Charicific Valley • The Project: M Charizard General Discussion Thread

[NightShadow6]

Does anyone know if glide camping the ledge is fully invincible?

It is, you just have too cancel it at a certain time. Otherwise just waiting for you too glide into the ledge you'll lose invincibility.

 

[Heroofhatz]

It is, you just have too cancel it at a certain time. Otherwise just waiting for you too glide into the ledge you'll lose invincibility.

So you do have to cancel it? I always just angled it until he automatically regrabbed the ledge.

 

[InTimidator]

What should i do when i am coming down. What are some options to catch my opponent? Is Nair a good option?

 

[Heroofhatz]

What should i do when i am coming down. What are some options to catch my opponent? Is Nair a good option?

Nair is pretty safe and covers a lot, but timing and spacing it correctly can be tough and readable. Some other options you might want to consider is using B-reversing glide to augment you trajectory and get your opponent out from directly below you. Then you can use Heat wave to cover yourself as you land, and get some added momentum from the boost as well.

Generally my rule of thumb is if they are directly below me then I'll fast fall with Nair. Ever now and then if they come up to pressure me higher up I may use glide to change my direction sort of like Snake in brawl. If they are off to the side, I'll fall with heat wave. It's still punishable but people who aren't expecting it will usually get caught the first few times.

 

[JOE!]

If you're coming down, bair actually is the fastest hitbox you can throw below yourself

 

[~@~Tilde~@~]

Are there any techs which are Charizard specific that a charizard should know?

 

[Heroofhatz]

Are there any techs which are Charizard specific that a charizard should know?

Glide camping is a pretty good and unique one. Essentially falling off the ledge, immediately down b to go into a glide, then regrab the ledge. It's pretty safe if you do it correctly and sometimes people will get impatient and you can glide attack them instead of regrabbing. You can also waveland a glide attack off of a ledge drop, but the angle and timing can make it tricky on certain stages. You can actually waveland onto any flat surface with glide attack, and it's pretty good for platform cancels or just mixing up your recovery.

Another thing I know is Zard specific is if you have your back facing the ledge and you're right up next to it, you can press Neutral B and you'll fall to the ledge. Pretty good mixup sometimes but I don't find it terribly useful.

Other than those (though I'm almost certain I missed a few) just making sure you know how to use fly to continue up air strings and RAR-ing your Nair is all the basics you need.

 

[~@~Tilde~@~]

Thanks!

One thing I have trouble with is when I downthrow and the person just lies there. How can I address that?

 

[Heroofhatz]

Thanks!

One thing I have trouble with is when I downthrow and the person just lies there. How can I address that?

If there is not tech you can jab them off the ground before they can act with good timing (it's a little strict but not to bad once you learn it) then do what you wish with them. Same goes for when the tech in place (though be aware the timing is even more strict since they can hit you before you jab them if you don't react fast enough). When they directional tech is usually your best opportunity to tech chase with some more grabs until you get into a better position.

Though on the subject of grabs, Bthrow is actually your best throw. At low percents it's easily tech chaseable, and at high percents with incorrect DI or no DI you get a free Fair (possibly sourspot Fair to Dair). It can also throw up onto platforms, which you can waveland on and regrab. Dthrow is only preferable when you have your opponent pinned on a platform, since Dsmash will more than likely cover the whole thing (though then again, timing can be an issue especially off of a Neutral tech since they can hit you).

Hope that helped!

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

Dropping by to leave this here:

http://www.twitch.tv/saltyplayground
http://www.twitch.tv/germansmash

these two channels will be streaming "SiP", a P:M tournament in Germany with 70+ participants.
Saltyplayground will stream PM and Melee, Germansmash will stream PM and Brawl.

I'll be hoping to show a nice performance, gotta make sure to shake of some rust though!


For all you non europeans out there: It'll run from friday till sunday, Teams start in like 20 hours from now. (check my post for time reference^^)

all times in CEST:
Friday : 8pm PM teams ; 12pm PM Crewmatch: Team melee vs Team Brawl
Saturday: 11:30am: PM singles (Pools), 4pm: Brawl/Melee singles (simultaneous), 9pm: PM singles bracket

Edit: Forgot to post this: http://www.saltyplayground.de/event-profile-smash-im-pott/ <-- player introductions with pictures and all that fancy ****!
the majority of our Melee top10 will be in attendance, and alot of Top 10 Brawlers aswell! Tournament will have a rather high level!

I'll be looking forward to seeing some charizard hype in the stream!

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

need some help, not gonna make a thread about it
these are my mains, which of these characters can best handle zard?
Captain falcon, Ganon, lucario, mario, wario, mewtwo, sheik and wolf.

 

[Aposl]

Thanks!

One thing I have trouble with is when I downthrow and the person just lies there. How can I address that?

Jab

 

[NightShadow6]

So they should bring back being able to retain jumps after glide. Nerf upb or whatever, this would make onstage game so much more dynamic.

 

[Kuraudo]

So they should bring back being able to retain jumps after glide. Nerf upb or whatever, this would make onstage game so much more dynamic.

I rather like the way Charizard's Up B is right now. It's not often we have such a huge character that can effectively conquer the skies as Charizard can. It also plays into his typing as a part flying type Pokémon. His mobility is fantastic, his aerial game is great and makes for some devastating damage/combos/kills, and his ground game is equally really nice when you get the read just right.

Jumping after a glide WOULD be nice though. But this is circumvented (hopefully spelt that right) by the proper usage of Heat Wave to push you back towards the stage. The mobility you get horizontally off that is pretty awesome and doesn't waste your jumps.

His aerial game, IMO is pretty much perfect right now without being stupidly strong. Plays like a phys. natured Charizard.

 

[JOE!]

We aint Zard X tho

I just want to be able to use glide without beign skrewed by a stray 1% hit or something, you know?

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

need some help, not gonna make a thread about it
these are my mains, which of these characters can best handle zard?
Captain falcon, Ganon, lucario, mario, wario, mewtwo, sheik and wolf.

any valuable opinions from charizard players???

 

[metroid1117]

any valuable opinions from charizard players???

Personally, I think Sheik does very well against Charizard.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Falcon does pretty decent against Charizard too in my opinion. All that space that Charizard doesn't get.

Speaking of bad matchups. I find that sword users, or as I like to call them, Dragon Slayers, give Charizard a pretty tough time.

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

cool thanks.
and falcon gets ANNIHILATED by zard unless you're playin hax or darkrain.
zard's bitchass nairs and amazing juggling/edgeguarding game seal the deal

 

[Goast]

Sorry if this has been asked a billion times (getting caught up from the first release charizard was in lol) but what is charizards best OOS option. I prefer Nair or wavedash. Nair seems more defensive but wd seems good for his grab game.

 

[TensenROB]

How useful is a wavebounced side-b as opposed to a regular side-b? It gives a lot of horizontal momentum and a Charizard used it (maybe not wavebounced) against me to dodge a projectile. It also feels pretty safe out of a short hop though maybe even that is too easily punished.

 

[Goast]

<3 Charizards CC!!!

 

[metroid1117]

Sorry if this has been asked a billion times (getting caught up from the first release charizard was in lol) but what is charizards best OOS option. I prefer Nair or wavedash. Nair seems more defensive but wd seems good for his grab game.

Up+B has less hangtime afterwards and also has invincibility frames on start-up, so it can be used to escape pressure in certain situations. It works best when there's an upper platform to up+B onto so that you're not vulnerable for quite as long.

 

[Goast]

hmm upB oos. Glad I was a samus main in ssbm. Thanks for the tips!

 

[JOE!]

Got 9th/26 at my 1st tourney going all Zard :D

Edit:

Asked the general thread but got nothin, but anybody know why the Wing hitbox of Bair from brawl was removed?

 

[Goast]

Gratz and I have no idea

 

[JOE!]

Thanks, but yeah it just seems odd to me like... Without it, Bair is just a kinda inferior Nair except for speed.

 

[Scatz]

Some matches I happen to come across on youtube. Japan's Zard going against AmSa.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu3CZqKdSRI

 

[JOE!]

Hm, the more I play him in tourney, a bunch of little things become apparent to me about Zard...

Anyone else kinda wish he had like, just a smidge more air speed / acceleration?

 

[Rawkobo]

You'd think wings would help that.

A little acceleration in the air would be nice, considering how his dash speed on the ground is just wonderful. Idk, though.

 

[TriforceX5]

Charizard was my first main and he will be my main for life. There's too much to love about him, his playstyle, his design, I love everything about him!

yiscussion: do you think Charizard needs any buffs? any nerfs? or is he good where he is? I honestly feel Zard could use some buffs, but like just some pretty minor ones, just a couple of little tweaks. Maybe make his glide more useful onstage? or give him a bit more aerial mobility to get around projectiles easier? Both of these things might make him bonkers though so I dunno, what do you guys think?

 

[Mera Mera]

Hm, the more I play him in tourney, a bunch of little things become apparent to me about Zard...

Anyone else kinda wish he had like, just a smidge more air speed / acceleration?

His air speed and acceleration suck but it is his intended weakness. I suggest getting good at using glide, reverse glide, and momentum shenanigans with glide cancel to help being unpredictable when trying to get back to the ground safely. Also side B can be used to cover your landing and/or to launch you the other direction (if you do left B and then hold right, you go flying right when heatwave comes out).

Also to get those follow ups that might seem impossible at first, dash to get close first and then jump. When that isn't enough on it's own you can reverse nair for that far out tail hitbox, or you can glair.

I've been doing pretty well in tournaments, even winning a couple. I'm honestly starting to think this character is really underestimated. The only thing I have a really hard time with is the Falco match up, but that's more of a me thing than a Zard thing I think.

On a side note, Zard's neutral B can be used to force spacies to recover low, which typically leads to free dair kills. Don't forget this move and don't forget to angle it up if they look like they're trying to go over you. Neutral B will hit them out their side B and their up B so it's a pretty powerful option.

 

[JOE!]

His air speed and acceleration suck but it is his intended weakness. I suggest getting good at using glide, reverse glide, and momentum shenanigans with glide cancel to help being unpredictable when trying to get back to the ground safely. Also side B can be used to cover your landing and/or to launch you the other direction (if you do left B and then hold right, you go flying right when heatwave comes out).

I thought his large size and kinda floatiness was supposed to be a weakness?

Anywho, while glide can grant horizontal momentum, I -hate- the risk associated with using it as a trade of any kind could potentially screw you:

1. You cannot glide again
2. You lose your jumps
3. Combine those with bad natural air speed and you could pay -a lot- for attempting something other characters can do with relatively much, much less risk

Even if you aren't sent off stage, simply getting hit can lead to an unfortunate combo since you then lose a means to escape with another jump / reverse glide or something.

Defense aside, on the offense it is also just kinda annoying when you are trying to space something mid-air, but just cannot follow up even at lower % because you lack that little bit of airspeed to get another hit, making you have to go to the ground again to dash which while fast, still takes time that the opponent can use to their advantage.

Like, it's not that big a deal as you said: Charizard does have a good amount of options to circumvent this flaw. However, when it shows up it is annoyingly noticeable to me that if his air speed went from like... 3/10 to 3.5/10 it'd just be groovy, you know?





That and make his glide just once per air time and not spend all his jumps........

 

[Mera Mera]

I thought his large size and kinda floatiness was supposed to be a weakness?.

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with you about it being a hard weakness to deal with.

I would definitely consider Zard's horizontal air mobility to be his main weakness. Being floaty isn't purely a weakness to be fair, and imo being big mostly just sucks when it comes to projectiles.

The glide nerf was harsh but it's hard to think of a better alternative. Zard's combo and edgeguard game are top notch, and his neutral game isn't half bad either. Even with the glide nerf, Zard can recover high very well, and he recovers low perfectly fine. If he could recover high and still have jumps afterwards, then characters that are bad at juggling would basically have not options for dealing with Zard's recovery.

As for having trouble with follow ups, I assure you Zard can work around most things. Glair covers your ability to not reach horizontally when your too far from the ground. Also falling back down and sharking with upsmash or something would work. Just cause they have options cause you "ended" your combo, doesn't mean any of those options are good.

As for using glide, I do not use it when they are actually close to me unless I'm near a ledge to grab or planning on using glair. Instead, use it when you're high up and they commit (typically by jumping) to go after you. After they leave the ground, they'll have a hard time following your changed momentum. Hell, even if they don't leave the ground, if you make them work for it by changing your momentum, most people just kinda seem to let you land and or let their guard down and get thrown off by or hit by the avoid lower tail part of nair.

 

[JOE!]

All true. Guess it's just something I need to get used to with him.

Though, I am still eternally salty for the glide nerf I feel like there is some compromise somewhere for it given that other "Glide" characters either keep their jumps or even retain more horizontal recovery options on top of more air speed than him.

 

[metroid1117]

Hi all. I just wanted to let people know that I'm always lurking this forum even though I don't always participate in discussion. I may be opening a can of worms with this post, but with regards to the glide discussion, however, I just wanted to point out that this is something that the PMBR has discussed (pre- and post-2.5) and it's hard to set "rules" for characters with glides (Pit, MK, and Charizard) because each character's glide contributes differently to that character.

- Pit's glide is an important tool for his entire moveset, allowing him mobility in his neutral game, combo game, and recovery.
- MK's glide is simply an extension of his up+B and has many restrictions, since he cannot (to my knowledge, when I was testing 2.5) grab the edge backwards, B-reverse the ending animation, nor cancel the glide into other attacks except for glide attack.
- Although Charizard's glide attack (glair) has a fair amount of speed and power, Charizard's glide as a standalone option (even pre-2.5) is most useful as a recovery tool since the cooldown from canceling is too long for it to be effectively utilized as a combo tool.

By far, Pit's glide has the least restrictions out of the three and MK's glide has the most restrictions. Charizard's can be viewed as an intermediate between the two, but because he is such a heavy character, his up+B covers a fair amount of vertical distance, and glair is fast and lunges his body forward, it's typically not hard for Charizard to, at the very least, make it back onto the stage even when the current glide uses up all of his jumps. The only standardization I would push for between the three glides is a "glide timer" (specific to each character) that limits the max duration of the glide such that they cannot excessively glide long distances (blast zone to the other side of the stage or, in the more extreme case, blast zone to blast zone), but again, there's not really a good way to put a set of "standards" on all three glides because each character utilizes them in a different way.

 

[JOE!]

Very true, I just hate that while Zard can make it back sure, if he is so much as touched he is kinda boned whereas MK still can jump + Nado/DrillRush/Dimensional Cape/and even Shuttle Loop -again-. Yes, he is a lot lighter than Zard, but also a fraction of the size.

But I'm just johning at this point over it, and should just aim to make it so I'm not in these positions in the first place.


As for positive Zard stuff: I've been playing with Dair more and more and realize just how awesome the move is on a character with extra jumps. Usmash -> Dairis pretty much an auto-combo from super low%, that can lead to another Dair for a clean 50% if you're quick on say, a platform or something.

(looking at my frame data thread for the %'s reminds me that I need to update / finish Zard's thread as well as Ivy's once I get some time....)

 

[Scatz]

I think the best way is to see Glide as a kill option if they were to make trades not favorable for Zard. Considering that others can use theirs for combos, Zard typically uses it to create space for landing or end a combo to kill (in the few videos I've seen).

 

[LavaLatte]

As for positive Zard stuff: I've been playing with Dair more and more and realize just how awesome the move is on a character with extra jumps. Usmash -> Dairis pretty much an auto-combo from super low%, that can lead to another Dair for a clean 50% if you're quick on say, a platform or something.

(looking at my frame data thread for the %'s reminds me that I need to update / finish Zard's thread as well as Ivy's once I get some time....)

Love love love dair. The question is, how often at low %s would you prefer the dair over a juggling aerial, or say another up-smash? Usually I try to continue the juggle as long as possible - letting them touch the ground sometimes spells the end of the combo.

 

[BluntedMask]

Dair is one of zards best aerials as it is falcon's stomp bascially.

At any % it will start something if you hit it, although I would opt for a different choice if the opponent is at around 70-80%.

If you do dair at that point they can tech it, since Zard has a good fast fall you should be able to react to it.
(If they don't tech it though an upair will hit them if you are quick enough)

If you don't use dair then you can either upb/sideb or go for a sourspot Upair/fair and attempt to extend the combo.