Charizard Matchup Thread WEEK3: Captain Falcon & Donkey Kong

-LzR-

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#81
I have no problem having those 2 if people have something to say. I have absolutely no experience against those character so I wouldn't be able to contribute anything but theorycraft.
 

Steeler

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#82
So, some new Yoshi tech... You know how we rely on nair a lot to protect us in the air? Yoshi can literally just jump into it and then hit us with an aerial for free. Telling you guys... This matchup is terrible. Anyone who thinks Yoshi isn't at LEAST top 10 doesn't know squat.
 
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#84
So, some new Yoshi tech... You know how we rely on nair a lot to protect us in the air? Yoshi can literally just jump into it and then hit us with an aerial for free. Telling you guys... This matchup is terrible. Anyone who thinks Yoshi isn't at LEAST top 10 doesn't know squat.
It's not double jump armour is it? Because that's not new.
 
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#85
So, some new Yoshi tech... You know how we rely on nair a lot to protect us in the air? Yoshi can literally just jump into it and then hit us with an aerial for free. Telling you guys... This matchup is terrible. Anyone who thinks Yoshi isn't at LEAST top 10 doesn't know squat.
Charizard has that problem against a lot of characters. Priority on Nair is bad.
 

-LzR-

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#86
Charizard has that problem against a lot of characters. Priority on Nair is bad.
Pretty much. Nair loses to everything and it's a free punish on shield unless you land it well spaced on the last possible frame or something. Charizard is so bad, I wish we got more buffs. Even when we are supposed to be a killing machine we still kill worse than super fast and safe characters like Falcon and Zss.
 

Steeler

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#87
Yeah it is just double jump armor. But I had never seen anyone purposely jump into an attack and punish it on hit before. Yoshi doesn't even need to space an aerial on us!! My friend did it on a whim... Zard is pretty free to Yoshi in the air, and now our best aerial gets armored into a free uair kill. Dumb dumb dumb dumb
 
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#88
Pretty much. Nair loses to everything and it's a free punish on shield unless you land it well spaced on the last possible frame or something. Charizard is so bad, I wish we got more buffs. Even when we are supposed to be a killing machine we still kill worse than super fast and safe characters like Falcon and Zss.
Have to disagree on the killing. We have no problem closing out stocks.

Our trouble is getting them to KO percent in the first place :ohwell:
 

-LzR-

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#89
Yeah it is just double jump armor. But I had never seen anyone purposely jump into an attack and punish it on hit before. Yoshi doesn't even need to space an aerial on us!! My friend did it on a whim... Zard is pretty free to Yoshi in the air, and now our best aerial gets armored into a free uair kill. Dumb dumb dumb dumb
That's a Yoshi tech from like 15 years ago. It's one of the reasons Yoshi isn't a bad character in the older games even with that terrible shield.
 

Steeler

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#90
Ok, yes, I've known he gets double jump armor in every game. But I (and probably most people) did not realize how applicable it is to the matchup. No one has really mentioned it before and it negates our best defensive aerial.
 

Ffamran

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#91

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#92
Captain Falcon, huh? My friend mains Falcon, so I can help with that.

I'll start with the bad stuff. The matchup for us is... Unfavorable, to say the least. Falcon is just too fast to handle. As much as you would like to punish a whiffed dash grab with a smash, you can't. Falcon almost always has time to shield or roll away, so for punishes, you need to rely on grabs and reading his defensive options.

Obviously Zard is a master of being comboed, and the Cap is no stranger to taking advantage of that. When you're inevitably being thrown around, don't try to airdodge out, as it only leads to Falcon hitting you with a more dangerous move. Wait until he's out of jumps and forced to land and fastfall back to the ground, where you can more easily deal with him. Ultimately, if you just let him throw out some nairs and uairs, he gets some damage off; he can only kill you if you set yourself up for it.

Now, the knee is something you have to look out for. I'm not sure how obvious it is to people who aren't familiar with the matchup, but I immediately know when a Falcon is about to knee. This is the part where you tell him no. Rock smash that ****. Even a sweet spotted knee is nothing to rock smash. He puts himself in the perfect position to take the full 30%, and now he's above you. (Or dead, depending on his position and damage.) Even better, use rock hurl for this matchup. Frame one super armor and aerial coverage is a pretty good exception to the "let yourself get comboed" rule.

Flamethrower is a great tool in this matchup. (And every other matchup.) If you need to take a breather, just hit B. This is one of the only times when you have a natural advantage over Falcon. He can't run through it, and running at you is basically the only option he has. He will jump now. Falcon mains aren't patient people. As soon as he leaves the ground, release B and select the punish of greatest effectiveness. If you think he'll hit you before you have a chance to do anything, just shieldgrab. Uptilt, rock hurl, and even fly will work otherwise. Our frame six upsmash will do the trick best.

Flamethrower is, as we all know, great for edgeguarding too. This is especially true for Falcon. Angling this down over the edge can cause KOs if Falcon doesn't mash upB. The only problem there is that flamethrower runs out. The optimal place to stand is right where flamethrower doesn't go over the ledge, but rather hits the stage and goes horizontal, so falcon has to snap to the ledge. Now, all of his getup options are impossible, save for rolling. That's very easily punished with a smash or even fly.

In terms of sideB options, you should use dragon rush. (Although it's hilarious when you predict an approach and Falcon runs right into a blast burn.) We all know dragon rush's benefits, so I won't go over those, but backthrow into dragon rush (is that a true combo at 0% on Falcon? Can someone confirm or deconfirm that?) is great for carrying falcon offstage, and you can even use a bair and still recover. You don't really want to go offstage besides that, however. (Unless you're a cool kid and like going for spikes.) Falcon's offstage options are just too good for a character like Charizard to handle

Other than that, just use a lot of SH nairs, jabs, and dtilts. Your goal is to stop Falcon from getting up in your grill. I don't know how the exact matchup ratio is decided, so if someone more experienced could figure that out, that would be cool.

EDIT for 1.0.8: It's important to note that Captain Falcon is a fastfaller, and you may need to get him to higher percents than normal to dthrow combo him. He will most likely try to fastfall and/or airdodge to the ground, so don't just follow up with aerials, mix it up with grabs or smash attacks.
 
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Lukingordex

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#93
This matchup is terrible. Anyone who thinks Yoshi isn't at LEAST top 10 doesn't know squat.
This matchup is terrible because Charizard is the type of character that Yoshi tends to destroy (not very fast in the air and big), it has nothing to do with Yoshi being good or not :laugh:

Also by that logic every Yoshi main in the Yoshi boards doesn't know squat
 
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-LzR-

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#96
Oh, yeah, right. I completely forgot about this thread sorry. I have completely quit competitive Smash recently so I haven't been too active. I might keep doing this but if someone else wants to take over I have no objections. Just tell me who you want to discuss.
 
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#97
Have any of you versed a good DeDeDe? The match up is horrible for Charizard DeDeDe can easily jab,grab him, and because Charizard is large DeDeDe can easily hit him with his Smash attacks.
 

Steeler

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#98
If you are less patient than the DDD then yes, it's not good. Stand outside of his ftilt range. You can still tap him with Flamethrower but he can't safely throw a Gordo. You also are way more mobile than he is.
 
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#99
DeDeDe will just spam gordo which for some reason I can't reflect for the life of me, If I do reflect it DeDeDe will just block it, Once DeDeDe grabs me I will take 30% or more depending on how many hits I take, his Foward smash always hits me as I try to recover the gordos are very hard to reflect as Charizard I have a similar problem with Bowser too same thing, but I think Bowser has more options than Charizard.
 
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MintyBreeze

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I think this MU thread is relatively deserted and needs to function in a different way. Instead of having one central thread for every MU, why not create a thread for each character to be discussed, letting that fight be focused on much more than if it were just one part; and have that thread open to be added to, so that discussion can continue if someone would like to add to it?

Having a system like this encourages quick run downs of each MU, but in my eyes, these types of threads are designed to help with specific MUs. Once discussion of a character was relatively finished, it would be posted to a new central thread, which like the very first message of this one, gives a brief summary of each fight. In that summary, below everything else, would be a link to the original thread discussing that character. If someone wanted in-depth information, they could visit it themselves and potentially apply it to their gameplay.

Not only would a system of threads instead of just one help visitors much more than having to surf through a massive string of messages, it would encourage interaction with other character forums (who would have a thread dedicated to the fight with their character, making it much easier for them to give their opinions) and generally separate the most important MUs for Charizard from the least important, by the number of posts for each thread. That way, contributors would be able to give their thoughts on the fights they thought were most important, instead of being bogged down by a weekly analysis like this.

Now, is it true that this would take a lot of work? Yes. But truth be told, this thread hasn't even reached 100 messages in 1/3 of a year. A system like this would definitely encourage discussion much more than a collection of discussions, or a summary without any input or analysis, and the increased discussion with other threads would help Charizard get more recognition.

(An example of this type of thread would be the R.O.B boards MU threads. All of them are separate, so that discussion of each can continue even if the most recent thread is up, but unlike many other threads, there isn't a summary of each MU. Why not mix the best of both into a system that helps everyone?)
 

Steeler

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Great idea. And players that have something to contribute to only a few matchups don't have to wait to do so. I can make the threads if no one else is up to it. Working on a first post summary template, will edit it in soon.
 
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MintyBreeze

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Awww... Thank you, but I'd think a general consensus among the Charizards would be needed first... Maybe there could also be a poll to vote for which characters to focus on next, too? I'm not saying this should be made right here and right now. I'll go ahead and look at some of the other boards for summary templates.

The Jigglypuff MU thread had an interesting part of their summaries, of Notable quotes from people who took part in the discussion. If someone mentions a point no one brought up, or summarizes the fight nicely, it could be featured in the main summary as a supplement. Maybe each section could have a series of quotes? Since these are in spoilers, they can be as long as necessary.

In the Bowser Jr. boards, they had a general format of what posts in the discussion should usually contain:
  • Strengths
  • Weaknesses
  • Combo potential
  • Off-stage capabilities
  • Good/bad custom movesets
  • Opinions
  • Overall score
Now, not to say that every post should be made exactly following this format... But on their part, it was a good idea, and definitely seemed to encourage discussion, seen within the posts for that thread.
http://smashboards.com/threads/bows...p-discussion-discussing-shulk-matchup.394727/

This particular thread has a good example of how having multiple threads for specific matches helps, and how to react to other character boards input on a MU.
http://smashboards.com/threads/r-o-b-matchup-analysis-16-pac-man.401047/
Notice how many posts there are by the mains of the other character? If it were just one collective MU thread, I'm sure there wouldn't be nearly as many.
 
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-LzR-

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Are we making a new thread, or rearranging this one? Before anything else, we need to know that.
A lot has changed so I think we might as well start from a scratch. We will make a new thread for a new MU whenever it feels like a good time and I will make a new MU thread that will be a directory that links to all the matchups threads and is the one that should be stickied.
Do you agree with this one?
 

MintyBreeze

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That sounds perfect to me! Although, I was wondering if there could be a poll system to choose which MU it was each time? It's up to the community, honestly.

I agree. There just need to be updates whenever a new MU thread is made in the directory.
 

-LzR-

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I don't know if a poll is necessary. We could go with a system where a certain matchup can be requested and then a new thread will be added. As there are a lot of characters in the game it's not so bad even if we end having a lot of threads in a short time as long as we don't go crazy with it. If you have any more nice suggestions I'm all ears.
 

MintyBreeze

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Not a bad idea. Usually the most popular threads have the most difficult MUs, and that's what people come here in the first place for. It'd be nice to have threads for the whole cast, but having requests would get the most "important" characters out of the way first. Still, I think the request should have an explanation as to why they want it to be looked at, and how it would help other Charizards.

I just think we should post a limit on the amount of threads that come out in a week, but leave each thread open to posting in case someone wants to add to it... If a summary or discussion feels incomplete, maybe it could be marked as unfinished on the start of the summary to encourage adding to it?

I think that the very first match up should be Charizard vs Charizard. In it, we'd sum up Charizard's strengths and weaknesses as a character, to make a general reference for the next matchups.
 

MintyBreeze

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I don't know if a poll is necessary. We could go with a system where a certain matchup can be requested and then a new thread will be added. As there are a lot of characters in the game it's not so bad even if we end having a lot of threads in a short time as long as we don't go crazy with it. If you have any more nice suggestions I'm all ears.
What about the overviews (not summaries, those come at the end) of each matchup? Should there be a new format, to make it more detailed, or should it stay the same?

In each one, it would be nice to have a summary of the character Charizard is up against. Their history as a character first, what they're like gameplay-wise second, and of course, what this means for Charizard.
Having a link to the boards of each character, too, would be nice.
Even if you HATE fighting a specific character, being able to see their own struggles and thoughts on their boards would give you a bit of preparation for the matchup, and some more respect for the people playing them in general. Hating on characters is fine, but it's too far when it extends to mains.

Props to them, the Ganondorf boards have great insights on each matchup, and all of the ideas above are pulled from their boards. Not only does each detail the other character's options, such as their range, follow-ups on grabs, and what they'll likely do as the percents rise, but it lists video examples of the matchup and credits the users who took part in the matchup discussion, instead of quotes.
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-dark-arts-of-ganon-match-up-discussion-current-diddy-kong.373934/
It's very Ganondorf centric, but that's a good thing. What are some points about Charizard that should be considered when talking about his matchup against any character?
 
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MintyBreeze

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Yeah. To be honest, I think each match-up should be reevaluated to see if this would be more effective or not. It'd certainly be better for adjusting to patches. If a character is heavily changed, then a discussion can be made about them. Diddy Kong is relevant, and would be a good example of this, soooo I think it would also be good to start on.
 
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I've played several Diddy's and Sheiks in tournaments so I think I have a good idea of how the match up plays out.

Diddy Kong: I think Charizard fares better against Diddy than the majority of the roster. All of Diddy's specials can be easily countered with Charizard's specials: the peanut gun is useless against flamethrower and flare blitz, the jet pack is gimped with a flamethrower edge guard, the banana is destroyed with fire and his side-b can be stopped with all of Charizard's specials. The key to fighting Diddy as Zard is to bait him to use a projectile, whether it be a banana or peanut, then hitting him with a flare blitz. I would NOT use dragon rush in this fight just because it is so important to super armor through projectiles and land punishes. When you see him reach for a banana or peanut gun FLARE BLITZ. Keep your spacing and use your jabs to ward off the Dthrow. Diddy still has the edge, but not by as much as people think. 6-4 Diddy advantage

Sheik: This is a terrible match up for Zard. A good Sheik will body Zard all day long and not allow for Zard to space. Diddy players like to use the banana (sometimes peanut gun) which gives Charizard space. Sheik players tend to not lean on their needles as much, which is bad news for Charizard. Dragon rush and rock hurl help Charizard tremendously in this fight, so bring those with you if you don't have a good secondary character to switch to. This is one of those fight where Sheik will do 160% to you while you only do 80% to her but land the big hit (fly, flare blitz, DSmash, USmash, Bair) to get the kill. Use Rock Smash/Rock Hurl, jab and grab often. I'd give this one to Sheik 8-2.
Plus like skeik players will try to stay close so you can out of shield fly catching them off guard and taking a stock
 

MintyBreeze

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If I knew anything about the Diddy Kong match-up, I would try to add something, but sadly I do not. Is Charizard able to Flare Blitz fast enough to him at a consistent range, or do you have to read them?

Besides, I don't think Diddy's would be so obvious with their bananas to the point you could constantly Flare Blitz them. From what I've heard, they like to take out their bananas from a safe distance, and get in close to throw them with relative safety. Aside from that, though, I really have nothing else to say except that we're a big target.

What other match-ups would you all like to see next?
 
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