Charizard Matchup Thread WEEK3: Captain Falcon & Donkey Kong

[Steeler]

The Yoshi matchup is worse than I thought. He is insanely safe on shield and eggs > flamethrower in neutral. Catching him is a chore, hitting him is a chore, killing him is a chore.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I two-stocked a scrubby Zero Suit on For Glory today. Ha.

....Anyway, even though the player I fought was bad and let me juggle her to death, Flamethrower consumed her Paralyzer on several occasions. I'd definitely say the default spread is the best way to go for this one.

 

[Smog Frog]

zero suit is one of those matchups where i'd just bring a secondary.

-has a projectile that sets up combos. and whaddya know, zard is combo food.
-has big disjointed range in side b(situational) zair, nair, and grab. this hurts our midrange game considerably.
-has combos for days. uair->uair->uair->ad nauseum->up b just stinks.
-has a projectile that sets up combos for days(though apparently flamethrower beats it)
-can punish commitments from anywhere, safely.

zero suit is just one of those chars that can stay outside our huge effective range, harass us safely with nair/zair, and we cant safely apply pressure since if we get grabbed, we can die at 60%.

65:35/7:3 is my verdict.

 

[-LzR-]

With little activity here on these 2 matchups, should we wait a little more or should we use whatever we have and just move on to another pair of matchups? For the next characters, any recommendations? I'd prefer you pick them so we can be sure someone has a lot to say.

 

[Davregis]

Shulk and Ganondorf or Bowser?

I'd confess I don't have much to say but rather am looking for knowledge on approaching these. Shulk outranges us hard, while GDorf/Bowser are vulnerable to edgeguarding but can trade favorably

 

[Steeler]

Okay, so I feel like the way Zard is supposed to punish a lot of Yoshi's safest stuff is to armor through it. This is very tricky because of his insane airspeed and quick attacks with large hitboxes. So yeah, you can Blitz right through an egg toss if you predict it, or Rock Smash/Hurl the fairs and nairs that would otherwise safely hit your shield. Don't let Yoshi get above your shield because you will eat a dair and it will **** your shield up and/or poke right through. Utilt/Fly/Usmash before he can do that. Fsmash can be a really strong option but it is really slow for what you need it to do. So I find it difficult to space and time to hit through attacks. It can work though. Flamethrower is pretty bad in this matchup, I think Yoshi can double jump out pretty consistently. Any good Yoshi will save their double jump for as long as possible, so a Yoshi with the jump can just armor through a Flamethrower over the edge and hit you for your trouble. On top of that, eggs are just the perfect projectile answer to the fire. They can arc right over it and hit you in the face. Because Flamethrower is slow and loses to eggs, Zard's mediocre neutral game is even worse in this matchup. Also, eggs set up for strong frame traps, especially when you are in the midst of a juggle. I would probably take Fireball Cannon here because at least they outrange eggs from a good distance and force Yoshi to shield or move around them to get to you, which is when you try to correctly answer what he wants to do to you. I need to give Cannon more credit, in a lot of matchups it gives Zard the ability to not have to approach and dodge **** constantly.

Approaching is very difficult because eggs. Egg Lay is also a terrific answer to a Zard dashing up. Aerially, everything Yoshi does in the air beats Zard's aerials. Faster, bigger, whatever.

The biggest issue is that Yoshi at advantage is ****ing insane and hard to get away from. You pretty much need to correctly armor something or you will get comboed and gimped or KO'd. Yoshi fair offstage is terrifying because Zard just cannot avoid it due to the tremendous difference in airspeed and Zard's huge size. Dragon Rush would probably be a big help in this regard, but I have yet to play the matchup with customs.

In customs, I would probably take 3313. Hurl frame 1 armor will give you a stronger option to beat nairs and whatnot. Discussed Cannon vs Flamethrower already. Fly is just the best overall up b, and you really need the fast armor to save your ass from gimps or give Yoshi's aerials a big EFF YOU in air to air situations or in shield if you react quickly (because he can very easily drift out of Fly range if you are slow). Blitz has its merits because you can armor through egg camping and egg gimps + every aerial but fair (seriously, **** that move) to make aggressive edgeguarding less effective. However, Cannon should already serve as an okay answer to eggs (or at least force Yoshi to throw them from higher up, which lets you maneuver underneath him while grounded which is the only place you can really challenge his moves). If you really want Flamethrower, which I don't blame you because it's always a great option against shields, then that is the best reason to take Blitz if you are a BALLSY FUGGIN LIZARDON and think you can just BLAZE INTO YOSHI every time he egg tosses near the ground (or you just want the armored recovery move, which is very viable). So 1113 is okay too. But keep in mind that Yoshi can literally shield the Blitz and dash usmash you BEFORE YOU HIT THE GROUND TO RECOIL. And that **** is stronk. Speaking of which, jab to usmash at KO percents is dumb and am not sure if it is guaranteed ever but it sure is a tight frame trap if not.

If anyone has anything to add or criticism of my suggestions, please step up. I am at a loss for this matchup. I placed second to a Yoshi main recently but the vids were corrupted so I don't have anything to show for advice (it's just me getting bodied anyway). ZSS too, but we all know how bull**** that character's neutral is against us.

Also @ Davregis no one ever trades favorably with the Zard. You silly boy. Rock Smash/Fly + very superior recovery. Ganon and Bowser WISH they could just tank **** like we can.

 

[-LzR-]

I agree with taking Fireball Cannon against Yoshi. If there is nothing to gain from Flamethrower there is no reason no to go with Fireball cannon. It's not as bad as I thought it was, I tried it last weekend and I actually liked it.
The choice between Rocksmash and Hurl is tough, but I'm not sure if there is much to Rock Smash in this MU. Yoshi is so fast he can just hit your armor and drift far enough to not even get hit by the rocks. In that case I would always pick Hurl. At least it would make Yoshi have to guess when to Fair.
Are you sure Blitz is necessary against eggs? Can't Dragon Rush do the same thing? I don't think I've ever actually needed to armor through the eggs, it's not like they travel perfectly horizontally.

 

[Steeler]

@ -LzR- I believe the egg's explosion will hit Dragon Rush. I think it's transcendent. So if you so much as clip the egg itself, the explosion will pop you.

 

[CELTiiC]

Hey guys! DK boards are currently discussing the DK vs Charizard matchup and would love to get some input from some Charizard mains on how the matchup plays out with or without customs.

http://smashboards.com/threads/monk...atchup-thread-wave-2-falcon-charizard.396228/

 

[-LzR-]

I made a reply to DK boards.

For the rest of you, I guess no one else has anything to say about these matchups? I still haven't had the chance to play against our Yoshi/ZSS players so I have nothing else to add. Should we extend this until I get to play these matchups or should we go to the next discussion?
If we go for another discussion, please let me know which matchups you would be able to contribute towards so we don't end up with more of these inactive discussions.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I say we move on.

 

[ZephyrZ]

We Zards are a loyal yet small community of Smashers; we love our character, but most people don't main Zard just because he's not all that good considering the trouble it takes to learn him.

I think for the upcoming rounds, we make like the other match up threads and invite people to come over to join our discussion.
This may be a bit troublesome at times, as others seem to greatly underestimate Zard, but it'd certainly help keep discussion going and possibly give us Zards more of a presence in this forum, which is important for evolving our metagame.

I'd even be willing to play the role of our diplomat if you don't want to bother posting in other character's boards yourself.

 

[-LzR-]

That sounds like a good idea. I will try my best to update the thread today when I get home.
Don't worry, I can handle posting on the other boards for their views too. If I am for some reason too busy for that I'll remember to ask you.

 

[-LzR-]

I updated the OP. Please tell me what you think.

Next discussion will be Captain Falcon and DK.

 

[rrrRandy]

I'm late, but I had an opportunity to play against ZSS in tournament again a few days ago, and I'd say the matchup isn't as bad as -3. To get out of juggles/D-throw setups, all you have to do is DI as far away as you can; D-throw to up-B should never be able to connect at a % where it will actually kill Charizard, and even if it does hit, you can either DI out of it during the multi-hit, or the trajectory on the final hit is easy enough to DI such that you'll often be able to survive that hit up to around 120% (140% if you're hit in the wrong direction). Also if you DI way out, you can quite safely Flare Blitz back towards the stage, since the move is actually really hard for ZSS to challenge in the air (and if she tries, you'll win every trade). ZSS' Paralyzer is largely unsafe against Charizard, who can Flamethrower or Flare Blitz right through the shots. When using Flamethrower, you have to stop the move before it stops hitting so you can shield the buffered Flip Kick that will likely be coming (you may be able to get a punish if you powershield it, maybe with a hard Fly read if you're up to it). On that note, Flip Kick is the move that really makes this matchup difficult, since it's hard to punish and is able to kill you much earlier than any of ZSS' other moves; on certain stages, you're going to need to be extremely patient if ZSS starts camping and fishing for a Flip Kick. Something important to know for this matchup, though: Charizard's F-smash can hit ZSS on the ledge. I'd say the matchup is a -2 at worst, if the opponent camps (try to avoid Delfino and Duck Hunt if you can), but it's much closer to even if the ZSS has to approach; you can snowball hard if you get a stock lead.

Captain Falcon can be a difficult matchup, because he hits almost as hard as you do and takes hits almost as well as you do, except he's faster in every way. Captain Falcon also barely has to commit to any one action, making it hard to mix him up for a safe landing out of a juggle (but unlike ZSS, Falcon's juggles actually hurt); landing with Rock Smash is incredibly unsafe here. What you have over Falcon is range on normals (watch out for F-smashes though), and with no projectile, he can't camp you out. Charizard can actually play the defensive role in this matchup. Captain Falcon can't really rush in on your N-air, and Fly is a really strong out-of-shield punish option. If you get Falcon off-stage, you can quite safely Flamethrower the ledge while he's trying to recover and rack on some extra damage for free, since the fire will repeatedly hit him out of his up-B (I'm pretty sure it even beats the custom up-B that turns the move into a hit instead of a grab). Wall him out with jabs, Flamethrower and disjointed tail/wing attacks. Safe defensive play isn't usually Charizard's style, but for a hard-hitting rushdown character like Captain Falcon, that's probably what you'll have to resort to. Either 0 or -1 for Charizard; you're slower, and you can be punished hard, but you do have a range advantage.

Donkey Kong is an interesting one. Both Donkey Kong and Charizard excel on stages with platforms, and have really good moves for keeping opponents off the ground. At first, it may seem like the matchup is in DK's favour, since Charizard's aerial mobility is awful, DK hits hard, is heavier and has longer range on most moves, and Kong Cyclone is a way better up-B than Fly. But there are two important things that make the matchup a lot easier for Charizard: DK gets shield-poked very easily, and you can fight Kong Cyclone. Rock Smash will shield-poke DK 90% of the time, making it really safe landing option. Flamethrower will let you pressure a shield, approach Hand Slaps or cover the Kong Cyclone option by stopping it during startup. Since Kong Cyclone relies on lagless landings on platforms, and Charizard's U-smash and U-tilt cover platforms extremely well, you can actually pressure DK when he uses it. Rock Smash or Flare Blitz vs Kong Cyclone is some stupid stuff. What if they're not using Kong Cyclone? Free D-air spikes, this isn't even a fight. This match up is probably +1 (+2 with no Cyclone) for Charizard. You don't win trades, survive as long or kill as early as you would in most matchups, but DK's awful shield and massive hurtbox make this a lot easier than it really should be.

Also, for stages, I can't think of any matchups where you wouldn't want to go straight to Battlefield, not even Kong Cyclone. Other stages with platforms have their merits, but always go Battlefield when you can. Otherwise, Smashville, T&C and Halberd are usually stages you don't mind. (Slopes on sides of Halberd and Lylat can mess up your shorthop game, so be careful with those.) The other stages tend to allow too much room for some characters to camp you out.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

DK is really easy.

Flamethrower shuts down approaches.
Rock Smash and Fly powers through most things.
You hit around as hard.
He has no projectile to bug you.

He's pretty easy.

Even Kong Cyclone ain't that bad.

Falcon is interesting.

You need to ensure he makes mistakes, he's gonna rush you as much as possible, especially for dash grabs and get you into combos, but remember, you can mid air jump twice to escape some and have super armor moves. If need be, you can power through a Falcon Punch or a Knee of justice. You just need to time things REALLY carefully. He's also super gimpable with Flamethrower., which is really nice.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Oh, being a For Glory scrub, Captain Falcon is one I have to deal with all the time. They're even more common then Little Mac these days.

Maybe it's just that I'm not fighting the world's greatest players, but Falcons don't feel like as much as a threat as they should. Maybe it's because we're resistant to both fire and fighting attacks.

The biggest thing we should fear with Captain Falcon is his juggles. Between his speed and his powerful punishes, we have a really difficult time landing. If he reads an obvious Rock Smash, he can punish with a side-b, and he's too fast for us to reliably keep at bay with flamethrower on the way down. Mixing up your juggle escapes is important, but it's doubly so with Falcon, and I don't even bother with Rock Smash when I'm at a kill percent most of the time.

Captain Falcon is all about rush down, though, and we can use this to our advantage. While we should use it cautiously, a good Rock Smash here and there can really be helpful. I also love using Flamethrower as he approaches; sometimes they forget we have a move with that type of range.

Falcon's edgeguard is nasty, but we can deal with it. Flare Blitz or Dragon Rush should be enough to stave off the Knee of Justice(especially Blitz), and Fly makes it very risky for Falcon to go for a Meteor Smash.

I give it a -1. Difficult, but hey, we don't have to worry about getting past camping or approaching for once.

 

[-LzR-]

I believe Falcon is one of our hardest matchups, but I don't think I have enough experience to add much to this discussion yet. There will be a 50~ player tournament this weekend and I'll try to play as much as I can against DK and Falcon (we have an amazing player for both of these characters here).

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Yeah, I honestly don't feel Falcon is as hard as you're making it out to be @ -LzR-

 

[-LzR-]

It's never too late @ rrrRandy , I updated the OP a bit after reading your post.

 

[Sheepy]

In my area I have acid, a well known Falcon in the tristate and MDVA area. I believe he's also on the smashboards "Who's good at this character" thread that was started a little bit ago.

Anyways. This match up is insanely hard against us. Yes, we can power through things with FB, Fly, and Rock Smash, but you know what makes it laughable to Falcon players? Speed. Falcon's speed is our downfall with the armor options. To be able to recover faster and just go for simple options is what kills us.

After the first time we played, acid figured out to just go for jab combos, dthrow combos, fthrow by the ledge, or tilts by the ledge. It's a simple strategy and it hurts us. Sure bair and the knee are kill moves, but we still have rock smash to at least deal with the knee. I usually throw that when I see the knee bend on its start up. It's fast, but I've been able to successfully do it after practice, not perfect, but successful most times. Also from what I can tell almost 9/10 times jab jab grab is guaranteed for them until ~80% maybe a little lower or higher depending on rage for them.

Dthrow to uair x amount of times depending on DI and how low of a % you and Falcon are at hurts a lot. You're going to eat most of the uairs if your DI isn't on point after the throw. So if your DI is bad, you could end up eating 2-3 uairs before it's all over with.

Another thing (that at least acid will do) is by the ledge he will grab you and just pummel. He pummels until you either break out or fall out. If you know how to place Fly to go past the ledge and stop an edge guard, do it. If you don't, practice it. Right after that drop there will be an utilt and it more than likely will kill you.

Overall, this match up is 60-40 Falcon's favor. Not unwinnable, but not easy. You just have to stay one or two steps ahead of them and make great reads and you can do it.

(I'm also on mobile so any spelling errors or spacing errors, sorry.)

 

[-LzR-]

I finally got around to playing with matchups with Trifroze yesterday. We played for a good hour or two.
I used to think this matchup was almost impossible, but those matches made me realize that's not the case.

Neutral game:
Falcon dominates the neutral game. Being at neutral is really bad. His dashgrab and dash attack both force you to commit from larger distances as those moves burst range is simply insane and so are the rewards.
If Falcon manages to cross you up and Bair you from behind there isn't much you can do. Try to shield and perhaps roll away or if you are feeling ballsy go for a reverse upB OoS. Anything else will lose to the quick jab that you can't shield grab because he is hitting your back.
Against dashgrab try to straight up Jab him out of it or spotdodge it in time to punish with a jab. Against Dash Attack punish it with Usmash OoS and at higher % go for a kill with UpB OoS. Don't attempt to challenge his Dash Attack, the disjoint is massive and you will most likely fail.
If you let Falcon get into his jab range you will already be at a disadvantage, try to keep him at a safe distance away but don't give him room to space you out with his speed.
Try not to attack his shield much, anything you do to his shield will be asking to get dash grabbed. Perhaps Flamethrower can be used against his shield, but anything else will get Dash grabbed without a doubt. Instead play around this by abusing a lot of grabs to force him to not use shield as much. Throws are great in this matchup. Bthrow leads into Fair, Dash Attack and Dragon Rush until mid %. In order to win, you should try to take Falcon offstage, this is where we have the advantage.

Edgeguarding:
Whenever Falcon gets offstage you have a chance to kill him or get a lot of damage. Falcons recovery is pretty bad and predictable. At lower % you might want to risk a spike for a very early kill. Later on you should attempt to Nair/Fair/Bair him out of his recovery. No point risking a spike at later % when those easier options will kill anyways. A good sweetspot nair at 50% offstage will usually spell doom for Falcon. Don't be afraid to dive deep offstage, your recovery is amazing, you have nothing to worry about. A very ballsy way to edgeguard Falcon is to intentionally get hit by his upB to prevent him from swettspotting the ledge, then wallteching and Fairing/Nairing him while he is still in the lag from the upB explosion.
If Falcon is recovering from below the stage, use Flamethrower angled downward from the ledge. This is free damage and there is nothing Falcon can do about it but keep using upB only to get back into the flames. If Falcon is directly below the ledge this means he will eventually hit you with an upB, but at that point he has taken so much damage it's easily in your favor, but it ends the edgeguard. If Falcon recovers diagonally below the stage, use Flamethrower angled diagonally downward from the ledge. If you hit him in this angle and stop the flamethrower at a right time this can set up an easy spike or a fair for a gimp. Learn to recognize this situation.
When Falcon learns the power of Flamethrower he will attempt to recover with sideB or overshoot the ledge. If you can read this it means free Fairs, Flamethrowers, Bairs, even Fsmashes.

Now for Falcon edgeguarding us:
Learn to sweetspot the ledge with Dragon Rush and UpB. If you don't he will Uptilt you into an early death.
Falcon can't dive deep offstage as easily as we can so most of your trouble will be at the ledge, but be careful as sometimes they can do ballsy edgeguards with fast fall bairs or knees. Dair also has a big disjoint. If you expect Falcon to jump at you offstage and you are near the ledge, time an upB to armor through and recover safely. If Falcon jumps really deep offstage against you horizontally, be prepared to DownB. He can't wait out the downB and then punish because he would fall too much to recover back anymore. If you can bait him into attempting to hit you out of the ledge, you can jump back from the ledge and Dragon Rush back on stage.
Make sure to not get ledgetrumped, I'm pretty sure that means a free Bair/Uair.

Landing/Juggling:
Both characters struggle with landing and enjoy juggling in this matchup. Falcon will Upair you for days and you will eat all of his landing attempts. Pay attention to when Falcon tries to Upair you. If you have any jumps left, jump to avoid the uair and fastfall with Nair to land. It's very hard for him to beat Nair if he isn't directly below you and is already in the air. Flamethrower and DownB are also situationally great landing tools, but don't be predictable or you will be heavily punished for it. Another option if you are near the top blastzone is to Dragon Rush offstage, fall down a bit and then try to secure the ledge. It's way easier for Charizard to recover than land safely in this matchup so it might be worth it. If you are really high in the air Falcon can't just chase you for a free knee either.

Customs:
According to what Trifroze said, Falcon doesn't have any useful customs in this matchup so expect the defaults.

For us, I strongly recommend Dragon Rush and Rock Hurl.
Dragon Rush easily outclassed Flare Blitz as usual, but especially in this matchup. It gives you the best recovery in the game compared to how heavy we are while giving us a great move to whiffpunish and it can combo from Bthrow. It can also kill at very early % if you can land it offstage. The advantages Flare Blitz offers are not useful against Falcon. You will mostly use SideB for recovering and you would rather not take damage from that. Falcon also has plenty of moves that will cleanly beat Flare Blitz armor like it was nothing. Please don't use Flare Blitz against Falcon, there is no reason to do so.
Rock Hurl is in a similar position. It simply outclasses Rock Smash here. With 1f super armor it means basically no knee is guaranteed unless he lands a very good Upair near the ground and that can be avoided. This makes knee very hard to properly land against Charizad, giving Falcon serious problems taking our stocks before very high % unless he gets a good edgeguard.

Stages:
Almost any stage offers are much for both characters so it's a lot about preference.
Avoid FD/Omega at all costs. Falcon can manage a lot better without platforms than us and it further increases our troubles landing while not being as bad for them.
For similar reasons stay away from Duck Hunt.

I think the matchup is -1 for us, almost even, but Falcons speed and combos give him a slight edge. Without customs the matchup is easily -2.

 

[charizardbro]

@ -LzR- Captain Falcon has a wall jump so he can go a lot deeper on stages with vertical walls at the edges. So definitely stay away from Duck Hunt and other maps with those kinds of edges. Wouldn't Falcon's Utilt hit you out of Dragon Rush though? As far as I know that move doesn't have any armor at all.

I don't have anything to add to the matchups otherwise

 

[Sheepy]

@ C charizardbro I actually like taking Falcon to Duck Hunt. Mainly because of the platform changes that happen through out the match. The sides don't matter tbh. You should be pushing them off with fire most of the time, so they either have to jump and recover or freak out and keep up b-ing to try and get back up.

 

[16LetterUsername]

Ive got a lot of experience playing against cpt falcon, due to my brother playing him nonstop. I would assume that most cpt falcons are aggresive, and love to roll. At tleast thats the case in my experience. Punish the **** out of that roll with flare blitz, and confuse him by using that super armor at weird times.

Falcon seems to be rly good at guarding your recovery back to the stage, let alone edgeguarding. I personally will try to come back high with flare blitz, saving my 2 extra flp jumps just in case. And ya never know, the cpt falcon youre playing against might know about that up tilt meteor when standing on the ledge. Thats why i come back high.

If they are super aggresive, they might want to jump out at you and down air you into hell. I like to punish this by doding it, getting above him, and down iring him into hell instead!

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Captain Falcon is a stressful MU for Charizard, but not impossible. Flamethower and our tilts do a decent job of zoning him out and denying him the dash grab, and he'll have to play around those if he wants to set up his Dhtrow into Uair strings. He can juggle us, but we can also juggle him, the one who maintains stage control wins.

Flamethrower over the edge is the bane of CF's recovery.

Overall, Even MU or Slight Advantage to Falcon if he plays patiently.

 

[Steeler]

It's more about jabs than tilts, it's got a better combination of range and speed.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Rosalina is now analyzing Charizard at her match-up analysis thread. If you have anything to contribute for the Rosalina vs. Charizard match-up, we'll be analyzing Charizard until the end of 4/14.

Just keep note that at Rosalina's sub-forum, all match-up discussions will be under Rosalina's perspective.

 

[Antonykun]

Hey Charizard lovers, Villager main here.
In our matchup thread, we are starting a discussion on Dragon himself and unfortunately Charizard is one of the few characters I am starved for information about.
I know you are having discussions on Donkey Kong and Captain Falcon, but if even one you guys can help with the discussion, that would be amazing

 

[charizardbro]

@ S Sheepy I mean for when both characters are off stage and Falcon is trying to Dair or something. Falcon can go a lot lower for the Dair if he's got a walljump, second jump and Uspecial to get back to the ledge with. It also means falcon can use his second jump a little more freely for positioning before the Dair while still going pretty low. Charizard's recovery is pretty great for a heavy but we don't take meteor smashes particularly well. Not really worth changing(? I don't play Wii U) platforms IMO. Go to Smashville or Battlefield if you want platforms for your match against Falcon.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Still though, Meteor Smashing the 'Zard is really risky. Not impossible, but risky.
If he hits Charizard during Fly's super armor frames, Falcon gets hit.
If he whiffs Charizard or is too slow to throw out the meteor smash, Falcon gets hit.

Then there is the slight risk of messing up the wall jump.

 

[charizardbro]

@ ZephyrZ It's really not risky at all. And I think you also kind of ignore the more likely (IMO) possibility that Charizard whiffs hitting Falcon during super armor frames.

It's particularly safe when Falcon goes out far enough to get it. Fly only has so much horizontal range. If Falcon meets Charizard at a point where Fly does not have the horizontal range to reach the ledge (which happens a lot easier than you may think when Falcon has a wall jump to work with), what does Charizard do?

1. Use Fly anyway. You'll armor through the Dair and Falcon will eat all of the hits of Fly at a pretty low altitude. Charizard falls to his death and Falcon almost certainly lives. Trade heavily favors Falcon.
2. Use Uair/Nair. Falcon eats the hit but, again, almost certainly lives. You may have too much aerial lag afterwards to recover, especially if you don't have a 2nd and 3rd jump left. 'Trade' can go either way but Falcon stands to gain a lot more than we do.
3. Recover with Flare Blitz a lot (read: LOT) more often at mid to high percents so that this doesn't happen. 'Trade' always slightly favors Falcon.

Even if Falcon takes Fly during its super armor frames, the times when Falcon will actually eat the last hit (and run the risk of getting KO'd at really high percents) are pretty far and between. Charizard will grab the ledge before the last hit ends unless he's positioned to overshoot the ledge without grabbing it and grab it on the way back down. Sure, nobody really trades well with Charizard in the long run but if your Fly cancels itself early enough, the trade can pretty solidly favor Falcon (Falcon's Dair does 14%, our Fly does 5%-13% assuming it gets canceled by the ledge sometime before the last hit) to the point where it's worth more to Charizard to just avoid the situation all together with Flare Blitz. You'll probably take more percent than you would if you traded Dair with Fly every time but this at least removes the possibility that you lose a stock.

 

[DavemanCozy]

We've started prelim. discussion of the Charizard vs Fox MU in the Lylat System:
vs

Click here to discuss this MU with us

 

[Steeler]

So, here is the Charizard matchup thread, in a nutshell:

1. Is Flamethrower good in neutral? If yes, assume an even or 0 matchup. If no, start at -1.

2. Can you reliably super armor (Fly and Rock Smash) out of pressure, because either their frame data or movement speed isn't that great? If yes, add 0. If no, move it another -1.

3. Can you gimp their recovery reliably? If yes, add +1. If not, add 0.

That's it. Try it. It'll pretty much work with how you probably "feel" about a matchup at this point. Charizard is so binary. ~.~ If you think it doesn't match up with a character, post up and mention it.

I seriously can't imagine a matchup where Zard is a +2 advantage. His neutral is so dependent on Flamethrower it's not even funny.

Then again, if you turn customs on, every matchup is even because D R A G O N R U S H B O Y S

 

[Bloodcross]

That's... hilarious.

 

[Davregis]

Wow I'm sad now

 

[Silvalfo]

I'm a Falcon main and DK secondary, and one of the people I play the most mains Charizard.

If Falcon plays patiently, Charizard must not commit. When Falcon commits, however, he isn't as safe as he seems to be. The thing with Falcon's safety is that he's usually too far away for you to punish, but his cooldown on most moves is actually bad. This isn't very good for Zard due to his bad mobility anyway.
Charizard can hit a lot of jabs and grabs in this MU, use this on the ground for punishes. Also, range-wise, Charizard outclasses Falcon horizontally in the air with fair and the (very unsafe) bair. Autocanceled nair is also a decent option against an offensive Falcon, but he can just walk, PS the hit and proceed to combo forever. I don't think Falcon can dashgrab a shielded dtilt if Zard mashes a jab or spotdodge, unless he PSes it. Up-angled ftilt is surprisingly useful against SH-happy Falcons

It's okay to try hard to Rock Smash or Rock Hurl to armor through his dthrow follow-ups, but if Falcon reads you doing it, Charizard gets punished so hard it isn't even funny.

Edgeguarding, though, is where Charizard has an advantage. Charizard's recovery is pretty safe if you don't mess up Flare Blitz's/Dragon Rush positioning, and your fair, dair and nair can all beat Falcon's regular upB given the right positioning. More seasoned Falcons will adjust their upB reading your correspondent aerial in order to not get hit or even aerial grab you, so this becomes a quick reading game. Be careful if customs are on and Falcon goes Falcon Strike, though. It goes higher than regular upB and has a good hitbox. Oh, and Flamethrower. This can make Falcon cry in his futile attempts to reach the ledge.

Charizard can't land on FD/Omegas, and Battlefield is where Falcon's pressure truly shines. Choosing stages is pretty hard for Charizard in this case and I don't even know how to help lol.

I'd say it's a solid +2 for Falcon.

I have much less experience on DK vs Charizard, but be careful with grounded moves because Charizard isn't good against DK's regular downB. Flamethrower shuts DK down very frequently and fair outclasses anything not named DK's bair when face to face in the air. Bad news are: DK is always using bair.

 

[Steeler]

It's a tedious +2 for Falcon, if that. Flamethrower is guaranteed if Falcon has to up B, which drastically limits how he can mix up his timing and spacing when he up Bs again. Flamethrower is also pretty useful on stage because Falcon has no projectiles. Zard also has an extra jump to help him reposition and get out of juggles. It's still a very bad place to be, though.

With customs doe, this is even or possibly slightly Zard advantage. Dragon Rush is a free edgeguard situation a lot of the time, which is amazing for Zard in this matchup. DR can contest with anything Falcon does out of shorthop. @VaBengal might be right. It changes a lot of matchups by instantly taking Zard out of neutral and putting him in an edgeguard situation.

 

[-LzR-]

Oops. I totally forgot to wrap this up! I will be busy most of the weekend so you might have to wait a few days before I can start a new one. Any recommendations for characters?

 

[J0A0B]

Might I suggest Sonic and King Dedede? It's probably important to know how to deal with Sonic due to his speed and priority, which can be disadvantaging unless there are explanations for overcoming Charizard's weaknesses and Sonic's strengths. For Dedede, I have always had trouble against him online and it feels like despite them both being heavyweights, Dedede has the safer approaches and is a contender on survivability. I'm curious what analysis can actually be brought between the two.