Charizard Matchup Thread WEEK3: Captain Falcon & Donkey Kong

-LzR-

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#1
"Insert amazing Charizard pic here"

As discussed in the social thread (thanks Coffee), we should try to have a thread dedicated to discussion about matchups. I have noticed there are as many different views on the matchups as there are Charizard users here so I decided to go ahead and create a thread where we can discuss these things and collect all the good stuff into one easy to find location.

I will start with a not so cool thread but I will with time keep polishing it with things until it becomes amazing. I will appreciate all the help I can get.

Please keep all the discussion that isn't related to matchups to the Metagame discussion or the social thread.

Copying a bit from the Greninja boards, I think having 2 characters each week should work well.
Let's begin with the infamous two: Diddy Kong and Sheik.

Even if you feel like you aren't the next Charizard god, speak up your mind, the discussion is what matters, not the numbers we end up with. Videos are very welcome too. Eventually the good information will be added to the first post where it's easy to find without having to search around the forums.

[collapse=Diddy Kong (-2)]
:4diddy:
Pros:
-Charizard is good at edgeguarding Diddy kong
-Charizard is much heavier and has much stronger kill moves

Cons:
-Getting grabbed hurts, Diddy can Uair Charizard for days and it's very hard to land
-Bananas are troublesome, learn to Z catch them
-His Fair will easily beat everything we have at neutral, try not to directly challenge it
-Ledgetrump into Bair

Diddy Kong will spend most of the match controlling the stage with bananas and trying to land a grab on you. It's very hard to beat Diddy Kong in neutral without hard reads, but when Diddy is sent offstage or in the air it will get much easier. Avoiding getting grabbed should be #1 priority.

Stages to Counterpick:

Stages to Ban:

Customs:
Dragon Rush and Rock Hurl recommended.

[/collapse]
[collapse=Sheik(-2)]
:4sheik:
Pros:
-Sheik has to work much harder to land kills while Charizard can easily land a kill move before 100%
-Sheik cannot trade with us
-Super armor is effective against Sheiks combos

Cons:
-Sheik can combo Charizard for days, closing the kill gap between the characters
-Edgeguarding Sheik is difficult
-Getting grabbed hurts

Sheik will dominate the neutral game with their greater mobility and safe pressure. Landing a hit will be very difficult, but you only have to land a few while they need to get a lot of hits for the KO. Looking for trades is favorable thanks to the kill power/weight difference. Sheik needs to take great care with combos in order to avoid super armor moves.

Stages to Counterpick:

Stages to Ban:

Customs:
Flare Blitz is effective if Sheik uses fully charged needles but Dragon Rush is more reliable.
Rock Hurl is recommended to make Sheik have to second guess their follow ups in order to not trade


[/collapse]
[collapse=Yoshi(-1)]
:4yoshi:
Pros:
-His grabgame isn't a threat to us

Cons:
-We are a huge target so we have a hard time dealing with Egg Toss from the distance
-If Yoshi gets momentum it will be extremely hard to reset back to neutral
-His airspeed is so high he can weave through your armor and get out of there in time to not get hit
-Yoshi has an aerial grab

Okay, so I feel like the way Zard is supposed to punish a lot of Yoshi's safest stuff is to armor through it. This is very tricky because of his insane airspeed and quick attacks with large hitboxes. So yeah, you can Blitz right through an egg toss if you predict it, or Rock Smash/Hurl the fairs and nairs that would otherwise safely hit your shield. Don't let Yoshi get above your shield because you will eat a dair and it will **** your shield up and/or poke right through. Utilt/Fly/Usmash before he can do that. Fsmash can be a really strong option but it is really slow for what you need it to do. So I find it difficult to space and time to hit through attacks. It can work though. Flamethrower is pretty bad in this matchup, I think Yoshi can double jump out pretty consistently. Any good Yoshi will save their double jump for as long as possible, so a Yoshi with the jump can just armor through a Flamethrower over the edge and hit you for your trouble. On top of that, eggs are just the perfect projectile answer to the fire. They can arc right over it and hit you in the face. Because Flamethrower is slow and loses to eggs, Zard's mediocre neutral game is even worse in this matchup. Also, eggs set up for strong frame traps, especially when you are in the midst of a juggle. I would probably take Fireball Cannon here because at least they outrange eggs from a good distance and force Yoshi to shield or move around them to get to you, which is when you try to correctly answer what he wants to do to you. I need to give Cannon more credit, in a lot of matchups it gives Zard the ability to not have to approach and dodge **** constantly.

Approaching is very difficult because eggs. Egg Lay is also a terrific answer to a Zard dashing up. Aerially, everything Yoshi does in the air beats Zard's aerials. Faster, bigger, whatever.


Stages to Counterpick:

Stages to Ban:

Customs:
Flamethrower is awful here as Yoshi can just double jump straight through or throw eggs in an arc that avoids the flames. Fireball cannon is preferred instead.
Flare Blitz will keep Yoshi in check and prevents him from throwing eggs at mid range, but Dragon Rush has more utility overall. It's up player preference.
Rock Hurl is the recommended downB. The 1 frame super armor is very useful here and Yoshi can play so safe you will never get a full damage Rock Smash.

[/collapse]
[collapse=Zero Suit Samus (-3)]
:4zss:
Pros:
-Charizard kills much earlier on average if you manage to avoid upB.
-They have a hard time comboing into upB when it kills
-Charizard is able to keep momentum if he gains a lead
-They have a hard time edgeguarding if Charizard chooses to recover with Flare Blitz

Cons:
-Paralyzer, SideB are excellent zoning tools that Charizard has trouble dealing with
-Getting hit means eating a big combo, possibly into an early upB kill
-Her DownB is an easy way to deal with Flamethrower

Offensively, it's hard to fight ZSS offstage because of the tether and Flip Kick. This is especially problematic for Dair but if you do manage to land a Dair, ZSS will probably lose a stock since her vertical recovery isn't great. She can Flip Kick on over most of our other offstage options or outrange them with Zair. But, ZSS does not have particularly good options to hit opponents that are directly below her so you'll want to be under her to do the most damage. ZSS's Nair has a weird (slanted, right?) hitbox that won't hit opponents that are below but behind her so use that to your advantage. She has pretty much no options for hitting you when you're below her but be ready to cover Flip Kick landings since it is usually a really good/safe escape option for ZSS. ZSS's Dair also has a ton of landing lag but you really shouldn't be seeing her use it at all. You can get a lot of mileage out of spotdodging the grabs of particularly grab-happy ZSS players but the safer ones that stick to projectiles and disjointed options (Nair, Zair, Usmash, and side special) will be a lot harder to rack up percent on. Your best KO options for the matchup are probably Uair/tilt/smash and Dthrow. You might be able to score a KO using flare blitz if you read a charged paralyzer shot. Flamethrower edge guards for a little extra % should work fine but ZSS can read that with a Flip Kick for some damage so can be a bit of a mindgame.

Defensively, it's really a nightmare. The Dthrow to up special combo is cake for ZSS against bigger/heavier characters, even at higher percents. I would appreciate it if someone could test how it works with DI and stuff at various percents but it was a true combo for me in training mode and it killed when I was near the ledge while charizard was at 86% (pre-grab) on FD. Dthrow to U/F/Bair is also a pain but Charizard should be able to tank quite a few Uairs and Fairs before finally being KO'd by one. Do not DI the Dthrow toward (iirc) ZSS at higher percents. That's how you get Bair'd and lose a stock. As for getting out of combos, the ledge is probably going to be a good option but ledge trump Bair is a thing so watch out for that too. I don't think it is particularly better to recover high/low specifically against ZSS as long as you are out of range of her Flip Kick spike (just don't be horizontal with the stage, go above or below). Save your jumps until just before you land if you try to land on stage because Usmash will outrange any Nair you want to land with and the tether grab has surprisingly good range. Charizard's second and third jumps may be small but they can get you out of range of these options well enough.

It's the kind of matchup where the opponent won't kill early (barring the odd Uspecial or Dspecial near ledge) and Charizard will win and lose the game trying to read things while the opponent looks for the kill.

When using Flamethrower, you have to stop the move before it stops hitting so you can shield the buffered Flip Kick that will likely be coming (you may be able to get a punish if you powershield it, maybe with a hard Fly read if you're up to it).

Some notes.
Flare Blitz does plow through any Paralyzer but only use it if she's actually charging and you know you're close. Too far and she'll shield.
Plasma Wire will stop Rock Smash DEAD IN ITS TRACKS. It won't hurt, but it will clash.Charizard will actually drop the rock.
Flip Jump is tricky, but Fly can destroy it with a good read. The fact that you can straight up counter this is a great mental tool as it can intimidate.
Up B we just have to tank or Rock Smash if you can.
Her grab makes me cry.
She combos us quite well.
ZSS shouldn't be able to combo UpB after a Dthrow most of the time when you are at kill %

ZSS is quite the hard character for Zard. She's fast, combos well, has an annoying projectile and has a ton of range. Fighting her seems impossible at first, but you do actually have some tool to counter her strategies. This is a matchup where you're really gonna need to rely on your weight to keep you alive. Mind games and the intimidation factor are what you need. You have incredibly powerful killing tools and ZSS has average recovery. You need to make her fear you.

Stages to Counterpick:


Stages to Ban:
Delfino Plaza
Duck Hunt

Customs:
The armor of Flare Blitz is more useful than in most matchups. ZSS doesn't have much trouble dealing with Dragon Rush either.
Rock Hurl should be used escape her strings and make them double guess their follow ups, you won't be getting the full damage of Rock Smash so there is nothing to lose by switching to Hurl.
Flamethrower is interesting... It's nearly useless in neutral but gimps ZSS so well. I'm thinking Flare Cannon will be more useful in neutral due to its range. Depends on what you want to do I guess.

[/collapse]
 
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Zachmac

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#3
Our biggest priority with these two is not to get comboed.
I haven't fought many Shieks yet, but I've fought one or two ferocious Diddies that completely kicked my tail.

Flamethrower is a decent move for approaches as stuff, but it's got just barely enough start up lag that these two speedsters can come in and get you if you try to use it as an approach. Instead, you'll want them to approach you and intercept them with it.
Diddy is the easy one, since Diddy players are generally very aggressive and his projectiles don't have incredible range. You can nab him with Flamethrower right as he approaches, and that move will eat up his banana peel and give you the edge.

Don't let Diddy grab you. This can be a pain because of Diddy's speed and banana peels, but try to be tricky with your Flamethrower and avoid relying on shield too much.

Try to keep Diddy off stage. Diddy Kong puts a lot of pressure on Zard, but you can try to deal with this by keeping the pressure on Diddy. Whenever Diddy is off stage, he can't grab you or set up combos with his banana peel. This is where you use your grab range to keep him off stage. His side special will make this annoying, to try to read his attacks.

Keep in mind though that I don't have a whole lot of experience and most of my advice is theoretical. I have a pocket DIddy, so I'm just imagining these matches in my head. This is more of me just me brainstorming and throwing ideas around.
Maybe I should invite a Diddy or two to a match and test this stuff out.
 

J0A0B

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#4
I have a brother who has mained Diddky since Brawl. It's his top used and he never really exploited the Hoo-hah gimmick much, but he can attempt it if he feels its necessary and not obvious. I could convince him to fight against me to test our match-ups. If we do practice, are there any strategies from either side you want us to try to analyze results? Like edge guarding tactics or priority in aerials?

Keep in mind that neither of us are pros, so I hope whatever research we may collect is acceptable despite our lack of knowledge in AT.
 
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-LzR-

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#5
You can just play and share your feelings on what moves are effective in certain situations, how to edgeguard Diddy, how to recover against Diddy and if there are some cool setups against him. Anything that comes to mind and we will discuss if we agree.
 

Charey

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#6
For edge guarding Diddy a flamethrower gimp can almost outright kill them if they try to recover low if they don't react fast to the jetpack falling off, and even react if they do it should be an easy dair spike if you chase them off the edge.

If they recover high it can be a bit more difficult but a fair should send them back out when they try to flip.
 

Davregis

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#7
imo Charizard feels much like Claw from USFIV in that he needs to pressure and space but is very vulnerable should a faster opponent actually get in. However, Charizard has somewhat better escape mechanisms than Vega and due to mechanics usually can't get put into these massive combo strings after ~60%

All that taken, as everyone knows Charizard's first priority is to not get combo'd and to get back in neutral quickly after being combo'd, and that Diddy and Sheik are exceptionally well at getting in combos. Does Charizard have the tools to prevent Diddy and Sheik from getting in?

With Dragon Rush, the matchup might be even-- Charizard has great pressure tools and Flamethrower (though it's definitely not safe against Sheik, even with good spacing), but right now it feels like Diddy and Sheik get better conversions easier and by extension give Charizard a rough time.
 
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DrChops

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#8
I've played several Diddy's and Sheiks in tournaments so I think I have a good idea of how the match up plays out.

Diddy Kong: I think Charizard fares better against Diddy than the majority of the roster. All of Diddy's specials can be easily countered with Charizard's specials: the peanut gun is useless against flamethrower and flare blitz, the jet pack is gimped with a flamethrower edge guard, the banana is destroyed with fire and his side-b can be stopped with all of Charizard's specials. The key to fighting Diddy as Zard is to bait him to use a projectile, whether it be a banana or peanut, then hitting him with a flare blitz. I would NOT use dragon rush in this fight just because it is so important to super armor through projectiles and land punishes. When you see him reach for a banana or peanut gun FLARE BLITZ. Keep your spacing and use your jabs to ward off the Dthrow. Diddy still has the edge, but not by as much as people think. 6-4 Diddy advantage

Sheik: This is a terrible match up for Zard. A good Sheik will body Zard all day long and not allow for Zard to space. Diddy players like to use the banana (sometimes peanut gun) which gives Charizard space. Sheik players tend to not lean on their needles as much, which is bad news for Charizard. Dragon rush and rock hurl help Charizard tremendously in this fight, so bring those with you if you don't have a good secondary character to switch to. This is one of those fight where Sheik will do 160% to you while you only do 80% to her but land the big hit (fly, flare blitz, DSmash, USmash, Bair) to get the kill. Use Rock Smash/Rock Hurl, jab and grab often. I'd give this one to Sheik 8-2.
 

Steeler

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#9
^ that's a pretty good insight into both matchups. I do think that Dragon Rush still goes through both Diddy projectiles though. Both are destroyed by regular attacks, I don't see any reason why DR wouldn't work. DR is also faster than FB at starting up, which gives you more of an opportunity to punish at range.
 

Swamp Sensei

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#10
Sheik just wrecks poor Zard, although you can take advantage of an aggressive comboer with Rock Smash or Fly if you're given enough space.

Diddy's Hoo Haas are problematic, but overall, Zard's heavy enough to tank it. Flame thrower shuts down a lot of Diddy's approach options and can gimpy him relatively easily.
 

-LzR-

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#11
I have absolutely no experience with Diddy Kong so there is nothing for me to do add.

I can say what little I know of Sheik:

Her offensive pressure is tough to deal with. Once Sheik gets in it's going to hurt, a lot. We get combo'd for days and uair is a pain to deal with.
Our goal in this matchup should be to trade often. We can't really beat Sheik so we might as well trade. Every trade is an advantage to us. This is one of those matchups where Sheik will just complete wreck your face all the time but you still kill her without any effort while they struggle to finish you off.
For this reason smart use of rocksmash is recommended.
Used Flare Blitz against fully charged needles, other than that the move should be avoided unless you are absolutely sure you think it's worth it.

For customs, I would go with Rock Hurl. We need frame 1 super armor to get out of Sheik strings. Dragon Rush is obviously recommended. The other customs, as usual, are irrelevant.

The matchup is clearly in Sheiks favor, but it's not something we completely struggle with.
 

Swamp Sensei

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#12
I must say.

Flare Blitz works surprisingly well on Diddy.
 

-LzR-

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#14
Would love to help, unfortunately the last time I heard of a Greninja was in 1.0 so I have nothing to offer.
 

-LzR-

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#15
Shameless double post:
I am supposed to update this soon, but I will be moving this weekend so I will be too busy for that. There hasn't been too much activity yet, but I have my hopes up! Try to squeeze every little thing you know about these 2 matchups while we are still discussing them!
Also thanks to whoever it was who stickied the thread. (Swampasaur?)
 

Zachmac

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#16
Watch out for Sheik's needle's while recovering.
They're more then fast enough to hit your Flare Blitz on start up, so try to recover low if at all possible.
 

-LzR-

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#17
Watch out for Sheik's needle's while recovering.
They're more then fast enough to hit your Flare Blitz on start up, so try to recover low if at all possible.
What will happen if you Dragon Rush into a needle? Do they cancel each other and make you stop?
 

Zachmac

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#18
We'll have to test that. I usually play in a no customs environment.

Translation; I'm a For Glory scrub.
 

Steeler

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#20
Pretty sure you clash. As long as it isn't transcendent, you will clash. I have clashed with Fireballs and Lasers and **** with this move.
 

charizardbro

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#21
As a For Glory scrub I've only ever ran into a couple of (seemingly) high octane Diddy Kongs and Sheiks but I got bodied. I have some thoughts and a couple of questions about the matchups.

Assuming the matchup allows you to use customs, I don't think you should be using Dragon Rush over Flare Blitz. Diddy and Sheik both can make Dragon Rush clash with their projectiles off stage and depending on how much, if any, forward momentum you maintain afterwards, they could gimp your recovery (do you get to keep any forward momentum?). Although they could still snipe you out of the beginning of the Flare Blitz animation, it at least offers you armor to soak up their projectiles while you get back to the stage if they don't throw them out early enough. I've heard that Dragon Rush is a lot safer than Flare Blitz is if you hit into a shield but I think there would still be enough lag time for faster characters like Diddy/Sheik to punish with, say, a grab, no?

For the Sheik matchup, Charizard is definitely going to eat a lot of percent from throw to fair(s) but that won't KO very well at all. I think a bigger problem arises in fthrow to bouncing fish and bouncing fish in general at KO percents. It won't work after 30-40% depending on DI but Charizard's air speed is so terrible that I think it would be hard to DI away from a bouncing fish even when it's not a true combo. Does Charizard's have any hope of striking first with fair or nair or will it be a trade? It also seems to me that an approach from the ground would work better on Sheik since our air options have a lot of lag and Sheik has good speed and a quick grab. And if Sheik wants to needle camp you'll have to approach and shield when the needles are thrown or try to catch Sheik napping with a flare blitz but be aware that the 'charging' of the needles shield cancels pretty quickly and the throwing animation isn't particularly slow either. I also remember seeing a video about Sheik getting meteor'd after using up special to get back to the ledge but before the ledge was actually grabbed. Is that still around or did it get patched out?

I've watched a lot of top level Diddy on youtube but I have had very few chances to play against one myself. The whole banana peel throw to grab thing can be avoided by shielding the banana peel longer than you need to in order to bait the grab follow up and then spot dodging the grab. Punish accordingly with some jabs or something. Then, I imagine, spot dodging mind games would happen (how much end lag does it even have?) and you will have to mix things up to avoid grabs. If Charizard is the one approaching, you might as well approach on the ground again so that you don't get banana peel'd during your long landing lag. But once Diddy has you in the air you're out of luck. Diddy has a ton of uair followups at lower percents and then bait the air dodge and punish at higher percents. Charizard should be looking to grab ledge to get out of those sort of combos but watch out for ledge trumps. I was also wondering if anyone could check if Charizard's fsmash can catch Diddy's side special recovery to the ledge. I know it can be done with Pikachu's fsmash. If Charizard can too then both of Diddy's low recovery options can be gimped/punished. Diddy could always recover high but that has its risks as well.

Armor moves can be used to get out of combos in both matchups but that's no easier than spot dodging to avoid the initial grabs that start the combos. It's hard being a heavy.
 

-LzR-

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#22
I will try to update the thread today if possible, but I'm going to a tournament today so I might not have the opportunity. If I can't do it today I will do it on Monday.

I played against a real Diddy Kong for the first time last night so I do have some things to add now.

Diddy:
The matchup is a big disadvantage, but it's far from hopeless, we just need to work really hard.
If you don't learn to grab Bananas with Z you are screwed. I still have my old habits from Brawl to try to instatoss the bananas or just catching them with a landing airdodge. Avoid getting grabbed at all costs as that is the worst thing that can happen in the matchup. You will get combo'd for days if you fall for that grab. Be patient with your landing. If you have the chance use Dragon Rush to re position yourself.
Don't try to challenge his Fair, you will not succeed.
Pivot grab and pivot Ftilt are very useful in this matchup.
My mentality in the matchup is to try to get him off the ground as much as I can. When Diddy is on the ground we have strong options such as Uair, Usmash, Utilt, upB and Bair to beat whatever Diddy tries to land with.
Our advantage in this matchup is the edgeguarding advantage, we are better at edgeguarding Diddy than they are edgeguarding us.
A well timed upB will armor through whatever is thrown at you an safely grabs the ledge. Just be careful with ledgetrump Bair. To counter that immediately perform a get up attack as you grab the ledge.

Pros:
-We are much heavier than Diddy. Unless you get grabbed you should live for a long time.
-We edgeguard Diddy well. A Flamethrower over the ledge is really strong in this matchup, not to mention a carefully aimed spike.
-Super armor is very helpful against silly Uair strings.
-We can kill Diddy very early with a good read while they have to work hard for it.

Cons:
-It's hard to keep up with Diddys speed, they will be in control of the match most of the time.
-Getting grabbed is awful.
-Fair will beat almost everything you do
-It's very hard to land safely

As my ratio I give it a -2/65:35 in Diddys favor.
 

Dre89

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#23
Some of the Diddy info is wrong. For example flamethrower should never stop a nana. A good Diddy won't throw it from a distance where you have time to get it out and space it. He's going to do it up close with a JC toss, where it won't be safe for you to try catch the nana off your shield. Or he'll use it to catch your landing, or if you're on a platform above him.

Because you're so much slower than Diddy, pretty much every hit you get in neutral has to be a hard read. You have to guess what he'll do in advance. If you mispredict you're probably taking at least 30%.

The main thing Zard has is that he can gimp Diddy, that's it really.
 

Smog Frog

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#24
we're not that much slower than diddy. while diddy does have monkey flip, he has similarly atrocious airspeeds(charizard sits at 43rd while diddy kong is tied with link at 41st/42nd) while we have a faster dash speed(our 8th compared to his 13th). yeah diddy is overall more mobile by virtue of monkey flip, but its not bad to the point where you have to make hard reads just to get damage. people should really study character attributes before you talk about those attributes being a key factor in the matchup.
 

-LzR-

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#25
we're not that much slower than diddy. while diddy does have monkey flip, he has similarly atrocious airspeeds(charizard sits at 43rd while diddy kong is tied with link at 41st/42nd) while we have a faster dash speed(our 8th compared to his 13th). yeah diddy is overall more mobile by virtue of monkey flip, but its not bad to the point where you have to make hard reads just to get damage. people should really study character attributes before you talk about those attributes being a key factor in the matchup.
Perhaps you should take another look at Diddy Kong. Are you really saying we are similarly fast? Speed also means moves. Diddy has no lag, we have years of lag. If we could autocancel everything we would be quite fast I agree but that's not the reality of things.
 

Smog Frog

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#26
oh, if we're talking frame data, zard is just average while diddy is top 5. yeah diddy wins in frame data.

edit: can we talk about predictions of what our mu spread will be similar to?
 
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-LzR-

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#27
oh, if we're talking frame data, zard is just average while diddy is top 5. yeah diddy wins in frame data.

edit: can we talk about predictions of what our mu spread will be similar to?
Feel free to discuss that, but please keep this thread to discussing our matchup against Diddy Kong and Sheik only.
 

Steeler

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#28
I think the spread will be about neutral, probably skewed slightly negatively because of top tiers. Zard is very hard to kill for some characters. Flamethrower is really strong.
 

Smog Frog

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#29
i feel he's gonna have a spread similar to brawl ike(his only matchups that are worse than -1 are MK and olimar) sheik's gonna be the mk, and i feel zero suit will be the olimar. thoughts?
 

-LzR-

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#30
i feel he's gonna have a spread similar to brawl ike(his only matchups that are worse than -1 are MK and olimar) sheik's gonna be the mk, and i feel zero suit will be the olimar. thoughts?
I believe there will be some -2 on the toptiers and personally I believe Falcon is easily a -2, but otherwise I expect the majority of our matchups to be -1 with many even matchups. I expect there to be only a few advantages. Every matchup will end up as winnable without having to be a lot better than your opponent.
 

-LzR-

Smash Hero
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#31
Sorry for the long delay. I updated the OP with Diddy Kong and Sheik. I apologize that they are short, there wasn't much information to work with. If anyone has any recommendations for stages or anything else to add it's ok to still talk about it.

Next discussion will be about Zero Suit Samus and Yoshi. Hopefully this time we will get much more discussion going.
Think about how to recovery/edgeguard in the matchups, what are the biggest things to look out for, what stages to ban/counterpick and what the overall ratio is.

I am also still looking for an awesome Charizard picture in the OP.
 

Zachmac

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#32
Zero Suit...ugh, Zero Suit. She has all the tools to make Charizard a joke.
Her paralyzer and side special are excellent spacing tools that make her so much more difficult to approach and she can combo Zard into oblivion, which really makes it an uphill battle.

I think the only thing we've got on her is Flamethrower and Flare Blitz.
While I am generally agree Dragon Rush is better, I think Flare Blitz might be better for this matchup because of it's armor, which makes your much harder for her to gimp and can occasionally be used to approach if you get a hard read.
I am also still looking for an awesome Charizard picture in the OP.

...What? Too obvious? Okay.
 

Steeler

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#33
ZSS is impossible if she just plays as lame as possible. Flamethrower is literally a free Flip Kick because of its invincibility and range. Paralyzer puts you instantly in a disadvantageous situation. Jump and get ****ed, shield and hope she guesses your reaction wrong. Zard loses hard in the air and loses hard on the ground. 3-7 at least.

Yoshi is probably 4-6, he has an easier time killing you but you can armor a lot of his good crap and his grab game is atrocious. Don't directly challenge him too much. I would probably prefer Blitz in both these matchups, ZSS definitely and Yoshi much less so. DR is still a good way to carry Yoshi far and lets you quickly get in his face with an attack.
 

charizardbro

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#34
Oh hey. I used to main ZSS. The ZSS matchup is really awful.

Neutral isn't terrible for us but it isn't great either. Shield her projectiles and side special until you are too close for ZSS to use them safely. Spot dodge/punish the tethered grab when it is used carelessly. ZSS's Nair and Zair also autocancel (even fastfall'd ones) so Charizard's air approach looks less promising and shield grab timing is more strict.

Offensively, it's hard to fight ZSS offstage because of the tether and Flip Kick. This is especially problematic for Dair but if you do manage to land a Dair, ZSS will probably lose a stock since her vertical recovery isn't great. She can Flip Kick on over most of our other offstage options or outrange them with Zair. But, ZSS does not have particularly good options to hit opponents that are directly below her so you'll want to be under her to do the most damage. ZSS's Nair has a weird (slanted, right?) hitbox that won't hit opponents that are below but behind her so use that to your advantage. She has pretty much no options for hitting you when you're below her but be ready to cover Flip Kick landings since it is usually a really good/safe escape option for ZSS. ZSS's Dair also has a ton of landing lag but you really shouldn't be seeing her use it at all. You can get a lot of mileage out of spotdodging the grabs of particularly grab-happy ZSS players but the safer ones that stick to projectiles and disjointed options (Nair, Zair, Usmash, and side special) will be a lot harder to rack up percent on. Your best KO options for the matchup are probably Uair/tilt/smash and Dthrow. You might be able to score a KO using flare blitz if you read a charged paralyzer shot. Flamethrower edge guards for a little extra % should work fine but ZSS can read that with a Flip Kick for some damage so can be a bit of a mindgame.

Defensively, it's really a nightmare. The Dthrow to up special combo is cake for ZSS against bigger/heavier characters, even at higher percents. I would appreciate it if someone could test how it works with DI and stuff at various percents but it was a true combo for me in training mode and it killed when I was near the ledge while charizard was at 86% (pre-grab) on FD. Dthrow to U/F/Bair is also a pain but Charizard should be able to tank quite a few Uairs and Fairs before finally being KO'd by one. Do not DI the Dthrow toward (iirc) ZSS at higher percents. That's how you get Bair'd and lose a stock. As for getting out of combos, the ledge is probably going to be a good option but ledge trump Bair is a thing so watch out for that too. I don't think it is particularly better to recover high/low specifically against ZSS as long as you are out of range of her Flip Kick spike (just don't be horizontal with the stage, go above or below). Save your jumps until just before you land if you try to land on stage because Usmash will outrange any Nair you want to land with and the tether grab has surprisingly good range. Charizard's second and third jumps may be small but they can get you out of range of these options well enough.

It's the kind of matchup where the opponent won't kill early (barring the odd Uspecial or Dspecial near ledge) and Charizard will win and lose the game trying to read things while the opponent looks for the kill. I'd give it a solid -2. -3 if the ZSS player favors disjointed options heavily. Definitely not unwinnable, especially if Charizard can get some good reads or catch ZSS without her Flip Jump, but ZSS has way too many quick and safe options for Charizard imo.
 

Steeler

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#35
What is the best way to DI up B? I heard that slow fallers should hold up. Not sure how reliable it is for Zard. Landing kills in this matchup is hard as ****.
 

Swamp Sensei

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#36
Okay, this is actually a really interesting match up that I know quite a bit about.

ZSS: :4zss:

Some notes.
Flare Blitz does plow through any Paralyzer but only use it if she's actually charging and you know you're close. Too far and she'll shield.
Plasma Wire will stop Rock Smash DEAD IN ITS TRACKS. It won't hurt, but it will clash. Charizard will actually drop the rock.
Flip Jump is tricky, but Fly can destroy it with a good read. The fact that you can straight up counter this is a great mental tool as it can intimidate.
Up B we just have to tank or Rock Smash if you can.
Her grab makes me cry.
She combos us quite well.


ZSS is quite the hard character for Zard. She's fast, combos well, has an annoying projectile and has a ton of range. Fighting her seems impossible at first, but you do actually have some tool to counter her strategies. This is a matchup where you're really gonna need to rely on your weight to keep you alive. Mind games and the intimidation factor are what you need. You have incredibly powerful killing tools and ZSS has average recovery. You need to make her fear you.

Customs:
Fly and Rock Smash/Rock Hurl are probably best for those options.

Dragon Rush will get you nowhere here. You don't have enough Super Armor to deal with most of her attacks and in this matchup, you're going to have to challenge her straight on.

Flamethrower is interesting... It's nearly useless in neutral but gimps ZSS so well. I'm thinking Flare Cannon will be more useful in neutral due to its range. Depends on what you want to do I guess.

Yoshi: :4yoshi:

Much easier. Though I don't have too much experience with him.

He can be pretty gimapable sometimes, but he can combo well and in the air, he's a speedy little guy.

I feel that using Charizard's range should help with this.

Overall, it should be pretty easy.
 

Smog Frog

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#37
eh yoshis winnable but zss is the matchup where i would pull out a secondary. zss and sheik are the matchups where it pays to have a diddy(or a sonic in my case).
 

Zachmac

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#38
You have incredibly powerful killing tools and ZSS has average recovery. You need to make her fear you.
That's the problem though.
Metroid is a pretty cool guy. He kills aliens and doesn't afraid of anything.

I feel like 99% of the time, it's us Charizards who will be scared of Zamus. She just pressures us so hard.
With most characters, you could just try to get them in the air, and you have the advantage, especially with Zard's fancy Up Special. With Zamus, getting her into the air is just difficult...then again, getting anything done is difficult.
 

-LzR-

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#40
I don't have much real experience against Lucinas, but if it's fine to you I can come over to theory craft as much as I can and we'll see where it goes.
 
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