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Charizard changes 1.0.8

Shog

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Is it know that FAir has less ending lag/better "cancel window"? Test it out: Fullhop Fair, Shorthop Fair -> No ending lag(or really, really really small atleast)

Also Charizards first jump from the GROUND goes a little bit higher. I noticed that while playing on Duck Hunt. Just fulljump to see the effect
 

Grizzlpaw

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no stop

jump and fair are the same
Normally I wouldn't argue with a mod / senator, but for the sake of not spreading false-information (Being able to rely on fair for spacing against short characters is a huge deal for char) I'm going to go ahead and say that hitting pikachu with auto cancel Fair is possible.

I'm doing it in Training mode right now, the spacing isn't really that strict.

...Unless what you're trying to say is that it's possible to hit him with fair in the unpatched version too :/ If so I'm dum.

:006:
 
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Banjo-Kazooie

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Based Sakurai I thank you for the Charizard buffs. No more high risking it with Flare Blitz or hard reading for KOs. Been having lots of fun and good results in FG (though I still expect getting Stone Edge'd by the rushdown top tier and combo happy characters when I go to my local scene this Saturday).
Having said that. Im already thinking some ideas for 1.0.9 buffs.
 

Grizzlpaw

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Patch 1.0.9

Add in a "Blaze" Mechanic! Charizard's Fire moves (including his sweet spots) deal much more damage and knockback at high %'s

Adjust the knock back growth on flamethrower accordingly so that they don't immediately pop out of it.

Ftilt becomes a viable kill option at high %

Charcario confirmed :006:
 
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Coonce

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no stop

jump and fair are the same
Fair is one of those moves I always test out after each patch because of its deceiving visual effect compared to its hitbox. My test usually consists of: Can I hit a standing Kirby with a short hop fair and auto-cancel it? I haven't been able to do this until now. Granted, the spacing is very specific, but it does hit and auto-cancel. I pick Kirby because he is the shortest standing character out of the entire cast. You mentioned not being able to hit a Pikachu like this, but you can. Just try it out and don't Roy zone it.
 

Swoops

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Changes from Thinkaman in the main patch thread :D
Lucas, Roy, Ryu (1.0.8) Community Patch Notes [17th 19:30]
Charizard
---------
Jab1
hitbox 0
wkb 15 -> 26

hitbox 1 + 2
wkb 10 -> 22
transition to jab2
frame 10 -> 9

Jab2
transition to jab3
frame 10 -> 9

Jab3
all hitboxes
kbg 110 -> 130

Fair
hitbox 0
size 4.3 -> 4.6
x 7.0 -> 7.5
delayed hitbox 0
kbg 98 -> 97
size 4.5 -> 4.8
z 7.0 -> 7.5
hitboxes removed on frame 12-> 13 (total duration 4 -> 5)

Uthrow
throwbox 0 (launching component of throw)
angle 60 -> 70
kbg 160 -> 220

Dthrow
throwbox 0 (launching component of throw)
angle 361 -> 70
kbg 300 -> 130
bkb 40 -> 70



Yay :)
 
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KuroganeHammer

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That explains why it wasn't hitting lol.

Basically it got a bit more range for less hitbox duration and an insignificant knockback nerf.
 

Shog

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I failed with the jump: I had speed equipment T__T

But Fair is changed, knew it (and lotsa other people...)
 

Coonce

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These changes have me super excited. After watching a few matches and seeing Charizard rack up damage from down throws and then destroy stocks at stupid early percents, I am very optimistic about Charizard's competitive future. He might still be lacking tools to help his neutral game, but that's the only thing I see him lacking right now.
 

SirJuicius

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That explains why it wasn't hitting lol.

Basically it got a bit more range for less hitbox duration and an insignificant knockback nerf.
I don't mind that at all. In fact, I think this is perfect for Charizard. I was playing a 2v2 match last night (I'll try to post vids in the video thread - I hope I can get some constructive analysis) on Kalos League and I fair'd Ganondorf three times off-stage, pushing him toward the KO zone while being able to get back. The reduced knockback might actually be something beneficial to Charizard because before the patch, it was hard - for me at least - to land consecutive fairs off stage without risking being KO'd
 

Dudde

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I Knew something was a bit different about Forward air. I was landing it way more consistently in matches. But are we sure no other aerials were tweaked?
 

Charey

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I just realized how silly castle seige will be with the new patch.
 

ShadyWolfe

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I just realized how silly castle seige will be with the new patch.
Pretty good stage for him and it is easy to jank people out on it but the flat transformation is bad for Zard.

These changes have me super excited. After watching a few matches and seeing Charizard rack up damage from down throws and then destroy stocks at stupid early percents, I am very optimistic about Charizard's competitive future. He might still be lacking tools to help his neutral game, but that's the only thing I see him lacking right now.
He seems pefect for mid tier or at least upper low tier which is a lot better position than last patch. Zard has more problems than neutral. Below average frame data, heavy with bad air mobility, below average recovery, and combo food.

Based Sakurai I thank you for the Charizard buffs. No more high risking it with Flare Blitz or hard reading for KOs. Been having lots of fun and good results in FG (though I still expect getting Stone Edge'd by the rushdown top tier and combo happy characters when I go to my local scene this Saturday).
Having said that. Im already thinking some ideas for 1.0.9 buffs.
I just want air mobility and jumps that actually go somewhere.

I think we can safely say char is the best heavy now <3

:006:

Now if you'll excuse me, I'ma go cry
Wario and R.O.B are better while Bowser and King Dedede are debatable.
 
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Coonce

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He seems pefect for mid tier or at least upper low tier which is a lot better position than last patch. Zard has more problems than neutral. Below average frame data, heavy with bad air mobility, below average recovery, and combo food.
I agree with most of what you said, but I don't think Charizard has a bad recovery. Unless there's something I don't know about, trying to challenge a flare blitz or dragon rush off stage is dangerous. Both have high priority and one has super armor. And if Charizard is recovering low, fly has a lot of priority and startup invincibility. It's not a great recovery in terms of distance and flexibility, but I think it's good due to being hard to challenge.

And as for being combo food, I don't think that's as big of an issue considering the continuing spread of marthritis.
 

ShadyWolfe

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I agree with most of what you said, but I don't think Charizard has a bad recovery. Unless there's something I don't know about, trying to challenge a flare blitz or dragon rush off stage is dangerous. Both have high priority and one has super armor. And if Charizard is recovering low, fly has a lot of priority and startup invincibility. It's not a great recovery in terms of distance and flexibility, but I think it's good due to being hard to challenge.

And as for being combo food, I don't think that's as big of an issue considering the continuing spread of marthritis.
I didn't say his recovery is bad just that it is just not great. Predictable albeit hard to punish unless opponent has access to projectiles and it can be easy to mess up. His recovery is in no way bad like Ganondorf but is just not that great like Shieks. We need to accept all the flaws of our character regardless of how small the flaw is if we want to advance the meta game sugarcoating will only harm us. What is Marthritis?
 

Coonce

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I didn't say his recovery is bad just that it is just not great. Predictable albeit hard to punish unless opponent has access to projectiles and it can be easy to mess up. His recovery is in no way bad like Ganondorf but is just not that great like Shieks. We need to accept all the flaws of our character regardless of how small the flaw is if we want to advance the meta game sugarcoating will only harm us. What is Marthritis?
Yeah, very true. And marthritis is a melee term to describe Marth's difficulty at killing when the opponent's percentage gets too high. In smash 4, a lot of high-tier characters seem to be getting their kill options nerfed resulting in a great combo game but a problem finishing out the stock. This applies to Sheik, Diddy, Pikachu, Sonic, and Luigi, maybe more.

All I can do is theorycraft right now since I'm not good enough to really go more than 2 wins and 2 losses at a local tournament. But I'm just optimistic that Charizard will become a force to reckon with. I may main Jigglypuff in all smash games, but Charizard is my favorite Pokemon. I want him to be relevant.
 

Grizzlpaw

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Wario and R.O.B are better while Bowser and King Dedede are debatable.
Eh, Wario and R.O.B are mid-heavy weight-ish. I'm talking about the REAL heavies. Bowser, D3, Ganon, DK, and Char.

People really oversell charizard's weaknesses. They're a problem, but they're not as bad as people make him out to be. First of all his recovery is not bad. Nor will I say it's "below average". A below average recovery in my opinion is something like Flacon UpB. or Rosalina's UpB because it's so easy to hit her out of it (yet no one does for some reason).

Charizard's recovery is fine. He'll rarely have trouble making it back to the stage. If he's getting gimped, it's becasue his opponent was good, not because charizard's recovery is bad. He's got an extra jump in the air to reposition himself to make getting the edgeguard more difficult. This means that if he thinks the enemy is going to drop down and challenge the later (unarmored) portions of his upB, he can throw off their timing and (problably) stage spike them with Fly for getting too greedy. He can double jump + Airdodge to get back near the ledge if the enemy is going for an aggressive edgeguard, then he's still got another jump before he's forced to recover. If he's not recovering low, flareblitz is a blazing fireball of death that none dare challenge. He can sweetspot the ledge with this, making his horizontal recovery one of the best.


His hitbox is actually much smaller than your typical super-heavy weight, and he has better tools for escaping juggles than Bowser, DK, or Ganon (I don't know much about D3). He has tools to mix up his landings. Rocksmash will stuff over-aggro juggle attempts.

His followup game is the best of any super heavyweight. He doesn't hit as hard as Ganon or Bowser, but he's got just enough of a combo game to make up for it.

Super heavy weights don't have amazing frame data by nature. We ain't sheik up in here.

He has one of the best kill throws in the game. This is a big deal vs faster characters like shiek, It lets us net the kill off of something as small as a shield grab (Char's shield grab is really good to boot). The top tiers have a habit of putting charizard into rage without really being able to take his stock off. Charizard was really good at abusing rage before. With this he's even scarier.

Yeah, his neutral game isn't the best, but we do at least have flamethrower and Dragon Rush (with customs) to help patch up that weakness. Considering that charizard gets access to so many tools that other super heavies don't get to have (multiple jumps, super armor landing option, mid range projectile that gimps half the cast for no reason) he's going to have to have some tradeoffs somewhere.

:006:
 
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ShadyWolfe

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Eh, Wario and R.O.B are mid-heavy weight-ish. I'm talking about the REAL heavies. Bowser, D3, Ganon, DK, and Char.

People really oversell charizard's weaknesses. They're a problem, but they're not as bad as people make him out to be. First of all his recovery is not bad. Nor will I say it's "below average". A below average recovery in my opinion is something like Flacon UpB. or Rosalina's UpB because it's so easy to hit her out of it (yet no one does for some reason).

Charizard's recovery is fine. He'll rarely have trouble making it back to the stage. If he's getting gimped, it's becasue his opponent was good, not because charizard's recovery is bad. He's got an extra jump in the air to reposition himself to make getting the edgeguard more difficult. This means that if he thinks the enemy is going to drop down and challenge the later (unarmored) portions of his upB, he can throw off their timing and (problably) stage spike them with Fly for getting too greedy. He can double jump + Airdodge to get back near the ledge if the enemy is going for an aggressive edgeguard, then he's still got another jump before he's forced to recover. If he's not recovering low, flareblitz is a blazing fireball of death that none dare challenge. He can sweetspot the ledge with this, making his horizontal recovery one of the best.


His hitbox is actually much smaller than your typical super-heavy weight, and he has better tools for escaping juggles than Bowser, DK, or Ganon (I don't know much about D3). He has tools to mix up his landings. Rocksmash will stuff over-aggro juggle attempts.

His followup game is the best of any super heavyweight. He doesn't hit as hard as Ganon or Bowser, but he's got just enough of a combo game to make up for it.

Super heavy weights don't have amazing frame data by nature. We ain't sheik up in here.

He has one of the best kill throws in the game. This is a big deal vs faster characters like shiek, It lets us net the kill off of something as small as a shield grab (Char's shield grab is really good to boot). The top tiers have a habit of putting charizard into rage without really being able to take his stock off. Charizard was really good at abusing rage before. With this he's even scarier.

Yeah, his neutral game isn't the best, but we do at least have flamethrower and Dragon Rush (with customs) to help patch up that weakness. Considering that charizard gets access to so many tools that other super heavies don't get to have (multiple jumps, super armor landing option, mid range projectile that gimps half the cast for no reason) he's going to have to have some tradeoffs somewhere.

:006:
If we are only talking about the super heavies than Charizard is definitely one of the best after this patch but I don't think we are better than Donkey Kong atm our metagame just isn't as developed as the Dong yet. I have no doubt that we will be having better times than Ganondorf and Bowser after this patch but King Dedede is debatable. Rock Smash, one of the best kill throws in the game, the best horizontal recovery in the game with a good vertical recovery, plenty of kill moves, fast jab that can go into fly, down throw combos and follow ups, a ranged move that can gimp, and rage advantage over top tiers puts the Zard above the other super heavies. Mew2King said in his stream that he has fun playing Charizard and that he will main him for EVO so we will have some representation from one of the best. Anyone know if Bloodcross is still playing Charizard?
 
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WingedKnight

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I'm veeerrrry interested to see what comes of the recent attention Charizard is drawing. The changes from this most recent patch are well-targeted and seriously beneficial. The follow-up Dthrow for damage and that glorious Uthrow for killing lend meaningful reliability to Zard's tanking gameplay. Fair also got a hitbox change, didn't it? His mobility didn't improve, and he's still a big target, but these new tools really improve his overall kit and actually give him a more coherent plan of attack. Certainly not going to take the metagame by storm, but I think his viability and public perception went up by at least a notch and a half. If M2K puts in some work with him alongside established Zards like Bloodcross it would be delicious.
 

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I actually don't want M2K to play Zard, I want Zard to be secretly decent.
 

Swamp Sensei

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I actually don't want M2K to play Zard, I want Zard to be secretly decent.
Well, his Zard is pretty mediocre regardless.

Still hasn't figured him out yet.
 

KuroganeHammer

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I played some Charizard at my locals last week, did pretty well in all the games I used him in. Feels solid.
 

dangeraaron10

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It's excellent to see Charizard climbing up in the game, even if it's not too terribly high up on the tier list (and I do believe he's went up), his public perception of him has improved, many don't consider him complete trash anymore, even if he has to work much harder for the win, it just makes winning sweeter with him BUT much more possible now than it was before.

Charizard will be my main through thick and thin with Pikachu as a secondary of mine, though I'd say both Pikachu and Robin are secondaries for me...Robin I mostly just toy around with and that's only because I love Awakening and Robin actually uses magic and not just 100% sword.

Edit: It's pretty exciting to see more competitors pick up Zard!
 
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SkyboundTerror

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Up throw almost makes it too easy now, and god, that f-air buff makes life much better. I still don't see the hype behind down throw; most follow-ups can be avoided because of Charizard's bad air speed unless you happen to be facing another heavy character.

Great buff.

Now buff his alternate color palettes.

Well, his Zard is pretty mediocre regardless.

Still hasn't figured him out yet.
Just watched some videos of him playing. He's still a little Charmander. Just give him some time to level up.
 

Steeler

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Yeah dthrow only really has guaranteed stuff at very low percents, like sub 30. But full hop nair is pretty great at catching any option besides double jump. Which you can still chase with autocancel nair and your sexy dash speed. Try jumping into people and Rock Smashing their airdodge after dthrow. You gonna have a great time, I guarantee it.

 

Shog

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I knew it, I knew that it is hard to follow up from Down Throw... It IS nice that you have some followups low percent to deal ~22% free damage but I would have liked it if Down Throw allowed us to Combo til 60, 70%
 

Swoops

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Just a note for combo stuff:

Uthrow > DJ forward Flare Blitz is a true combo at certain mid-low percents. Technically should do 30%, but I could've swore it was reading as 40% >.<. (Maybe I was pummeling accidentally.)

Haven't tested DI/character specific yet, but it's an awesome looking combo if you don't mind risking the 5% or loss of positioning.
 

Serell

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I love Uthrow being Charizards killthrow... but I just had the worst experience playing with the new changes.
Playing against Megaman, absolutely wrecking this guy, he's had a 160%, he puts a stickybomb on me, dont care, grab him and go for the finishing up throw. But right as my chaizard flies to the height of the sky box... stickybomb goes off, and I die at 40%, losing the match that was destined to be mine ;_;
 

Swamp Sensei

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Down Throw > Nair >Down Throw >Fair

This actually works pretty well on people.
 

Steeler

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Down Throw > Nair >Down Throw >Fair

This actually works pretty well on people.
Is that true combo? I am partial to dthrow > fair > jab. They both do 30%+ but I think your fair at the end is a better positional ender than jab if you get them off stage.
 

Swamp Sensei

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Is that true combo? I am partial to dthrow > fair > jab. They both do 30%+ but I think your fair at the end is a better positional ender than jab if you get them off stage.
Not a true combo.

But most people fall for it.
 
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