn shields to shield-poke them (or even break them). You can wear down shields too, but you are giving the opponent an advantage by letting them shield the whole thing, so only try to use it on their shield when it's already worn.

Rocksmash also can make you hard to approach because of the debris and it can be used in the air.

Rocksmash also makes a great counter move when you can bring out the rock in 5 frames as the opponents attack is getting ready to connect, but not easy to pull off.

Rocksmash is also good for B reversal mind-games.


Fly

Uses: Recovery, combo breaking, attacking.
DMG: 17%, 12% fatigued.
Frames: ?
AT: no
Autocancel: no.
Special Qualities: ?
Super Armor: frames 4 - 13
Followups and Usage:

Fly is similar to waterfall in many ways with differentiations in vertical and horizontal speed, knockback, vertical height and landing lag. Despite this laundry list, it has many properties that stay the same.

Fly does 17% damage total, and 12% when fatigued. It is important to note this is a combo move, so it can be DI'ed out of, but it's a fast enough moving attack that it doesn't happen as often as, say, waterfall. Also like waterfall, its horizontal speed can be changed though in this case, only at the beginning of the move. (Taken from Card)

This is a pretty safe move for recovery, as Zard's body is almost completely covered in hitbox throughout, and even some invincibility frames near the beginning of the move. It is incredibly dangerous, however, to land on the stage with this move without hitting your opponent, as the amount of landing lag is significant.

Fly can be a great attack when used properly. It's a good up-b OOS move, and if angled forwads it can be near impossible to DI out of; it will kill lighter opponents such as fox/meta as early as 80(?) if fresh so it is definitely a danger. It can also be used as a surprise attack from underneath a platform but this is more risky.

Overall a great recovery move though not as diverse as Waterfall. Also a powerful attack when used correctly.

And is also a great combo breaker

Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JF0FpdzdJ4

Silly Fox....

Flamethrower

Uses: Damage racking, spacing, edgeguarding, edge-pressuring, and approaching.

DMG: (it constantly racks damage, but the damage for each hit wasn't mentioned)

Frames: ?

AT: None as of now.

Autocancel: No

Special Properties:
- Similar to Bowser's, but more focused with less range; it also lasts longer by around 2 seconds.
- Can be angled.

Followups and Usage:

I've been thinking about ways to write up a good piece about flamethrower but there's really not much to be said.. So it's gonna be short.

Flamethrower has charizard spew flames from his mouth, sending a constant stream of damage a good distance out from his body. However, this stream dwindles over time, so leaving it out forever will cause it to die and become ineffective. While there is not an overwhelming amount of startup/ending lag, it does exist and is important to be aware of. It is also possible to aim this flame up and down in order to better target your enemy.

Flamethrower is first and foremost a potent damage racker for Charizard. An opponent caught in the middle of the stream can take significant damage depending on DI. A sh'ed flamethrower can be a great move to put pressure on a grounded opponent, especially one who is near the edge and has nowhere to retreat to. It can also be used a keep away tool against an overagressive opponent, as if your opponent gets caught in the stream then they have to retreat and this gives you some space and time to work with.

It can also be used as an edgeguarding tool, though not as the means to an end. Flamethrower used off of the edge of a stage can mess with quite a few recoveries, forcing your opponent into a bad position in order to survive. This can be exploited and punished accordingly. Angling flamethrower down can be very useful in this situation.

Flamethrower is a simple move with a simple purpose. Use it as such.

Uses for flamethrower:

Damage racking
Pressuring a grounded opponent (especially near the edge)
Keeping away agressive opponents
Complementary edgeguarding tool (though usually not for the kill)

My Opinion: Flamethrower has multiple uses:

Damage Racking - It's Charizard's best way of damage-racking. The flamethrower itself isn't too long, but has great focus. People can roll around Bower's flames because it's more radial than it is a stream; it doesn't keep hitting the opponent, because there are windows when you don't take damage.. This is difficult to do against Charizard; try it, and you will end up with +50% damage.

Spacing - I find this to be mediocre at spacing. Charizard has better spacing options than Flamethrower, but it works well against fatties. It's not too useful because has a slow startup time and a dangerous amount of ending lag. It also doesn't go that high when you angle it.

Edgeguarding - This can force an opponent to hang around the edges and avoid the flames, which puts you in a good postition. I would say it works well against spacies, but I didn't really use the Flamethrower as edgeguarding. I would also assume that it would work well against people who decide to edge-stall Charizard. Sorry, not much to say here.

Edge-Pressuring - It works very well against characters who can't jump very high. Characters like Ike (he had to come first, I'm that biased), Bowser, Snake, Ganondorf, Ivysaur, Olimar, and many others. Basically, they have to try to hop around it and hit you. Not an easy task for some of these characters.

Approaching - An okay approach, but he has better options. It suffers as an approach for the same reasons as its spacing option. Slow, can't angle well, smaller range than Bowser's, but still good against the fat ones.

Jab

Uses: Spacing, and following up to another attack.

DMG: 3-hit - 3, 4, 6%...... (when fatigued 2, 3, 5%)

Frames: ?

AT: None

Autocancel: No

Special Properties: yeah, shield when Charizard is attacking you. You will instantly shield the second attack (bad game).

Followups and Usage: A glide to a jab isn't a bad idea. The glide autocancels, so there.

The jab also has many followups, if you don't complete it after the second attack. Like jab, jab, grab; jab, jab, ftilt; jab, jab, Usmash; jab, jab, Dtilt; jab, jab.

My opinion: I love and hate this attack. I love it, because it has range that almost reaches Ike's jab. I hate it because it has NO HITSTUN, during the first attack (bad game). It's also a slow jab; it doesn't seem slow, but for a jab, it is.

Ftilt

Uses: Spacing, kill move, and can be used after an autocancelled aerial.

DMG: 11-12% (8-9% fatigued)

Frames: ?

AT: none

Autocancel: no

Special Properties: can cause fire damage if sweetspotted.

Followups and Usage: It's a spacing move that is a little slow, so it kinda defeats the purpose of it being one. It is faster than something like Ike's Ftilt, but still weaker and less in range. It still has good range, though.

With the problems the move has, it isn't bad as a kill move. While you won't be able to kill fat-arses like King Dedede, you can still kill people who are mid-weight and below. Dtilt is more powerful, but has less range than Ftilt.

You can followup with Ftilt after using moves such as Nair, Glide, Fair, and Bair.

My opinion:
Spacing: It's not bad as a spacer, really, but it being slow kinda takes away from that. Also, it has good range, but good range isn't that great when it's a slow ranged attack. Charizard, himself, doesn't have many quick spacing options, so you got to take what you get.

Kill move: only attack if you are going to tip it, otherwise don't bother. Use Dtilt, if you aren't going for the tip.

 

[Onxy]

More space.

 

[CoonTail]

Well outside of trying not to spam rock smash so much my big use for it is the semi hidden counterattack built into this attack. The way to get the counter to go off is to side b but right as an attack is about to connect, charizard will go to pull the boulder out but instead of a boulder the enemies attack hits the rock instantly and all you see if the rock shards. If you get the timing down its awesome, but overall its not to easy to pull off

 

[Steeler]

yeah, love doing what ice **** described. i'd really loved to find out what frame that hitbox comes out of. it has to be fairly quick.

 

[Kith]

If you get a full rocksmash on someone, you can follow with free upsmash.

 

[Steeler]

you can grab them too.

 

[CaliburChamp]

To me, Rocksmash is the most satisfying move in this game when it hits. Rocksmash can also stage spike on some stages, it happened when I was on Green Greens, against Sonic, when SOnic was only at 15%

 

[Syrus_Draco]

Rock Smash as we know has several of hit boxes and depending where the enemy get's nailed it'll have different effects. Here is what I have found so far.

Far tip of the rock: This seems to do roughly around 18% there about, but you get the huge knock back attack.

Middle of the rock: Here is where you get the rough 43% ~ 48% damage hit. The opponent get's slammed with the rock and the debris around it for the most damage possible. The knock back is not as great as hitting them on the tip, they fly back a fair distance but as you can see it's more of a damage dealer than a kill move at this range. This move does have potential to move the enemy into the knock back hit box time to time.

Between Charizard and the rock: This small space between Charizard and the rock is a bit sketchy. It has the potential to do both the high 43% ~ 48% damage as well as the hard knock back. All together it would be getting the best of both worlds but there are chances when you will only nail one of the two previous mentioned methods so, like stated this one is still a bit sketchy for me to figure out.

As mentioned before it can be used as a semi-counter move when the opponent attacks the rock and get's hit by the debris after.

 

[The Derrit]

rock smash has so many uses its rediculous. it does 45 damage when you hit with everything. I also use it as a shield poke so that the far edge of the rock is near the shield. While the shards are still going, they often hit through the shield which stuns into a free grab. It's also a great interrupt move.

 

[Kitamerby]

I love this move. It kills stupidly early, takes off basically half a stock when it hits, sometimes can be used as a shield against projectiles and STILL hit them, makes a great approach, B-reversal mindgames, super armor last I checked, badass animation, etc. <3 Rock Smash.


Which is funny considering it's one of the worst moves ever created for battle in the history of Pokemon.

 

[The Derrit]

I love this move. It kills stupidly early, takes off basically half a stock when it hits, sometimes can be used as a shield against projectiles and STILL hit them, makes a great approach, B-reversal mindgames, super armor last I checked, badass animation, etc. <3 Rock Smash.


Which is funny considering it's one of the worst moves ever created for battle in the history of Pokemon.

Lol true that.

On the other hand there is no super armor that I'm aware of, someone confirm this?

 

[SonicFire]

I think the armour frames are from when he's bringing his head down to smash the rock to where his head touches the rock or the rock's first blow. It's probably one of the two, maybe.

It's hard to tell.

 

[Zephramrill]

Super Armor in between pulling the rock out and smashing it.

 

[CoonTail]

If you get a full rocksmash on someone, you can follow with free upsmash.

Not to mention that if they were coming down from the air and you hit them with one of the heavy damage smashes you can manage to fsmash them due to rocks pummeling them as they fall out of mid air. If you pull this off right jaws drop because the opponent has no choice but to eat rock and charizard skull.

yeah, love doing what ice **** described. i'd really loved to find out what frame that hitbox comes out of. it has to be fairly quick.

-Steeler if we can get this information I would seriously like to know because I think charizard counter's have so much potential, think about it marth parries the attack with his and only does 20 damage, Charizard blocks their attack with a boulder causing them to break it and hurt themselves with potentially 45 damage.......it would just be ridiculous to pull these off consistently

 

[Adriel]

Rock Smash is brokn.

I like using Rock Smash to protect myself from being edgeguarded. It's not that great for approaching because it can be shielded (with a full shield) and has some ending lag. I like to use it for general defensive purposes. (Sky taught me that Peach can't get past Charizard if you use Rock Smash!)

According to firemario149's frame data thread, Rock Smash comes out in 24 frames. I don't know if that is exact, but it seems about right.

Btw, nice post Syrus!

 

[Trip.]

Use rocksmash moar.

 

[CoonTail]

So can anyone now find the hitbox or frames that allow rock smash to be used as a counter?

 

[Steeler]

yeah, 24 frames for zard to make zard headbutt it, but i just want to know when the rock itself is out, because i think that once the rock is out, the opponent will get hit. and i think the rock comes out within 5 frames. even 3.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Its moves like Rock smash that make me believe that PT has got to be mid tier, not low tier. Also rock smash is great for wearing down shields, if your opponent has a weakened shield, you can shield break their shields.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Charizard gets a f***ing rock out of nowhere and shatters it with his head!!!! thats the epitome of coolness
i need to use more rocksmash.... actually i just use it for surprise kills/a safe kill when my enemy is >100%

 

[typh]

you shouldn't be wearing down shields with it, you should only be using it on already worn down shields

my favorite thing to do is use flamethrower to **** their shield then rock smash the hell out of them

 

[PkTrainerCris]

you shouldn't be wearing down shields with it, you should only be using it on already worn down shields

my favorite thing to do is use flamethrower to **** their shield then rock smash the hell out of them

Oh yeah that must be ****... we should call it the typh combo... unfortunately not a lot of people shield my flamethrower =/

 

[Syrus_Draco]

Just to put this out: A big trend I notice a lot of PT users come into is, once Charizard is out they go into a Rock Smash spam fest. Given I've fallen into that on a few occasion myself as people will rush with the notion of "OMFG ROCK SMASH > ALL" and such. While it may be the most powerful attack in the game there's more to it than just adding damage.

Charizard being the power house of all three Pokemon he has more versed kill moves. If one takes a good look at Charizard he does well to build damage on his own, and should he be switched out for whatever reason, a large number of his moves can land a kill when executed correctly. But more so on the focus of Rock Smash...

So we all like to use Rock Smash as a damage builder knowing it can climb up to 48% at max. It's sound and well to use it to build uip damage from the ground up and all, but use it sparingly. Rock Smash is one solid kill move that kills at a lower percent than all the other kill moves next to Charizard's forward smash. Spam Rock Smash too much, and the connection of just the rubble from the rock will bring that move to a diminished move.

Myself I prefer to have Rock Smash as one of my main kill moves not because it feels satisfying to pull off, but because it is one of his faster kill moves along with Down-Tilt and Up-Smash. I'm not saying this is how you MUST play and use Rock Smash, just pitching my two cents how I feel it may be more effective if used a bit more sparsely than just spamming the move.

 

[Kith]

XD If you're fighting a Marth, and he does Sword's Dance (Ending in the low "combo" move), you can actually pull off a rock smash into a rock smash. What I generally tend to do is Rocksmash while falling or jumping away from my opponent. They'll either take the bait and get hit head on, come in too early and get hit by debris (In which case, I'd grab or up-smash), or they'll stay put and you'll be safely away from him.

 

[Kitamerby]

the connection of just the rubble from the rock will bring that move to a diminished move.

Nope! Rock Smash counts as only one hit each time you use it! Multi-hit moves, and Brawl's definition of "combos" only take up one slot in the cheque, so you have to use Rock Smash 9 times in a row if you want it to be completely staled! So smash away! 3 slowly-executed jab combos should do the trick.

Oh, and I just tested. Fresh Rock Smash kills Mario at 98% no matter how he DI's! :D

It counts as a 5 hit combo, and it does 43% as the max. Apparently, it is very hard to get this % at even mid percents. The initial head smash does 18%. It seems to get more hits (and therefore damage) in if you fall on them while performing the Rock Smash.

Fatigued, the 5 hits total up to 38%, with the initial hit doing 13% damage. It won't KO Mario from the center of FD till like 150%+, though. Ugh. Stamina sucks. :\

 

[typh]

i think it does 45% at the max >_>

 

[Kitamerby]

i think it does 45% at the max >_>

Whoops, yeah, you're right. It's 45 at the max, and 40 when fatigued. Training mode messed up my number crunches. D:

It still only counts as one move in the cache, though.

 

[CoonTail]

yeah, 24 frames for zard to make zard headbutt it, but i just want to know when the rock itself is out, because i think that once the rock is out, the opponent will get hit. and i think the rock comes out within 5 frames. even 3.

Ok......so once the rock is out the counter is possible ok this is gonna take some testing but I deff agree with steeler the rock really seems to come out in 3-5 frames

 

[Canvasofgrey]

Remember, when the rock comes out in those 5 frames, Charizard is still vulnerable during the phase when the rock is out to when he executes the headbutt. He can still be hit during that time.

 

[FrozenHobo]

love using this move. knock opponent off stage -> jump out -> rock smash or fair -> move back towards stage -> rock smash back out.

so much fun.

 

[choknater]

Charizard gets a f***ing rock out of nowhere and shatters it with his head!!!! thats the epitome of coolness

Amazing.

Yes, Rock Smash is an excellent and very versatile move. It can be used in any situation... shield pressure, defense, damage dealing, KO's... even recovery (as a ledge hop attack.) It has a kinda long startup time, but the rock comes out and hits people anyway. Little lag.

It is an excellent move, but should NOT be overused. There are times where faster options (like jabs or ftilt) would be better, and there are times where safer options (flamethrower) should be used to space.

 

[CoonTail]

Remember, when the rock comes out in those 5 frames, Charizard is still vulnerable during the phase when the rock is out to when he executes the headbutt. He can still be hit during that time.

Yes Im aware of that but when your timing for a counter those 5 frames are the startup to the counter after that i expect them to hit the rock. I make sure my spacing is right and 5 frames is a very small time interval

 

[PltnmNgl]

Where is the sweetspot of Rock Smash? (As in the part where the opponent will die at the earliest percentages) Is it inside the rock? Right outside of it?

 

[Syrus_Draco]

Where is the sweetspot of Rock Smash? (As in the part where the opponent will die at the earliest percentages) Is it inside the rock? Right outside of it?

Along the edge of the rock yes. This will do 18% but it gives the KO knock back you're looking for. The second sweet spot can also the space between Charizard and the rock. Depending how you hit with can deal both the massive damage and knock back, but that's the general gist of it.

 

[TheLake]

Im sure its been said numerous times in this already but rocksmash is the best freakin move ever.

Zards tilt game is really impressive too

 

[choknater]

IMO Digimon Tamer needs to be in this game.

Agumon, Angemon, Weregarurumon ftw

 

[Tenki]

Is there some kind of super sweetspot that we're missing?

I think I've seen 56-63 damage done from Rock smash before ;_;

 

[CaliburChamp]

Is there some kind of super sweetspot that we're missing?

I think I've seen 56-63 damage done from Rock smash before ;_;

If your playing with items on, or go to the Wario Ware stage, and your fighting a supersized opponent, from a mushroom or the effect on wario ware, Charizard's rocksmash will do about that much damage. The bigger and heavier your opponent is, the more damage rocksmash will do.
EDIT: It's also a good way to punish Mario's supersized taunt. lol.

 

[CoonTail]

Is there some kind of super sweetspot that we're missing?

I think I've seen 56-63 damage done from Rock smash before ;_;

Yes like calibur champ said they have to be altered to get damage higher than 48%. Rocksmash by itself if it hits completely on a normal character will do a max of 48 damage.

On a side note guys how do u insert the pics of the brawl characters in your sig to show your mains and secondaries as seen in Calibur's sig and Ngl's sig?

 

[PkTrainerCris]

I love seeing new people on the PT boards.... looks like PT is getting simpathy :D
Ontopic, rocksmash is outprioritized by lucas'pkt2, if those two collide, something strange will happen ( the time slows down like a second) but in the end pkt2 wins ... it looks cool, but im not trying it again.. lol